The Psalm 83 War?

Does Psalm 83 predict an imminent war that is about to break out in the Middle East? Is Israel about to conquer its surrounding neighbors and occupy their lands, expanding its territories? Some students of prophecy believe this, but is it consistent with Scripture? While it is fair to say that Psalm 83 is a prophetic Psalm with application beyond its original context as an imprecatory prayer written in the 10th Century B.C., the view that it is referring to a specific war that takes place prior to and distinct from other antichristic end time battles, as we will see, stands in direct conflict with Scripture.

Those who teach that Psalm 83 is to be understood as a specific war, distinct from the Battle of Gog of Magog, or other wars of the Antichrist, base their view on a series of inferences and assumptions. We need to understand what these assumptions are. First, proponents of this view point out that the nations listed in Psalm 83 are not listed in Ezekiel 39-39. Despite the fact that this is not entirely true (both passages include Turkey), it is from this observation that the first assumption is made that these passages must be speaking of two separate wars or battles. Then it is observed that the nations listed in Psalm 83 are close to Israel, forming what is often called an “inner ring” of nations, whereas the nations mentioned in Ezekiel 38 and 39 form a larger “outer ring” of nations. So the second assumption is that in the future, Israel will first utterly defeat, even annihilate and occupy, the “inner ring” nations, and then at a later time, engage the “outer ring” of nations in war.

Before we turn to the Scriptures to examine the problems with this theory, it is important to stop and consider exactly what is being proposed by those who teach this theory. One teacher, for example holds that the nations of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon will all be defeated and occupied by Israel:

“Because of this Israeli conquest over the inner circle of the core surrounding Arab populations of Palestinians, Syrians, Saudi Arabians, Egyptians, Lebanese, and Jordanians, Israel’s borders are enlarged, prosperity increases, and national stature is enhanced.” (Israelestine: The Ancient Blueprints of the Future Middle East, Bill Salus)

Other prophecy teachers, seem to differ slightly from this view, teaching that these nations will all simply be “annihilated” by Israel, in what is referred to as “The War of Extermination”. In my opinion, both positions strain the bounds of believability on a few levels. The idea that Israel, a single nation with approximately 6 million Jews, will either subdue and concurrently occupy, or worse yet, “annihilate” several nations with a total population of approximately 170 million Arabs is quite a claim, making Israel responsible for the equivalent of 30 Holocausts. In my opinion, not only is this view difficult to believe, but it also casts the people of Israel in a murderous and imperialistic light far worse than what even the most obsessed anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists, so common throughout the Islamic world, would ever claim.

But let us turn to the primary reason why the popular Psalm 83 War of Extermination theory stands in direct conflict with Scripture. Before we do however, it is necessary to identify which nations are mentioned in Psalm 83. The following chart lists the names of the nations and people as they appear in Psalm 83 as well as their modern equivalents:

Psalm 83 chart

The nations and peoples of Psalm 83

The nations and peoples of Psalm 83

The nations and peoples of Psalm 83

Egypt?

It is important to take note of the fact that the nation of Egypt is not included among the nations listed in Psalm 83. While some have made the claim that the Hagrites correlate to Egypt, this is simply not accurate. When Psalm 83 was written, Egypt was a well known nation. If the Psalmist had intended Egypt to be included among his list of nations, he would simply have listed Egypt. Instead he listed the Hagrites along with the other nation-tribes that occupied the region that makes up modern day Jordan. During the life of Asaph, the author of this Psalm, in the 10th century B.C., the Hagarites were a people who lived in the region of northern Jordan, east of Gilead. Of this, the Scriptures are clear:

“In the days of Saul, they (the tribe of Rueben) made war with the Hagarites, who fell by their hand: and they dwelt in their tents throughout all the east land of Gilead.” —1 Chronicles 5:10

When do the Psalm 83 nations meet their judgment?

The simplest way to demonstrate that the nations of Psalm 83 are not destroyed in a war several years before the return of the Lord, is to examine when the Bible states that these regions will be judged and defeated. As we will see, every name, nation, or region listed in Psalm 83 is specifically mentioned numerous times throughout the prophets as being judged and defeated by Jesus, after He has returned. Lets consider just a few examples from Scripture.

Edom and Moab

The first of the conspirators in Psalm 83 is Edom. Edom refers to the region of southern Jordan and northwestern Saudi Arabia. Moab was Edom’s neighbor just to the North in what is today, central Jordan (see map). There are numerous prophetic passages that portray the ultimate judgment of these peoples and regions in the context of the return of Jesus.

Numbers 24:17-19

Lets begin with Numbers 24:17-19, a prophecy that speaks of the coming King Messiah:

“I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near; a star shall come forth from Jacob, a scepter shall rise from Israel.”

Bible scholars believe this prophecy was among those that were looked to by the Magi in their effort to seek out the Messiah, the King of Israel, the account of which is recorded in the Gospels. But according to the prophecy, who will the King Messiah defeat when he arrives? According to the text, it is both Moab and Edom:

“He shall crush through the forehead of Moab, and tear down all the sons of Sheth. Edom shall be a possession.”

The crushing of the heads of Israel’s enemies here is actually an expansion of the protoevangelic prophecy in Genesis 3:15 wherein the Messiah is predicted to ultimately crush the head of Satan. But here, that victory of the Messiah over Satan and his seed is expanded upon and actual names are given to identify the seed of the serpent. Thus Edom and Moab are the peoples identified.

While proponents of the Psalm 83 War theory claim that Edom and Moab will be utterly annihilated by the Israeli Defense Forces several years before the return of Jesus, the Scriptures tell us that this will be carried out by Jesus when He returns. Why would Jesus need to engage in war and judgment with a people who were annihilated only several years prior?

Isaiah 34, 66

Edom is also judged most clearly by Jesus in Isaiah 34 and 66. Together these two passages form a graphic prophetic picture of the judgment of Edom personally carried out by Jesus, while he is on the earth. The entire chapter of Isaiah 34 is a poetic portrayal of the people of Edom being ritually sacrificed by the Lord Himself. The Lord’s wrath is executed against the people of Edom specifically because of their unjust treatment of Israel:

For my sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; behold, it descends for judgment upon Edom, upon the people I have devoted to destruction. The Lord has a sword; it is sated with blood; it is gorged with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah, a great slaughter in the land of Edom . . . Their land shall drink its fill of blood, and their soil shall be gorged with fat. For the lord has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion. And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into sulfur; her land shall become burning pitch. (vv. 5–9)

The context is the Day of the Lord, the Day of His vengeance. It occurs when Jesus returns. The people of Edom are destroyed specifically as a just recompense for the “cause of Zion”. Later, in Isaiah 63, the same event is described again in very graphic detail:

Who is this who comes from Edom, in crimsoned garments from Bozrah, he who is splendid in his apparel, marching in the greatness of his strength? “It is I, speaking in righteousness, mighty to save.” Why is your apparel red, and your garments like his who treads in the winepress? “I have trodden the winepress alone, and from the peoples no one was with me; I trod them in my anger and trampled them in my wrath; their lifeblood spattered on my garments, and stained all my apparel. For the day of vengeance was in my heart, and my year of redemption had come.” (vv. 1–4)

In this highly dramatic passage, Isaiah the prophet is looking south-eastward from Jerusalem. In his mind’s eye, he sees a majestic and determined figure—it is Jesus the Messiah—marching victoriously toward His throne in Jerusalem, out of Edom and Bozrah. Bozrah was the capital city of ancient Edom. Today it is called Petra. Once more, the timing is the Day of the Lord’s vengeance, and Jesus HImself is clearly on the ground, personally executing the justice of the Lord.

If anyone would still question whether or not Isaiah 63 and 34 are speaking of the return of Jesus, all doubt is put to rest when we see that the quintessential passage concerning the return of Jesus—Revelation 19—finds the theme of Jesus treading “the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty” directly from Isaiah 63. The two passages are both speaking of the return of Jesus as He executes vengeance against His enemies. The armies of the Beast in Revelation 19 are identified as Edom in Isaiah 63. In both passages, Jesus crushes his enemies like grapes.

Obadiah

In the Book of the Prophet Obadiah, once more the same reality is described in great detail. The entire theme of this short prophecy is the ultimate victory of “the Mountain of Zion” over “the Mountain of Edom.” Mountains are a commonly used biblical motif for kingdoms. The prophecy is ultimately about the Kingdom of Israel triumphing over the Kingdom of Edom. Calvary Chapel founder Chuck Smith rightly states that the final fulfillment of this prophecy and the judgment of Edom will occur during “the day of the Lord when God blesses Israel once again when the deliverer is in Zion and the Lord reigns.” The “Day of the Lord” context is also seen in the final verse of the prophecy, which states that in that “Saviors (or, salvation) shall go up to Mount Zion to rule Mount Esau, and the kingdom shall be the Lord’s” (Obadiah 1:21). So the ultimate victory of Israel over Edom will be seen when the Kingdom belongs to the Lord Jesus who will be present and ruling from Jerusalem.

We could look at several other passages as well. In Isaiah 25, Amos 2 and Zephaniah 2:9, Moab is portrayed as being judged specifically in the context of the return of the Jesus.

Again we must ask; If Edom and Moab are utterly conquered, “annihilated”, or even “exterminated” by the Israeli Defense Forces several years prior to the return of Jesus, how is it that the Messiah is consistently and repeatedly portrayed over and over again, throughout the prophets, as carrying out these things personally when He returns? But it is not merely Edom and Moab that this can be said of. This same pattern occurs with every name or place mentioned in Psalm 83. In Zephaniah 2, for example, we find the Day of the Lord judgment of the Philistines and Assyria. In Joel 3, Philistia, as well as Lebanon (Tyre and Gebal) are judged at the Day of the Lord. In Ezekiel 30, several nations, including Arabia are specified as being judged in the Day of the Lord. In the end, every last people, nation or region listed in Psalm 83 are described, often in great detail, within the prophets as being judged in the Day of the Lord, at the return of Jesus. Any effort to argue that these peoples, nations or regions are going to be utterly annihilated before the return of Jesus will result in a view which stands in stark conflict with the Biblical prophets.

In conclusion, the Psalm 83 theory wrongly interpret the prophets, setting the Church up for confusion through unbiblical and false expectations. But the most worrisome error of the Psalm 83 War theory is that it takes the righteous judgments of Jesus, and reallocates them to mere men. As a strong supporter of the Israeli Defense Forces, I say that the aforementioned righteous judgments described in the prophets belong to the Lord Jesus alone. No man or no army will ever be able to claim the victory of the Lord for themselves. The Lord alone will be exalted in that day (Isaiah 2:17).

36 Responses to The Psalm 83 War?

  1. David Lindhjem says:

    Hi Joel

    Thanks for your excelent writing.

    Did you see my update mail ?

    Blessings to you from Norway !

    David

  2. Ron says:

    Those who have ears to hear… will her. Those who have eyes to see… will see. In other words, there are those who no matter what you do or say, will not listen. Even if/when the writing is on the wall. In 2 Peter 3 we see that in the last days, Christians will be made fun of (scoffed at) for believing in the doctrine of pre-trib rapture. For “all these things” that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24 will have occurred and yet no Jesus rapturing Christians prior to all “these things.” So even in the very last days, many Christians will not have ears to hear nor eye to see, even when the writing is on the wall.

    My heart yearns dearly for my brethren and sistren in Christ who hold to the false doctrines. It is so hard too. This must have been how the Prophets felt when they would give warnings that would go unheeded. Imagine how Noah must have felt when the people would ask him what he was doing and laugh or ignore him and his warnings. I can only imagine the sorrow Noah must have felt.

    I feel that sorrow when I hear so many in church and other places speak of all these false doctrines.

  3. good4u says:

    I cannot help but echo Ron’s lament regarding the unsealing of biblical prophecy in THIS modern generation that I live in and see it being played out. The Islamic paradigm is the “Master Key” but individual prophetic doorways (i.e., specific events) are still yet to open as time progresses. But that should not deter us watching, praying and studying the prophetic Word of God. The false doctrines regarding prophecy are deeply rooted in the Church and only with prayer, constant sound teaching of spreading the word regarding the Islamic paradigm will change come to darkened minds. Islamic paradigm supporters are like OT prophets…ignored until you need them! At least, that is what it feels like when talking to my pastor. LOL!

    That is okay, God knows and we will be there ready to assist when the time is deemed ready.

    Blessings!

  4. Gareth Little says:

    Joel,

    Blessings in our Saviour’s name. I am a Christian from Northern Ireland and recently have been enjoying both your messages and also messages from Walid Shoebat. I want to encourage you in the Lord for the work you have been called to do.

    God bless you and your family
    Gareth

  5. Yochanan says:

    Thanks Joel

    Remove the repetition of the children of lot and we have 10.

    When the statue falls, the exile will be over.

    the plot thickens!

  6. Shawn Pratt says:

    Excellent article! I have long felt as though the Psalm 83 book as well as the author’s previous book consisted of some of the most terrible reasoning and poor interpretation. Keep up the good work.

  7. Joel says:

    Jay,

    I’m not even sure what you are asking. Are you asking me when I believe that Jesus will return?

  8. Asher says:

    Nailed it Joel! Thanks for putting this up. Love the map.

  9. Jim says:

    Joel, well done. I agree the inner ring nations are judged on the Day of the Lord. Revelation 20:8 seems to indicate however that the Gog/Magog war is at the end of the 1000 years when Satan is loosed. How do you read it?

    Jim

  10. Christine Saleh says:

    Hi Joel,
    Thank you for this very clear explanation of the Psalm 83 war. I have now shifted my view from seeing this as a war of extermination prior to the Day of the Lord to seeing it in the context of Christ fighting on earth on behalf of His people on the Day of His wrath. I have two quick observations:
    1. Would I be right to take the Day for a year principle that is often used in prophecy to conclude that the Day of the Lord actually lasts for a year as opposed to battles that occur during a 24-hour period?
    2. I also wanted to challenge yours and Walid Shoebat’s view shared via a talk show regarding the three horns uprooted by the Antichrist. Your opinion was that the Antichrist will remove the leaders of Egypt, Cush (North Sudan) and Phut (Libya). I agree with the fact that the Egyptian leadership will likely be one of the leaders uprooted by the Mahdi given the fact that Turkey is already clashing with the Egyptian Military backed government and the fact that he is referred to as the Pharaoh of Egypt. I propose that his other names; the King of Tyre and the King of Babylon are used to refer to him because he also deposes the leader of Lebanon. According to your book “God’s war on Terror”, Babylon in end times points to Saudi Arabia the harlot. It is not unforeseeable that Turkey will clash with Saudi Arabia. Many hadiths refers to a group of Muslims who will clash with the Mahdi. Some Islamic teachers refer to these Muslims as the Qurayesh. The Mahdi will clash with the Qurayesh and defeat them. I see the Qurayesh as representing Saudi Arabia. Therefore, the three leaders I see as being plucked by the Mahdi are the Egyptian, Lebanese and Saudi Arabian leaders. Let me know what you think.

  11. Joel says:

    Christine,

    The Day of the Lord is a period of time, but I would not use the day year theory myself.

    On the other issues, the three nations are taken early, whereas Babylon is destroyed at the end.

    And I would never look to Islamic prophecy as if it is actually prophetic. Muslim apocalyptic material is worth understanding only to see that Satan has been working to create a counter narrative for those who are deceived. But I do not look to it as any source of truth.

    Blessings

  12. Joel says:

    Jim,

    The invasion carried out by Gog of Magog as described in Ezekiel 38 & 39 must be viewed as distinct from the Post-Millennial Gog and Magog War described in Revelation 20. Consider for instance that Ezekiel’s war concludes with all Israel getting saved, and all returning to their land, being freed from captivity. If Ezekiel’s war happens at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ, and it is only then that Israel finally comes to know Him, followed with Jews being delivered from their status as captives among the nations, then this would cast Jesus as as a rather impotent ruler during the millennium to say the least. The portrayal of the Jews during the millennium is consistently as entirely Holy and belonging to the Lord. There really is no way to reconcile the descriptions of what occurs at the conclusion of Ezekiel’s War with the conditions described throughout the Millennium. Ezekiel’s War and the War described in Revelation 20 must be seen as two separate wars. This is a very brief and partial explanation of why I hold to the view I do, but I hope it has helped.

    Blessings

  13. Clark Gear says:

    Joel, very good in a limited amount of space. Refuting a book in a few paragraphs, but that is actually all it takes. Irenaus lists these three as the 3 horns as well. And haven’t we already seen it? Why does it have to be yet future? Are we not living now in these very days? Also Mystery Babylon? Why can’t it be the US. Is not that nation and its leader acting in the spirit of Anti Christ? Mystery to me is a hint, who is betraying Israel? Who betrayed YESHUA? A friend…
    Our country is making itself most despicable changing laws, and times and seasons. I agree with the Islamic essence of all that the scripture presents yet there is something more not being said.
    Also this false doctrine of pre trib is like watching a frog taking a bath in boiling water.

  14. james says:

    joel, I think I saw a comment of yours that you back the the post tribulation. I’m not sure my timeline is correct but if it is I don’t see how post-trib is even plausible. Could you correct me if I’m wrong on this. The 7 year peace treaty with Israel is what sparks the beginning of the 7 year tribulation. The first 3.5 years of the tribulation you would have the 2 witnesses on the scene that would have power from god to cause earthquakes,famines,disasters as judgement from god and if anyone tries to harm them they will be killed. Also, I think the two witnesses are the ones that get the rebuilding of the temple going in that first 3.5 years of the tribulation. Now imagine if you were a atheist and you saw these two men on earth as well as the rebuilding of the temple going on. The people would start searching for god, especially after the two witnesses are overcome by the beast and god resurects them to heaven after they have been dead for 3.5 days. “The coming of the son of man will be like in the days of noah, the people were eating,drinking, and marrying, then the floods came” The floods hit the people by surprise. When that 7 year treaty is established with israel the dynamics of the world change on a dime and the two witnesses on the scene. The people would already see the “floods” especially with the power the two witnesses have. It only makes since to me if the rapture happens right before that 7 year peace treaty is established.

  15. Joel says:

    James,

    First, this is all speculation on your part. It is based on how you imagine or cannot imagine unbelievers will act or respond. Essentially, you are expecting unbelievers and rebels to act rationally. Was this the case after the plagues in Egypt? Of course not. Another example in Rev 19 tells us that even after the son of man bursts forth from heaven with fire and the armies of heaven, the kings of the earth and their armies will actually go to make war with the “rider on the horse”. Is this rational in any way shape or form? I think you see my point. If they were rational, they would all repent. But the Scriptures say that they will only continually harden their hearts. Thus we should expect them to act as hardened and blinded rebels. For this is what they are.

    That said, you didn’t quote a single verse from Scripture. This must be our standard. For example, Scripture says clearly that the rapture happens after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29). It says that the rapture cannot happen until after the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thess 2:1-3).

    Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction

    And it says that unlike the peoples of the earth who are hardened in their rebellion, we will not be surprised when he returns (1 Thess 5:4-5).

    But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you fnlike a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness

    Ultimately, even if you continue to reject Paul and Jesus’ words on these things, I think you would acknowledge that it is always wisdom to hope for the best but to be prepared for the worst.

    I hope that this has helped.

    Blessings!

  16. james says:

    I do quote from scripture I’m just doing this on the fly so I don’t have time to say rev15253726. 7 year treaty, 7 year tribulation, The two witnesses, beast overcomes the two witnesses, beast sets up abomination of desolation at midway point, god ressurects the two witnesses, ext. You know what I’m saying is all biblical so don’t try and make it like you quote from scripture and I dont. “Another example in Rev 19 tells us that even after the son of man bursts forth from heaven with fire and the armies of heaven, the kings of the earth and their armies will actually go to make war with the “rider on the horse”
    This is my point, The people following the system of the beast aren’t surprised by the 2nd coming of christ because they are prepared to make war with him. They say, “who can make war with the beast.” It’s not that they don’t believe christ wont return it’s just they believe the beast can defeat christ. They will have already witnessed the two witnesses ressurected to heaven at this point by god, as well as the beast causing fire to come down from heaven. They will know both posess power. Just like pharoe knew moses had a source behind him, he just thought his source could defeat moses source. A hardened heart doesn’t take away all logic. A hardened heart is what made them refuse to follow god, but they still knew that source was there. “The coming of the son of man will be like in the days of noah” is a surpise. Mathew24:29, zackeriah14 are easily predictable which deals with the lord returning to earth as king of kings and lord of lords. two dif. events. We will agree to disagree, god bless.

  17. Marcus says:

    Hi there Joel. :)

    I believe that your explanation is very valid, but you forgot one very bim portant thing.Edom will be attack and made waste by the people of Israel too and therefore there must be another war before God;Magog or the Messiah destroying Edom. Here it goes:

    Eze 25:13,14 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will also stretch out mine hand upon Edom, and will cut off man and beast from it; and I will make it desolate from Teman; and they of Dedan shall fall by the sword. And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the HAND of MY PEOPLE ISRAEL: and they shall do in Edom according to mine anger and according to my fury; and they shall know my vengeance, saith the Lord GOD.

    It is the hand of Israel, not the Messiah, that God uses (This time) to defeat Edom, Dedan and Teman. How can you explain this?

    God bless you.

  18. Joel says:

    Hi Marcus,

    This is an important verse indeed. But it is important to acknowledge that your argument cuts both ways. On one hand, it would be wrong to simply write off this passage and say that Messiah clearly destroys Edom, so it cannot be Israel and visa-versa. But I think many who support the Psalm 83 War theory say that it cannot be Messiah because there are some passages that speak of Israel executing the judgments against Edom (or Esau). There are a couple options in terms of how to reconcile this seeming tension, the best of which I believe is that the two must together be the same. Jesus will lead his people Israel in victory over their enemies after he returns. There is after all abundant scriptural evidence that suggests this. Zechariah 12 for instance speaks of Jesus returning and also speaks of Israel becoming a fire to the nations that surround them. So on one hand they are fire to the surrounding nations which are portrayed as wood, but so also does it say that he himself defends them at that time. It is also at the same time that the Lord returns and Israel is repenting of having had rejected him. Mind you “in that day” is a common term used to describe the Day of the Lord (when Jesus returns):

    In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them. “And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. (Zech. 12:8-10)

    Obadiah also describes the same thing, which is the Lord with Israel destroying Edom:

    “But on Mount Zion there will be those who escape (survivors from Israel who live), and it will be holy. And the house of Jacob will possess their possessions. Then the house of Jacob will be a fire and the house of Joseph a flame; But the house of Esau will be as stubble. And they will set them on fire and consume them, So that there will be no survivor of the house of Esau,” For the LORD has spoken. … The deliverers (or the Deliverer) will ascend Mount Zion to judge the mountain of Esau, and the kingdom will be the LORD’S.(Obadiah 1:171-18, 21)

    Notice that the victory of Israel over Edom is at the time when the Kingdom is established. Notice also that it is the remnant, or survivors of Israel who defeat Edom. I think far too many Christians believe that when Jesus returns, he simply snaps his fingers and all of his enemies are destroyed. But this is not the picture painted by the prophets. One thing is clear: If anyone were to look at these clearly Day of the Lord centered passages and try to move them back several years before the return of the Lord, they would be making a huge mistake. The context simply doesn’t allow for it.

    I hope this has helped.

    Blessings

  19. Thank you Joel you are right on, God has used you to open up the word to us and also Walid Shoebat and company.We now can enter these last days with understanding and our eyes open. Joel please check out my website endtimesprophecywatchman.org. Thank you and God bless our heritage Israel.

  20. Marcus says:

    Thanks for the reply Joel.

    A very good and strong argument that you are using. You are probably right.
    However there is still the possibility that they are 2 different events.

    It is important to notice that Eze 25:13,14 does not uses ‘the day of the Lord or in that day” and still can be different events if it is not the Day.

  21. Joel says:

    Very nice site David. Blessings!

  22. Runar says:

    Why cannot the psalm 83 war be the already historic 1967 war when Israel defeated its arabic neighbours ?

  23. Ron says:

    Hi Joel,

    This was quite a great post; hope you have the spirit of YHWH to guide you and may you be humble in front of him and in front of his son Yeshua. Regarding Psalm 83, I have reading it several times, and I see NO WAR at all. All I see in Psalm 83 is exactly what has been happening for quite some years now, the surrounding nations of Israel want to destroy Israel, I would call this “RUMOR of WAR”, but not an exact war.

  24. TMC says:

    Hi Joel,

    Have you looked at your map in this article lately and compared it to the new lines being drawn in the middle east by ISIS?

    Wow…

    Blessings,

    Tina

  25. Praise King Jesus!!! Thank you Joel for your Truth that you continue to give to us your fellow brethren. I pray that the Lord encamps His angels around you and your family. I also pray that no weapon formed against you will prosper in the name of Jesus. We need more men like you in the body of christ brother. Keep removing scales brother. God bless!!!

  26. Rod Els says:

    Joel, I have been reading your articles with great interest. You have been a big factor in my renewed interest to read the Old Testament. I used to skip these “day of the Lord” passages because I couldn’t make out the time frame. But now every passage comes alive and I am just hungering for more understanding.

    But still I find your explanation somewhat very weak specifically about how to reconcile the seeming contradiction of these passages: Isaiah 63:3,5 and Obadiah verses 18-19, if you insist that these are not 2 separate wars but just one and the same war. For in Isaiah 63:3 we find the Lord Jesus Christ fighting alone. But in Obadiah, Israel annihilates the surrounding nations.

    “I have trodden the winepress alone, and from the peoples no one was with Me. For I have trodden them in My anger and trampled them in My fury”

    “I looked but there was no one to help, And I wondered that there was no one to uphold; therefore My own arm brought salvation for Me; And My own fury it sustained Me.”

    And yet in the Obadiah passage (and other passages you mentioned in this article) we find the people of Israel, specifically the remnant of them, defeating the surrounding nations, or literally putting them on fire.

    “The house of Jacob shall be a fire and the house of Joseph a flame; but the house of Esau shall be stubble; They shall kindle them and devour them. And no survivor shall remain of the house of Esau. For the Lord has spoken.” Obadiah v.18

    I hope you can enlighten us furthere. Thank you, and shalom!

  27. Joel says:

    Hi Rod,

    I’m presently extremely short on time, so forgive my brief response here. But I find that answers discovered on ones own always stick better anyway. So let me begin by asking you a couple questions to better understand your present perspective.

    Are you claiming that when Jesus returns, He will be all alone?

    When exactly do you see Obadiah 18-19 occurring?

    How does Obadiah 17 fit into your present scenario?

    Do you feel as though Bill Salus’ scenario of Obadiah taking place minimally several years before Christ returns fits the context of the various internal language used in Obadiah?

    Thanks for your comments.

    Blessings,
    Joel

  28. Paul Hovanesian says:

    Hi Joel, it is an honor to finally get to speak to you regarding a subject that I am unsure of.

    Which war brings the 7 year peace treaty to Israel?

    A. Psalm 83

    B. Ezekiel 38-39 or

    C. Isaiah 17 destruction of Damascus?

    I know it has to be one or more of these battles. Without these battles, there cannot be a peace treaty. Which one brings the “peace making ” Antichrist to the scene?

    Please share with me your thoughts

    Thank you

  29. Joel says:

    Hi Paul,

    In my reading, these three passages are not three separate “battles” but all part of the same final period. Psalm 83 is not a distinct war, as many wrongly claim.

  30. rod els says:

    Hi joel,

    Actually you helped me see how there cannot be a psalm 83 war prior to the 7 year period or treaty. I used to look forward to the day Israel finally settles the score with her enemy neighbors and used ps. 83 and Obadiah as basis. But after reading your article you had me reconsider my view.

    Another thing that caught my attention why the Obadiah passages cannot happen before the AC invades Israel is that in Daniel 11:41 it says that Edom, Moab and the main part of the Ammonites shall be delivered out of his hand.

    That got me into thinking, if Edom, Moab and the Ammonites are annihilated in a prior war how could they still be existing and delivered in the time that the AC will be ravaging Israel? They probably will pledge allegiance and support the AC hence are spared from invasion and destruction, at least for a time. Until they are torched by the remnant of Jacob.

    But still i am looking for answers as to why God would say He would be alone with none to help Him as he delivers judgment to Israel’s neighbors.

    Perhaps i am taking the Word too literal this time? My best guess at this point is that Isaiah 63: 3,5, probably is more poetic than litetal. Probably at that time all the nations of the world would be too afraid or cautious to get involved, God would look but no nation, no NATO or anything would dare help Him. So He and His army executes judgment alone.

    You see i am not really a scholar that’s why i was looking to you for a more scholarly explanation. But i understand that you are a busy person, that’s ok. Just get back to me when you can. Just want to say “thank you” for your insights, you are a gift to the body in these last days. Blessings! -rod.

  31. Joel says:

    Hi Rod,

    Essentially, we know that Jesus returns with the armies of heaven behind him ala Rev. 19. So He is not alone as in all by Himself per se. I think that we need to take His comments in Is. 63 as you inferred as none from among the nations, gentiles are executing His righteous vengeance or justice. That said, I think the Scriptures also demand that we recognize that Israel’s victory happens after He returns, not before. Salus’ big error is that he takes passages, the context of which are clearly the Day of the Lord. or even the millennial Kingdom, and he tries to move them back as much as fifty years before the return of Jesus. Unfortunately, I’ve invited him to have a public discussion of these things, but he has never been willing to do so. I think if the larger Body of Christ could weigh the Scriptural evidence, they would recognize that there is no distinct Psalm War as so many wrongly believe today.

  32. Paul Hovanesian says:

    So are you saying there is no “battle” before the antichrist comes?

    This doesn’t make sense to me. Why would there be a peace treaty if there is no war or fighting going on?

    I always thought Israel goes to war with the surrounding nations, they are defeated, and then the antichrist comes and brings a peace treaty for 7 years. Then he rebuilds the Jewish temple.

    After Ezekiel 39, comes the passages describing the Rebuilt temple.

    Can you just explain to me how the peace treaty is established?

  33. Joel says:

    Peter,

    Daniel tells us the Antichrist will make “a covenant with many.” Isaiah informs us that Israel will make “a covenant with death.” Whether this will be a “peace treaty” or not is pure speculation. We must stick with what the Scriptures say. We know the AC will be shrewd, deceptive and manipulative. Somehow he will manage to make some form of agreement with Israel that will likely include concessions for her to build the temple. But until it happens, we can only speculate.

    Now, of course there will indeed be wars and ongoing conflict. However, to equate these wars or battles with Psalm 83, and go so far as to claim that Israel will actually defeat and occupy the surrounding nations of Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Syria, as Bill Salus and other proponents of the “Psalm 83 War” theory do, is just downright unscriptural and dangerous. Nowhere do the Scriptures say that Israel is going to defeat the surrounding nations prior to the return of Jesus. No where. In fact, the Scriptures say just the opposite. Zechariah and Joel both speak of the surrounding nations gathering together against Jerusalem in the last days. Jesus says that many Jews will be taken captive among the nations (Luke 21:24).

    As for Ezekiel 39, this concludes at the return of Jesus. The Temple described there is the millennial temple, not the tribulation temple.

    I would highly encourage you to consider reading Mideast Beast.

    Forgive my brevity. I hope this has helped.
    Blessings

  34. Paul Hovanesian says:

    I am ordering the Mideast beast.

    Can you explain to me why the United states of America is not mentioned anywhere in “end time ” prophecy.

    For a country that dominates the world and the Middle East,a country that always comes to Israel’s aid,it is pretty shocking that it is not mentioned in prophecy.

    And this actually scares me. Is our Country going to be destroyed before then?

    Speculation is fine.

  35. Joel says:

    The Bible is not about us, its about Israel.

  36. Paul Hovanesian says:

    Are the ships of Tarshish a reference to Europe or America because many scholars say Ships of Tarshish were Western traders.

    In Isaiah, GOD seems pretty angry at Tarshish and says he will destroy them. Later we see Tarshish questioning the Gog and Magog invasion in Ezekiel.

    Who are they exactly?

    Thank you

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