Gog U Magog: The War To End All Wars
Who does the Bible say are spiritually blinded? Is it not the Jewish people? Yet they seem to get it far better than much of the Christian Church. How is it that so many miss the obvious: Gog is Antichrist and the Battle of Gog & Magog is essentially Armageddon.
Describing the result of the defeat of Gog, the Bible says:
“And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am Yahweh.’ I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in safety in the coastlands, and they will know that I am Yahweh… ” ‘I will make known my holy name among my people Israel. I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, and the nations will know that I Yahweh am the Holy One in Israel. It is coming! It will surely take place, declares Yahweh the Sovereign. This is the day I have spoken of.
—Ezekiel 38:21-23; 39:6-8
God Himself says that after the defeat of Gog and his armies, all of the Gentile Nations as well as Israel will be convicted of their unbelief and will know that He (Yahweh) is God. Everything about the events and Scriptural language here indicate this war is no mere opening act to the Great Tribulation, but is rather the magnificent capstone of that period that will have a decisive effect on all nations worldwide. After this event, God’s name will no longer be profaned. How could this description be accurate if the next seven years are defined by the final rebellion against God?
How can this be a description of some lesser battle that takes place just prior to the coming forth of the Antichrist who will then literally spend three and a half years openly blaspheming God’s name, all the while gathering a global following in the process?
September 17th, 2007 at 8:35 pm
Joel Richardson
Would you like to be on live radio/ I have a very large audence…
check out these two web pages
Shalom, Pastor Dan Catlin
http://www.messiahsbranch.org/radio.htm
http://www.messiahsbranch.org/radio_archives.htm
September 17th, 2007 at 11:29 pm
About a 2 or 3 months ago i had posted a link in regards to their movies. They have many more on google. I wish i had jewish blood. Adoption is better than nothing i guess.
regards,
jon
the final journey
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7069571280084715695&q=torah+ohr&total=19&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2
last days 1 and 2
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3235423378789294307
gog u magog
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=823874545897056128&q=gog+u+magog&total=33&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
September 18th, 2007 at 1:37 am
Hello, Joel
speaking as someone who in your view is missing something obvious , I believe that Many Christians are waking up to many facts that Antichrist is in fact a Muslim, also many are also looking into the ( Eastern Leg of the Roman empire ( which I know many say its not Rome ) but many including me come up with the islamic empire being the seventh which will spring up the eighth ( antichrist kingdom) so many christians are becoming aware of these things ((we just dont believe in a post trib rapture ,since as soon as antichrist confirms the covenant you could count the years ,days which no man knows only the Father ,and we dont believe in the mid trib rapture since 3 1/2 years into the trib we could count the days till the end of the trib ))) and we mostly dont believe gog to be antichrist although he could be im not God so I cant say 100 % but most christians believe he isnt and gog magog war is right before the trib or at the start or at the mid a small group believes this war is connected with the last war armageddon.
although the Christians you speak of dont agree on somethings we should make an effort to make strong relationships with each other and build on what we hold in common , perry stone , bill cloud and others believe antichrist is a muslim ( isnt that a start ) and there is lots of talk in other post blogs ect ect that are waking up to this so please remember the rapture ( harpazo ) being caught up > wasnt revealed before Paul so the old prophets didnt see as clearly as Paul did it was kept from the other prophets as it says in the scriptures To Paul this mystery was revealed .
thank you Joel for the post , by the way if gog is antichrist It wont surprise me or some other christians as much as you might think ,
and if gog is from turkey cool , I believe that russia will at least play a part simply because they are arming the mideast big time , but if it all happens the way you say then that would be amazing in its self .
pray for the peace of Jerusalem , Israel , America and the world …
we may have are different views , but Islam will not divide us as they wish sure some will fall and some will go to the false jesus and follow him and there mahdi but many many will stand catholic with baptist , orthodox with calvary chapel , ect ect we will make a stand one day and If you are right and we have to go through the Wrath of GOD then Brother we will fight together against the evil hord , but if im right and we go up into heaven before the WRATH OF GOD then you can argue with me all you want as long as its in the clouds …
your friend ( RasulJacob )
September 18th, 2007 at 2:24 am
….All OK RASUL,
Only about RUSSIA I repeat what I am asserting almost EVERY DAY (I becoming BORING, I KNOW!): REMEMBER STALIN’S FATE….
Soviet Russsia armed secretly GERMANY since 1929 in hate to western democracies…
THEN in in 1941 was ATTACKED by GERMANS - and in many cases the GENERALS which attacked RUSSIA have been trained as young officers by RUSSIA itself, they were fluent russian-speakers, and knew the territory VERY WELL-
PUTIN SHOULD REMEMBER THIS….
“God writes straight even through our distorted lines”
September 18th, 2007 at 11:27 am
you could very well be right Paolo,and remember the Nazis had many groups of muslims with them , same Devil even if the way may be different , hey Russia has only till about 2015 when there military will be at least a third islamic , they even have a day ( holiday ) where they promote baby making there population is going down , looks like its another round for the evil ones but let us not lose heart we will win the war !!!!!!!!!
peace my friends , yes I know only true peace is when CHRIST rules
and may his rule come soon.
September 18th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
one small question if gog war is armaggon how can according to ezekiel 38 &39 Israel , be at rest when Israel is being smitten by a rod ( which is the assyrian ) ISAIAH 30;31 so how can there be a YOKE on Israel and her be at rest ? so doesnt this make it impossible for the gog war to happen at the end of the tribulation since antichrist will be persecuting Israel for the last 42 ( fourty two months ) of the trib ? im asking not to debate but this is a real question people in the other camp like me would like to know Paolo ,any one (( like I said before this gog could be antichrist ))) but I like to study it more then a few months or so to make sure of things I realize there are simularities between the wars but there are differences in them and in gog and antichrist as well . at least im considering it to be plausable thats more then many please dont get mad or upset I know how some people get .
IN CHRIST NAME PEACE
September 18th, 2007 at 1:52 pm
Hi Rasul,
The answer to that is in Daniel 9:27. The AC makes a covenant with many for 3 1/2 years. This begins the last 7 years. I believe the covenant with many will be a treaty between Israel and many of her Arab enemies. This sets up the living safely of Eze 38 and 39. The AC breaks this peace at the midpoint of the last 7 years. Matthew 24 tells us that after the abomination of desolation there will be the worse tribulation Israel has or ever will see. Dan 9:27 teaches us that the AOD happens in the middle of the last 7 years. So basically 3 1/2 years of peace with her Arab neighbors broken at an event called the AOD. Read Dan 11:21-11:45 for the career of the AC. The AOD is shown in 11:31. The events from 11:21-31 occur prior to the middle of the last 7 years (11:31). The events after 11:31 occur during the second half of the last 7 years. By the time that Armageddon occurs 6 out of 7 of the bowl/vial judgments have occured. God’s wrath is nearly over before Armageddon begins (Rev 6). Jesus returns at Armageddon and not before. I can provide ample scripture to back that statement believe me. Once we understand that Jesus only returns once then we can see the true picture of the second coming.
Peace,
Seeker
September 18th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
thanks for your response Ill give it some thought , thanks again and look forward to reasoning not debating .
Just a thought in Daniel 12 , it says the rightous awake to shine , and the wicked well to torment , all in the same sentence correct ?
but we know from revelation 20 , the judgment on the wicked isnt until the 1000 years is over , so two resurrections not one event even with in the one sentence , HAS ANYONE EVER NOTICED NO MENTION OF THE BEAMA SEAT OF CHRIST IN REVELATION 20 WHERE IT SPEAKS OF THE WICKED BEING JUDGED . REALLY THERE ARE A WHOLE LIST OF RESURRECTIONS , AND RAPTURE TYPE THINGS THAT HAPPEN ALL THROUGHOUT THE BIBLE , WE SHOULD ALL LOOK INTO THE HEBREW MEANINGS TO THE WORDS AS WELL AS THE GREEK iT HAS STRENGTHENED MY BELIEF SYSTEM , SIDE NOTE > THE JEWS WERE LOOKING FOR A MESSIAH TO CONQUER THE ROMANS AND TO RESTORE THE TEMPLE TO HOLINESS , AND TO BECOME KING OVER THEM , WELL THEY LOOKED AT THE SAME SCRIPTURE AS WE DO BUT ( WE UNDERSTAND THAT HE HAS TWO COMINGS RIGHT) MY THOUGHT TO YOU IS IF THEY WERE MISTAKEN ABOUT HIS COMING TWICE AND NOT ONCE WHY COULDNT SOME OF US BE MISTAKEN AS WELL ? REMEMBER HIS COMING TO THE RAPTURIST AS i HAVE BEEN CALLED HAPPENS IN THE AIR , YES i KNOW THE PEOPLE WILL SAY BUT HE CANT LEAVE HIS THRONE , BUT CANT HE REMEMBER HIS WORDS i AM WITH YOU ALWAYS EVEN UNTO THE END OF THE WORLD , REMEMBER THE COMING OF CHRIST AGAIN WAS A MYSTERY , ONLY TO PAUL WAS IT REVEALED , SURE THE OTHER PROPHETS SEEN EVENTS BUT GOD DIDNT LET THEM SEE THE BLESSED HOPE !!! THANKS remember GOD IS TRUE AND MAYBE THE MAN OF SIN AND OTHER THINGS IS A MYSTERY NOT MENT TO BE TOTALLY KNOWN IF GOD BLINDED SOME PARTS OF HIS PROPHETIC PLAN FROM THOSE GREAT PROPHETS SURLEY HE CAN DO THE SAME TO US …
RASULJACOB
September 18th, 2007 at 4:37 pm
Joel,
I was reading some of the history of events prior to the 1973 Yom Kippur war and was interested in the political moves made just prior to the invasion by Egypt and Syria, (expelling the Soviet military advisor etc.) in order to make it appear that things were moving in one direction when, in fact, they were moving behind the scenes in the exact oppostie direction! I wonder how many of the seemingly peaceful moves we see on the surface now mask something compeltely different under the surface. Time will tell but I bet history will repeat.
September 18th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
That is why he is so slick, or as the Bible says, “a master of intrigue”.
September 18th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
rasul,
The answer to your question is that the description of Gog and Magog battle is actually a prophetic summary and not a precise narrative. It is not one simple battle, but a prophecy in general about the rise and eventual attack and destruction of the AC and his armies.
To help you see this as a common manner in which prophecies occur, consider for example the following passage:
Now, the average Jew would read this and ask, in a similar vein as your question,:
“how can Jesus be the Messiah when he never took the government on his shoulders as the passage says.”
To which you would explain that the verse has a two thousand year gap.
So while we Christian all are happy to accept that this verse actually unfolds over a two thousand year period, why do so many Christians have a hard time believing that Ezekiel 38 might take as long as seven years?
Does that make sense?
Now, my question in return to you would be this:
Describing the result of the defeat of Gog, the Bible says:
God Himself says that after the defeat of Gog and his armies, all of the Gentile Nations as well as Israel will be convicted of their unbelief and will know that He (Yahweh) is God. Everything about the events and Scriptural language here indicate this war is no mere opening act to the Great Tribulation, but is rather the magnificent capstone of that period that will have a decisive effect on all nations worldwide. After this event, God’s name will no longer be profaned. How could this description be accurate if the next seven years are defined by the final rebellion against God?
How can this be a description of some lesser battle that takes place just prior to the coming forth of the Antichrist who will then literally spend three and a half years openly blaspheming God’s name, all the while gathering a global following in the process.
Bless You,
Joel
September 18th, 2007 at 7:12 pm
Brent,
I edited the post for you and rasul, so as not to sound too arrogant or impatient.
September 18th, 2007 at 7:33 pm
Rev 20:7-10 The last battle of battles is after the thousand years. Gog is Satan. Magog is the the invading people. some people think Magog is another person.
It would appear to me that the battle, spoken of in Ezekiel is not the same battle as Armageddon. i could be wrong.
September 18th, 2007 at 9:07 pm
I do believe that Gog and magog are the same event both in Revelation and in Ezekiel.
That is because I believe that the period we are living in now is what John referred to as the “thousand years” and that The Beast and the False Prophet was the Ottoman Empire and that is in judgment by God.
Satan is what i believe to be a “Spirit” that controls the empires and it is in holding till the time is ready to be released which will be a “revived Ottoman Empire” or Gog and Magog.
That Christ will return at the end of this period as his Second Coming and that will bring about his judgment.
September 18th, 2007 at 9:30 pm
lee:
If Ezekiel 38 is speaking about events a thousand plus years away, it is interesting that the specific nations mentioned are the specific nations that are now about to attack Israel. Also, consider some of the similarities between Ezekiel 38 and Armageddon in Rev 19:
The Defeat of Gog Compared to the Defeat of Antichrist.
We have two descriptions of one event, each from slightly, though very similar perspectives. Ezekiel describes this terrible event from one angle while the Book of Revelation describes it from another. In each description there is the invitation to the birds and beasts to the “great feast / sacrifice” whereby they will eat the flesh of “Kings and mighty men and horses” in Israel.
Burn The Weapons:
Also, we also read that after the destruction of Gog, the peoples of Israel will burn the weapons of war that have been scattered on the battle field:
Such an event—the burning of weapons—would not take place unless the world was a place where weapons were no longer needed and where enemies no longer existed. As such, this passage is also highly reminiscent of the Prophet Micah’s descriptions of the Messianic period of the millennium:
The Great Earthquake
At both the destruction of Gog and the destruction of Antichrist, an unparalleled and very great earthquake occurs. This is seen in several prophetic passages. The description in Ezekiel is quite extreme:
This is not a small event. Every creature on earth, including all men on will shake at the presence of God. This same event is described in the Book for Revelation as occurring when the armies of Antichrist are gathered together in and against Israel:
In both descriptions, the mountains are said to be “thrown down”. Nowhere else in Scripture is such a description found. Again, speaking of the Antichrist, Zechariah also describes the same event from his own prophetic perspective:
This earthquake that levels the earth is the result of the worldwide resurrection of believers and their catching up to be with Christ in the air, a foreshadow of which occurred on the day that Christ Himself rose from the dead. The Mountain does not split because Jesus is so heavy. Also, if all of the Mountains are thrown down in Ezekiel AND Revelation, yet they are two separate events, then how can they thrown down twice?
The Great Hailstones:
Beyond the great earthquake, there are also great hailstones that are said to rain on the armies of both Gog and the Antichrist:
Now, there are only two positions that can be taken here. One can either admit that these are the same events, or they will be forced to simply say, “coincidence.” After looking at just some of the evidence, which seems more reasonable to you?
September 19th, 2007 at 12:53 am
Once again the board is on fire , hmm this is a hot topic since Im really the only one here who doesnt totally see gog being the antichrist , hey Joel good post , now then gog attacks israel to take a spoil , so let me get this straight he is in israel ruling and then ups and leaves his new house after fighting for it ? then leaves only to come down with the hook in his mouth and come down for a spoil? what spoil since he eas already there he had the spoils didnt he ?
now gog according to scripture is buried in ezekiel 39;11 now he and his hordes are buried and they even name it after him , now daniel 7;11 says that the beast body was burned but not buried ? hmm .
couldnt the army of gog be the same army as theone in joel 2 ? but not in joel 3 ?
just wondering ? by the way thank for all the feed back Joel I admit it your view seems good , But im still not there yet .
thank all of you for your time I hope I have put together some good points and Joel I didnt paste a thing lol. remember the Israelites seen some pretty amazing stuff agreed ? but when moses left back to being stiff necked and following demons , so after ezekiel 38 39 israel could slip back into unbelief , yes I know not all of Israel and yes God doesnt hid his face from them of course that doesnt mean they themselves dont fall back to sin , and his glory is shown by ( maybe the two witness’ ) they convert 144,000 jews and multitudes of gentiles will stand up to antichrist seems like this is God showing the nations his glory to me it could happen that way but I know it is just a thought .
remember I am not oposed to gog being antichrist I just think there is more to this .
Rasul Jacob pray for the peace of Jerusalem . and each other the time is coming when night will come upon us all.
September 19th, 2007 at 1:13 am
by the way Israel joel could burn those weapons believing peace was upon them ( remember alot of christians believe gog magog happens right before the first three and a half years of the seven year treaty , so lets add this up gog magog war 3 1/2 years before the tribulation plus 3 1/2 years into the trib with peace treaty then antichrist breaks it kills the two witness’ leaving 3 1/2 years left to wage the final solution on the jews and christians so by this we get 10 1/2 years the first 7 years they could burn the weapons thats why the jews must flee to the mountains since they dont hav emuch of a military any more and plus (( the yes im going to say it if the rapture Harpazo )) happens then God would show his glory among the nations and to Israel since that would be a wake up call , and remember daniel says in chapter 9 the last week ( 7 years is for daniel and his people the jews ) and it is a time of Jacobs trouble jacob being Israel to during harvest the wheat get crushed symbolic like the jews turn to GOd during there most horrible time in history ? so see it is possible hmm maybe not popular but some people believe this . and Joel I know all about things in the scripture that take years if not a thousand years apart from happening even when they are even in the same sentence .
Joel I must admit it you give the best case for this belief of gog .
I hope everyone joins the discussion paolo ect please everyone give your view thats why Joel has this forum for . hey what out damascus will become a ruin and that could set up the gog magog thing times are a changing seasons are coming and signs all point to Gods handy work .
September 19th, 2007 at 1:23 am
Hi Joel
With all due respect. KJV REV 20:7-10
And when a thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of prison.
and shall go out to deceive the nation which are in the four quarters of the earth Gog and Magog to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the see. I’ll stop there.
So if I’m understanding you think the thousand years is now? or is about to pass. no, that would mean Satan is in his prison right now.
consider Ezekiel 37:22 In 1948, Israel, the people were gathered together to make Israel the country. sense becoming a nation Israel has not Known peace.
rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the saints about and the beloved city and fire came down from God and devoured them. this is different then 38,39.
i admit they are similar and i can only see what i read. I think 2 different wars
September 19th, 2007 at 2:05 am
Joel
In fact could Ezekiel 39:1-16 be speaking of the beginning of the thousand years.
And to finish my thought on Satan being in prison. if he is, he’s doing a lot of damage from there.
I don’t necessarily believe there has to be a war before the great tribulation. but i do believe that the persecution of the church will get exceedingly bad.
Joel you know every time you bring Ezekiel 38 and 39 up. you make me work in the bible all the harder. sincerely thanks.
September 19th, 2007 at 5:20 am
rasul,
Thanks for your thoughts… Now, I did answer the question that you posed… Now I’m curious as to what your specific thoughts are regarding the questions that I asked you:
Describing the result of the defeat of Gog, the Bible says:
God Himself says that after the defeat of Gog and his armies, all of the Gentile Nations as well as Israel will be convicted of their unbelief and will know that He (Yahweh) is God. Everything about the events and Scriptural language here indicate this war is no mere opening act to the Great Tribulation, but is rather the magnificent capstone of that period that will have a decisive effect on all nations worldwide. After this event, God’s name will no longer be profaned. How could this description be accurate if the next seven years are defined by the final rebellion against God?
How can this be a description of some lesser battle that takes place just prior to the coming forth of the Antichrist who will then literally spend three and a half years openly blaspheming God’s name, all the while gathering a global following in the process?
Also,
If this happens 3 and a half years or so before Armageddon, yet in this event the mountains are thrown down, and “every wall shall fall” , then how can cities fall again and mountains also be thrown down again in only three and a half years?
September 19th, 2007 at 5:24 am
lee,
I believe that the Gog and Magog of Revelation is distinct Gog and Magoh from Ezekiel 38. I believe that the Ezekiel 38 Gog is the first, while the Gog of Rev used the name to indicate what type of rebellion it will be. I have to believe this because I am a Premillenialist.
September 19th, 2007 at 7:53 am
I think there is a war at the beginning of great tribulation going by Luke 21:20, which most have erroneously linked with Titus’ invasion in AD70. The invasion of Jerusalem is synchronous with the placing of abomination of desolation (AOD) per Matthew 24. This invasion is most likely the same one as Ezek 38 invasion. I believe and teach pre-trib rapture of the body of Christ, but the tribulation begins with the AOD, and is NOT 3.5 years long. AOD is in the midst of the week. In Mat 24:22, those days would be shortened. So we really don’t know the during between the AOD which begins the great-trib and sixth seal signs which END the great-trib. As for the “7 year trib”, there is no verse in the Bible which proves that 100% of the last week of Daniel is the time of Jacob’s trouble. I don’t think we can also fit in the ministry of the 2 witnesses within the first 3.5 years.
So I see 3 future comings of the Lord. First is the secret rapture of the members of the body of Christ. Second is at the end of great tribulation after the sixth seal (Rev 6:12-17 and Mat 24:29). The angels will gather the living tribulation saints (not dead saints as in Rapture). After this the vials will be poured upon the world. The third coming is in Rev 19 at the Armageddon.
I understand that Ezek 38-39 covers the period from the beginning of great-trib until the Armageddon, and the reason why we cannot discern the duration is mention by brother Joel earlier. So Mr.Gog should be the antichrist, which is the 8th king (demonic) of Rev 17, who (most likely) is Satan incarnated in the body of a dead 7th king (human). The 7th king should come from one of the 4 breakup kingdoms after Alexander, and the direction is NORTH as mentioned in Daniel 11. So the northren breakup of Alexander’s kingdom is TURKEY, and the palce in Turkey is PERGAMOS where Satan’s seat is. Satan’s seat was not there in Pergamos in AD90-100, but it will be after he is cast down in Rev 12, which begins the great tribulation. So all 7 “churches” are FUTURE Jewish congregations during great trib, and not the gatherings of the members of the body of Christ. All of revelation is “prophecy” and John saw it after he was in the Spirit in the “Lord’s day” (day of the Lord). While the body of Christ is “church”, every “church” is NOT identical with the body of Christ. For example, the “church” in Acts 7:38 is NOT body of Christ. This is how I understand the Scriptures, Ezek 38-39, and other related prophesies.
In Christ Jesus,
Moses LemuelRaj
India.
September 19th, 2007 at 9:40 am
Joel
Sorry for my ignorance, what is a premillinialist, is this the same as pre trib ,mid trib or post trib.
September 19th, 2007 at 11:52 am
Sounds like Iran(Persia) is ready to attack Israel on October 12th.
http://www2.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-236/0709199796134418.htm
September 19th, 2007 at 2:04 pm
Joel,
like I said before the Israelites seen Gods wonders and still worshipped the golden calf , Joel you make a hard argurement , it seem pretty solid , I cant argue that , I just am unsure I mean like you and I agree something can be years apart and be different correct ? maybe the gog magog 38 and 39 will take seven years ? Joel I seen something last night on cable and it showed turkey and the snake holes ( thats what I call em )
that they dug out just to hide from there enemies , it was crazy .
I just wonder gog magog speak of only certain nations , correct ? and then armaggdon speaks of all nations , and so I guess for now ill study this more but I have come to the conclusion that we may not know the total answer till it happens ,and Yes I know circle arguing gets us nowhere but I would like to thank all of your for your views It gives a person some good stuff to look into .
and Ill say it again this forum is a good one .and im in the minority on this board but Its the only forum that Ive seen that takes the antichrist is a muslim debate serious so Ill stay if thats okay by you .
Rasul
P.s. ( the best argument by the way Joel you have is the profaning Gods name after the battle of gog magog that one gets to me )
September 19th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
Moses ,
good luck with the rapture thing its not popular here , although Ive learned how to debate it much better since coming here . I believe that technically there has been resurrections all through out the bible and raptures , either up into the air or from one place to another , as for the rapture it does seem that there could be more then one harpazo ( rapture ) in some sense since we see the 144,000 jews men , then later there with the Lord in Heaven . hmm something is strange about this .
any way most people if not all are post tribulation Im the only one I know of that Is pretrib / pre wrath position .
its a tough room but there all good Christians here and everyone even myself means well prophecy is a heart felt heated topic . but Joels site is I think one of the best , and your welcomed here believe me I mean that since it would be only me and you who believe in the rapture . sometime Joel should have a topic on the Rapture verse second coming since there are some simularities and differences. and the different beliefs of the groups …
well any way God belss you and PEACE .
MAY GOD SHINE HIS GLORY UPON ALL OF YOU AND MAY IT BE A LIGHT SHINING AND POINTING TOWARDS THE PATH OF RIGHTOUSNESS.
RASUL
September 19th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
Lee,
Ignorance is nothing to apologise for.
I am a Premillenialist which means that I believe that the Thousand years comes after Christ returns. Pre-trib, Post-trib or Mid-trib are all things that come before Premillenial. So one could be a Pre-tribulational Premillenialst. The trib part refers to when one believes the rapture will occur. I am a post-trib Premillenialist. So I believe in a real time period (may not be a literal thousand years exatly) when Christ will rule the earth after he returns. I believe that the rapture comes after the trib.
Bless Ya, Joel
September 19th, 2007 at 5:16 pm
This may be the longest comments section yet. It is very interesting. Anyway, going back to the original film, I was intrigued that the film, like many orthodox Jews, tends to lump the U.S. in with other countires which stand against Israel, or at least God’s will. This is surely a spiritual deception. God has worked many miracles to reestablish the secular nation of Israel (and preserve it). My view is that one of those miracles is the U.S. itself. Many peopel ask where the U.S. is in scripture. Obviously scripture names few countires, and none which are not in the Mediteranian area. But the circumstantial evidence is that a large part of why God established this remarkable nation called the USA — the new Israel in a sense — is to be the midwife for the reestablishment of the old Israel. Just as Joseph and Mary were never mentioned in the O.T., yet were obviously a critical part of God’s plan for the Messiah, so I believe the US was a critical part of God’s plan for establishing and preserving Israel for a season –even while being a central player in setting up the end times scenario. There has never been a more remarkable country than the U.S., and no other which had the ability to shape world events in the way we have. Now our time may be nearly over as a major world player. God blessed us while we were a blessing to the world, and as we get ever more debauched, that period may be ending
September 19th, 2007 at 7:04 pm
Hello to all,
Have only read a portion of comments. I have been looking for any prophecy blog where people can share their thoughts. I have only read some of the comments at this point, but I am enjoing all your thoughts.
I want to add some thoughts, but need some imput on the question below.
Do you feel that the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came to the people in the upper room that Jesus told them to wait for, is when the Church started?
If you agree or do not, would you list scripture for your position. After I read some of your thoughts, I will share more of where I am going with this question.
Thanks Joel for a great opportunity for those of us who love prophecy to have a place to exchanges our thoughts.
September 19th, 2007 at 7:40 pm
Alfy,
Welcome.
I suppose I would agree with that, although the Church so to speak extends back to Adam and Eve. However, Jesus’ comments regarding that “the least in the Kingdom of God is greater than John the Baptist.” makes one wonder. Jesus seemed make a distinction between Old Testament and New Testament saints. A dispensation had been completed. (I am not a dispensationalist).
By the way, while this is not a forum so to speak, technically, much discussion does happen. Often times however I myself am a bit too busy to really engage fully.
Bless Ya, Joel
September 19th, 2007 at 8:34 pm
Thanks for welcoming me,
At the beginning of the comments, I read a comment about the Rapture. Since then I have read there is someone else that believes in many Raptures throughout the Bible.
With your comment Joel, that the Church extends back to Adam and Eve, I think that my comments will no longer even come close to your veiws.
But I will continue since I really don’t have the chance to talk with others on these positions. As you know not every Christian is into prophecy, and therefore is not interested in prophecy.
I didn’t know your position on the Church, I do not see the Old Testament Saints as part of the Church, and since my point is based on when the Church starts, others may agree or differ.
In Daniel’s 70 wks I and many others see that the 69th wk stopped at the time Jesus was Crucified. We now are waiting for the begining of the 70th wk or the tribulation period.
The Church wasn’t present in the 69 weeks, and that may be a point made for not seeing the Church in the 70 wk.
Also the 24 Elders in Rev. 5 are singing my song as I am one that has been redeemed. I hope to get some feed back on this point.
These are not the only area’s that scripture points to for the Church not being in the tribulation week. But I haven’t heard others make this point.
With the opportunties for having discussion in the internet, I have a lot of trouble finding prophecy blogs. Glad for the chance here.
God Bless
September 19th, 2007 at 9:12 pm
Alfy,
I’ll be honest, I don’t believe in the Pre-trib rapture. Nor do I care to go there. What I have found is that for some reason this issue is one that is incredibly divisive. My approach is this: Hope for a pre-trib rapture but prepare for a post-trib. To not do so in light of what I believe is really weak evidence is not very wise.
Does that work?
September 19th, 2007 at 9:15 pm
comment to ALFY greetings and shalom ,peace and God bless you Im please to have you here and yes I believe in the HARPAZO , since daniel cleary speaks of the time for redemtion and cleansing to be for Daniel and his people ( who are his people ) ? well the short answer is ISRAEL the jewish people , and since the DAY of the LORD is the TIME OF JACOBS TROUBLE ( which is ISRAEL ) then the 70th week must deal with them ,
and since the Prophets were not privy to the HARPAZO and only PAUL was to recieve this Mystery so to me this plus the two judgements 1000 -1007 years apart , and a few other details pretty much sums it up for me , Im not sure on some things but I have found the more people debate me the more I study kinda funny at first in a debate im not sure as what to say but then I study and it comes to me , but we should never debate for debate sake ((( the Gospel is the Blessing OF GOD ))) and should be preached and taught . thanks agian for joining us here .
JOEL, have you ever read or heard of RANDELL PRICE ? he has great commontaries on Gog Magog , his book about the temple really shows alot of cool stuff , he says many places apocolyptic language is used in exodus , ezekiel 5 , ect ect and though some of the tempral Judgements fit earthquake and feast of birds ect ect the basic character and what he does and what happens to him are different and he says ((( GOG AND THE ISLAMIC HORDES MEET THERE DOOM ON THE MOUNTAINS OF ISRAEL , AND THAT ARMEGGDON IS THE PLACE WHERE THE ANTICHRIST ARMIES GATHER BUT NOT THE PLACE THEY STAY THEY GO TO JERUSALEM SO THIS IS WHERE ANTICHRIST MEETS HIS DOOM , ALSO GOG IS BURIED IN A VALLEY HAMAMGOG WITH THE ISLAMIC ARMIES , ANTICHRIST IS KILLED AND RESURRECTED AND THROWN INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE SO THEY MUST BE DIFFERENT .
rasul Jacob and YES i am PROUD to be called a Rapturist . pretrib/prewrath
September 19th, 2007 at 10:50 pm
“GOG AND THE ISLAMIC HORDES MEET THERE DOOM ON THE MOUNTAINS OF ISRAEL , AND THAT ARMEGGDON IS THE PLACE WHERE THE ANTICHRIST ARMIES GATHER BUT NOT THE PLACE THEY STAY THEY GO TO JERUSALEM SO THIS IS WHERE ANTICHRIST MEETS HIS DOOM , ALSO GOG IS BURIED IN A VALLEY HAMAMGOG WITH THE ISLAMIC ARMIES , ANTICHRIST IS KILLED AND RESURRECTED AND THROWN INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE SO THEY MUST BE DIFFERENT.”
“All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest…”
I highly respect Price, but I disagree with him. And he is certainly not the first to make these arguments.
Rasul, do the four gosepls present different events in a different fashion so that many unbelievers argue that they contradict each other? And yet are you not happy to tell them that despite these apparent contradictions, they can be explained and reconciled quite easily? Then why are you so determined to find irreconcilable differences where there are none, and yet ignore other clear points that cannot be dispelled? And if they can, then please go ahead… Where is Gog spoken of by the former Prophets? How can you believe that despite the fact that the passage says that “no longer will my name be profaned” that the Antichrsit will emerge after this and blaspheme Gods name for 3 and a half years?
As for the arguments that you quoted from Price:
How are the mountains of Israel and Jerusalem necessarily exclusive? There are plenty of mountains next to Jerusalem. I lived there. How this proves some clear difference is beyond me.
The second issue is likewise easy to dispel. Everyone gets so caught up on one mere verse that supposedly says that the AC will be thrown alive into hell. First of all, a person cannot be thrown alive into hell. It simply doesn’t make any sense. For elsewhere, in many places the Antichrist is described as being killed and tossed into the pit. There is no contradiction.
September 19th, 2007 at 11:00 pm
DEar, JOel ,
There are a number of considerations which make it clear that we are dealing with two great wars in our future rather than one war: In the Gog/Magog (further referred to as G/M) war, several allies of Gog are mentioned, as opposing Israel. -Ezek.38 These are the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal. Gog (in verse 3) is described as the prince of these countries or princes. They include modern day Ethiopia, Libya and Egypt.
2. In the Armageddon war, ALL nations are engaged against Jerusalem (Joel 3:2; Zech 12:3; and 14:2)
3. In the Armageddon war, the sun and the moon are darkened but not in the G/M war (Joel 3:15,Matthew 24:29, Luke 21:25, Zechariah 14:6
4. Gog comes from the North (Ezek 38:6, 15), while at Armageddon, the armies come from out of the whole earth.(Joel#:2, Zech12:3 and 14:2)
5. Gog comes to take a spoil (Ezek 38:11-12), while at Armageddon the nations of the earth assemble themselves together specifically to destroy the people of God.
6. Gog is the head of the armies at his invasion (Ezek.38:15), but at Armageddon the beast Beast is at the head of the invasion (Rev. 19:19)
7. There is a protest against Gog’s invasion (Ezek. 38:13), but at Armageddon there is no such protest because all the nations of the earth have joined themselves with the Beast in his attack against Jerusalem.
8. Gog is overthrown by divine intervention through the convolutions of nature (Ezek 38:22) , but the armies at Armageddon are destroyed by the sword which goes out of Christ’s mouth (Rev 19:15) and by the Lord my God and ALL the saints (Zech 14:5).
9. Gog’s armies array themselves in the open fields (Ezek 39:5) while at Armageddon they are seen in the city of Jerusalem (Zech 14:2; Rev. 11:2).
10. Gog’s armies are destroyed outside of Jerusalem on the mountains and in the valleys (Ezek39:2-4) and take 7 months for the people of Jerusalem to bury, while the Beast and his armies are destroyed in the city of Jerusalem itself (Zech 12:2; 14:2)
11. The Lord calls for assistance in executing judgement on Gog (Ezek 38:21), while at Armageddon He is viewed as treading the winepress alone. - (Rev. 19:15; Isaiah 63:3-6).
12. The invasion by Gog will be sudden and will come with relatively little warning (Ezek. 38:11)
Joel , till next time good night and have a good radio show
September 19th, 2007 at 11:33 pm
You should read some history books where the bible are understood alongside arcehological findings. Naturnal science have disapproved Christianity (and Islam) time upon time, don’t decive yourselves any longer.
September 19th, 2007 at 11:57 pm
Excellent points Rasul, and thanks for the welcome.
So for now I won’t discuss the Rapture, but I do see where it’s possible that portions of Ezk. 38 &39 could apply to the Magog war, and other scriptures to Armageddon.
You made that point joel earlier in the scripture of the birth of Jesus. There we dont see the 2,000 yr gap between a child is born - the goverment will be on his shoulders.
Same in Ezk 38 & 39. There are a couple of portions where I believe there is reference to the two different wars.
On Zola Levitt I heard of Walid Shoebat discusing Gog as the antichrist. By the way have any of you heard Walid on prophecy. He is very knowledegable and has ideas that the horns being Kings, are kingdoms, with the return of the Ottomen empire being the 8th horn. (I am sure that I didn’t spell that right)
While I am enjoying the prophecy tapes which by the way Rasul, include Perry Stone and Bill Cloud, I have not been able to agree with him on a revived Ottomen empire. I believe the world would hardly be amazed at a revived empire that I can’t even spell. lol
Rev. 13: 3-4 Is what I am referring to. I really can’t see the world being so astonished by a revived empire that they start worshping the beast. However I can see that happening after the antichrist is wounded, dies and coming back to life ( at the same time satan enters him Rev.12:9-10)
Anyway just thought I would mention that. I have an open mind to prophecy IF it lines with scripture. Like you Rasul, I have had to study hard as where I church talk of a pre-trib Rapture is and isn’t accepted. I have just learned to be quiet and study and look for another outlet to discuss my thoughts.
The ongoing in depth study is the one of the most exciting things the Lord has and is leading me through.
Walid Shoebat is an ex muslim and ex terroist who became saved by Jesus, and is very pro Israel.
God Bless
September 20th, 2007 at 12:59 am
wow! post trib, mid trib, pre trib. Im proud to say im a idontnoist. but when he does I’m readist.
September 20th, 2007 at 5:27 am
Alfy,
Walid and I are just now finishing up a book together. I agree nealry 99% with Walid.
It took me a while to realize that the Beast is the Empire moreso than than the Antichrist. Thi is actually far more consistant with the Book of Daniel where Beasts are Empires and not people. So there is no real reference to an individual coming back to life but there are several references to an Empire coming back to life.
Secondly the term ifor The Peoples of the “World” being astonsished is “Olam”, sometimes translated as World others as Land. It is often used in referenece to the Land of Israel and then the greater Middle East.
The Entire world need not be astonsihed, but even a Middle Eastern fulfillment can explain this verse.
Also Rev 17 shows that it is the seventh Empire that is revived, which can only be the Ottoman which came after the Roman.
September 20th, 2007 at 5:59 am
Rasul,
We’ve discussed this. And yet you did it again. You did not answer one question I posed, but simply sent me someone else’s article. What bothers me the most about this is that it shows that you are not thinking for yourself.
http://endtimepilgrim.org/clevetta_gog.htm
And even worse, it was a very lame article at that.
I’ll respond to these points one by one:
—”In the Armageddon war, ALL nations are engaged against Jerusalem (Joel 3:2; Zech 12:3; and 14:2)”
Did the inhabitants of “every nation” of the earth have Samaritan gods in their homes? Of course not. This passage concerns a local area where such practices were the norm. “Every Nation” is simply used to emphasise how widespread this practice was. This is typical eastern hyperbole which all of the passages referenced also do. Its everywhere throughout the Bible:
Was Solomon’s wisdom so impressive that not a single king in all the earth failed to hear of it? Was Solomon visited by Kings from China, Korea and Scandanavia? Or is this verse simply attempting to convey the great amount of renown that Solomon had throughout the ancient Biblical world?
But each passage that the author of this article provided in fact also clarifies that we are only dealing with the surrounding neighbors to Israel. Observe:
Notice that it says “all the surrounding peoples” in both passages? The Bible sometimes uses hyperbole, but it always clarifies exactly what it is specifically referring to. It is only referring to the surrounding nations of the land, not the entire earth.
—”In the Armageddon war, the sun and the moon are darkened but not in the G/M war”
Show where the Gog and Magog war says that the sun and w moon will not be darkened. It never says any such thing. A lack of proof is simply a lack of proof. Apparently, the individual that wrote this article never took Logic 101.
—”Gog comes from the North (Ezek 38:6, 15), while at Armageddon, the armies come from out of the whole earth.(Joel#:2, Zech12:3 and 14:2) “
Wrong. The Army of Joel, which the author of your article claims is the Armies of Antichrist is clearly defined as coming from the North and are Muslim nations. The author of this article didn’t do their homework.
–” comes to take a spoil (Ezek 38:11-12), while at Armageddon the nations of the earth assemble themselves together specifically to destroy the people of God.”
So Antichrist doesn’t come to take spoil? Wrong again.
–” Gog is the head of the armies at his invasion (Ezek.38:15), but at Armageddon the beast Beast is at the head of the invasion (Rev. 19:19) “”
No need to even answer this one. Same person different title. Or maybe Jesus cannot be God because Jesus’ name is Jesus and God is called God. Same poor logic.
—”There is a protest against Gog’s invasion (Ezek. 38:13), but at Armageddon there is no such protest because all the nations of the earth have joined themselves with the Beast in his attack against Jerusalem.”
Again, a lack evidence is simply a lack of evidence. No where does it say that no one will protest Armageddon. Once again, Logic 101
–” Gog is overthrown by divine intervention through the convolutions of nature (Ezek 38:22) , but the armies at Armageddon are destroyed by the sword which goes out of Christ’s mouth (Rev 19:15) and by the Lord my God and ALL the saints (Zech 14:5). ”
Gog is also clearly described as being destroyed supernaturally. Read the passage.
There are many varied descriptions of the AC death and judgment. I provided some of the verses in my last post.
—”Gog’s armies array themselves in the open fields (Ezek 39:5) while at Armageddon they are seen in the city of Jerusalem (Zech 14:2; Rev. 11:2).”
Armageddon is an open field. Been there. Secondly these passages are not describing one single event but many events summarized. They are not detailed play by play narratives, they are prophecies. Again consider what I discussed with the Isaiah 9 “Unto us a Son is Given” passage.
–”Gog’s armies are destroyed outside of Jerusalem on the mountains and in the valleys (Ezek39:2-4) and take 7 months for the people of Jerusalem to bury, while the Beast and his armies are destroyed in the city of Jerusalem itself (Zech 12:2; 14:2) “
So the entire world is now going to fit in the city of Jerusalem? Please…
And which open fields outside of Jerusalem is this author speaking about? Jerusalem is surrounded by desert hills and villages. Oye vey!
–”The Lord calls for assistance in executing judgement on Gog (Ezek 38:21), while at Armageddon He is viewed as treading the winepress alone. - (Rev. 19:15; Isaiah 63:3-6).”
Sadly, another completely nonsensical point. At Armageddon Jesus is going to come out of Heaven with all of his armies correct? This author hasn’t even thought through this. It appears as if the author’s point was simply to make a list that non-thinkers would be impressed by…
–”The invasion by Gog will be sudden and will come with relatively little warning (Ezek. 38:11)”
Says who? Where does it says any of this? Again, a lack of evidence is simply no evidence….
For now Rasul remember that you need to think for yourself rather than relying on other people’s arguments. Answering questions posed to you is the best way to personally sharpen your own thoughts. If you do this, then it tells me that you are indeed thinking and are not merely a time waster who is determined to argue…
Bless you,
Joel
September 20th, 2007 at 8:31 am
Hi Joel,
Concerning “all” here is one I like to use because it is from Daniel 2 which specifically refers to the 4 kingdoms that will rule over earth.
37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
This says that where ever men dwelt Nebuch was ruler over them all. We know that Nebuch/Babylon never fully ruled over the earth just the middle east. Since Babylon is the prime example of the 4th kingdom we can expect similar traits. Babylon never fully reigned over the earth so there is no requirement that the AC does either.
Peace,
Seeker
September 20th, 2007 at 11:03 am
Joel ,
most of what i typed to you was my own stuff and by the way I have answered you you just dont like the answers and you dont like others to point stuff out , and you tell me and you may say the post i printed was lame , and thats your right , and you think by downing me when i say shalom or peace and calling me hallow , look ive given my answrs cant you read them ? man the only time i copied something on this post was my last comment and by the way you post things you have already wrote correct ? well why cant i post something i agree with ?
September 20th, 2007 at 11:44 am
“It took me a while to realize that the Beast is the Empire moreso than than the Antichrist. Thi is actually far more consistant with the Book of Daniel where Beasts are Empires and not people. So there is no real reference to an individual coming back to life but there are several references to an Empire coming back to life.”
:D
Same here, i grew up on Jack and Hal and they always said it was a man. Then one night i decided to look into it myself and something bothered me and i realized that the beast was not a person but an empire, it is a night i have never forgotten because it was a night that transformed my way of seeing the bible.
As I have mentioned before, and I wish to send this to you Joel one day. I wrote a paper (still in draft section) when i was in college, that really changed my out look on the bible, it was a paper identifying the 7th empire, but at that time i did not realize that there was an 8th one. It was a few years later where i figured out that the 7th was the Ottoman and that we are indeed waiting for the 8th one.
September 20th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
Rev. 19 and 20 seems to give a parallel to Ezekiel 38 and 39.
Rev. 19
7″Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.”
8It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and lean, were following Him on white horses.
15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
17Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God,
18so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of [a]commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”
19And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
Rev: 20
8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
9And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Ezekiel 39:
4″You will fall on the mountains of Israel, you and all your troops and the peoples who are with you; I will give you as food to every kind of predatory bird and beast of the field.
5″You will fall on the open field; for it is I who have spoken,” declares the Lord GOD.
6″And I will send fire upon Magog and those who inhabit the coastlands in safety; and they will know that I am the LORD.
7″My holy name I will make known in the midst of My people Israel; and I will not let My holy name be profaned anymore And the nations will know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
17″As for you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD, ‘Speak to every kind of bird and to every beast of the field, “Assemble and come, gather from every side to My sacrifice which I am going to sacrifice for you, as a great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel, that you may eat flesh and drink blood.
18″You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, as though they were rams, lambs, goats and bulls, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19″So you will eat fat until you are glutted, and drink blood until you are drunk, from My sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20″You will be glutted at My table with horses and charioteers, with mighty men and all the men of war,” declares the Lord GOD.
22″And the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God from that day onward.
21″And I will set My (Z)glory among the nations; and all the nations will see My judgment which I have executed and My hand which I have laid on them.
Thus i conclude that Ezekiel and Revelation are talking about the same event.
September 20th, 2007 at 12:50 pm
wHEN WE DEBATE IT SHOULD BE DONE IN LOVE AND RESPECT ALL IN ALL YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH CHRIST IS ALL THAT MATTERS.
JOEL I THEN WOULD SAY IM A PRE MILLINIALIST TO. LAST NIGHT COMMENT WAS A JOKE TO LIGHTEN THE AIR. BUT TRUE I DON’T WHAT TO BELIEVE. I JUST KNOW I’LL BE READY .
September 20th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
BOY I BLUNDERED THAT ONE. WHAT IM TRYING TO SAY IS I DON’T KNOW WHITCH IS RIGHT BUT WHEN HE COMES BACK I’LL BE READY.
September 20th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
RASULJACOB
DONT STOP BLOGGING, EVERYONE SEES THINGS DEFFERENT IF I SAY THE SKY IS BLUE AND YOU SAY THE IT IS LIGHT BLUE. THATS OK THE BIG PICTURE IS THE SUN IS OUT. IT WAS EXCITING HOW YOU AND JOEL WELCOMED ALFY TO GROUP AND ALFY IS RIGHT WE ARE BROTHERS AND WOULD LIKE TO TALK WITH OTHER PEOPLE OF LIKE MINDS
GOD BLESS ALL
WE LIVE IN EXCITING TIMES
September 20th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
http://endtimepilgrim.org/clevetta_gog.htm
I read this article and what stood out to me was the condescension he has for people that do not see it the way he believes it.
“I believe that the Gog Magog war and the Armageddon wars are two separate wars.” This is a legitimate claim.
“This confusion has been aided and abetted by pastors and teachers who should know better.” This is where he detracts from the his legitimate claim. He compounds it with this:
“Why has this knowledge not filtered down to the churches from the seminaries from which it was first made? Why? - because when one finally admits to the differences, certain conclusions with regard to the United States and its involvement in the Middle East become inevitable - conclusions which the vast majority of American christians are simply not prepared to accept.” He turns it into a conspiracy as to why people do not believe like he does, which from the start is the only way to believe these passages.
In the first paragraph he detracts from any form of credibility that the rest of his argument may hold. He holds a form of condescension and conspiracy as to why people do not believe the way they should.
Which leads me to conclude that this person has nor formal education in basic writing or even putting an argument together to ensure that your beliefs and ideas are accepted as “credible”. Just looking over the page i see, or, at least perceive, that he is not familiar with, at least, with Hebrew or Greek. I would bet that he is using a KJV bible, which may make him a KJVO person.
I would agree with you Joel “And even worse, it was a very lame article at that.”
September 20th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
For what it is worth, I have deleted rasuljacob’s last few posts. His final post was essentially a condemnatory rant complete with curses against me etc. Please know that I am quite quite fine with varying opinions on this blog and most often welcome dissent. In this brother’s case, he was sending me several e-mails every day which I felt were often too personal and showed signs of emotional instability. Obviously his last post was quite aggresive and far too emotional for my comfort. All said, I’m banning rasul from the blog but certainly wish him well…
September 20th, 2007 at 5:14 pm
Ok all is fine. lets get to some exciting endtime news. hey i watch a good dvd last night from v.o.m (Voice of the martyrs) underground reality vietnam. very very good and touching.
September 20th, 2007 at 5:46 pm
How wonderful to work on a book with Wallid!
Congratulations. I will want to know the name and when I can purchase this book, so keep us all updated.
Anyway I believe one of Wallid’s most intresting points on the prophecy tape was that God liked to use nicknames for satan. King of Babylon, King of Tyre and Wallid felt that includedthe name Gog.
If that is correct and reading Isa. 14 and Ezk 28 I think that Wallid may have a point. Out of nowhere we see that God has spoken often against Gog,(Ezk.38:17) yet where? So if Wallid is correct that God uses nicknames, then this verse 17 becomes very intresting.
A revived empire I still do not feel that will be the great delusion that is spoken of in Thess. There are several scriptures where the antichrist is wounded unto death and then comes back from the dead. Satan as you all know is the great imitiator ( I spell horrid, sorry).
God is the one who will allow and LIMIT satans power. After all the false prophet is allowed to imitate Elijha bringing down fire.
But concerning my first point, there is no reason why both these lines of thought cannot fit this scripture. Revived empire and a single leader,the antichrist would both fit in as: what was, is not, and what will be.
I can’t find the scripture I want for this last remark. And I have paraphrased it, and I hope you all will know what scripture I mean. I will find it.
I am enjoying reading eveyones remarks and would like to know how many of you have Wallids teaching at a certain prophecy conference from March 2007. My husband and I ordered the CD’s and since Wallid teaches, rather than preaches ( his words) he goes to scriptures all over the Bible which we love. Glad it is on a CD so we can watch over and over. lol
Wallid, who for someone brought up in a cult has come far in his depth of knowledge. I was brought up in a cult myself, and after Jesus saved our family, my husband and I began our great love and study of prophecy.
But not the best memory as to where each scripture I want is located. very frustrating.
God Bless
September 20th, 2007 at 6:49 pm
I found it, Rev. 17:8 and 9-11 are good.
“When they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”
I was looking in the wrong place in Rev. Thank you
God Bless
September 20th, 2007 at 6:57 pm
Alfy,
What makes you think that the Beast is a man and not an Empire? What do Beasts represent in Daniel? Men or Empires?
September 20th, 2007 at 10:23 pm
Good Question. They were empires ruled by one man. I find to much scripture stating that the antichrist is a man. Perhaps I am not making myself clear.
I realize that the beasts were empires, but they each had one person who was the King. Each King answered to no one, he was the goverment so to speak, so I see in scripture a antichrist and a false prophet who head up a one world empire.
Or am I misunderstanding your question? Do you believe the Bible teaches that an antichrist will arise? Or do you believe a revived empire will arise with no one person in charge?
I guess iIf we all believed the exact same thing in prophecy, we would probably get bored talking to each other, as we would already know what the other was going to say. lol
That is why I enjoy talking with others to hear what they believe. I am constantly learning that what I assume a person would agree on with me on a section of prophecy is not often true at all. lol
So then I will learn from them, and search the Bible to see if I agree or the scriptures I find that show me otherwise.
Do you by chance Joel have those CD’s on Wallid teaching at the March Prophecy conference?
God Bless
September 20th, 2007 at 10:57 pm
I believe that there will be an Antichrist. However, when Revelation says Beast, we must be careful not to assume that it is speaking about the A C, when in fact it is usually speaking of the Kingdom.
September 21st, 2007 at 12:12 am
I never cursed at you that is untrue shame on you
September 21st, 2007 at 12:56 am
search online and type rasuljacob and see the comments joel deleted and judge for yourself , It shows the truth .
thank you . this is why he pushed me out shame on him saying mental issues that is wrong and cheap blow.
September 21st, 2007 at 5:54 am
rasul,
Your full comments are most certainly not there on Google, which means that you personally deleted them and are in fact being deceitful.
But since this is obviously upsetting you, for clarity’s sake: by curse, I did not intend to claim that you swore or said cuss words, but rather that you were calling down curses on me by expressing very angrily that I’d be sorry and that I am going to fall and that sort of thing. When you say, I never cursed… “shame on you”. This is also what I meant by curse. The power of life or death is in the tongue. I do not recieve your shame nor your desire for my fall etc. For what it is worth, I prayed that all would be well with you and I would hope that you would do the same rather than calling for my down-fall.
I will delete any and all further comments that you make. Do not send me e-mails nor post under a different name. Please just go your way and be blessed.