Glenn Beck Discusses the Mahdi With Pastor Hagee
He definitely was quoting from portions of my book and several of my references. I’m glad that the information is getting out there. The saddest part is that Hagee is so close and yet so far. He does not make the Mahdi Antichrist connection, and he also ascribes to the bogus pre-trib rapture doctrine. Lord Have Mercy on us. The bottom line is that even if there is a pre-trib rapture, one thing is sure: The evidence for such is almost non-existent Biblically. The doctrine of the rapture is based on massive assumptions and in my opinion wishful thinking. And so even if it is true, we should be teaching believers to prepare for the worst and hope for the best. This is only reasonable. But to be giving believers potentially false hopes of a pre-trib rapture is in my opinion extremely dangerous. If you have the time, E-mail Glenn Beck’s producers and remind them that they cited my book and research and ask them to have me on the show. My contact is menosabe@hotmail.com
October 13th, 2007 at 10:58 am
For Hagee to miss all that and not even pause to consider he is wrong, shows how deep that tradition goes with many in the church.
The idea that there is no rapture to them is insane. I wonder what will happen when they go through it and they find that no rapture has happened?
October 13th, 2007 at 10:59 am
I saw that last night as well. I agree with you on the Hagee not seeing the Mahdi- Antichrist connection, but he did see other things which I agree.
Now I disagree with you on the pre-trib Rapture. Now I am one that believes in a pre-tribulation rapture, but only those who are born again and who robes are white and are not practicing sin will make it. Does this mean we might not be faced with some persecution? No we might have to die like many Christians over the centuries and currently across seas.
You are right we need to be prepared for the days ahead.
I love you brother and the info you give on the website and in your books about The Antichrist and Madhi are right on!
October 13th, 2007 at 11:31 am
Bo,
I am fine with someone believing in a pre-trib rapture. My problem is that the teachers act as though the case for such is clear whereas it is in my opinion far from it. As such the hordes of believers are not even considering the idea of ever having to go through the trib. Now, if I am wrong, big deal, I get raptured, but if the rapture does not happen before the advent of the AC? Then you must admit that this will severely challenge or even shatter the faith of hundreds of thousands of Western believers. And if their teachers were wrong regrading the rapture, then what else might they have gotten wrong? Many will deny that the AC is the Ac becuase, afterall, it cannot be he as th erapture has not happened yet. Right? I can see the devil creeping in in such a situation. That is why it is extremely dangerous in my opinion to teach this as if it is fact. If someone believe its, teach it is as if it is a “hopefully”. This is responsible. My heart is for the sheep. I also believe that these things are very real and that we will see them somewhat sooner than later. As such these are not mere intellectual discsussions but relevant to the potential destiny of millions of souls.
October 13th, 2007 at 11:36 am
Joel,
I believe that two of the most important messages in your book are the
Mahdi-Antichrist connection and the pre-trib rapture myth. The church
should take solemn heed of these two vitally important messages if she
is not to be led down the path to deception!
Thanks again for your book. I have read it, and plan to reread it soon!
October 13th, 2007 at 12:15 pm
I hate to have to say it but it is my opinion that often times these peoples blindness to this is more a matter of pride that causes them to willfully overlook what is plainly before them. After speaking so long and openly, after publishing so many books it cannot be easy to admit that you were wrong.
Im amazed that Hagee overlooked the Muslim Jesus false prophet connection but more so he was to quick to deny that antichrist will fulfill what is expected of Imam Mahdi in regards to distributing wealth.
Dan 11:24 “In a time of tranquility he will enter the richest {parts} of the realm, and he will accomplish what his fathers never did, nor his ancestors; he will distribute plunder, booty and possessions among them, and he will devise his schemes against strongholds, but {only} for a time
Dan 11:38 “But instead he will honor a god of fortresses, a god whom his fathers did not know; he will honor {him} with gold, silver, costly stones and treasures.
Dan 11:39 “He will take action against the strongest of fortresses with {the help of} a foreign god; he will give great honor to those who acknowledge {him} and will cause them to rule over the many, and will parcel out land for a price.
I suppose its possible they read your book and quoted from it, although Joel I have to say your book represents in my mind a revealing of the hard truths about the connections of the Islamic Messiah and the biblical person of the Antichrist in such a fashion that anyone who has truly looked into this would have to admit the parallels are far beyond uncanny. You did an excellent job of taking that information from the Suras and Hadith and showing how they compare to what the biblical prophets have said in such a way that someone who has never wondered on this topic before could easily make the connection. I really think you nailed it and would love to see you have the opportunity to share this in the same spotlight as people like Lindsey and Hagee. You have my support.
October 13th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Bo,
First, maybe Joel can clue me in to what I am doing which sends posts before I am done! Anyway, I am a main stream evangelical, but also have come to reject Pre-trib as unsupported by the Bible. Joel is quite right: Hope for the best, and plan for the worst. If there is not a Pre-trib Rapture, milions of Christians wil be confused, and scared. They may wonder what else they have been told by Chrisitan leaders that is wrong. This doubt will make them vulnerable to caving in to the A.C.’s brilliant strategies.
Since I can not figure out how to attach my paper to these posts, I am loading in my entire paper on Post-trib, Pre-wrath Rapture here for your info. The point I want to make to you is that no one suggested this to me, and I just copied them. IIt just jumped out at me from some scripture, and I started researching, until I disagreed with the entire Pre-trib position. So was it a revelation? I will not say, except to note that God may be revealing this to many main stream evangelicals, to prepare the way.
THE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE: TRUTH OR DARE?
D.J.Thornley
April 2007
A winter’s dawn along the Sierras. As the rose sunlight brushed along the mountains, Sam Ortega marveled again at how the clouds built up on the western slope of the peaks when a storm was brewing over toward the coast. It was as if there was an invisible shield keeping them from tumbling over the top and into his high desert valley. It was as if the mountains had caught a chill, and pulled the gray blankets up to their chin. He turtled his head into his Gore-Tex windbreaker as a little mule-kick of wind flogged loose sand along the ground, and gripped his coffee mug tighter to absorb its warmth against the chill.
He mused that the wicked wind being juxtaposed with the splendid sunrise was a true distillation of desert life. He had surprised himself by growing fond of the moody lady. But this was the harsh game she played with you: “Love me too much, and you will be punished;” an apt metaphor for those who had loved earthly pleasures on Shakespeare’s mortal coil, more than God.
Coffee was a rare treat the last couple of years. He had scored half a pound at the barter market two weeks ago, trading it for some of their wedding china. Why anyone would want wedding china at this point was beyond him, but people take comfort from odd things in troubled times.
He felt so low last night, he indulged himself in the pre-dawn darkness by brewing a pot. Then he slipped out to also drink in his favorite view. He prayed Rosa would be cheered by the coffee too, and maybe the oppressive mood she felt of late would lift a bit.
For the thousandth time he reflected on the events of the last three years. It was like a terrifying movie, but you could not get up and walk out when it got to be too much. Rosa wanted to walk out of this nightmarish time, and it was ever more difficult to keep her concern for the kids from overwhelming her.
The media outlets had all sorts of theories for the unprecedented, once unimaginable, catastrophes that had started roughly three years ago. The freak-show weather was regularly attributed to global warming. Hot, cold, blizzards, hurricanes; it was all allegedly due to mankind. As to the earthquakes, pandemics, and the asteroid, there was more imagination applied to why all this was happening, but most media guessers studiously avoided talking about God.
Early on many conservative Christian leaders had declared the troubles were the final “birth pangs” which would usher in the Biblical Tribulation, the final seven years of earth’s history. They confidently encouraged their congregations to “Lift up your heads, for your redemption grows nigh.”
“Nigh.” Sam sometimes chafed at the way church leaders clung to that old English usage from the King James Bible. It seemed like Christian Club language to him, promising secrets only the in crowd knew, which he thought was not much different than the Magisterium of the Catholic Church they left. Back then, when they heard the gospel in plain language, plainly explained to them for the first time as a young couple, it was the clarity, not the mystery, which attracted them.
Their new life in Christ was so different, and so exciting, they devoured all the literature they could. His reading included many books on the Tribulation period. He was never sure this was a positive interest. In fact he had a slightly guilty feeling about the excitement he felt when anticipating events which would wipe out much of the Earth’s population. It seemed a little detached from reality at the time, so he rationalized that his excitement was the same harmless, vicarious, thrill you get watching a disaster movie.
Anyway, after reading through the popular “End Times” books, he was confident he understood what would happen leading up to that period. First would come the birth pangs — increased wars, pestilence and earthquakes. Then Christ would come to “Rapture” the church to heaven before, literally, all Hell broke loose. In other words, both the dead and the living in Christ would instantly receive new, eternal bodies, as Christ returned to secretly whisk the faithful Christians into heaven. There they would have a ring side seat, as God increasingly rained his wrath down for seven years on an unbelieving world.
During this time Satan would be allowed to foist his counterfeit to Christ, the Antichrist, on the world. This charismatic, brilliant, and ingenious deliverer, probably from Rome, would rule the world as a series of disasters overwhelmed existing governments, and caused those governments to turn to him as their last hope.
Antichrist would succeed to a point, as for three and a half years he would solve the Israeli-Arab wars, and bring peace and prosperity to the world. Half way through the seven years he would violate the peace treaty with Israel, have his “False Prophet” impose an all-encompassing economic system – featuring the legendary mark of 666 – on the world, and preside over increasing wars and a crumbling Earth as God sent a series of final judgments down.
At the end, God would draw the Antichrist’s world-wide armies onto the Israeli plains at Megiddo, and Christ would return with the earlier-raptured Christians to crush Satan’s people, and install God’s people as rulers over the world.
That was the way it was supposed to go, and all the Christians Sam knew never questioned that supposed sequence. Sure, there were some in evangelical circles who said Jesus had never promised a pre-Tribulation Rapture, but they were discreetly pushed to the side of polite conversation.
But as world events developed during the last three years, it became increasingly clear that the Tribulation was upon the Earth, and no Christians had been raptured. Quite the opposite. They were on Earth and increasingly suffered –to the uncomprehending mind – inexplicable hatred.
Some of it was from within the Church. There were the apostate theological liberals who made common cause with Isa and the Mahdi, and against the conservative church. Other anger welled up from the conservative church itself, from people who were so stunned the Rapture had not happened, that in their frustration they had lashed out at all Christian leaders.
In fact, many had turned to Islam. After the confusion and betrayal they felt from within the church, they were prone to be deceived by the Mahdi’s apparently bona-fide miracles, and his glib explanation for everything.
No one in evangelical circles was sure when the Tribulation began. The rough consensus, though, was it was probably when the Israelis used nuclear tipped penetrating bombs to root out the Iranian underground nuclear weapon facilities. The Muslim world melted down in rage, and the Western democracies reflexively condemned Israel, though Iran had given gave every signal that its nuke program was meant to destroy Israel, and the West too.
After the attack, it seemed the Islamic world was supernaturally energized. They were enraged at the Israelis, but also at the entire non-Muslim world for reacting to the attack, beyond the routine U.N. palaver.
Within weeks, a small blizzard of allegedly random attacks against Western targets paralyzed many countries. To Sam, they did not seem too random. As a former Army Special Forces soldier, he knew these attacks were too frequent, too alike, and too complex to do on the wing.
His experience after several years of top secret counter terror operations was that these attacks were planned for years. In fact the Iranians seemed bent on provoking an Israeli attack, and also the follow on reaction to the attack. Their loopy President regularly proclaimed that the 12th Imam –also known as the Mahdi - would only come to win the world for Islam if there was general mayhem. Naturally Iran saw itself as the executive agent for mid-wifing the mayhem, and they seemed to have succeeded.
In the U.S. a group of Islamist terrorists with assault rifles attacked the Mall of America in Minneapolis. Nearly 200 shoppers were killed or wounded before SWAT teams were able to bring the assailants down. Allegedly copycat assaults at other malls and similar venues destroyed the Christmas retail sales season, starting the slide toward the first depression since the 1920s.
Other attacks across Europe over the ensuing months had the EU governments scrambling to diffuse tensions with their large Muslim populations.
The mood grew more ominous when Islamists overthrew the government in Pakistan, and India put its nuclear forces on alert. The Indian mystics declared Kahli the high goddess was performing her war dance, signaling the end of the world.
Two weeks later the moderate Turkish government fell to the radicals. The one Muslim country friendly with Israel suddenly threatened her existence, and the specter of imminent nuclear war had the diplomats scrambling.
Then events which, to Sam, seemed spiritually driven, became explicitly supernatural. During the annual Muslim Hajj in Mecca a man claimed he was the long-awaited Muslim savior, the Mahdi. The Mecca police were accustomed to such lunatics and moved in quickly to arrest him. When they did, all were instantly struck dead. After some panic the crowds silently listened in rapt attention as he explained himself, and went into an adoring frenzy as he started healing all manner of sickness.
His “Illumination” in Mecca appeared well planned, as a world-class public relations blitz immediately swung into action. Within a week there were few who had not heard of him. The Muslim world was increasingly enraptured as he performed many miracles for television audiences.
A large, well oiled organization was instantly on scene to manage the Mahdi phenomenon. They reported that the Mahdi was born to a poor Assyrian family near the ancient city of Nimrud, Iraq. The (now) village was named after Nimrod, the great hunter of Biblical fame, and builder of the Tower of Babel. Nimrod was a villain in the Bible, but a hero in Arab traditions.
As implausible as it seemed, his followers insisted he could trace his lineage to both Nimrod and Abraham. Leading Imams further certified that Allah had revealed that Mahdi’s mother was directly descended from Mohammed. The Mahdi had all the genetics to be an instant Islamic superstar, and he was.
His father had grown rich after the Mahdi’s birth (some reporters found evidence it was from arms and drug brokerage) and moved his family to a large estate near Bergama (formerly Pergamum), Turkey. The Mahdi took his early schooling there. He was a prodigy and at age 12 entered the University of Istanbul, thereafter winning top honors and degrees at Istanbul, the University of Cairo, Harvard and Oxford. He was a spell- binding orator in various languages, charismatic, if reserved, and always a smashing hit with women (though he never dated) and men alike.
After ten hugely lucrative years as a commodities and equities trader, he joined the Turkish diplomatic corps, rising quickly through the ranks and winning admirers throughout the world. He then unaccountably disappeared for three years, before declaring himself the Mahdi in Mecca. His efficient and very secretive organization showed he had not wasted those three years.
Whether his reported lineage to Abraham and Mohammed was true was immaterial, as the Muslim Umma accepted it as true, and the Mahdi cleverly stoked their fervor for his leadership by brilliant oratory and carefully choreographed miracles. One thing was certain, though, he had little need of body guards. Any persons wishing him ill would drop dead the minute they approached.
Suddenly the old Muslim schisms were forgotten, and nearly all of the majority Muslim countries and 1.5 billion Muslims were fervently united; they unquestioningly believed that, as their Imams were preaching, the entire world lay at their doorstep. The Mahdi’s followers were as aggressive as they were loyal, and most Muslim country governments fell to the Mahdi’s followers with mind-numbing speed.
Still, in evangelical circles the Mahdi was seen as a “type” of Antichrist, but not the real deal. Most evangelical leaders blandly assured their congregations that this was merely a run up to the battle of Gog and Magog, where Muslim countries would attack Israel. They confidently predicted that God would destroy those attackers and probably Rapture his church at that time. Thereafter the European Antichrist would be revealed, as the Tribulation began.
Sam bitterly reflected that these leaders should have been alert to what was really underway, and preparing their congregations for the persecution and physical want to come.
No European Antichrist came. Instead the world was transfixed as, during a bizarre celestial disturbance, a man floated to earth at Mecca, announcing he was Jesus Christ, returned to earth. Over Mecca the sky had turned a series of brilliant colors. Photos and video camera pieces showed there were dozens of classic-looking UFOs zipping through the atmosphere, and suddenly the man appeared, floating down from a brilliant light to the Kaaba. “Isa” explained the UFOs as simply the “holy ones,” or angels, the Bible said would accompany him to earth. He declared himself to be the Messiah, who was the hope of Christian and Jew alike.
Without giving the world any time to process this shock, Isa turned Christianity on its head by announcing the Bible was significantly corrupted, that he was not crucified, and that he never claimed he was the son of God. He affirmed Mohammed’s claims and faith. Isa, simply put, was a Muslim. He swore allegiance to the Mahdi.
Isa was as kind faced and soft spoken as a Hollywood caricature of a do-gooder. He quoted Bible verses liberally (if selectively) and seemed the essence of the Sunday school Jesus; all gentleness and reason.
The Mahdi was different, in many ways the opposite. He was multi-lingually glib, but not flip, and definitely not chatty. He was oddly handsome, but with a stern, and to Sam, a frightening appearance. Sam, who had known many violent men during his years in Army Special Forces, had the impression that a volcano of hate and fury churned just beneath the suave, urbane patina.
As Mahdi and Isa conducted various signs and wonders, the Christian church was shaken to its foundations. In short order nearly all the liberal denominations officially accepted Isa and, to Sam’s greater shock, many conservative leaders did too. Soon after Isa’s appearance, and as if on cue, the Pope and his allies were forced out of the Vatican by apostate Cardinals. Isa was invited to take the throne of Saint Peter, to begin the great ecumenical work he promised.
Isa had a strange view of ecumenicalism. The façade of kindness never broke down, but those who disagreed with him or the Mahdi would disappear with regularity, and Isa became increasingly adamant that his Christian followers observe Muslim ritual.
Mahdi and Isa talked up peace at every chance, but the only peace the world saw was a seven-year treaty the Mahdi arranged between Israel and the Arab states. Otherwise, it seemed the Second Horseman (war) and Third Horseman (pestilence) of the Apocalypse ran rampant.
Mahdi denounced the violence every time he was in front of a camera. He regretted, however, that various countries were provoking the peaceful Umma “by not recognizing the rights of the Muslim people to practice the Muslim faith.” And so for the countries of the world the choice was war, or a Vichy Peace solution.
Throughout Europe Mahdi fanatics were bringing governments to a halt with ceaseless attacks and demands for instituting Sharia law. Prostitutes and libertines of all color were slaughtered. In fact, anyone who openly expressed skepticism about Mahdi or Isa was soon killed. Headless bodies lay in the European streets every morning, and the police did nothing. These events, coupled with Mahdi’s alliance of oil-producing countries, gave him all the leverage he needed to swing most of Europe to his side.
The Bible in 2 Thessalonians 2:11 had predicted the effectiveness of the “powerful delusion” Antichrist would present, but Sam was disgusted at the speed with which the media and political left came to accept the Mahdi and the Islamist offensive. It seemed the Left should have nothing in common with the Islamists, yet they rarely resisted the Jihadist wave, in fact generally acquiescing to the assault on resisting Christians.
In Israel, there was significant resistance from thousands of young Christian Jews, and from the ones Christians knew as the “two witnesses.” Al Jezeera denounced these young Christians, and called the two called the “demons of Daijal.” It appeared in fact that many Jews were not buying Isa’s claims and were unexpectedly accepting the real Jesus as the Messiah.
Within months of the Mahdi’s advent most countries in the world which were not already Muslim, came to an accommodation with him. Some would not, and it did not go well for them.
Indian authorities brutally fought their indigenous Muslim population’s demand that they capitulate to Islam, but finally succumbed when several of the Hindu-dominated cities disappeared in mushroom-cloud blasts. The speculation was that the nuclear weapons were snuck in from Pakistan via third countries, on trucks and planes. It did not matter, as the new Muslim government took power. The Hindus were rounded up as the Western media were forced out of the country.
Throughout the turmoil, Mahdi carefully chose his words and never threatened anyone –at least publicly.
President Terry Clark insisted America welcomed the unexpected treaty Mahdi arranged between Israel and the Arab world (Isa, as a Jew, was instrumental in bringing the Israelis around), and stated she was willing to discuss the Mahdi’s idea of starting a world-wide process to cede sovereign powers to the U.N. But this was for public affairs purposes, as she did not want to panic the American people. The truth was that she was terrified by the Mahdi’s back channel threats. Yet she would not buckle under — until July 4th.
The irony of that “Independence Day” was not lost on Clark afterwards. That day nuclear weapons on container ships went off in Norfolk, Houston, and San Francisco. Jihadist web sites claimed responsibility, saying Norfolk was chosen as an infidel naval center, Houston as the major throughput port of imported oil for America’s pampered society, and San Francisco was chosen as a hated den of sodomites. The jihadis promised that there were many more bombs waiting to go off.
Clark’s national security staff knew full well the Mahdi was directly behind the attacks. The Joint Chiefs of Staff wanted to strike back, but where? Mahdi represented no country, and did not have a capitol. Besides, Clark lacked the stomach for the Joint Chief’s apocalyptic proposals.
After a fourth bomb went off in Miami, she and Congress crumbled. Not only were four cities devastated, but the world wide oil embargo Mahdi could muster against the U.S. would crush the already badly depressed economy. Finally, she was well aware that over the previous 18 months millions of Mahdi followers were flowing into Canada and Mexico – the former now Muslim in all but name, and the latter a member of Hugo Chavez’ virulently anti-American alliance. Clark knew the U.S. could kill untold Muslim soldiers, but still they would come. What was the use of resisting?
Clark agreed with the Mahdi that Sharia law would have co-equal status with the existing U.S. law, and agreed to accept a three-year plan to cede sovereignty to the U.N. – which was already under Mahdi’s sway.
Several states –generally in the South and Midwest — seceded from the union. Clark lacked the will to oppose the move, especially since entire military bases were moving over to these states. More ominously, Mahdi warned her that was a matter for his people to address. It looked like George Washington’s vision at Valley Forge would be fulfilled.
In California Sam and Rosa were, like most of their Christian friends, completely off balance after these events began. All of this was far different from the eschatological events they had been told to expect. There was no Rapture. Faithful Christians were increasingly endangered, especially those who labeled Isa as an imposter and false prophet.
Fairly early on it seemed so clear to Sam that the Antichrist was on earth and winning. Still, many Christian leaders were so emotionally and psychologically invested in the Pre-tribulation theology that they could not adjust to the radically different developments. But to most Christians the accepted wisdom was dreadfully wrong, and many were terrified and unsure what other doctrines they had been taught were wrong. Whether out of fear, apostasy, or anger at the existing Christian leaders, it seemed a strong majority were going over to Isa.
As the economy had fallen apart and awful pandemics swept the cities, Sam and Rosa found a truck, loaded up as much as they could, and moved to an empty house belonging to Jewish friends in the high desert. There was abundant underground water there for growing a garden, and a strong community of Christians and survivalists had set up enough of a barter market to keep Sam’s family healthy, though always a bit hungry.
They prayed almost constantly about every little thing, as anything less and they would have, as it says in Luke 21:26, fainted from terror. They thanked God for their safety, and especially that they were not on the East Coast. An asteroid had appeared (out of nowhere according to astrophysicists) and hit the Atlantic edge of Spain. Unbelievably massive tidal waves wiped out most Atlantic coastal areas for miles inland. This, on top of the nearly routine 9.0 to 10.0 earth quakes in many parts of the world, left people literally dying in dread of the next disaster. According to psychologists their hearts were simply giving up in the face of the constant fear.
Now though, things were getting even worse. Rosa and Sam had decided to follow friends on a desperate trip to someplace in the rebel states. Some place where sheriff’s deputies were not issuing summonses to appear before the new Sharia councils to answer for anti-Islamic speech or actions. Someplace where fellow Christians, capitulating to the Sharia councils, would not turn you in. Someplace where they, and others like them, might escape the new world-wide economic system slipping into place.
This system included what could only be the “Mark of the Beast” described in the Bible. Muslims had, from the beginning of Mahdi’s ascendancy, been ecstatically placing the serpentine Arabic symbol for Allah and the Shahada (pledge to Allah) on their forehead. Those in Muslim countries, who wished to work and shop, were being given the option to put it on their right hand or forehead.
Eschatologists had warned this would happen during the Tribulation, but lately assumed it would be a high-tech microchip. Instead, it was just a tattoo. Muslims had generally been prohibited from having tattoos before Mahdi, but he was changing Muslim and non-Muslim laws and times. (Yes, times. Sam knew they had to leave California when the Sharia Counsel said even that Christian worship still allowed had to occur on Friday, the Muslim Sabbath.)
Sam broke out of his thoughts and thanked God for the beautiful morning. He prayed for his family’s provision, and that they might be used for God’s purpose. But the storm clouds on the mountains were portents that the worst was yet to come. He had read Revelation’s admonition for the Saints to live in “patient endurance.” This, too, he prayed for, as he turned to go prepare his family for the move inland.
What is this all about?
This fictional narrative above is neither a prediction nor prophecy. I do nonetheless believe it to be Biblically supported, though I am in a distinct minority. Indeed, concepts like the End Times, Tribulation, and Satan’s representative, the Antichrist, walking the Earth are little more than fantasy to most Americans, and most of the world. In fact a George Barna Group poll released in early March 2007 found that only 33% of Republicans and 17% of Democrats believe Satan is a real spiritual entity. This paper is therefore in every essential nonsense to the majority, because it presupposes that the book of Revelation and related Old and New Testament prophecies of the End Times are literal, and to all be fulfilled. This not an apologetic to swing those who do not agree with this prophetic foundation. Instead, I write only to argue one point: I am convinced that the popular eschatological (theology of the End Times) position of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is not scripturally supported.
I do this hesitantly, as this is a minority position among American Christians. In fact all the popular writings about the End Times assume a Pre-Tribulation (“Pre-trib”) Rapture. Most of the great American conservative theologians and preachers, like Dwight Pentacost and Chuck Smith today, teach a Pre-trib view. In fact, my favorite Bible commentator, Charles Ryrie, discounts all other positions. But I have come to believe differently, and, more importantly, believe it is not a minor point.
I was not prompted to write by any person or because of any other work than the Bible itself. One morning, as I, like Sam, looked out on the Sierras, I was struck by the Olivet Discourse in Mathew 24. As discussed later, there Jesus spoke of the Tribulation, where he stated his angels would gather up (rapture) his people, but only after the Tribulation. I knew that Pre-trib teachers believe that in this passage Christ was only prophesying to the Jews who would remain on Earth after a Pre-trib Rapture. But the “last trumpet” part bothered me, as the scriptures underlying a Pre-Trib Rapture appeared to speak of the same trumpet. So I felt lead to start studying the issue more intently. This paper is the result. I am convinced now that the Pre-trib Rapture position is wrong.
Some Christian friends I have shared this with have been gently dismissive, while others report that they have had their own, similar doubts. However, the majority are noncommittal and generally cleave to the view that the distinction is unimportant. After all, they say, if there is a Pre-trib Rapture, other beliefs are irrelevant. If there is not a Pre-trib Rapture, then the presumption is that, at the time you realize it to be the case, you adjust to the changed reality. To me, this last position is counter intuitive.
1 Corinthians 14:8 says “[I]f the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle?” Just so. The Tribulation will be a time of horrific catastrophe; a time when the bravest will feint in fear. Mathew 24:22 teaches that “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.” This will be a time of testing like no other for mankind. For this reason Revelation repeatedly warns the Saints that they will need “patient endurance,” and the concept of patience and long suffering is arguably the supreme attribute of God’s people in Revelation.
A largely untested American church – especially one which expects a “Get-out-of the-Tribulation-free card,” will not be prepared for a time of vicious persecution and unheard of calamity. Think of it. A man who is not expecting to go to war will not train for war. Finding himself suddenly thrust into the hottest part of the battle, he will be wholly unequal to the fight.
Jesus taught that in the Tribulation, “[F]alse Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.” This time will feature a great spiritual deception like no other (represented by Mahdi and Isa in my narrative). Christians unexpectedly finding themselves in the Tribulation will probably strongly question virtually everything they were taught by the same Christian leaders who insisted all believers would be taken from the earth in a Pre-trib Rapture. A disillusioned and unsure church would be no match for the strong deception and persecution that Satan will perpetrate on the world through Antichrist.
In sum, I was not intent on bucking the prevailing eschatological mainstream simply to win attention or make some esoteric point; this all came quite unexpectedly to me. I do not wish to “treat the prophesies with contempt.” 1 Thessalonians 5:20. Instead, I want to honor them by letting them speak for themselves. I will let the reader decide if I have mistaken indigestion for burning revelation. God’s desire for people has always been that they use their free will to search his Word and decide for themselves.
I fear that, if those of us who believe in a Post-trib Rapture are correct, the stakes and exposure are frighteningly high for an unprepared church. I simply ask that the reader be like the Bereans: “Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.” Acts 17:11.
Pre-Tribulation Position
The mainstream, Pre-trib position is well known, even by many non-Christians, having been promulgated by popular books like Hal Lindsey’s The Late Great Planet Earth, and Jerry Jenkins’ and Tim Lehay’s blockbuster Left Behind series. Per the Pre-trib belief, the Second Coming of Christ will occur in stages. First, He will remove all Christians from the Earth, to protect them. This is called “The Rapture.” The term comes from the Latin verb raptare, and the Greek word harpizo, both meaning “to be caught up” or “to be snatched up.” Jesus will “snatch us” out of harm’s way.
There are two primary supporting verses to this Rapture:
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17: “According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”
1 Corinthians 15:51-55: “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.”
After the Rapture, God will allow the Antichrist to reign for seven years, during which time increasing punishments will rain down on the unbelieving people remaining behind. Those who become Christians during this time will mostly be martyred, but in any event will reign over the Earth with Jesus when he returns with the raptured and resurrected Saints at Armageddon. At that time the believing Jews will be raptured to meet Jesus in the air, and the wicked will be raptured and transported for punishment at Armageddon.
The main verse used to support a Pre-trib Rapture is Revelation 3:10, where Jesus says to the Church at Philadelphia “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.” Advocates believe the “trial” spoken of here is the Tribulation, and the passage refers to the entire body of faithful Christians before the End Times.
Further, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, says “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” The presumption underlying the Pre-trib position is that the Tribulation is the “wrath” spoken of in this context.
Where did this belief come from? Some have argued the Pre-trib belief is fairly modern, being first announced by theologian J.N. Darby around 1830, and based on the alleged prophetic vision of a 15-year old Scottish girl named Margaret Macdonald. However there is also, perhaps better, evidence that a Greek Orthodox theologian named Ephraem, who died before 400 A.D., provided the first explicit argument for this view. Some scholars claim it is not the work of Ephraem, but of a later theologian who was influenced by him, and that it was actually written about 700 A.D. Regardless, I will not argue this either way; rather, this paper will address scriptural arguments with scripture, and I will leave it to the reader to decide, based on scriptural evidence.
Evidence against a Pre-Tribulation Rapture
The sequence
The Book of Revelation and other prominent End Times prophecies, including those of Ezekiel and Daniel, are rife with symbology and difficult passages. They are not nearly as misty as Nostradamus’ infamous quatrains (nor as open to free-form interpretation), but they do make it difficult to clearly understand the sequence and exact events of the Tribulation period. Yet there is one clear, concise, and clearly sequenced exposition of End Times events. That revelation comes from the Lord himself in the Olivet Discourse, contained in Mathew 24, in the more truncated Mark 13 recital, and an even shorter treatment in Luke. Because Mathew 24 is the more explicit account, that is the one I will key on:
1”Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2″Do you see all these things?” he asked. “I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3”As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
4”Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,[a]’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9″Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15″So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.
26″So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29″Immediately after the distress of those days
” ‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[c]
30″At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
32″Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door.”
The Olivet Discourse is the single, only “soup to nuts” overview of End Times events. The Lord provided it after his closest disciples explicitly asked to understand those times. Who but Jesus Christ himself, had the understanding to pull all the prophecies together? Jesus alone had a continuous connection with God and understanding beyond anything the prophets could imagine. Of course, then, he would be the natural source for a clear exposition of the End Times, which helps put all the other prophecies in context. This is why he says in the Discourse “So be on your guard, I have told you everything ahead of time.” Mark 13:23.
I have not read a single source which denies this passage is an overview of the Tribulation, or that verse 31 in fact describes an other-than-Pre-trib rapture. The key to understanding the prophetic sweep of the Discourse is its instigating question. The disciples reacted to Jesus prophesy that Herod’s great Temple would be utterly destroyed. Understanding Jesus was talking of apocalyptic happenings, they beseeched him for more information. He provided them two prophesies; one was near, and one far. Watch how Luke lays everything out.
When the Disciples ask Jesus, “[W]hen will these things happen?,” he replies: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. When you hear of wars and revolutions, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away.” Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven. But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you.” Luke. 21:8.
I bolded some language to show that twice he warns them he is speaking of different time frames. Before the great earthquakes, etc. (the birth pangs), they will persecute you. This “you” seems very personal; it is for the early church.
After describing their persecution, as happened to the early Jewish believers, he then, without indicating a time shift, segues directly into prophesying the Romans’ destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem in 70 A.D: “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations.” Lk. 21:20-23.
From Pentecost after Jesus ascended to heaven, to 70 A.D., the Jewish hierarchy was persecuting the early church – who were nearly all Jews in Jerusalem.
Thus far, Jesus first talked about the ultimate, way off prophetic symbols, then brought them to the nearer prophecy, and then gave them another frank time shift signal: “Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” This takes them from the nearer prophecy, when the Romans came in during 70 A.D., “until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled,” which some commentators say happened in 1967 after Israel retook Jerusalem from the Arabs, and other commentators say only Jesus can do this when he removes the Muslims from the Temple Mount.
In either event, the last segue signals Jesus has again moved to far off prophecy (End Times), where he says: “”There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
This is the Cliff Notes version of the Tribulation, with Jesus signaling he is coming for his church at the end, after the fearful Tribulation.
Who is this for?
Yet the Pre-trib argument has become that the Olivet Discourse only describes those times for the Jews who are not raptured at the beginning of the Tribulation, because they did not believe until after the Rapture. The support for this point is generally that Mathew 24:16-20 evidently applies to Jews in Israel, and thus Matthew 24 is only for Jews. This is a curious, if not mystifying argument.
This idea, taken to its logical conclusion, would consign virtually the entire New Testament to the Jews only. There were arguably no Gentile Christians while Christ lived on Earth. The entire set of four gospels is set among Jewish people. The same theme largely follows for most of the New Testament. Of all the Biblical writers, only one, Luke, was a Gentile.
Is the New Testament only for Jews? If not, how do you delineate which of the overwhelming number of Jewish references are only for Jews? Keep this approach, and you violate the frequent New Testament admonition against separating the Jews from the Gentiles (e.g., Romans 15:5-13), and perform a logical violence on its history. Of course not one bit of the Bible is meant for Jews alone. God surely chose the Jews as a harbinger of his care for all mankind, and as his instrument throughout history, but the Bible is meant for all mankind. Regardless, the Discourse itself disproves any idea that it is solely for the Jew.
Matthew 24:9 resoundingly excludes non-Christian Jews, by saying “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.” The Jews have been peculiarly (I assert supernaturally) and relentlessly hated nearly everywhere they have gone. But not because of Jesus Christ. Moreover, the Jews have perhaps been the single most resistant group to the Gospel message. Unarguably, this verse is a reference to all Christians.
Other key markers in the Discourse disprove that Jesus meant it for Jews alone.
Jesus concludes the Discourse by again signaling its universality: “What I say to you [the Disciples], I say to everyone [the church throughout the church age]: ‘Watch.” No, these warnings are for all the Christians, and so, therefore, is the Discourse.
Of course Jesus did predict in Luke the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish Diaspora, but you can not read this passage in any context but relating to the Jews in the meaning that the Jewish church would be swept up with the tragedy of all Israel’s destruction. Like all of Jesus’ teachings, the Diaspora discussion was meant for his followers, whether or not in the larger sweep of Jewish history.
Conversely, as cited above Revelation 3:10 is used as one of the secondary passages supporting a Pre-trib Rapture. There Jesus says to the Church at Philadelphia “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.” However, look at this passage in context:
7″To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. 13He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
Note the highlighted words, which lend a rather heavy Jewish flavor to the text. So is this passage contradictorily only for Jews, yet talking about a Pre-trib Rapture for all Christians? It illustrates the absurdity of chopping parts of Mathew 24 off from the rest of Mathew to say it applies to Jews only.
Recapping, then, the Olivet Discourse is assuredly for Christians, not Jewish unbelievers, and is meant to prepare his church to endure to the end. Jesus promises “He who stands to the end will be saved.” Mt. 24:13. But what other evidence than the Discourse is there against a Pre-trib stance?
An abominable clue.
When the Angel Gabriel appeared on one occasion to the Prophet Daniel, he revealed an End Times calendar, which is a key to understanding the seven years of the Tribulation. In Daniel 7:24-27, the prophet was told:
“Seventy ’sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. “Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ’sevens,’ and sixty-two ’sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ’sevens,’ the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one ’seven.’ In the middle of the ’seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”
Briefly, prophecy scholars agree that Daniel’s “weeks” meant groups of seven years and that 69 of those years/weeks ended at Jesus Christ’s crucifixion (“the Anointed One will be cut off”). “He will confirm a covenant with many for one seven” is agreed to refer to the Antichrist, who will have power during the seven-year Tribulation. At the mid-point (after three and a half years), he will demand worship for himself within the rebuilt Jewish temple. This “abomination that causes desolation” is the same one Jesus references from Daniel in Mathew 24:15.
Jesus of course assumed his followers would be there at the time of the abomination, for he says “”So when you see” the abomination. At the least, Jesus was signaling the Christians will be in the Tribulation –at least to the half way mark, when the abomination occurs.
In the same way, in 2 Thessalonians 2:2-4, Paul said that the Christians would be on Earth to see the abomination that causes desolation:
“Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord [meaning the Rapture and wrath /judgment] has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.”
The Pre-trib position is clear that the Tribulation can only begin and the Antichrist can only be revealed when the Christians (and their cooperative work with the Holy Spirit) are removed from the earth. But Jesus and Paul could not be more explicit that the Christians will be here, at a minimum, half way through Daniel’s last seven.
Last means last.
Jesus in Mathew 24:29-31says that “Immediately after the distress of those days (Tribulation) . . . At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.” This passage says there will be a trumpet call, which presumably all the world will hear, after all or most (depending on the theory) of the Tribulation.
Now compare this with the first key passage supporting the Pre-trib Rapture, where Paul says: “According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” 1 Thess. 4:15-17
The key here is that first Paul says “According to the Lord’s own word.” What word is that? Paul was clearly referring to the Gospel accounts which were obviously circulating among the early church as he wrote. The only time Jesus spoke of a trumpet and a rapture was the Olivet discourse, and so the trumpet Paul speaks of can only be the trumpet Jesus proclaimed.
The second key Pre-trib passage is where Paul writes “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.” 1 Cor 15:51-55.
Again, Paul’s single point of reference at the time was the Gospel accounts from Jesus himself. This was Messiah’s only mention of a trumpet and rapture.
Moreover, note Paul says “the last trumpet.” If this passage supports a Pre-trib Rapture, you have to adopt the nonsensical presumption that there is a “last trumpet” at the beginning of the Tribulation, then another “last trumpet” later, each announcing a different Rapture. No, last means last; i.e., after the Tribulation is underway.
It is also profitable to note that the term “last” makes you wonder what trumpet precedes it? If the Rapture occurs unexpectedly at the beginning of the Tribulation, what trumpet was before it? Scripture provides zero evidence of a precedent trumpet to the alleged Pre-trib trumpet.
As an aside, John in Revelation speaks of multiple trumpets, seven to be exact, which announce judgments. The seventh trumpet has a note of finality, as Revelation 11:15 states: “The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: ‘The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever.’” That dispositive language certainly suggests this trumpet is the trumpet Jesus said would come at the Rapture.
Yet, after the last of the seven comes, John says: “I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed.” Rev. 15:1. Why would God punish anything if the kingdom was already established? There is a strong argument that this seventh trumpet is the trumpet Jesus spoke of, and at which time God’s elect will be raptured up and kept in a safe place while the seven last bowl judgments of wrath are rained down on those who rejected God’s final offer of salvation through most of the Tribulation. (This would also explain the meaning of Revelation 3:10.)
As further proof, Revelation 10:6-7 provides a fascinating clue that the last of seven trumpets is distinctive from all the other judgment milestones: “There will be no more delay! But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.” The prophecy is especially portentous here. The Lord is both rewarding those who “patiently endured” because there is no more delay. Additionally some great, different, and mysterious capstone is to be applied the events to that point. What mystery is that?
First, the wrath of God, spoken of by the Old Testament prophets as the “Day of the Lord.” (e.g., Joel), may constitute part of the “mystery” “announced to the prophets” This wrath is seen by some as the end act of the Tribulation. In other words, the Tribulation up to the seventh trumpet would be seen as the final birth pangs Christ predicted, and now the wrath of God will be brought on the earth via the bowl judgments. There may be more to the “mystery” though. If, as is discussed below, Christians are not exempt from the birth pangs, but are exempt from the wrath, then this is the natural time for the Rapture: “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.” 1 Cor 15:51. If this is the mystery John prophesied, it makes sense. If that mystery, intimately related to the End Times, was revealed to Paul, then logically enough that mystery would also be present in John’s revelation of the End Times.
Ironically, Hal Lindsey, a strong Pre-trib advocate, explains the 1 Cor 15:51-55 trumpet by revealing that during the time in the wilderness, Moses would warn the Hebrew nation to break camp by using seven spaced trumpet blasts. On the seventh, they knew it was time to move. Yet Lindsey never seems to connect the historical record of seven trumpets he discusses with the seven trumpets discussed in Revelation 15:1. It seems he should have, and I believe that the last of the seven trumpets is indeed the order to move, and is the last trumpet Jesus spoke of.
First means first.
Paul explains that, at Messiah’s second coming, “[T]he Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” 1 Thess. 4:15-17 He reemphasis his point by prophesying “For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.” 1 Cor 15:51-55.
Under the Pre-trib view, the dead Christians will be resurrected at the beginning of the Tribulation, and return with Jesus at the Second Coming. However, Revelation 20, talking of the immediate aftermath to the Second Coming, says:
“I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.” Rev 20:4-6.
Well, this is a problem. If there was already a resurrection before the Tribulation, how can this resurrection of Tribulation martyrs be the “first resurrection.” First means first. It does no good to say this is as compared to the resurrection of those who did not accept Christ as savior, one thousand years later (Rev.20:11-15), because that does not distinguish the “first resurrection” from the supposed Pre-trib resurrection.
This interpretation of only a Post-trib resurrection of believers comports with Jewish understanding during Jesus’ time on Earth – a belief he did not contradict. In John 11: 23 the Lord, speaking of Martha’s brother Lazarus, says to Martha: “Your brother will rise again.” She answers, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” This language can not square with a Pre-trib Rapture.
There are two other salient points. First, it seems illogical that God would resurrect Saints who had been dead for thousands of years, take them to heaven with immortal bodies, wait the seven years of the Tribulation, and then bring them back to earth to reign with the next batch of resurrected Saints. Unarguably God’s ways are not our ways, but the Pre-trib resurrection idea leaves you in the position of second guessing God’s clear statement in scripture that the Post-trib resurrection would be the first.
Second, the Lord accords the Tribulation Saints the highest honor for having resisted the Antichrist and False Prophet. As discussed more fully below, it simply begs belief that the Lord would take his church out of the way before the Tribulation, and then a group of people who enter the Tribulation as unbelievers or, at best, lukewarm Christians who miss the Rapture, would rouse themselves to resist Satan and win greater honor than those who were faithful enough to be raptured in the first place.
Saints means Saints.
A frequent Pre-trib argument is that God signals the Pre-trib Rapture in Revelation by talking of the churches throughout the first three chapters of Revelation, then not at all. In this theory, Revelation 3:10 is key, where it says “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.” By this line of argument, what this means is that the messages to the churches in Revelation 1 through 3 represents church ages, from Christ’s ascension, to the just before the Tribulation. The Church in Philadelphia of Revelation 3:10 represents the faithful church which is Raptured, and the last church mentioned, the Church in Laodicea (Rev. 3:12-19) represents the lukewarm, left behind church.
Thereafter, the argument asserts, when Revelation speaks of “Saints” or “the Elect,” it refers to the fact that, once again, God has brought his Jewish children to the center of his salvational message. I believe this point stretches credulity to the breaking point.
Plainly Revelation 1-3 has an overarching, important message to the church. Since there were many churches at the time John wrote than just these few, clearly it was an allegorical message, discussing the common favorable and unfavorable attributes of churches. In this sense it is like a Book of Proverbs for churches.
Indeed, the single, most strident commendation to the churches is to those who suffer and patiently endure, which is a gift that is “ours in Jesus.” Rev. 1:9. Naturally this can be applied to the frequent persecutions of believers through the church age, but its position in Revelation would seem to mean the chapters specifically are preparing all the churches for the Tribulation. The concept is so common in these first chapters, it is worthwhile to review its occurrences.
Jesus commends the Church of Ephesus for having “persevered” and for having “endured hardships for [Jesus’]name.” Rev.2:3.
To the Church of Smyrna Jesus writes “I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.” Rev 2:9-11. Not only does the message to Smyrna blur the bright line Pre-trib advocates want to keep between the church and Jews, but a pattern begins to emerge, that all the churches can expect persecution.
To the church in Pergamum he says “These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword. I know where you live—where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city—where Satan lives.” Rev. 2:12-13. Again He commends faithfulness in the face of persecution. Jesus also says to them “To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.” Rev. 2:17. Manna sustained the Jews through their time of testing, and they endured. This would seem an appropriate message to a church destined for the Tribulation.
To the Church of Thyatira he says “I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first.” Rev. 2:19. Further he says “Only hold on to what you have until I come. To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— ‘He will rule them with an iron scepter.’” Rev. 2:25-27. This is an important passage, because it connects one of the most commended church types to the very end; i.e., after the Tribulation. Jesus will only “rule them (the world) with an iron scepter” after his Second Coming, which is after the end of the Tribulation. Jesus is saying hold on, or endure patiently, “to the end,” when he returns to rule. There can not be any reasonable insertion of a seven year hiatus in heaven here. Neither can this progression of discussions be said to merely discuss the various stages of the church age, if here Messiah tells this church to endure un
October 13th, 2007 at 12:25 pm
Thanks El Gallo. Good stuff. Not sure on the post issue. I delete your partials.
October 13th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
I think Joel’s last assessment on the Rapture seems quite
logical.
We are taught Pre-Trib in my Church and although the scripture pointing to it is somewhat vague I admit- What scripture is brought out to support it does make sense to me.
But better err on the side of being cautious I agree.
All that really matters is our own personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
I think these discussions are great and will keep us “on our toes” so to speak. There will probably come a time when the Christians won’t be able to communicate like we are doing now.
You already see the attack on the Radio Broadcasters.
October 13th, 2007 at 2:46 pm
I am doing my own commentary on Revelation and i am finding and concluding that the traditional set up of revelation by traditionalist is wrong.
One of them is that the church is mentioned throughout Revelation.
I have also found a reasonable explanations for two Resurrections mentioned in Revelation. Which is an issue i have not seen addressed by the Traditional set up.
I have found issues in Revelation that seemed to have been over looked, for whatever reason.
October 13th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
The traditionalist view claims that because John was told “Come up here…” in Rev 4 this means John is a type of the Church who –in John–is caught up to heaven before the endtime events begin. I disagree. John represents……John!; and his cathing up tp heaven was to be shown the “behind the scenes” reasons for the events that would transpire upon the earth during the last days. He was shown the end times from heavens perspective, and made to understand God’s judgements on the earth. Through what he was shown, we are to understand that our primary role in the endtimes is to overcome until the end–which justifies God in giving us a kingdom with his Son–who overcame till the end– a kingdom which shall never end and shall never pass away. We are-in reality- going to witness the Church’s finest hour—loving Jesus even unto death–empowered by the Spirit of the Father.
You are all right–it does seem tradition can so blind one that when they read the bible–they are “seeing” thier traditional view instead of the very texts–that contradict the aforementioned–before thier very own eyes.
Kite
October 13th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
Hello, I just found this website a few days ago, and I’m glad that I did.
In the church that mainly grew up in, and still am a member, pre-trib theology is not the only thing taught. I was taught that the church would probably be going through the tribulation and to prepare. If there is a rapture beforehand, great, but we should be prepared to endure hardships and persecutions. I thank God for that.
Like others have said, I am afraid for those who believe that the church will be raptured first, because they will not be ready to face what is to come.
October 13th, 2007 at 4:48 pm
I too saw Pastor Hagee on Glenn Beck’s show last night. I was pleased that Glenn found your work Joel. However, I would have been more pleased if Pastor Hagee would have made some bold statements tying the AC with the Mahdi. It also saddens me when someone like Hagee proclaims pre-tribulation theology when there is a literal wealth of Scripture that points in the other direction. What I notice most is the attempt to justify pre-trib with a few verses while leaving out a multitude of others that prepare the Church for tribulation.
The very idea that we’re gone after God has spent so much time in Scripture preparing the Church is ridiculous. Why even have the discussion anymore if we’re out of here. Hey, I’d like to go early! But this isn’t consistent with what the word of God is saying. The Saints are the Saints. This dispensational replacement theology is setting the Church up for major confusion. Maybe Pastor Hagee should meet someone with the calling to prepare God’s Church for tribulation before he claims that the Church won’t be here. God has lit in me a calling to prepare His Church and I won’t stop until I can’t go anymore.
The Scriptures that prepare the Church for the AC weren’t written so we could all look back at the Earth and say “I told you so.” They’re written so the Church would be prepared. That’s God’s call on my heart. Most of my interaction with the Lord comes down to a point of being prepared to stand in the midst of a storm. Pre-tribulation robs me of my calling. It violates me spiritually and rubs my spirit wrong.
God doesn’t raise standard bearers and standard bearing Churches so that He can take them out of the storm when the standard is needed the most. Pre-tribulation is a doctrine of convenience that removes the lighthouse in the midst of the storm of the convenience of the lighthouse itself.
October 13th, 2007 at 4:54 pm
Oh Ya, Joel…I actually mentioned your book to Glenn Beck over the air once. It’s been at least a year and a half since I spoke with him over the phone. So I know he’s at least heard of you and the book. However, I don’t know if he’ll remember seeing as how he interacts with so much media. I’ll contact him again this week via e’mail and I’ll also try to get back into his program to recommend an interview between the two of you.
October 13th, 2007 at 5:25 pm
Thank you for eveyrone here, that even though I may disagree on some points the Rapture viewpoint here, I appreciate the loving attitude of everyone here.
You know If I am wrong I willing to change. For years I believed in a Western Europeon Antichrist, but I have believed in the last ten years of an Eastern/Muslim Antichrist so opinions can change and as I stated I am willing to change an opinion as to what the Lord says. And sometimes it might not be the most popular thing, but then again we should do what the Lord wants and not what we want.
LOVE YOU ALL!
October 13th, 2007 at 5:46 pm
The real evilness of this false doctrine will manifest itself when ‘a falling away’ occurs. 2THES. 2-3. When the rapture fails to materialize the faith of many will probrably be shaken, as they have been so heavily indoctrinated with this false wish. One can only guess at the sneering contempt the world will hurl at Christianity in general when the handwriting appears on the wall. I hope these people do this in ignorance, but it makes me wonder-sadly.
October 13th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
Jeremiah,
If by some chance the Church does get raptured Pre-Trib I bet if you
pray to stay and fullfill your calling that Christ may grant you that honor.
There would be still be many Christians- non practicing or mislead or people coming to Christ which could use a lighthouse such as yourself.
And what exactly will the Pre-Tribs not be ready for? Do you think that they don’t study exactly what is suppose to happen during the Tribulation just because they think that by God’s grace and compassion they may avoid it?
We are suppose to be prepared for Christ to come back at anytime. Not just at the end of the Tribulation. So if we all keep that in mind- Pre-trib or not- then whenever it happens we will be ready.
October 13th, 2007 at 6:44 pm
jeremiah, I’ve been giving Glenn info on the book too. In fact about 2 or 3 weeks ago I wrote him an Insider email that was a little PR kit for Joel , telling Glenn that he should have Joel on his show.
On the Insider forum I made a post Islam’s Mahdi is Bible’s Antichrist, and I try to revive it occasionally.
I was disappointed when he said on tv that his staff compiled the list when it’s obvious he’s reading it word for word.
But I think it’s exciting that these ideas are getting out there… especially on CNN. Pretty remarkable, isn’t it?
October 13th, 2007 at 6:59 pm
OT.. i stumbled on an interesting Mahdi reference, involving Hitler:
http://www.matthiaskuentzel.de/contents/hitlers-legacy-islamic-antisemitism-and-the-impact-of-the-muslim-brotherhood
Quote:
Radio Zeesen was a success not only in Cairo; it made an impact in Tehran as well. One of its regular listeners was a certain Ruhollah Khomeini. When in the winter of 1938 the 36-year-old Khomeini returned to the Iranian city of Qom from Iraq he “had brought with him a radio receiver set made by the British company Pye … The radio proved a good buy… Many mullahs would gather at his home, often on the terrace, in the evenings to listen to Radio Berlin and the BBC”, writes his biographer Amir Taheri. Even the German consulate in Tehran was surprised by the success of this propaganda. “Throughout the country spiritual leaders are coming out and saying ‘that the twelfth Imam has been sent into the world by God in the form of Adolf Hitler’” we learn from a report to Berlin in February 1941″
October 13th, 2007 at 8:06 pm
Lisa,
I bet Jeremiah would be very concerned if God were to grant him the “honor” of being around after a Rapture of the Church. Quite simply, nobody repents and is saved during the period of wrath unleashed by God.
Revelation 9:20
The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk.
Revelation 9:21
Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.
Revelation 16:9
They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.
Revelation 16:11
and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.
Jeremiah would TRULY have his work cut out for him.
October 13th, 2007 at 8:14 pm
Vince,
Amazing find. Amazing.
October 13th, 2007 at 9:36 pm
Vince-
A very good article. Amazing indeed. I saw the mention of The Protocols of Zion in the article. Do you know some “ministries” use that book as facts to show that Jews are plotting to take over the world and that The Antichrist will be a Jew? That doesn’t even support the Bible as The Antichrist will be a Gentile and not a Jew.
October 13th, 2007 at 10:54 pm
Believe me, I already have my work cut out for me. I don’t really think I’d like to add a post - rapture stint on Earth to the load. However, that doesn’t change my heart for the Church. But I do plan on being with the Church when it does make its exit. You know what? The Lord has probably, no definitely put on my heart the need for discerning the false prophet from the real Lord Jesus more than anything. Out of all the subjects I’ve looked at I can feel God’s heart about that stronger than anything. The Lord Jesus (Yeshua) desperately wants His leaders to educate the Church and bring them into a relationship with Jesus Christ that so passes what we settle for that this False Prophet Isa would be called out immediately. Certainly, many will call him out for what he is. But my biggest burden is seeing a Church caught up in who they think Jesus is rather than actually getting to know Him that they fall for the eye candy of the False Prophet. And if there’s no pre-tribulation rapture, where would that put all the pre-tribers when Isa showed up? I would say that it would offer a fair amount of confusion to the Church that can be avoided by preaching relationship with Christ. As far as understanding the hearts of pre-tribulationists…I grew up around that theology and I know for certain that everyone of them that I’ve ever had a serious conversation with has studied intently with passion the very things they hope to avoid through rapture. I’ve also seen many of them have to concede to the facts that much of the “evidence” for such leaves many un-winnable arguments from silence in some cases. I’ve actually watched died in the wool Pre-trib pastors put the brakes on making this theology into a law because they realized that “its” going on right now, right in front of our very eyes. And at the end of the day, I love them and we work together to accomplish the same mission whether we leave early or later. Bless the Lord for He is good.
October 13th, 2007 at 11:00 pm
Hi Vince,
Ya it was obvious wasn’t it. I’ve read that so many times it was like I could quote it before Glenn even said the words. That’s good to know how much you’ve done. I wasn’t sure if anyone had gotten as far as I once did. I even thought about becoming an “insider” just to get this message to him. I think that all his non-insider e’mail goes through a screen before it even gets to him. So who knows if the e’mail I sent him tonight will even be read by him. But I do know how to get through on the radio show so I’m going to give that a shot. I was thinking that I would even send Glenn a copy of Joel’s book. If we make enough noise I think we’ll eventually get through because Lord knows Joel could do a much better job than Pastor Hagee (God love him).
October 13th, 2007 at 11:53 pm
Jeremiah,
Not to get off topic, but after reading that you feel you have a special calling during the Tribulation, as I also feel about myself, I’d like to ask if the thought of being one of the 144000 has ever crossed your brain? If this isn’t something you want to discuss on here, if you even want to discuss it, I give Joel permission to give you my email address if you want it.
Like the debate between pre/post trib rapture, there’s confusion as to whether or not the 144000 are actually Jewish or if they are a multitude of people who can be traced back to the Jews. Thoughts anyone?
October 14th, 2007 at 1:56 am
I’m not going to be so hard on Pastor Hagee. Perhaps this is the first time he received the specific list of characteristics of the Mahdi.
I’m sure he would carefully review the evidence before coming to a conclusion and I doubt that he would do that while on-air on CNN.
I’m sure he’s carefully and prayfully reviewing it now though.
He seemed shocked and surprised the Mahdi was going to be around for 7 years.. come on a white house and make a deal with a Jewish priest.
I dont think Glenn handled the False Prophet part very well… the way he asked the question was worded very poorly and I dont think Hagee really understood what he was being asked.
I dont know too much about Hagee, but I’m very imprssed by him and I have hope that he’ll give the info a good review.
October 14th, 2007 at 6:44 am
Vince,
Please know that I am also very greatful for Pastor Hagee. He is an ardent supporter of Israel and I’ll stand with him anyday. Its not easy being interviewed on National TV nor would I expect him to make any Mahdi Antichtrist connection on TV. My only sadness over the interview is the rapture issue. But I Bless God for Hagee.
October 14th, 2007 at 8:00 am
Cody,
Please go back and re-read any reference to the 144,000 of Revelation chapters 7 and 14 and point out to me where the Bible says that they are evangelists…
I await your response.
October 14th, 2007 at 9:59 am
Perdonado,
I never once said anything about the 144000 being evangelists.
Thanks.
October 14th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
I too feel that the pre-trib rapture is going to cause a falling away. You constantly hear guys like Van Impe and his ilk stating that “if you don’t believe in the rapture you don’t believe your bible”. That’s just creepy! So what happens when the rapture doesn’t happen, and the AC and false prophet are on the scene? Well the obvious conclusion of many people will be that Christianity is wrong.
These are the two most prominent passages people use to justify the rapture, but Paul is clearly talking about the resurrection.
1 Thessalonians 4:15According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
1 Corinthians 15:51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Notice the similarities in the two passages that are describing the exact same thing, and in the Corinthians verse he gives us the timing, at the LAST trumpet. Which is easily found in Revelation 11:15.
October 14th, 2007 at 12:45 pm
Cody,
Sorry for the misunderstanding. Please forgive me.
I got yours and Lisa’s comments intermixed.
October 14th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
I found a good sermon that Hagee made. I think it’s a few years old. I’m not sure how old it is.
It’s about the fact that Islam is at war against the West
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_bcyqu52a4
October 14th, 2007 at 3:03 pm
No problem Perdonado.
October 14th, 2007 at 6:05 pm
For Joel or El Gallo-
Would I be wrong to assume that either of you are Pre-Wrath?
October 14th, 2007 at 6:08 pm
I used to be, but eventually with more study, became Post-trib.
October 14th, 2007 at 6:59 pm
Gotham,
I know that I was not asked, but I took the liberty to jump in. I hope you don’t mind. I go with the Pre-Wrath position.
We are told in the Bible that we are not exempt from tribulation. And, we are also told we are not appointed to God’s wrath. I can give a list of scriptures if you desire.
October 14th, 2007 at 7:08 pm
Perdonado,
I used to be convinced by this argument as well. But the way that I understand it now is that God’s Wrath is poured out on a farily specific geographical region rather than on the entire earth. God’s full wrath is really not quite as global as we might think. It would take a bit to explain this, but it is pretty defendable. This is why God tells His people to get out, lest they suffer God’s judgments with the wicked. This would not be possible unless God’s wrath had some geographical limitations.
So while it is possible to get around the Tribulation Wrath issue, it is not possible for me to get around the simple fact that the catching up occurs when Jesus returns.
October 14th, 2007 at 7:59 pm
Joel,
I assume you are equating the “trumpet” of 1 Thess 4 with the “seventh trumpet” of Revelation. Correct? If not, then I would assume that you are equating the return of Christ where we meet Him in the clouds with the return of Christ when He returns to the earth for the Day of Judgment.
There is a pretty powerful argument for the trumpet of Thess 4:
October 14th, 2007 at 8:39 pm
I too once was Pre-trib, then went pre-wrath, and now I am also Post Trib. That is because the more I look into the specifics of the bible, i see two Resurrections.
1. At the end of the Ottoman Empire. We are now in the 1,000 years (inbetween the seventh and eigth empire). That those that died during the Ottoman Empire were given the gift of life after death in the form of the first Ressurrection.
2. The second one is when Christ returns, at the end of Gog/Magog. He will call the dead up first (those that did not partake in the first ressurrection) that would be during the “1,000″ and before the Ottoman Empire. Then the living will be caught up next. To return with Christ, before his judgment.
October 14th, 2007 at 11:13 pm
Perdonado-
Thanks for jumping in. About a dozen years ago I moved from Pre-Trib to Pre-Wrath.
October 14th, 2007 at 11:34 pm
Joel-
It took time to move away from Walvood, Pentacost, and LaHaye to Rosenthal, Van Kampen, and Cooper.
Please give me your recommendation for authors on Post-Trib and perhaps website or two.
I’m grateful for your book and Livingston’s Christianity and Islam as both have moved me away from a Euro-centric view.
October 15th, 2007 at 5:36 am
Post-trib:
Quick and easy read:
The Secret Rapture: Is It Scriptural?
More Detail:
Gundry
Ladd:
Ladd
October 15th, 2007 at 10:30 am
Joel: I sent a Beck an “Insider Email” (these alledgedly go directly to him or his producers). I gave him your email address.
I have no idea if he reads the email, I never been acknoweldged.
October 15th, 2007 at 11:36 am
TO ALL
I am neither post, mid or pre trib, I do not know. but this I do know
if we are allowed to go threw the trib it will not be fun. people will faint from fear. they will do unspeakable things to your family while they make you watch. They will torture you until you deny Christ you will not be allowed to die. they will literally torture you till you are an breath away from death then they will give you a shot, give you an hour to rest then start again. they will slowly rip your nails off. THE HORROR WILL BE SO BAD YOUR MIND CANNOT FATHOM IT***NOW.
Just a reminder for those that WANT TO GO THREW TRIBULATIONS.
I personally don’t wish to go threw that, but in the end of all things Jesus is lord and he knows what, when, were and how. SO BE IT.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
REV 7: 14 these are they that came out of the great tribulation, and washed there robes and made them white with the blood of the lamb.
15 Ther for are they before the throne of god and serve him day and night in his temple and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
allso reference verse 9
just a reminder for those that make it threw the tribulation.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:41 pm
Pastor Hagee tells us exactly how one so wise can miss something so obvious in this video around 3m20s.
Beck asks how did everyone miss the rebirth of Israel.
Hagee responds stating they missed it because of the time and theological environment they were reared in.
We should not judge Hagee, but we can discuss and disagree with his view.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
Also, I was not really accusing anyone of this…just stating how easy it is for us, myself included, to judge others without stopping first to think it through.
Sorry if my statement on judgement seemed judgemental, hehe.
October 15th, 2007 at 3:17 pm
Dear Lee,
There is nothing in your scenario backed up with prophecy. However, your comments are appreciated. I do not blame you Lee, since you were probably raised to be one of the sheep who was taught not to question what you were taught or to compare it with Scripture.
You give such a precise and specific details without taking into account that what your mind or the minds of others have proposed is based on fiction and a lie. There is no truth apart from the will of God. And the will of God is revealed in Scripture that states that we are not to go past what is written.
More than likely, the saints that Revelations speaks of will be the Jews who will finally convert to Christianity and who will realize that they are dealing with the end of times tribulation period. Being Jews as well as Christian, may be the combination that will mark them for persecution and some of them for martyrdom. The last to be converted to Christianity will be the Jews. All indications are that their conversion will occur during the tribulation period, since there is nothing is Scripture that God would remove the veil over their eyes before then. Jesus is Lord.
October 15th, 2007 at 5:17 pm
Nobleday
I don’t know what i said to stir you up like that? i was just making a statement of fact and if your so naive as to assume if you are still
here during the great tribulation that you will not undergo persecution and torture and will loose you your life.
then you are sadly mistaken. Look around the world nobleday there is torture and martyrdom going on RIGHT NOW do you think for one second you are better then they. and do you think the holocaust was fiction or the genocide of Armenia and or what the Russians did in Romania the things that were done to them where horrific nobleday do you think when the antichrist rules for seven years that’s its going to be the same or better. wake up. and don’t presume I’m ignorant of the bible
and fallow every wind of doctrine that comes my way. You insult me! I have my own beliefs but in my life life I’ve learned everyone has there opinion and that sir is exactly what it is. I do my best to understand the rest will be under grace. If you want to argue scripture that’s fine I can argue both ways. but what good is it but the truth of the matter is we are to be leading people to Christ. nobleday I’m sorry I posted the comment. I have learned my lesson.
October 15th, 2007 at 9:12 pm
Lee, this is my take on Rev 7, which you quoted. I am one who believes that Revelation is talking about the Ottoman Empire and Gog and Magog (eighth empire). So i do believe that many verses in Revelation is talking about the past and the future.
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” This is in reference to the last chapter, the fifth seal.
Rev 6:9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
Rev 6:10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
Rev 6:11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
Those that have been killed during the Ottoman Empire and their numbers have been completed. Judgment will come upon them. One of the judgments that exist to this day is the nation of Israel. Israel is a reminder to the Muslim world of their defeat, the loss of their empire to the West, and the nation of Israel existence is in consequence of the Ottomans treatment of the Christians and Israel will be the consequence of the eighth empire, which will be defeated because of their treatment of Israel. God creates the sore and how we treat it will be the legacy of us.
Christ was a sore to the Jewish leaders. The Church was the sore to the Ottoman Empire, and Israel is the sore to the Muslim world and all three suffered in the judgment of God.
“Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” The English wording gives the impression that God is in need of salvation. The people from the Ottoman Empire are singing this song, God has delivered them and gave them the privilege of being with him, instead of in the grave.
“Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” The proper translation should be “God is our Salvation who sites on the throne, and to the Lamb. It is by God they have salvation, deliverance does not go to God, God sends forth deliverance, so, therefore, God is our salvation.
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. “For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat;for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”As mentioned above, these are the one’s killed under the fifth seal, their numbers have been complete and they now serve as priest to God.
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (Rev. 20:4,6)
Those that are killed and have partake in the first resurrection are with Christ and are now serving as his priesthood. These people served God and did not compromise themselves to the Islamic religion, they did not sell out their brothers and sisters, they held on to their faith and when time came for their renunciation, they held firm and proclaimed Christ to their persecutor’s and held their faith, even unto death, they loved not their life and loved Christ more.
The world made them hungry, made them thirsty, the sun took all moisture from their bodies and the heat baked them, but now they are with Christ and Christ will makes sure that they never hunger and thirst again, they will eat of the tree of life and they will drink the springs of water of life. What the world meant to kill them with, God will use it to bring them to eternal life. In the Kingdom of God these people have been given the highest honor of serving as Priest to Almighty God.
October 16th, 2007 at 3:11 am
Paul
I agree on most of what you wrote I’m not convinced the ottoman empire is the fourth empire because there is no biblical reference to that theory.
I have to say you ottoman theorist have a good argument but to me it is just wind right now.
In rev 6:9-10-11 were and how do you conclude that this is the ottoman empire?
and I fail to see anywhere in chapter 7 the ottoman empire or Gog and Magog mentioned please explain.
this is my take on rev 7 : end times, great tribulation, these are the martyrs in reference to verse 9
PS I am enterested in how you concluded ottoman empire. thanks
October 16th, 2007 at 11:51 am
There is evidence for it, the problem is that the traditional format has been interpreted wrongly.
Rev. 17:10-11 says there are 8 empires.
Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Macedonia, Rome/Byzantine and The Ottoman Empire. The seventh will be defeated and return to life again, which will be Gog and Magog.
My interpretation is that Revelation is talking about both the seventh and the eighth empire. I am currently working on my own commentary on it, and what i quoted is from that.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
This verse tells you what the empire will be made up of. These are in reverse order of the second dream that Daniel has that tells of the empires.
Leopard is Rome East (Byzantine Empire)
Bear is Macedonia (Greek Empire)
Lion is Persia.
This empire will cover the territory of these three empires. The only empire that followed these three to do that was the Ottoman Empire. The empire is called a Dragon.
Dan 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.
The vision comes on the heels before the invasion of Babylon by Persia, God is telling Daniel what the next four empires are.
1. Persia. (Ended 330 B.C.E., Conquered by Macedonia)
Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
2. Macedonia. (Ended 65 and 30 B.C.E., Conquered by Rome)
Dan 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
3. Roman Empire (East and West). West ended in C. 400 C.E. East ended in 1453 conquered by the Ottomans.
Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
4. Ottoman Empire (ended in 1922). No empire followed.
My belief is that we are in what John calls the “1,000 years” the time in between the 7th and the 8th empire. That Gog and Magog of Revelation and Ezekiel are the same.
The Dragon that is thrown into the pit, is the mastermind spirit that creates the empires, it is in holding, so the message or Kingdom of Christ will be spread.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
The end is the 8th empire, the rise of Gog and the return of Christ.
October 16th, 2007 at 10:13 pm
These are my opions for the beast in the end times. My opinions are not only based on Bible prophecy, but also history.
Daniel 7:4 - The first was like a lion and had the wings of an eagle. = Babylon
Ever seen the Ishtar Gate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion
Nebuchadnezzar took on the lion with wings after conquering the Assyrians:
http://www.pytlik.com/observe/daniel/pix/common/winged_lion.jpg
This is why many believe that the AntiChrist will set up his throne in Babylon because he had the mouth of a lion. Current events in Iraq show that could be a very real possiblity
The Bear = Persia - The national symbol of Persia was the bear.
The leopard = Greece - The leopard is the unofficial animal of Greece. In Daniel 7:6 the leopard has four pairs of wings because Alexander’s Empire split into four different sections. The leopard was featured in much of ancient greek art. The leopard could represent Turkey too in Revelation because Turkey was not only part of the Greek Empire, but it was the begining of the Greek Empire due to the fact that Troy lies in modern Turkey.
For me the Ottoman Empire Theory has several problems with it. First Revelation 17:9 states that the eighth belongs to the seven. The Bible does not state that this king belongs to the seventh. This means that he will come from one of the seven.
Next, the AntiChrist brokers peace with Israel. Israel has not brokered a peace treaty with her enemies in modern times without the help of a mediator, which has traditionally been the U.S. They have never signed a treaty with a Muslim nation on their own. Why would Muslims agree with signing a peace treaty with the country they want to drive into the sea? In my opinion the Muslims are being held at bay by another super power or their ability to make war has been wiped away from them by a massive war. This does not mean that the AntiChrist will not be looked at by Muslims as an enemy. They might very well look at him as the Mahdi. Just research the relationship of Adolf Hitler and Amin Al Husseini. Someone posted documents on here this week that Hitler was thought to be the Mahdi in the 1940’s. The AntiChrist must be loved by billions to come to power and be the most powerful man in history.
I do not believe this man will come and conquer the entire world with an Islamic army. Islamic soldiers are on average very poor soldiers. Not one Muslim military leader has had any major military success in the last 500 years. If the West went to war with a unified Islamic world they would be crushed by a technologically advanced Western military. The only way for the Islamic world to win is with the help of Russia, China, and Nuclear Weopons, which is a very real possibility. Under this condition, though, Westerners would not worship a man who has enslaved them and they realize that they are enslaved.
October 17th, 2007 at 8:39 am
The number seven in Rev 17:11, can be of the seven (of the whole) or of the seventh.
Seventh according to chronology is the Ottoman Empire, the Ottoman Empire controlled everything that the Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Macedonians, and Rome/Byzantine controlled, with the exception of Iran and land beyond the Danube River. But 80-90% of the territory controlled by them were controlled by the Ottoman Empire.
Revelation does not paint a picture of an empire controlling the world, The word world, that many claim to mean the entire world is the Greek word: oikoumenē, the word literally can mean empire.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world (Empire), to try them that dwell upon the earth (land).
October 17th, 2007 at 9:01 am
I disagree that the first beast is Babylon, because the chronology of it happens when the Persians are invading Babylon. The Persians take over Babylon not too long afterwards, so i believe that the dreams are in reference to Persia, Macedonia, Rome and Ottoman.
Otherwise, it would stop at the 6th empire and we would not know that there was a 7th empire.
Because according to your view it goes from Babylon, Persia, Macedonia and Rome, where is the seventh empire?
My view includes it.
Here is a pic of Xerxes with the body of a lion and eagles wings:
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/1/12/Persepolis_-_The_Gate_of_Xerxes.jpg
October 17th, 2007 at 11:23 am
Paul,
The Ottoman Empire is the Seventh in Revelation, but the scripture says that the beast will come from the seven not that it will come from the seventh. I do not believe this verse referred directly to the seventh. There are so many problems with the Ottoman theory….
A ruler will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. Daniel 9:26 - Titus destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD.
The Animals and statue in Daniel have no representation of the Ottoman Empire. There are only four beasts. The first being the head of gold=Babylon which is the same as lion with eagle wings.
Daniel 2:38 & 39 You, O king, are the king of kings; to you the God of heaven has given dominion and strength, power and glory;
men, wild beasts, and birds of the air, wherever they may dwell, he has handed over to you, making you ruler over them all; you are the head of gold. - Daniel speaking directly to Nebuchadnezzar. Notice how powerful he is…..
Have you not seen the ancient Babylonian statues? Remember the Persians conquered Babylon and took on many of its cultural aspects. As did the Babylonians when they conquered the Assyrians and took the same kingly image for themselves. This was the way of representing the King as a god, like the Assyrians and the Babylonians. Also, the wings were plucked from the lion because only one half of the empire was destroyed by Cyrus. The other half was never destroyed.
The leopard is the representation of Macedonia/Greece in Daniel, it had four wings that split, according to you this would be representative of Rome, can you tell me where in Roman history the empire was split four ways? It was not, believe me I’m a degreed historian.
The leopard in Revelation is also representative of Greece. This is due to the fact that Greece was the ignition point for Western Civilization/Europe, our Western culture stems from ancient Greece….government, philosophy, science, mathmatics.
A combined Muslim Empire that is the most powerful in the world is a real stretch. The bulk of the worlds money lies in Western Markets and the most powerful man ever to walk to earth would have to be one that ruled a global empire, not that of a man that rules over 500 million people that for the most part live like it is still the 15th century.
This evil Muslim Empire would have no choice but to confront a Western Military which it would lose unless Russia and China were allied with the Muslim Empire. The unstoppable Euro and the fact that they are about to consolidate NATO as their military makes the EU a force to be reckoned with.
I don’t understand how people are not paying attention to Europe:
10 original countries formed the Western EU in 1948, same year as rebirth of Israel.
The EU consolidated in 1957 with the Treaty of Rome
The EU capital in Brussels is said to be modeled after a painting of the tower of Babel.
The symbol of Europa is a woman riding a bull/beast. This statue is outside the doors of EU capital.
The EU will soon pass the US as the leading world Super Power
God gave us our history as a learning stick and a reference. I believe the time of the Muslims are short and they will be destroyed or lose their ability to make war. The history of these people dictates this. They flare up for a while and the West wipes their abiltity to make war out. They are making a final attempt at having control in the world, but the only way it will not fail is to have Russia and China on their side. This means a world war with the West along with some Asian countries (including India) vs Muslims, China, Russia.
October 17th, 2007 at 4:06 pm
David,
Ultimately the identity of the final Antichrist Empire cannot be based on our speculations. It must be based on what the Scriptures say. Not a single Passage of Scripture points to Europe. But they all point to the Middle East. That settles it for me.
Let me just throw out a couple of Scriptures to challenge to any European Theorist and then I will specifically address a few of your comments:
From the Book of Numbers, in one of the earliest, clearest and most direct Messianic prophecies in the Bible, we read:
The Messiah is portrayed as descending from Jacob and possessing the “scepter”—a clear reference to his future rule over Israel. But what is he said to accomplish when he rules over Israel? He will utterly destroy his enemies which consequently are also the enemies of Israel. These three names Moab, Edom, and Seir are all referring to the same general people and the same general region. It is the peoples who lived to the east and southeast of Israel. Now, I may have my geography a little mixed up, but is Europe located immediately to the southeast of Israel? Or is this the location of Arabia? When Jesus returns to take hold of his scepter and destroy “his enemies”, who are they? I challenge any European Theorist to explain the meaning of this passage.
Or how about this one. We just saw that Messiah’s primary purpose is to crush Moab. Isaiah also makes this fact clear when he says that:
Could this language be any clearer? Has this happened yet or is this referring to period after Christ has returned? Unless death has already been swallowed up and I have missed it, this is clearly about the return of Christ. But what else will occur “in that day”? The passage goes on:
God doesn’t seem to worried about using polite or politically correct language here, does he? Once again, the Messiah comes back to trample Moab. For those who hold to the European Antichrist Paradigm, why does God specifically mention Moab and not any nations from Europe? I personally think the answer is clear.
You said: “A ruler will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. Daniel 9:26 - Titus destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD.”
The People of the Prince to come is referring to the Antichrist, not Titus. Titus cannot be in mind here as he never established the seven year covenant. The point of the passage is to point us to the “people” who destroyed the Temple when Titus led them against Jerusalem. The people were Syrians who were recruited from the area of Antioch where the tenth Legion was garrisoned. It was the tenth legion that destroyed the Temple. These were mostly Arabs anad Syrians. Some were indeed Roman Citizens, but not Europeans. This is backed up by Josephus who I quote below:
You said: “The Animals and statue in Daniel have no representation of the Ottoman Empire.”
The fourth Empire was not an animal, but a Beast. The Islamic Empire is the only Empire that matches all of the requirments in these passages. It cannot be the Roman Empire because one of the primary requirments within the passage is that the fourth would conquer ALL of those before it. Rome never conquered Persia, only crossed the Euphrates for less than a few months and in fact was overwhelmed by Greek culture and language as you correctly mentioned. Yet the Islamic Empire indeed did crush all of the Empires pervious to it: Persia, Babylon, and Greece. Most of the ME now speaks Arabic and follows Islam. Persia now uses an Arabicized alphabet. Islam crushed the whole region.
You said: “The leopard is the representation of Macedonia/Greece in Daniel, it had four wings that split, according to you this would be representative of Rome, can you tell me where in Roman history the empire was split four ways? It was not, believe me I’m a degreed historian.”
The Leopard is indeed the Hellenistic Greek Empire. But The Islamic Empire is the fourth that came after it.
You said: “A combined Muslim Empire that is the most powerful in the world is a real stretch. The bulk of the worlds money lies in Western Markets and the most powerful man ever to walk to earth would have to be one that ruled a global empire, not that of a man that rules over 500 million people that for the most part live like it is still the 15th century.”
Again, as I said in another post, there is no need for the Final Empire to be the most powerful in the whole world, only throughout the Middle East. It only need the ability to blackmail the majority of the world to look the other way as it conquers several Muslim nations and attacks Israel. Obviously they have enough Oil to do this.
You said: “This evil Muslim Empire would have no choice but to confront a Western Military which it would lose unless Russia and China were allied with the Muslim Empire. The unstoppable Euro and the fact that they are about to consolidate NATO as their military makes the EU a force to be reckoned with.”
They very well may: “For ships of Kittim will come against him.” (Daniel 11:30) The Septuagint translates Kittim as “Romans”. Ie Europeans. If Europe is the AC empire, then how can they attack themsleves? No. Daniel 11 shows us that the Antiochus wasa precursor to the AC who will also be attacked by Europe. Even though they are the most “toothless” linguini-spined grouping of liberal whimp nations that has ever existed today.
you said: “I don’t understand how people are not paying attention to Europe. 10 original countries formed the Western EU in 1948, same year as rebirth of Israel.”
Everyone is looking to Europe. That is the focus of every prophecy teacher since the sixties. As far as the original 10 EU countries, it has gone wayyy past 10 since then and thus does not match the prophecy at all. Also, as I said, Rome cannot be the fourth Empire as it simply did not crush all of the others before it: Persia, Babylon, Greece.
You said: “God gave us our history as a learning stick and a reference. I believe the time of the Muslims are short and they will be destroyed or lose their ability to make war. The history of these people dictates this. They flare up for a while and the West wipes their abiltity to make war out.”
The West is falling. Demographically we are aborting ourselves into extinction. Mark Steyn’s AmericaAlone si a must read along these lines. Within fifty years, the world will be well over half Muslim. The demographics don’t lie.
October 17th, 2007 at 4:19 pm
“The Ottoman Empire is the Seventh in Revelation, but the scripture says that the beast will come from the seven not that it will come from the seventh.”
As i said the word seven is a translation of the word “hepta” which can mean seven, seventh, or any variation of the number.
The bible gives the description of the Ottoman Empire, it is called a Dragon or at least some seven headed beast. The tradition format is that the “dragon” is Europe. And that belief comes from how you interpret it, that the first beast is Babylon, fourth beast must be Rome. Because if The Dragon in Daniel is Rome, then the dragon in Revelation is Rome and there is no basis for you to conclude that the Ottoman Empire even fits into the scheme.
Because then the empires stop at 6, and the Bible says that there are 8.
So if you conclude that the fourth Beast is Rome, John says it is the 6th empire, then john says that there are 7th and an 8th empire, so then Rome is both the 6th, 7th, and 8th Empire?
For the Ottoman Empire to fit into the equation and for there to be biblical support for it, then the fourth Beast must be the Ottoman Empire, the same description that is mentioned in revelation 13
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
One of the empires is defeated or wounded to death (defeated) and is brought back to life.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard (Rome), and his feet were as the feet of a bear (Macedonia), and his mouth as the mouth of a lion (Persia): and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
If you interpret this the way i showed and believe, the outline of this fits the Ottoman Empire.
Daniel 9:26, there are two ways to cut this: One is your interpretation. The other is mine, which is also held by many. That the Prince that is to come is Christ.
9:25: Messiah the Prince. The prince is named.
9:26: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. I believe the word destroy is wrong, It should be translated into Abandoned. So it would sound like this:
And the people of the prince (Messiah) that shall come shall ABANDONED the city and the sanctuary.
If you look at the picture i gave in the link, you will see Xerxes head on a lion with eagle’s wings, clearly denoting a Persian sign. Not Babylon.
“The leopard is the representation of Macedonia/Greece in Daniel, it had four wings that split, according to you this would be representative of Rome, can you tell me where in Roman history the empire was split four ways? It was not, believe me I’m a degreed historian.”
The four wings and the four heads of the Leopard, I can see where you can conclude that it is Greece. But I disagree. It is Rome.
It is not talking about the division of the Empire as to when Alexander the great died, but it is talking about the direction of the empire of rome. North, South, East and West. The four heads represent four leader major leaders of Rome.
West you have Spain. North you have England. South you have Egypt and East you have Asia Minor. The Four heads represent the four leaders of Rome that brought the empire together. Julius Caesar, Gaius Marius, Sulla and Pompey the Great. Who conquered the Med sea Basin, uniting the points under one rule.
“A combined Muslim Empire that is the most powerful in the world is a real stretch.”
The problem i see is you see a Muslim Empire conquering the world, that is a mistake most make when they read Revelation and Daniel, they assume it is a world empire, the problem lies in the fact that none of the empires have been “Whole world” they took over a specific spot. The common spot is Israel. Europe never controlled Israel when it rose up into the EU, so that point disqualifies them.
Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Macedonia, Rome and the Ottoman Empire have all controlled the land of Israel during their empire. The EU has never controlled Israel nor do they make any claim to it, the one group that claims the land of Israel today is the Muslims, not Europe, thus the seventh Empire and the eighth empire are the same.
But the problem with the EU view is that it is too western centric, which the bible plays no part of, the bible is Israel centric, so the history must be centered around Israel and thus I conclude that the seventh/eighth empire are the same.
I mean no offense to you in any thing i say, just offering my respectful disagreement
October 17th, 2007 at 9:04 pm
Joel, all of us on here speculate if we can say for sure the AntiChrist is X coming from X, then, we have crossed the line of Biblical readers and entered into stating that we are prophets.
Paul,
No offense taken, but the problem here is that the people on this blog keep repeating the bible being Middle East centric, when that is not true. Peoples living in the Europe are mentioned.
Example: Tarshish is mentioned in Ezekiel 38:13, Tarshish has been placed in one of two places, First evidence points to the Iberian Pennisula, second this is an area near the Taurus mountians in Asia Minor, neither are located in the Middle East. Rome and Greece are both Western Empires that gave birth to our current society. Babylon is said to be punished by a king so far north that he almost comes from the heavens, this is not a Middle Eastern country God uses to swipe Babylon. There are more than this in the Bible.
The Bible is Israel Centric, that is correct, but that does not mean a World Empire cannot come into existence.
Now, if the AntiChrist’s empire is not world wide and all of us Christians are here how are we going to be effected by the Mark of the Beast? The whole point of the end times is so that God gets mans attention and saves his pepole. How is that to happen if we are not being ruled by the AntiChrist and are not forced to choose between Satan and God? To look at this as only a great Muslim Empire, remember the Bible refers to the AntiChrist as the most powerful man in world history, only located in the Middle East is just too much of a stretch.
October 17th, 2007 at 10:26 pm
I hear what you are saying.
Israel is the center point of the bible, which we seem to agree on.
The bible is not all about being Christian. It is about Israel, the Christian faith comes from Israel and then went out to the entire world. Israel is the apple of God’s Eye, Israel is the true vine and Christians are graphed into it. Christians have made themselves the centric point of the bible, so they will see a Western Centric view in the bible. If one has a Jew Centric view of the bible, they will see Israel at the very heart of it.
But like any story, you may read a book that centralizes on one person or event. But there will be times when the author takes us to a different locale or person for a short time, in order to progress the story.
That does not mean the story stops being character or event centered. It just means that the author mentioned someone else to add information to the story. I think that is what happens in the bible when it mentions other nations and cities in the bible that are not centered around Israel.
The 8th empire must have Israel under its control. Every empire has had that. The only way Israel can be controlled by an outside force if it comes through the middle east. And is Syria and Jordan going to allow a Romanian or French controlled Army to waltz right through?
If Europe controls the Middle East there will not be seven days of peace, let alone seven years as most believe. I do not hold to that, so for me that is a moot point, but i know the history of the middle east and it is impossible for a foreign country to control a Muslim one. Look at what is going on in Iraq with the US. Just think of that on the whole Middle East against Europeans.
Europe is a passive continent, they were reluctant to send troops to Iraq, what will change to make them send hundred’s of thousands to conquer the middle east?
The avg. Military cost in Europe based off GNP is 3% with England at 6% and France at 1.5%. The US is at 10% or more. Europe is not setting itself up as a military power but an economic power. This link gives a good idea of the low military spending of Europe.
http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/Spending.asp#InContextUSMilitarySpendingVersusRestoftheWorld
The military that many Christians see Europe having will never materialize, due to the fact that they are war weary from World War II and World War I, I really do not think that they will allow World war III to be started by Europe.
I may be wrong, but i do not see Europe doing it. What i see in Europe is something very similar in what I saw in 1400’s Europe, in fighting over ideology. In Europe today it is Secularism vs Christianity. In the 1300-1400 it was Latin Christians vs Greek Christians, if the Ottoman Empire got in the way they would fight them so they could move on to the next Greek or Latin Christian.
They viewed their Christian brother to be a far worse enemy than the invading Ottoman Turks. Islam is walking into Europe and Europe is fighting about how Christian or unChristian they are.
October 18th, 2007 at 5:56 am
David,
The reference to Tarshish in Ezekiel is not a reference to the invader but rather to one who is protesting the invasion. Thus it does the opposite of proving your point. Also, I am not aware of which reference you are making about Babylon. Please cite the Scriptures. I have little respect for anyone who does not back up what they say with Scripture. But for those who back up what they believe from the Bible, even if I disagree, I fully respect them.
I do not claim to be a prophet at all. I simply show what the Bible says and I point out Scripture that proves the Middle Eastern Paradigm. It has to be about the Scriptures.
If you say that the Middle Eastern Paradigm is not true, then please respond to my challenge and interact with the Scriptures that I pointed to. Otherwise your claims are meaningless to me and not worth my time. Please do not take personal offense at this, I just don’t have time to interact with very much on this blog and it is especially so if it is simply opinion and not based on the Bible.