When does the Gog of Magog Invasion take place?

Over the past several years, I have argued extensively for the view that the invasion of “Gog of Magog”, as prophesied in Ezekiel 38 and 39 is simply another retelling of the many Antichrist prophecies found throughout the Bible. In other words, Gog is simply another name for Antichrist. My most thorough argument for this view is found in my most recent book Mideast Beast, though several articles addressing this view can be found in the articles section of this website as well. Although many students of prophecy today believe that the “Gog of Magog” invasion of Israel as described in Ezekiel 38 and 39 takes place either just before or just after the beginning of the final seven years leading up to the return of Jesus, a much smaller number believe that this invasion takes place at the end of the Millennium. This is the view which I seek to address in this brief article.

Most who view the Gog of Magog invasion of Ezekiel 38,39 as being a post-millennial event, arrive at this position because they assume that Ezekiel’s Gog of Magog invasion must be the same as the “Gog and Magog” invasion that takes place at the end of the Millennium as described in Revelation 20:7-9. Let’s look at that text:

When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. Revelation 20:7-9

The first observation is that this invasion will be an utter failure. Before the invaders even begin to accomplish their desire, they are consumed by fire. But as we will see, the invasion described in Ezekiel 38-39 is far from a failure. By the time that Ezekiel’s Gog Magog invasion is defeated, a majority of Israel is actually exiled as captives among the nations. Second, Revelation’s Gog Magog invasion doesn’t even actually enter the “camp of the saints”, but is devoured by fire as they surround the “camp.” On the other hand, the invaders of Ezekiel are destroyed in the actual land of Israel.

Why then the similarity of names? In my opinion, by the time of the writing of the Book of Revelation in the 1st century, the term Gog and Magog had become a well-known motif or expression, similar to the common use of “armageddon” or “apocalypse” today. We might say for example something like, “It was a financial armageddon on Wall Street today”. But this has nothing to do with the valley of Meggiddo in Israel. It simply means any great catastrophe. Likewise, because Ezekiel 38 and 39 was essentially the greatest prophetic passage in the Old Testament concerning the final Satanic invasion of Israel, or what we might rightly call, “the Armageddon of the Old Testament”, the phrase “Gog and Magog” simply came to be understood as a massive Satanic invasion: Satan and his hordes. But the Gog of the land of Magog of Ezekiel 38,39 and the Gog and Magog of Revelation 20 cannot be one and the same. They are separated by 1000 years. Ezekiel is referring to the Antichrist and the events that take place just prior to the return of Jesus, and Revelation 20:7-9 is exactly what it says it is; a very brief event that takes place at the conclusion of the Millennium.

Others who hold to the view that Ezekiel’s invasion is at the end of the millennium frequently cite the fact Ezekiel describes Israel as seeming to be living with such a sense of security that it could only refer to the security that will be experienced during the Millennium. To support this notion, the following passage is cited:

In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it? You will come from your place in the far north, you and many nations with you; a mighty army. You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land. I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. I will turn you around and drag you along. I will bring you from the far north and send you against the mountains of Israel. (Ezekiel 38:14-16; 39:1-3)

I would like to explain why this perspective is, in my opinion, untenable and cannot be reconciled with the Scriptural testimony. First, let’s begin by observing that Israel is not truly secure. They are only living in a false state of security. Notice that Gog plans on attacking a people who are described as “unsuspecting”:

You will say, I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people all of them living without walls and without gates and bars. (Ezekiel 38:12, 13)

I believe the issue of Israel living “securely” is merely perceived. I will demonstrate this through Scripture, but first think through this with me. The Israelites are about to be invaded. So are they truly living securely or merely living with a relative sense of security? If a person is sleeping securely in their bed and five murderous, and well-armed thieves are only moments away from breaking into the house to rob and kill, can it truly be said that the unsuspecting person sleeping is secure? Or it is merely a perceived security?

I would also argue that while the Israel of today fully recognizes that various threats surround them, they are not presently suspecting any massive military invasion from a foreign nation. The sense in Israel is one of relative security. It is difficult not to see Ezekiel’s description of Israel as anything other than the Israel of today:

“After many days you will be summoned; in the latter years you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, whose inhabitants have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste; but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them. Ezekiel 38:8

The Israel that Ezekiel describes is a people who have been gathered from many nations. They resettled the land which had formerly been a continual waste. And they are living securely.

Now consider the fact that the Scriptures inform us that the Antichrist will lull Israel into a false state of security through deception, specifically for the purpose of invading the land:

He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power. Daniel 8:25

He will invade the kingdom when its people feel secure, and he will seize it through intrigue. Daniel 11:21

When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them and will achieve what neither his fathers nor his forefathers did. He will distribute plunder, loot and wealth among his followers. He will plot the overthrow of fortresses—but only for a time. Daniel 11:24

So we have seen that the method and scheme of the Antichrist is exactly that of Gog. Again, this is simply because they are simply one and the same.

Now juxtapose the passage concerning the unsuspecting and peaceful state of Israel before the invasion, with their state immediately after the defeat of the Gog of Magog invasion. This passage is absolutely critical to properly understand how serious the Gog of Magog invasion truly is:

“The nations will know that the house of Israel went into exile for their iniquity because they acted treacherously against Me, and I hid My face from them; so I gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and all of them fell by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I dealt with them, and I hid My face from them.”’” Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, “Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name. They will forget their disgrace and all their treachery which they perpetrated against Me, when they live securely on their own land with no one to make them afraid. When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations. Ezekiel 39:24-27

A few observations need to be made. First, many claim that the Gog of Magog invasion is foiled and is not successful. But this is absolutely not true. The passage above absolutely does not allow for it! What the above passage shows is that through the Gog of Magog invasion, many from Israel will once again go into exile and captivity. But after the destruction of the Gog of Magog hordes, the Lord also declares that he will forget Israel’s sins which they comitted against him when they lived securely. This is key. As we saw above, this is clearly a description of the Israel of today. The majority have been regathered from the nations, yet the majority are also living in rebellion towards the Lord. Notice that after the destruction of Gog and his armies, then many Jews are being brought back from captivity. If they began in the land and are out of the land as captives at the end of the invasion, how can anyone say that the invasion was not successful?

Further Arguments:

Another issue is the fact that the Lord states that all of the other (pre-Ezekielian) prophets spoke about Gog:

You are the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel. At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them. Ezekiel 38:17

If all of the other prophets before Ezekiel spoke of the Gog invasion at the end of the Millennium, then where are these many references? One will be very hard pressed to produce a single such reference, though it is quite easy to find many Antichristic prophecies among these prophets.

Ezekiel 38,39 ends with all of the nations coming to know the Lord. Israel comes to know the Lord. Israel returns from captivity, The Lord pours out His spirit on Israel. They are secure from that day forward. The Lord will no longer allow his name to be blasphemed. If we place this at the end of the Millennium, then we are faced with an insurmountable problem. For we must by necessity believe that after 1000 years with Jesus present and ruling over Israel, the Jews and the gentiles still do not know the Lord. While Ezekiel’s passage begins with Israel having been regathered from among the nations, living securely (but in rebellion), we would have to believe that this would be their state throughout the entire Millennium. In my opinion, this is simply impossible to reconcile with Scripture. Zechariah 12 says that they repent when he returns on the clouds, not 1000 years later. During the Millennium, the knowledge of God will cover the earth as the waters covers the sea. The Law will go forth from Jerusalem etc., etc., etc.

Another issue is the “Great Feast”. Why would The Book of Revelation have used “the Great Feast” of Ezekiel 38-39 as the pre-text for “the Great Feast” of Revelation 19:17-21 if the two were not the same feast? Why would John quote from a similar but very different passage concerning a massive invasion and apply it to Antichrist? In other words, John clearly applied the Great Feast of the armies of Gog of Magog to the armies of Antichrist. Gog and the Antichrist are one and the same.

Both Ezekiel and Revelation 19 have the armies of Gog/ Antichrist being either eaten by the birds and beasts, or captured, whereas Revelation 20 has the armies simply “devoured” by fire. This is another significant difference between the two distinct invasions.

So while there are several other issues that we could address, such as the earthquake issue, any effort to make the Gog of Magog of Ezekiel 38,39 and the Gog and Magog of Revelation 20 one and the same must be able to satisfactorily address these issues.

I hope this brief article has begun to demonstrate why it is not possible for Ezekiel’s “Gog of Magog invasion take place at the end of the Millennium.

42 Responses to When does the Gog of Magog Invasion take place?

  1. Vernon says:

    Joel,

    Revelation 20:5

    The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    Who are these dead people?

  2. Adamant says:

    What if the “Gog and Magog” of the end of the millennium have some similarities with the “Gog of Magog” attack during the tribulation? Then the name might be more than just a 1st century motif of expression.

    Maybe the territories from which Satan’s last attempt comes are similar to those of his last-but-one attempt. And/or it will be a last rise of Islam by Satan at the end of the Millennium, for instance by spreading the lie that this Jesus who has ruled all this time is still Ad-Dajjal (The antichrist of Islam) who has won only temporarily, and that the “true” Isa/Jesus will come at last to defeat him.

    This is highly speculative, but I think it is a serious possibility. It happens in a very far future though, so it has probably no more use for us than adding to the “big picture”.

  3. Greg says:

    Vernon- I am looking forward to Joel’s take on your question. It is one I have put considerable time and study into. Here is my take on it:

    http://theissacharmandate.com/?p=25

    Blessings,

    Greg

  4. Vernon says:

    Thanks for the link Greg!

    It makes good sense.

    I suppose that included in the second resurrection would be the Old Testament saints as well? This particular interpretation also does considerable damage to the pre-tribulation rapture belief.

  5. Jim says:

    Greg, my brother and friend. This is an amazingly well written and powerful blog. I think a few Pastors need to see this.

    Blessings.

  6. Joel says:

    Greg,

    Thanks for the link. As much as I appreciate the post, in my view, the “better resurrection” would pertain to the excellence of life during the resurrection. It would pertain to the rewards or lack therefore in “the resurrection”. This is a phrase commonly used of life during the Millennium. Jesus said for instance that “in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.” But I don’t think it can be said that only those who are martyred will attain the first resurrection. Jesus says that when the trumpet sounds, then it is the elect, not only the martyrs who are gathered:

    And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -Matthew 24:31

    Needless to say, the elect are not only the martyrs, but all those who in Christ (Rom. 8:33, 11:7, 1 Tim 5:21, 2 Tim 2:10,Titus 1:1, 1 Peter 1:1) .

    Or consider Paul’s words:

    But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,fn that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18

    So not only does it not say that only the martyrs will attain the first resurrection, but it says that those whoa re alive and remain (on the earth) after the dead in Christ have been raised will then be caught up. Obviously those who are alive and remain have not been martyred.

    Likewise, Paul says in 1 Corinthians:

    For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:22-24

    Again, those who are resurrected are simply those who are “in Christ”, not only those who have been martyred. That said, I shall nevertheless seek a better resurrection through seeking the honor of laying down my life for the Gospel and to identify with his death that I might identify with his life. I hope this has helped.

    Many Blessings,
    Joel

  7. Kurt J. says:

    Joel,

    Great article, well written and clear. I like both yours and Adamant’s explanation of the “Gog and Magog” reference in Rev 20 – either or both could be the case. I had the same thought before I read Adamant’s comment.

    Kurt J.

  8. Vernon says:

    Joel,

    In this view,is it safe to assume that the Old Testament saints are included? Is “the dead in Christ” encompassing?

  9. Joel says:

    Vernon,

    I would include those who are OT saints.

  10. Alan says:

    Hi Greg!
    Enjoyed your article. I had held for a long time that only those that were martyred for Christ would be resurrected at the Second Coming so that they could take part in ruling during the millennium. I no longer hold this position, mostly for the points outlined by Joel. I do still hold that while ALL Christians will be resurrected at the Second Coming, some will rise to a ‘Better Resurrection’ and have parts in ruling during the millennium.

    Your article seems to pull much of the strength of your position from the point in the scripture Rev. 20: 11-12, 15 regarding the examination of the Book of Life to see if the names of those raised in the Second Resurrection could be found.

    You place emphasis on that second group consisting of both Christians and the Lost, why else bother looking. My take is that the examination of the book for their names is to make the point, to each and every one of them, individually, that each CHOSE to not accept the redeeming work of Christ on the cross, each CHOSE to not accept Salvation, each one CHOSE not to have their name placed in that book. Each will NOT have their name found in the book.

    I see great purpose in examining the Book of Life for names that are already known to not be there. I am reconciled to the understanding that the ‘other dead’ that are resurrected at the end of the millennium are 100% unbelievers, that 100% of the Christians were resurrected at the Second Coming.

    But having so stated, I am of the camp that this determination is a minor, not a major tenant of the Faith, and am therefore neither dogmatic nor proselytizing on this issue. We shall one day see!

  11. Greg says:

    Thanks for the comments and feedback regarding my article on the better resurrection. Joel, I especially appreciate your perspective and the scriptures you cited.

    To be clear, a careful reading of the article will show that I do not limit the first resurrection to include only martyrs, but also those who have overcome. Revelation 20:4 clearly references two groups who ruled with Christ: Those who sat on thrones, and those martyred. In Jesus’ letters to the seven churches, He made several promises that are clearly fulfilled during the Millennium:

    Rev. 2:11 “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches; He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death.”

    Notice that the promise is made to those who overcome. Why make this promise if all believers are not going to be hurt of the second death? He is writing to believers, these comments seem to imply that being a believer and being one who overcomes are not necessarily the same thing. The promises are only made to those who overcome. The clear implication is that those who do not overcome will not partake of the promise.

    Rev. 2:26-27 “And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.”

    A promise clearly fulfilled during the Millennium to those who overcome. Certainly this will include all martyrs, but nowhere does it limit the promise to them.

    Rev. 3:21 “To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”

    Again, a promise made to all who overcome (including all martyrs) and fulfilled in Rev. 20:4. So I do not limit the First Resurrection to martyrs, but to all (in all ages) who have overcome whatever the Lord required of them to overcome.

    I suspect that when Paul makes comments about “we”, as seen in the scriptures cited by Joel, he is making a statement of faith. Sort of like when the writer of Hebrews says in chapter 10:39 that, “we are not of them who draw back…” I am sure that some of the recipients of the letter did in fact draw back, but the writer is addressing those who will not. Does this make any sense to you, Joel?

    I also agree with Alan (good comments too!) that this is not a major issue, and time will prove all things. It is only an issue with me because I feel it adds urgency to the need to press toward the mark for the prize if the high calling, an attitude that is so lacking in the American Church in these perilous days. But there is certainly room for differing viewpoints, and some of you may very well be correct about a better resurrection referring to positions of honor and leadership in the coming Kingdom rather than referring to the timing. If true, that is certainly no less motivation to live for God and to seek His glory every day.

  12. Jim says:

    Vernon;, those such as Daniel trusted in their Messiah without ever seeing him or exactly how he’d accomplish their salvation. That is true faith. To not reward it would not be consistent with God’s nature. I personally can’t wait to meet them!

  13. barasheet says:

    I see the old hoary head has risen re pretrib rapture denigrators,again but Ill let it lie. My comment is to say the first resurrection is a qualitative one not a chronological one, ie as the First and second death, the first and second birth. I also add this that it is the elect of God which He chose in before the foundations of the world as in here,

    Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    and here,

    Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    Also like to agree with you Joel re Ezekiel 38 and 39. I suggest a reading of Isaiah chapters 10 to at least 29 to see how this appears to follow Gods dealing with the said geographic areas in thew middle east during the end times..I began to read Isaiah with a differing understanding when I connected the Woman in Rev 12 with nearly the same discription in Isaiah 26,27 and also the other maniplayer in this passage, the old dragon of all. I then read backward and ended up back at Isaiah 10, and forward to 29. Here is what I mean..

    Isa 26:17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.
    Isa 26:18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.

    Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
    Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

    Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea: compare

    Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
    Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
    Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
    Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

    Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
    Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
    Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
    Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

    My take on this is the elect Israelites won to the Lord via the two witnesses and the 144,000 jewish missionaries, the manchild ( I accept that some see Christ here but I believe the chronology is way wrong),again chosen by God, have convinced the third of Israel that is included in the ‘All Israel shall be saved” is the ones secreted in the chamber while the indignation passes. The rest of the hardened sinners of Israel are slaughtered by the Antichrists 3.5 years campaigns.. I am open to suggestions where this scenario is wrong.. But The more I read rev, Daniel, Zechariah, the more I see the players in the endtimes mentioned over and over another example..Isaiah 14,Isa 14:25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.
    Isa 14:26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.
    Isa 14:27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

    I also understand there was historical fulfillment but not to the letter..Anyway keep it up

  14. Steve says:

    Greg, I think you are splitting hairs. John says we are all, “a kingdom of piests”. Rev 1:6. This is the same John who wrote, “For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world,even our faith.” 1Jhn 5:4. (same Greek word) This is for all of us who are “born again”. All of our works will be tested. 1Cor3:10-15. But even the least faithful will still be a priest and enter into the joy of the Lord. Matt 25:14-30. So there will be no boasting except in Christ.The 5th seal martyrs do have a special place in the millennium, but we will all be, “Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him 1000 years.” Rev 20:6. This will be in whatever capacity God has already chosen for us. We must not forget about the “spirits of just men made perfect”. Heb12:23. I believe these are the millennium saints who have died. This correlates to,”Then comes the end”. Paul is only talking of those “in Christ”. So at the end of the millennium, they must be raised and translated. The Bride was completed at Rev 19. So these are people redeemed by Christ, but not part of the Bride, just as angels are not… And also about Gog. Ezek 39:11-16 tells us Gog and his hord is already buried. So yes, God is just using a familar term for all the nations Satan will bring against Mt Zion. (Isa 2)They will come against the holy city just as Gog did before, and they will be destroyed. Peace, in the Lord! :)

  15. Vernon says:

    Amen Jim!

    I share your excitement!

    Many blessings brother.

    Alan,

    those are some insightful comments on Greg’s article. As someone relatively new to the study of Eschatology, my thinking is continuously challenged and evolves with every amazing post by Joel, followed by all the insightful comments from a host of readers, such as Greg, Jim, Good4u and yourself. I am truly blessed to have been led of the Lord to this site!

    Blessings,

    Vernon

  16. The feasting by birds that John and Ezekiel refer to can be the same thing.

    Quoting the Old Testament in the New Testament is not exactly unheard of.

    Besides, why can’t there be the feasting on dead flesh, when the soul is cast into Sheol/Hades. After all, we are spirit, and we are flesh.

  17. Dave says:

    Hi Joel,
    I’ve read a book titled Red Moon Rising by Peter Goodgame. It’s a good book which has a somewhat different take on the sequence of events of the end times which is well supported by his studies. In it he proposes that it is erroneous to place the beginning of the seventieth week of Daniel at the opening of the first Seal. Instead, he believes that the first five Seals precede the seventieth week and correlate with the birth pangs Jesus spoke of.

    The reason I bring this up is that he also believes that the Day of the Lord spoken of in Rev. 6:12-17 (the sixth Seal) correlates with events spoken of in Joel 2:31 and Isaiah 2: 10-22 which is soon followed by the Rapture. He also correlates the first Trumpet judgment (Rev. 8:1-7) with God’s destruction of the armies of Gog and Magog (Ezk. 38:18- Ezk. 39: 6). Then will come the covenant between Israel and the Antichrist. Anyway, I wonder if in the confusion and destruction of this Day of the Lord, no one would question why suddenly millions of Christians are missing because they assume it is due to the massive worldwide earthquake and the ensuing confusion.

    Finally, he believes that some war with Israel will occur prior to the Gog and Magog invasion which causes Israel to finally feel secure in her borders, possibly a local war with Hamas/Hezbollah/Syria. Their defeat leaves Israel feeling secure for once, however it somehow leads to the Gog and Magog invasion (possibly Turkey/Iran?). Again, my summary might be a little inaccurate, but I didn’t see anything in his book that seemed outrageous. Let me know if you’re familiar with this work

    Dave

  18. Joel says:

    David,

    Yes, my point is that they must be the same thing. There is no other such feast mentioned in Scripture. I also believe Jesus was harkening to this when he spoke of the vultures gathering.

  19. SMA says:

    The living without walls, peace issues always bothered me too. It is certainly not now nor nearby. However, we have no idea what exactly will happen in the next few years. Things could work out very differently than we expect. Highly unlikely though considering the enormous enmity rising up against Israel from literally everywhere, and so until we witness differently I will go with Joel’s interpretation as it seems the most logical.

  20. Joel says:

    SMA,

    In my opinion, there shouldn’t be a problem with this passage speaking of the Israel of today. The “without walls” is simply a reference to the lack of fortified villages and cities as was a common practice in ancient times. aMany point to the wall that runs through portions of the West Bank. But the purpose of the passage is not to say that the land doesn’t have any walls whatsoever. Simply that as I said, there are not walled villages and so forth. But clearly the reference to the people having resettled the ancient ruins having been gathered from the nations, yet living in rebellion against the Lord is a perfect description of the Israel of today. Again, just my opinion. God knows best.

    Blessings

  21. Steve says:

    Joel,I agree that the Ezek feast and Rev must be the same event. But I believe the the “eagles” Luk 17:37,Matt 24:28, is speaking of the resurrection. Let me explain: The word “coming” is used in Matt 24:27, This is parousia-presence, advent. Same word that is in all of the resurrection/rapture verses. 1Th4:15,23,2Th2:1,1Cor15:23. The context of Luke 17 is all about the resurrection and rapture. One taken another left. So staying in context, Isa 40:31 is what I believe is in view. This is a resurrection verse. The “eagles” are really angels and cherubs that take our soul to heaven when we die, or are translated. Luk16:22,2Ki2:11-12. And of course, bring our souls back at the resurrection. Which is the gathering together in heaven in Mar13:27,Matt24:31,1Th4:14,putting them together with our new bodies. I found this is not the same event as Rev 19. The word parousia, or just coming, (just coming and going is not used). I belive Matt 25:31 is in view here. So we have the big “advent” in Matt 24. The parables,at the start of 25, and the “possession” of the kingdom at the end. This corresponding to Rev 19. So where is the “advent” in Rev? It is in Rev 6:16. “Fall on us and hide us from the “face” of Him who sits on the throne,and from the wrath of the Lamb.” “Face” is prosopon-face,a part of the body;by extension:in someones presence, sight. So the events are seperated by the wrath of God. All the signs Jesus spoke of are here, along with the day of the Lord starting now. The next thing we read of is the sealing of the 144,000 of Israel to make it through the wrath of God. And we then see the multitude in heaven having come out of the great tribulation.(the church/saints)The trumpets then start to hurt the earth. So, I do believe the pre-wrath position has the least problems as to the timing of the resurrection/rapture/day of the Lord. I have studied the various views out for over 20 years. Was pre when I was first saved, went to post becuse of Matt 24. Then when I read Rosenthals book it clicked for me.The biggest problem was how to reconcile Matt 24, and Rev 19. I found it by the word in Rev 6:16, and that little verse, Matt 25:31. Hey, Thanks for the Book Joel! Your teaching on Dan 9:26 was enough to change my view from Roman to Islamic Antichrist. I saw the error of my thinking right away. Thanks again! Peace, in the Lord! :)

  22. It’s not related to this thread, but I find it interesting that Erdogan wants Gulen held accountable for the blockade running of a few years ago.

    http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/2572746-turkish-police-detain-al-qaida-suspects.html#.1264-stage-set2-3

  23. Joel says:

    David,

    A friend send me a text highlighting the fact that just a few years ago, Erdogan praised the IHH for its sponsorship of the Marmara Flotilla, but today the IHH has been raided for connections to Al-Qaeda.

  24. good4u says:

    Hey Joel,

    This does not fit and o/t, but did you see the manifesto from KSM of 9/11…I would love to know if you have any comments or is it not worth commenting on. I read parts and truly a rock hard believer of Islam if there ever was one and in a sense scary.

    You don’t have to post this here, I just wanted you to review it.

    Link: http://data.huffingtonpost.com/documents/1004897-khalid-sheikh-mohammads-statement

  25. good4u says:

    Hey Joel,

    Sorry, I keep going off topic here, but relevance dictates the writing on the biblical prophetic wall…

    Reading this insightful commentary from Dr. Mordechai Kedar, an Israeli scholar on Arab and Islamic studies shows we are frightful close to beginning Iranian hegemony in the volatile Mideast.

    Quote from the link: “…Iran will continue to be what it is – a dark and radical state, controlled by a group of narrow-minded ayatollahs who are stirring up the Sunni-Shi’i conflict and who threaten world peace with doomsday weapons that are meant to impel humanity into uncontrolled chaos, thus bringing about the return of the Mahdi – the hidden imam – to impose the Shi’ite religion on the Sunni Islamic world in the first phase, and on all other parts of the world in the last phase. This is their world view, and it is their declared goal.”

    Link here: http://mordechaikedarinenglish.blogspot.com/2013/06/rouhani-and-iranian-deceit.html

    Blessings!

  26. Michael says:

    This battle is not about the Antichrist because he is cast alive into the lake of fire in revelation 19:20 and Gog is buried according to Ezekiel 39:11. I would have to go with the battle of Ezekiel 38 and 39 taking place in Revelation 20:7-10.

  27. Joel says:

    HI Michael,

    Since I have answered this objection several other times, I just went ahead and made a post about this issue. I hope that it is helpful.

    If you would claim that Ezekiel’s Gog invasion takes place at the end of the Millennium, would you also claim that Israel does not come to the Lord until the end of the Millennium?

    Ezekiel 39:22-29 are quite clear that Israel does not come to faith until after the destruction of Gog and his armies. Yet Zechariah 12:10 informs us that Israel all repents when Jesus returns. This issue alone, in my opinion, makes viewing Ezekiel’s Gog invasion and Revelation 20′s Gog invasion as the same, impossible. But as always, God knows best.

    Blessings!

  28. Dave says:

    This is slightly off subject, but I’ve wondered about this. If the Antichrist has enough control of Jerusalem/Temple Mount to pull off his abomination of the Temple, why is it necessary for him to invade Israel at the end of Revelation? Why is it necessary for an invasion from east of the Euphrates if they are the forces of the Antichrist and he has control of Israel?

  29. Dirk says:

    “If you would claim that Ezekiel’s Gog invasion takes place at the end of the Millennium, would you also claim that Israel does not come to the Lord until the end of the Millennium?”

    Joel,

    The phrase you are referring to is “you shall know that I am the Lord.” That phrase is used repeatedly throughout the scriptures:
    “Exodus 14:4
    And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord.”
    “Deuteronomy 29:6
    You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the Lord your God.””

    The phrase is used numerous times throughout the Bible. This is something God is constantly reiterating to His people, and I don’t think the use in Ezekiel 39,if applied to the end of the millennium, has the effect that you are suggesting -that the people of Israel “does not come to the Lord.” I think the expression does not suggest novelty or originality in discovering God(since the phrase has already been used by God many times in the past), but is talking about giving a clear current (to Ezekiel 39)impression of who God is.

    Even if the phrase “know that I am the Lord” is not a statement of emphasis, and assuming the phrase was in fact a statement of personal understanding and coming into relationship with God, I see no verse in Ezekiel 39 or elsewhere to suggest that either A. Israel cannot forget their God (I feel certain that they can do so) and later have God made known to them, or B. That the phrase as spoken in Ezekiel 39 isn’t simply being applied to a faction of Israel just now coming to the Lord.

    There might be other possibilities as well, but I don’t think your explanation that “Israel does not come to the Lord” is a mandatory conclusion should we interpret Ez. 39 as being a post-millennial event.

  30. Joel says:

    Dirk,

    First, my argument is that Ezekiel 38,39 is just before the millennium, no at the end. The Revelation 20 event is clearly different from the Gog Magog event of Ezekiel.

    Now, I agree with you that the mere reference to God declaring that Israel will know Him, by itself would not be sufficient to show that this is the coming to Jesus moment for Israel, if you will. However, in Ezekiel, the phrase does not merely say that Israel will know God as if in a passing way. It doesn’t allow for this. It is repeatedly stated in a definitive manner. Second, there are several other key elements of the passage, that together clearly and unarguably show that this is the moment that Paul spoke of when he said that, “all Israel will be saved” and which Zechariah described when Israel turns to the Lord, after having looked upon the one they have pierced. Lets look at the passage:

    “My holy name I will make known in the midst of My people Israel; and I will not let My holy name be profaned anymore. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel. Ez. 39:7

    Not only does the Lord declare that from this day forward, he would no longer allow his name to be profaned, but he also says that the gentiles will know that he is “the Holy One in Israel”. This is the only time this specific phrase is used in all of the Scriptures. Normally it is “the Holy One of Israel” (Kadosh Kadosh Yisrael). But here it is Kadosh Kadosh B’Yisrael. The Lord himself is on the ground and in the land. This is the very parousia, the return of Jesus.

    “Behold, it is coming and it shall be done,” declares the Lord GOD. “That is the day of which I have spoken. (v. 8)

    What Day has he been speaking of? The Day of the Lord of course.

    “Then those who inhabit the cities of Israel will go out and make fires with the weapons and burn them, both shields and bucklers, bows and arrows, war clubs and spears, and for seven years they will make fires of them. (v. 9)

    This passage, clearly pointing to the nature of the millennium, is virtually identical to the references in Micah and Isaiah which describe the millennium as the time when Israel will “beat their swords into plowshares.” In both cases, they are converting weapons into tools for agricultural or domestic purposes.

    Now we come to the specific phrase that you have called into question:

    “And the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God from that day onward. (v. 22)

    This is not a casual reference inferring that the “knowing of God” (yada YHVH) is a passing phase. Instead, it specifically says that this knowing is to be “from that day forward.”

    Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, “Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name. (v. 25)

    This is the day that the Lord says “now” he will restore the fortunes of Jacob. This is describing the very time that God is fulfilling his promises made through the Abrahamic, Davidic and New Covenants.

    “Then they will know that I am the LORD their God because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them again to their own land; and I will leave none of them there any longer.” (v. 28)

    Again, it could not be any clearer. No longer will Israel experience exile (the Judicial punishment for disobedience according to the Mosaic Covenant). The reason they will no longer experience exile, is specifically because they will have the new heart and new spirits described in the New Covenant by both Jeremiah and Ezekiel.

    “I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,” declares the Lord GOD. (v. 29)

    God pours out his spirit on them and promises never again to hide his face from them. This is not a mere partial turning to God moment that they will (or could) later renege on. This is the grand capstone of Israel’s long painful history. They receive his spirit and will also receive resurrected bodies, inheriting all the promises, of the Abrahamic Covenant (The land), the Davidic (Their King) and the New Covenant (new hearts, immortal bodies).

    After this, chapters 40-47 describe the millennial kingdom.

    I hope this has helped.

  31. Perry Brown says:

    Dave,

    During the tribulation, the Antichrist invades and occupies the land of Israel in the process of killing and taking captive Jews and Israelites. This goes on for 3 ½ years (Dn 12:7). However, the battle (I would not call it an invasion) at the end of the tribulation where he gathers the kings and armies of the nations of the earth is not against the Jewish army or even to seek to destroy Jews. He has been accomplishing this for the last 3 ½ years. At the end of the tribulation he gathers many armies in the valley of Jehoshaphat or Armageddon to fight The Jewish Man riding on a white horse and His army. The Antichrist comes to Israel at the end of the tribulation to try to defeat Jesus.

    The reason for the Euphrates River to dry up is related to the awful condition of destruction and chaos the region will be in, on earth and in the air. Probably, the Euphrates River will be the only access for armies to pass through from the east (I would put Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan as the kings of the east, instead of China, Japan, North Korea, etc.). T

    Blessings,

    Perry Brown

  32. Joel says:

    Dave,

    The armies from the east are oppositional armies, not the armies of the Antichrist. The actual Antichrist invasion occurs at the midpoint of the Tribulation. Later these armies gather to fight against Jesus, or as Revelation 19 refers to him as “the rider on the horse.”

    BLessings

  33. Dirk says:

    Joel,

    “First, my argument is that Ezekiel 38,39 is just before the millennium, no at the end. The Revelation 20 event is clearly different from the Gog Magog event of Ezekiel.”

    i understand your position (Ez 39 is pre-millennial). What I am attempting to convey is that I disagree with the implications you attribute to reading Ez39 as a post-millennial event. I disagree with the inconsistency you claim would occur if one were to read Ez 39 as post-millennial.

    “Not only does the Lord declare that from this day forward, he would no longer allow his name to be profaned, but he also says that the gentiles will know that he is “the Holy One in Israel”. ”

    This seems more likely a post-millenial event, to my mind. Why?
    Profaning the name of the Lord is apparently possible during the reign of Christ and even thereafter when Satan, Gog and Magog are gathered for the last rebellion. If Satan is released and has convinced the Ez. 38 nations to rebel against God, that is-at the very least- a rebellion against the authority of God (if not His Name itself). I suppose it is possible that God would somehow allow a total rebellion against his authority and yet somehow supernaturally keep those some rebels from blaspheming His name, but that doesn’t make much sense.

    “he also says that the gentiles will know that he is “the Holy One in Israel”. This is the only time this specific phrase is used in all of the Scriptures. Normally it is “the Holy One of Israel” (Kadosh Kadosh Yisrael). But here it is Kadosh Kadosh B’Yisrael. The Lord himself is on the ground and in the land.”

    I don’t think that conflicts with Revelation 21 (which is after the Gog of Magog battle in Rev 20):
    “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, ‘Look! God’s dwelling place IS NOW among the people, and he will dwell with them.’”

    “This is the very parousia, the return of Jesus.”

    Rev. 22 shows God doing something apparently new or novel with his arrival in Rev 22. I don’t think a case has been made Ez 39:7b is definitively either the advent described in Rev 22 or the arrival of Messiah in Revelation 19.

    “What Day has he been speaking of? The Day of the Lord of course. “Then those who inhabit the cities of Israel will go out and make fires with the weapons and burn them, both shields and bucklers, bows and arrows, war clubs and spears, and for seven years they will make fires of them. (v. 9) This passage, clearly pointing to the nature of the millennium, is virtually identical to the references in Micah and Isaiah”

    That just brings up the question of ‘what day or days are Micah and Isaiah referring to?’

    Let’s look:
    “Is 2: The law will go out from Zion,
    the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
    4 He will judge between the nations
    and will settle disputes for many peoples.
    They will beat their swords into plowshares
    and their spears into pruning hooks.
    Nation will not take up sword against nation,
    nor will they train for war anymore.”

    Now we have a problem. If Is, 2:4 is talking about the time at the start of Messiah’s reign, we are forced to deal with the fact that indeed many nations from the four corners of the earth will in fact be gathered together in 1,000 years in order to make war :
    “Rev 20: when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.”

    I think the most consistent view of Isaiah 2 is to read it as a broad picture of what will happen from the time of Messiah’s arrival at the end of the tribulation all the way through the end of eternity. To read it as referring only to the arrival of Messiah is problematic (as is reading it only as referring to the end of the millennium). So I posit the best answer to what DAY is being referred to is this: Isaiah is not referring to “the Day of the Lord” specifically, but rather to the era that begins with the return of Messiah.

    “This is not a casual reference inferring that the “knowing of God” (yada YHVH) is a passing phase. Instead, it specifically says that this knowing is to be “from that day forward.””

    I think that is a reference to the concept that Israel will no longer stray (having been given a heart of flesh). And I think once again that makes the verse more appropriate for the end of the Millennium. Why?
    “Rev 20: 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.” Here we see that the dead haven’t even been raised yet. the dead “know nothing” per Ec. 9. It seems to make more sense that this impression mentioned above be imparted while Israel is actually alive and capable of knowing.

    “This is the day that the Lord says “now” he will restore the fortunes of Jacob. This is describing the very time that God is fulfilling his promises made through the Abrahamic, Davidic and New Covenants.”

    i don’t have a counterpoint to that argument. I could theorize that perhaps the verse refers to a full restoration and posit that somehow after 1,000 years of reigning, the full glory of Jacob has not been restored by Messiah.. but that’s not quite what the scriptures say. It seems unlikely that Messiah has not restored all things at that point, but I don’t have a better explanation.

    God truly knows.

    “After this, chapters 40-47 describe the millennial kingdom.”

    That may be, but I don’t think that is necessarily a compass for the timing of Ez 39.

    Blessings in Messiah.

  34. Joel says:

    Dirk,

    You claim that during the millennium, the Jews will be able to backslide and rebel against the Lord. This is in complete conflict with the Scriptural testimony. While some of the nations might do so, no where does it say Israel will. In fact, they could not even if they wanted to. For God promises to make them holy. All of Israel is saved when Christ returns. It is not a temporary thing.

    “And in that day I will fnset about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, fnthe Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. Zech 12:9-10

    For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? … and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
    “THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
    HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
    “THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
    WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.” Romans 11:15, 26-27

    “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to fnmake an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. Daniel 9:24

    “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. “They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

    “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD … “I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. (Ezekiel 36:22-27)

    During the millennium the tribes receive their inheritance. But Paul says that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom.” Therefore, we can only conclude that those Jews who are saved will be given immortality and resurrected bodies, in order to inherit the Kingdom. While some gentiles will live who went into the millennium, or were born during this period, they will not inherit the Kingdom, as they will not have resurrected bodies. Thus they will still have the potential to sin and rebel. But there is zero evidence that one could say this of the Jews. As I said, the Scriptural testimony is quite the opposite.

    Blessings

  35. Paul says:

    Joel:

    During the millennium the tribes receive their inheritance. But Paul says that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom.” Therefore, we can only conclude that those Jews who are saved will be given immortality and resurrected bodies, in order to inherit the Kingdom.

    Interesting stuff.

    I’d like to rewind a little before we get to Ezekiel 38/39…

    Joel, how literally/metaphorically do you take the prophecy of the dry bones? The only interpretation I’ve ever heard of it is that it’s the regathering of Israel. And yet its plainest reading is as a straight resurrection prophecy: if one were to read it as a child would then one would conclude that it is simply an account of Israel’s resurrection.

    And who is the “one shepherd” whom God sets over Israel? Again the text says plainly that it is King David himself (not the Messiah) — and therefore he would have to be resurrected beforehand.

    These preceding passages set the stage for Ezekiel 38/39: Israel are now raised from their graves, with David as King over them, just like in the days of old. They enjoy a thousand years in which their “spears are turned into pruning-hooks” (i.e. no more weapons — let alone the IDF’s hi-tech military) and then ‘ole Gog shows up.

    So, to reiterate, Israel are resurrected before the Gog-thing in Ezekiel 38/39.

    …Causes all sorts of timing difficulties with Revelation, but then Revelation itself has internal timing difficulties: it’s apocalyptic literature and is so full of allegory and such a chronological nightmare, that it’s asking for trouble to use it as a timeline (although many prophecy buffs — to borrow Walid Shoebat’s term — do this; many of whose work I enjoy).

    And the refrain “then they will know that I am the LORD” is found in many passages — hence this knowledge of the LORD is not a once-and-for-all thing: either it’s a sort-of divine boast — which is fine, since God is God — or this knowledge of the LORD is very soon forgotten and God has to go and do something else to remind them. I think the former explanation is the likelier.

    …You can burn me as a heretic now.

    ;)

    Blessings,

    Paul.

  36. Joel says:

    Paul,

    I do take chapter 37 as referring to the resurrection, but do not see it as chronologically prior to 38 & 39. In fact, it is a separate and distinct oracular cycle. I also see no reason to see a reference to David as referring to “the son of David”. This is not unusual.

    Blessings

  37. WBPound says:

    Joel, I appreciate your zeal for truth and your passion for helping God’s people be prepared for the days ahead. I just discovered today who you are and have been enjoying reading about some of the eschatological ideas you have. I have been reading through as many of your articles as I can this afternoon, but haven’t been able to read all of them yet. I am trying to find somewhere where you might directly address what I see as the biggest scriptural problem with the Gog/Magog invasion being the same event as the Armageddon war. I thought you would clearly address it in this article, but I don’t see that you have. Here is the issue as well as my honest question to you: If the Gog/Magog invasion happens during a time of relative peace for Israel, and they are unsuspecting of the invasion, how can it happen at the end of the great tribulation? How can it possibly occur then? Jerusalem will have been trampled by the gentiles for 42 months by that point, and the anti-christ will have already entered the temple of God by the mid-point of the 7 years. How can you possibly reconcile this with your view? Also, the motives of Gog are to “seize spoil and carry off plunder.” That seems to clearly contradict the motives of the anti-christ and his armies at armageddon, which will be to simply destroy Christ and His armies. I have wrestled with the Gog/Magog passage for years, both in trying to discern its timing but also its participants. I have come to the confident conclusion that Gog & the anti-christ cannot be the same person, and that the Gog/Magog war cannot be armageddon. I see that you have listed many solid points in other articles for why you hold to your current view. Some of those points make good sense, and I’m open to continuing to explore this. But, I keep coming back to the issue and question I’ve just raised.
    To elaborate even further on my view and what I see happening in the middle east right now…I believe strongly that Vladimir Putin is actually Gog, and that we are quickly approaching the fulfillment of the Gog/Magog war. It is no coincidence that we not only see Iran moving west, but also Russia strategically moving south at this time into Ukraine. I believe strongly that the Gog/Magog war will happen very very soon (and that the blood moon tetrad is actually pointing to the near fulfillment of this event). I believe the earthquake that will happen on the day of the Gog/Magog invasion will cause the Dome of the Rock to fall. This will allow Israel to confidently rebuild their Temple, and soon thereafter, the 7 year covenant will be negotiated.
    I have a lot more I could say, and do very much enjoy discussing these highly relevant issues. I look forward to hearing your response, and would be more than willing to field any specific questions you might have for me at this time.
    In Christ,
    Brandon

  38. Joel says:

    Brandon,

    The Passage begins when the very idea enters Gog’s mind and concludes with the return of Christ. It is a broad passage that copiers a broad span of time. It is obvious that there is yet a time of relative “peace.” even if only perceived.

    If you wish to bring Putin in, then you must also be constant and bring in Ireland, America and virtually every Japhetic nation.

    I hope that brings clarity to my perspective.

  39. WBPound says:

    I appreciate your quick response, and you’ve raised interesting points, but I don’t feel like you’ve really dealt with the issue I raised. Exactly how broad a span of time are you suggesting exists in this passage? Some of the other nations on Earth respond to the Gog invasion by asking, “have you come to capture spoil? Have you assembled your company to seize plunder, to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to capture great spoil?” Why would the nations even be asking these questions if this takes place at the end of the “great tribulation?” By the time of armageddon the world will be a desolation and Christ’s return will be visible to everyone. Also, the text says in Eze 38:18,19 that God is essentially going to rain down hell upon Gog and his invading armies “on the day Gog comes against the land of Israel.” If Gog is the anti-christ, then how do you make sense of this? In light of the fact that the anti-christ will have already invaded Israel at the mid-point of the 7 years, he will have already desecrated the Temple declaring himself to be god, and will have been persecuting Israel & the Church and destroying the better part of the world for a full 3.5 years before he is finally destroyed at armageddon…how can you reconcile that with what Ezekiel says in 38:18,19? It says in both those verses that God will destroy Gog & his hordes “on that day” (the day he invades). How do you reconcile that with your current view?

  40. Joel says:

    Ezekiel 38 and 39 does not describe a singular brief event that occurs sonly at the end of the tribulation. It is summary of events that unfold over a broad period. “In that day” is simply an expression that means in that time, it is not referring to a singular day. Otherwise you must think that the very idea to invade and carry out the planning and invasion all occurs in the same day.

    ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “It will come about on that day, that fnthoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil plan… “Therefore prophesy, son of man, and say to Gog, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “On that day when My people Israel are living securely, will you not know it?..

    The fire that rains down on Gog is exactly what happens after Jesus returns.

  41. WBPound says:

    I’m not wholly convinced yet, but you’ve given me some good things to chew on…
    Also, I’m very curious what your current view on the timing of the rapture is. I honestly promise that I will not engage in a debate with you, regardless of your response. Do you hold to pre-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath, or something else? Just curious, I promise I won’t debate about this, I just wanna know.

  42. Joel says:

    Pre-wrath / Post-trib.

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