Israeli Sanhedrin return to Istanbul to meet with Adnan Oktar
In July of this year (2009), I travelled to Istanbul to meet with Muslim leader Adnan Oktar. You may watch a video of one of our meetings or read the full transcript here. Shortly after our meeting, Mr. Oktar also met with three representatives from the Reformed Israeli Sanhedrin. See my post regarding this meeting here. As well as the following two commentaries regarding these meetings here:
Muslim leader wants Temple rebuilt
Should Christians, Muslims and Jews unite?
Now, three of the Sanhedrin Rabbis have returned to Turkey to meet once again with Mr. Oktar.
The offical statement regarding this meeting was released by the Sanhedrin on their web-site and may be read here. A video of the meeting may be viewed here, but I recommend reading the full transcript below:
ALİ SADUN ENGİN: … I would like to start our program first by introducing our guests. This gentleman is Rabbi Hollander. Welcome Mr. Hollander.
RABBI HOLLANDER: Thank you very much.
ALİ SADUN ENGİN: Rabbi Abrahamson, on the right. Welcome Mr. Abrahamson.
RABBI ABRAHAMSON: Thank you, good to be here.
ALİ SADUN ENGİN: Rabbi Loebel, right next to me. Welcome.
RABBI LOEBEL: Welcome.
ADNAN OKTAR: I imagine he would like to say a prayer, wouldn’t he?
ALİ SADUN ENGİN: Yes. Rabbi Hollander would like to start the program with a prayer. Yes please.
RABBI HOLLANDER: I have written a short prayer for the success of this meeting.
May it please you, oh God, that you bless this meeting, that we shall not make mistakes, that we shall continue and increase the understanding, harmony and love between us, and succeed in finding the ways of increasing the understanding, harmony and love between of our peoples.
ADNAN OKTAR: Masha’Allah. Masha’Allah. Insha’Allah, insha’Allah.
RABBI HOLLANDER: I would like to give you a present before we begin. Before we start the events, this is from Rabbi Yoel Shwartz of Jerusalem, the seven Noahide laws, about the seven Noah’s laws.
ADNAN OKTAR: Masha’Allah.
RABBI HOLLANDER: And this is a book in Arabic and English, A Light to the Nations. This is our duties to the world. Here it is in French.
ADNAN OKTAR: Insha’Allah, masha’Allah. Thanks be to Allah, our Jewish brothers regard our Muslim brothers, alhamdulillah, as believers. They believe in the Prophet Noah (peace be upon him), so they regard Muslims as the People of Noah. They therefore regard us as brothers in faith. This is very excellent. As you know, and may Allah forbid, some Christians regard Muslims as unbelievers. But in contrast, Jews regard Muslims as believers. There are seven laws, as you know, to being one of the People of Noah. These are beliefs also accepted by Muslims, such as that you must not kill, you must not commit adultery and you must not worship false idols. In those terms, there is an excellent union between us, insha’Allah. They are also a community descended from the Prophet Abraham (pbuh). In that respect, they are entrusted to us by Allah. The law of the Messenger tells us to love, be affectionate toward and watch over and protect the People of the Book. And that is how our Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) behaved. We also feel love and affection for them. Insha’Allah, all states will be independent in the time of the Turkish-Islamic Union. Israel will be, and so will Syria. And Iran, they will all be independent, but they will love one another very strongly with a spiritual bond, a bond of brotherhood.
RABBI HOLLANDER: Insha’Allah.
ADNAN OKTAR: We have a duty as Muslims to respect all beliefs. We respect Christians in their own beliefs. And we have a great respect and love for Jews. They go to their own synagogues and worship. But there is a major snare of satan’s here. Because some Christians regard Muslims as the army of the antichrist. And some Muslims view Christians as the army of the antichrist, or else try to set Jews and Muslims at odds, or Jews and Christians. This is a grave danger, making serious imputations in this way. Of course we will serve Allah, and the appreciation thereof lies with Almighty Allah. Allah will issue the finest pronouncement regarding us in the Hereafter. We have a duty to live as brothers and in peace in this world.
If you could set them in a queue to speak, introducing them by name, insha’Allah. Let us start with this gentleman, and then take it from there.
ALİ SADUN ENGİN: So please, now we would like to listen to you dear Hollander. What do you want to say about today, this meeting, about what Adnan Oktar has explained to you?
RABBI HOLLANDER: First of all to begin with, I would like to thank Mr. Oktar for his most excellent hospitality, and for enabling our previous meetings which were so valuable to us, and especially for this meeting, which gives us an opportunity to respond publicly to his love for us, and declare publicly our love for him and for all people whom he represents. In particular we wish to express our thanks to the very diligent helpers of Mr. Oktar. Without their willing efforts on our behalf, our meetings could not take place. I would like to say a bit what this is all about from out point of view. We have been asked how do Rabbis, Members of the Nascent Sanhedrin in Jerusalem, come to make such statements? Well the truth is it is perfectly natural.
ADNAN OKTAR: Masha’Allah. Masha’Allah, alhamdulillah. Please go on.
RABBI HOLLANDER: We have met Mr. Oktar, we heard about him before. Mr. Oktar is a philosopher, and a lover of humanity. Consequently he is a lover of truth, because every lover of humanity is a person who abhors war, who loves peace and harmony. But peace and harmony can exist only if the relationships between peoples are based upon truth.
ADNAN OKTAR: Masha’Allah, masha’Allah, that is true.
RABBI HOLLANDER: Now the Sanhedrin that we represent also has a major purpose of bringing peace and harmony. We are dedicated to this effort. Our tools for doing this are derived from the Holy Torah, given to Humanity by God, the Creator. In a sense, the Holy Torah is analogous to a User Manual to the great and intricate machine, this world in which we all live.
ADNAN OKTAR: Yes, please go on.
RABBI HOLLANDER: Mr. Oktar has, in his diligent studies, discovered the value of studying the Holy Torah for himself, for understanding the Creation, and for understanding Humanity. He has published an important book The Wisdom and Sound Advice from the Torah, and in his quest for peace he has published another book Islam Against Terror. It is a sign of the inherent goodness of humanity that so many of these books have been downloaded from the internet, have been read by so many millions of people.
ALİ SADUN ENGİN: So meanwhile I would like to give the word a little bit to Mr. Abrahamson. Could you comment on the issue a little bit?
RABBI ABRAHAMSON: Hello, my name is Benyamin Abrahamson. I am an orthodox Chassidic Jew from Israel. And I work as a historian or a kind of consultant to the court in Jerusalem that Rabbi Hollander is talking about. Mostly people here know me from my endless discussions about the similarities between the Islam and Jewish customs. I enjoy talking about the Hadiths, Tabari, Ibn Hisham and al-Waqidi, and talking about the kings of Himyar as I much as I enjoy talking about the Midrash Rabbah, the Midrashei Geulah, Rambam, Tosefos or the Shulchan Aruch. I like very much to talk about the common shared customs between Islam and Judaism, about the similarities in architecture between the masjid and the synagogue, between the similarities of the calendar, holidays and customs. But it is clear to me that there is more than just similarities, that they obviously go back to a common root and a common faith.
ADNAN OKTAR: Masha’Allah. Of course, every faith has a duty to maintain that its own beliefs are true. Otherwise, a Jew could not be a Jew, a Muslim a Muslim, or a Christian a Christian. But respect for all faiths is also exceedingly important. It is the duty of a Muslim to respect those people’s worship and beliefs, and to watch over and protect them with love as servants of Allah. But of course Almighty Allah has produced a path for everyone. That is what Allah has ordained, but we have a duty to live together in this world as friends and brothers, never departing from the path of love, affection and compassion, and never falling for satan’s snares, insha’Allah.
RABBI ABRAHAMSON: So when talking about our common heritage, in our Jewish literature we are taught that there is such a thing as a common faith, a fundamental religion which all men are born into. And this is a basic faith which is obligated on all mankind. In the past we have called it by different names, yireh shomaym which means the people who have fear of heaven, ger toshav or bnai noah, the children of Noah, or during Hellenistic times in Greek it was called theosebeia, and according to the school of Rabbi Benamozegh, this fundamental faith is also called by the name Islam.
In the Torah, everywhere that the word “Kenite” which means the children of Jethro, is translated to Aramaic in the Targum Onkelos the word used is Salamai or Musalamai. Some have suggested that this refers to the great numbers of non-Jewish believers who came to sacrifice the Qurban Shlamim in Jerusalem together with the Jews. Salamai, Musalamai, Muslimi. This could be a clear indication in our literature that Islam is an ancient religion, dating back to the time of the Second Temple or even earlier. And if Islam’s roots, the root of Islam are the same as what we call “Bnei Noah”, then for us it is much older. This is the religion of Noah; this is the religion of Adam himself.
The closeness of Islam and Judaism has always been understood by Biblical Scholars up until recent years. The close relationship with Jews, the ten lost tribes, the Arabs and Rachabites, all this was assumed to be true. It was only with the advent of German revisionists like Wellhausen and Büchler, and others, this began to change. They introduced ideas that Islam had something to do with worshipping the Moon, rocks or some asteroid that fell. But devout Jews know that this is not true. It is a fact of Jewish Law that we believe that Muslims are perfect monotheists. They worship the same God that we do.
ADNAN OKTAR: Masha’Allah.
RABBI LOEBEL: (Praying in Hebrew before drinking) Blessed are You, O’ Lord, King of the Universe who has created all things according to Your word.
RABBI ABRAHAMSON: Amen.
ADNAN OKTAR: Masha’Allah. Yes, masha’Allah. Yes, Jews do have such an excellent virtue. They say a different prayer for every fruit they eat. I saw that when they were here before. That is very, very excellent, masha’Allah. They give thanks for Allah’s blessings on every occasion. Like us, masha’Allah. In the same way we begin with the name of Allah, they begin by giving thanks to Allah. They have special prayers referring to Allah’s blessings. We believe in One Allah and the same prophets. They also believe in the angels and the Hereafter, masha’Allah. But there is a difference between us, of course. Allah will pronounce on that in the Hereafter. But we have a duty in this world to protect and support one another. Because it is highly important that all believers should act together against atheism, Darwinism and materialism. Because we are opposed by atheism, a grave danger. Of course we will try to convince them through love and affection, science and reason, rather than crushing them underfoot, insha’Allah.
There is no question of convincing anyone by crushing or hurting them, of course. There is no compulsion in Islam; the Qur’an makes that crystal clear. It must always be done with love and affection, insha’Allah.
ALI SADUN ENGIN: If you like we haven’t had the opportunity to take what Rabbi Loebel had to say, we can ask for that.
ADNAN OKTAR: But, was he not reluctant to speak because of his English?
ALI SADUN ENGIN: Yes he didn’t want to speak at first because of his English.
ADNAN OKTAR: But then again, he can still say a few words. If he wishes so, of course.
ALİ SADUN ENGİN: We can have a couple of words from you, at least your feelings. If you wish. Your feelings about what you hear.
RABBI LOEBEL: I feel very happy that Jews and Muslims know how to work together and how to talk — in the very crucial way – about the problems of the new world, of the highly technical modern and its problems, we shall solve together in a way of tranquility and in a way of peace.
ADNAN OKTAR: Yes, insha’Allah. Ideas such as wiping the Jews off the face of the earth and destroying Israel are wicked and a violation of reason, faith and good conscience, and directly contrary to the Qur’an. Hitler committed this insanity, this psychopathic behavior, in his own day. As you know, he caused many innocent Jews to be burned in ovens or poisoned in gas chambers, to be crushed and killed for no offense. That is terrible wickedness. In the time of the Turkish-Islamic Union, insha’Allah, we will watch over and protect them with love and affection. We shall strive to ensure that this line from the prophets survives until the Day of Judgment and lives in happiness, insha’Allah. Everyone will strive within his own beliefs. As I have already said. The appreciation of this then lies with Almighty Allah.
Enmity toward Christianity and Christians is similarly something that violates reason and good conscience. They are also servants of Allah; they are also the People of the Book. Muslims also have a duty to protect and watch over them with love, affection and compassion; because that was how it was in the time of our Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace). The People of the Book were completely at ease in the time of the Messenger, in the Age of Happiness. And, insha’Allah, they will again be happy in this age, and will strive together with Muslims in order to spend their lives in the pleasantest way, insha’Allah.
ADNAN OKTAR: I consider the enmity felt against Jews and Christians grievous, since in any case, they are the people who have faith in Allah, who believe in the prophets. Aren’t they? They believe in angels. That is, it is very grievous that, some people, as if there is no one else in the world, take the people having faith in Allah as enemies. Our Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) used to show compassion to them, he used to show love. Muslims used to protect them, watch over them. Muslims used to take them to their destinations in safety. Things have turned out to be aberrant to such extent only later. That is, the enmity against Jews, the enmity against Christians… That is a sin. Such a shame. It is a very aberrant attitude. Everyone will live by their own religions. Muslims will live by their own religions and they [Jews] will live by their own religion. Allah will appraise it. Allah will appraise their state in the Hereafter. It is a great cruelty to oppress people of other beliefs, even if they are communists, freemasons. It is cruelty to inflict pain on them or to hate them, to make their lives unbearable. These people [Jews] go somewhere they are told to leave. When they go somewhere else, they are again told to leave. So where will they go? They will not end up in the space, right?… They are the servants of Allah. They should be treated with compassion. I find it important to stress this point. I attach importance to this subject insha’Allah.
TARKAN YAVAŞ: Masha’Allah our guests love you very much. They are full of love and respect towards you.
ADNAN OKTAR: Masha’Allah, Masha’Allah. They also showed so much love to you when they were leaving, masha’Allah. They are all people who have undergone high education; they all have their respective jobs, some of them are engineers, others occupy important positions. But they are at the same time rabbis. The fact that they have undergone high education, that they have extensive general knowledge and that they are also reverends is reasonable. That is what is so beautiful, insha’Allah.
PRESENTER: As Mr. Tarkan said, the love they feel for you is really tremendous, I also observed it. They both love and respect you, and at the same time they have such an inner attachment to you.
ADNAN OKTAR: Masha’Allah.
PRESENTER: Surely your approach here is of great importance; your positive approach towards them, your peaceful and brotherly attitude is of great importance. Until now nobody has ever approached these reverends with such an attitude, right?
ADNAN OKTAR: It is actually hard to believe. Why should these pure people be murdered? They are oppressed people and Allah has given them a name; The People of the Book. All-Mighty Allah in the Qur’an informs us that there will be Jews and Christians. They are not a non-existent community. They are an existent community. They also existed in the time of our Prophet (saas). Consequently within the community of the Turkish-Islamic Community, they will be first-class citizens. Muslims, Jews and Christians, they will all be treated with compassion. Why should they be oppressed? Why should they be subjected to such cruelty, exiled from one place to another? Why should they suffer wherever they go? It is erroneous to inflict this pain on anybody.
December 5th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
With so much love being expressed for one another it was easy to ignore the truth.
Jesus Christ is “I AM”.
December 5th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Don’t settle! This story is like watching a once promising lady settle for an abusive groom because she has lost her confidence and her way. This decision will go badly in the end.
December 5th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
Yesterday, on the Julian Calendar, was the feast day of the entrance of the Virgin Mary into the Temple. The sacrifice of her Mother, Anna, was noted, and made the world a different place. Mary was prepared to be the Mother of God, because of the time she spent in the Temple.
The pater familias role was changed, because he was answerable to a higher authority than himself. If something was displeasing about a new-born, it was left in the wilderness, or mountains, to be eaten.
Real change came to the world via the communicating of the greatest news of all time, which is the root of gospel, by the likes of Paul, Peter, Philip, and all those who were in the Upper room when tongues of fire rested upon those gathered there on the feast of Pentecost, as recorded in the Second Chapter of the Acts of the Apostles.
Given the insecurities of the older brother, namely Judaism, and frankly the indolent who claim to be Christian, it isn’t that far to travel to the blurring of distinctions by the Sanhedrin.
Because, where is the distinction between the ruling class and government of Dubai? Where is the law of equality more than a dead letter in Muslim lands?
Looking for these two items is as fruitless as looking to see if a leopard changes its spots.
December 5th, 2009 at 8:53 pm
Dear Joel,
I’d highly recommend you to go through the following, please.
http://tr1.harunyahya.com/Detail/T/EDCRFV/productId/19321/BEWARE_THE_FALSE_ACCOUNTS_THAT_EVANGELICAL_MASONS_ARE_TRYING_TO_BASE_ON_THE_GOSPEL
http://tr1.harunyahya.com/Detail/T/EDCRFV/productId/19010/THOSE_EVANGELICALS_EXPOSED_TO_MASONIC_INFLUENCE_MUST_NOT_BECOME_PART_OF_THE_ANTICHRIST%E2%80%99S_STRATAGEM
http://tr1.harunyahya.com/Detail/T/EDCRFV/productId/14521/RESPONSES_TO_SOME_CHRISTIANS__ERRORS_REGARDING_THE_END_TIMES
http://tr1.harunyahya.com/Detail/T/EDCRFV/productId/15345/THE___ORDER_OF_THE_ANTICHRIST__REFERRED_TO_IN_THE_NEW_TESTAMENT_IS_THE__FREEMASONRY__THAT_RULES_THE_WORLD_AND_IS_CURRENTLY_SHEDDING_BLOOD
http://tr1.harunyahya.com/Detail/T/EDCRFV/productId/15844/FREEMASONRY_–_THE_ANTICHRIST_SYSTEM_–_STRIVES_FOR_SETTING_BELIEVERS_AT_LOGGERHEADS_BY_USING_THE_PRESS
And it’s VERY much important to be aware of the fact that the Mahdi and AntiChrist [Dajjal ] are different entities. Mahdi won’t shed even a single drop of blood and is a person of love and affection.
Dajjal on the other hand stirs hatred among devout believers of the three Abrahamic faiths.
Unity and friendship is ESSENTIAL to rout the plots of Dajjal.
And of course, everyone is free to practice their own religious observances. The interfaith- brotherhood does not mean abandoning each other’s faiths, but the discourse of brotherhood and peace.
We’re all worshiping the all -Powerful One GOD, the Lord of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad [ peace be upon all of them ]
December 5th, 2009 at 9:09 pm
From a prophetic perspective this is expected but my question would be is how much of a following do these people have in their respective countries (Turkey and Isarel)? The language is really showing them to be in one accord and the hint of an emergent feeling of animosity towards Christians also expected and prophetic. These truly are exciting times we live in. But with the excitement seeing prophecy nearing fulfillment is the awareness of the reality of the persecution that will accompany the fufillment.
December 5th, 2009 at 10:14 pm
I found Rabbi Abrahamson’s comment very interesting….”we are taught that there is such a thing as a common faith”…”and according to the school
of Rabbi Benamozegh,this fundamental faith is also called by the name Islam”.
WOW! They make it seem as though Islam is older than Judaism?
This simply cannot be so?I honestly do not understand what is going on here!
Are they re-writing truth,for the sake of peace now?
They do share one common goal,they are against the deity of Jesus Christ,
that is their common thread, especially with the Sanhedrin.
December 6th, 2009 at 12:18 am
This presumably was a public meeting, given the transcript and video that’s out. I wonder if there were private meetings too–and what the content of those might be. If there were, I can’t help thinking that one of discussion topics would include terms for rebuilding the temple should Turkey/Oktar have more influence over it and The Waqf Authority.
December 6th, 2009 at 4:18 am
Reading this really highlights just how simple it will be for the “Abomonation which causes desolation” to stand in the temple.
It seems these Jewish Religious leaders will make any compromise to have a new temple bulit. Including give it over to Baal worship.
It saddens me, that although they are learned men they do not even seem to understand their own history and cannot recognise their own God.
and discern between the God of Israel and an Idol.
Have they been given over to deception?
These Jews need our prayer more than ever.
December 6th, 2009 at 6:07 pm
Silentside,
Bless you and thank you for your post here. I welcome comments by Muslims, however I find these types of challenges by Muslims to be hypocritical in that I am represented as being a problematic individual simply for adhering to my book. You are being contradictory and hypocritical in this because your book (the Quran) commands me to adhere faithfully to my book:
O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Apostle, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Apostle and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgement, hath gone far, far astray (4:136).
We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them (3:84).
But when I adhere faithfully to my book, then I am chastised. This is consistent with the contradictory world-view that Islam forces its deen to live in.
Allow me to explain: The Bible repeatedly shows that the nations that surround Israel at the time of the return of Jesus will be led by Turkey and will eventually invade Israel. The Bible says that this union will begin in a seemingly peaceful way, but will eventually become aggressive. Do you recommend that I stop proclaiming this which my book proclaims? Do you recommend that I disobey the Quran in this regard? Do you see how your religion forces you to take a contradictory position?
I am allowed to be friends with you and Adnan and other Muslims. You are forbidden however from being my friend:
Please know that I am very happy when men such as Adnan Oktar stands against the Quran and the Hadith. But I also know well that men like Adnan who deny certain aspects of their own religion in favor of peace and friendship do so by rejecting the commandments of their own books an they also do not represent the growing majority throughout the Islamic world, including Turkey.
Your chastisements are also hypocritical in that your own book calls me and all true Christians who believe in the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus to be the greatest blasphemers imaginable who are destined for hell.
They do blaspheme who say: “God is Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ: “O Children of Israel! worship God, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with God (innahu man yushrik biAllahi),- God will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. S. 5:72They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. S. 5:73
For this reason, I call Islam “antichrist”. But please note which religion began the attack. It was Islam. Your book teaches that unless one is a Muslim, he will go to hell:
I would respect you more if you were honest about this rather than trying to claim that we all are okay in our respective religions. My position is honesty. Yours is contradictory and hypocritical. The difference between myself and Muslims like yourself and Adnan is that I live in obedience to my religion and my book, while you deny your own book and religion. Don’t get me wrong, I am glad when Msuslims reject their own religion and choose to be my friend and reject violence etc. As a member of the ancient faith of all the prophets, I befriend Muslims and love them, but I also call them to reject their religion and become a follower of the real Jesus in order that they can be my brother or sister in the coming Kingdom of God and they may escape the lake of fire. The peace that you express will only be found in the one true religion of Christianity.
Bless you,
Joel
December 7th, 2009 at 8:03 am
When I say “Christianity” as the one true religion, obviously this is without proper qualifiers. “Believers in Yahweh / Yeshua” would be more accurate. And of course this includes many Jews today who would never call themselves Christians, but most often Messianic Jews.
As far as my beliefs regarding the Jewish people, they are entirely informed by the Jewish prophets and the Jewish Scriptures. I myself can only relay these things truthfully, while trembling myself. The consistent message of the Jewish prophets is that even among the Jews who presently reject Him, those who remain at the time of His return in the Davidic Messiah will then believe in Him forever. Sadly however, until now, most Jews reject the words of their prophets. Ironically, the Lord says that on that Day of the Lord He will vindicate His people politically, but rebuke them spiritually. He will rebuke them for their rejection of Him, yet He will vindicate them for their controversy among the nations.
As to why there will only be a remnant of Jews at that time, the prophets are also clear that the surrounding nations will be primarily responsible for this. What then should be our response? In Isaiah’s day, they chose alliances. But the Lord rebuked them. His call to them was to trust in Him and not in alliances.
But all these things are merely the events that precede the “good news”, which is the true Jewish message of light to the world: There is a Day of Yahweh coming when the One True God will save the Jewish remnant. He will utterly judge unrighteousness throughout the earth. The resurrection of the dead will happen. And the Messianic Kingdom with the prophesied Davidic King will rule the earth from Jerusalem. The dividing walls will be shattered as righteous Jew and gentiles from every nation will serve Yahweh together.
Bless you, Joel
December 7th, 2009 at 9:43 am
Joel, Thank you for your clarification and exhortation.
My question is what does this ‘followup’ meeting mean about the previous meeting they had back in July? Is one or the other now ‘ratified’? (as covenant agreement).
December 7th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
Nothing that radical Screaming Eagle. Just a report.
December 7th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
“The People of the Book were completely at ease in the time of the Messenger, in the Age of Happiness. ”
From my read of history they were completly at ease after they had been struck on the neck and their head seperated from their body.
The statements of the rabbis are astonishing.
December 8th, 2009 at 10:02 am
This sounds like the beginning of a peace treaty that would be the start of the end—Come Lord Jesus!
December 9th, 2009 at 8:02 am
Tell me, dear Christians, why do you all seem to be so upset at any chance of peace and friendship between Jews and Muslims? You should know that the (Jewish) prophets and sages said very clearly that the redemption may come through war (if people refuse to repent) or through peace (if we all repent and return to G-d). Don’t you prefer to be saved through peaceful cooperation between all monotheists?
December 9th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
Ehud,
First of all, thank you for your comments.
There are a few problems however with your words that I would like to respond to.
First, Christians are always happy to see genuine peace and friendship between Jews and Muslims. We desire peace. However what is taking place here is not mere friendship, but a religious alliance and some utterly unbiblical theological declarations resulting in the validation of the Islamic religion, its book and its “prophet”. (Which consequently is deeply anti-Semitic)
Secondly when you lump the Jewish “prophets and sages” into the same category, we see a serious problem. When you elevate the words and thoughts of the sages with that of the prophets, you have sinned by elevating the words and thoughts of man with that of God. This is also part of the sin of what is taking place in these meetings. This is precisely what the prophets commanded against.
I am one who considers Adnan and other Muslims my friends. However, I cannot violate my own religion (or the words of the Jewish prophets) in order to preserve this friendship. True interfaith dialogue must not involve either party violating or compromising their own religion.
That said, the prophets are clear that before the ultimate Day of the Lord / return of the Messiah, the Jewish people will once more be invaded, overcome and many will go into exile. Read the words of the prophet Daniel. Read Isaiah. Read Zechariah, etc… Their words are not conditional words. Corporately there is no avoiding these things. Individually however, God is even now calling out to you and other Jews who love him to repent of trusting in the works of your own hands (through elevating the words of the sages to that of God. Through trusting in such treaties, alliances etc) rather than trusting in God’s words and promises.
And lastly these meetings are a violation of Adnan’s own religion as the Quran and the overwhelming consensus of reputable Islamic ulema state that friendship between Jews and Muslims is sin:
Tafsir al-Jalayln:
Tafsir Tanwir Al-Miqbas min Ibn Abbas:
Tafsir Ibn Kathir:
So again, in summary, from the perspective of this Christian, the “problem” is that I want to see you obey the word of God given to you through your prophets. I desire this because I believe that their words are the word of God. In Adnan’s case however, I am happy when he disagrees with his own Scriptures as I reject them as having come from God. I hope that this has brought clarity to some of the concerns expressed here and by others.
Bless you,
Joel
December 10th, 2009 at 6:27 am
Dear Mr. Richardson,
Thank you for allowing me to express a Jewish view in your Christian forum. This is certainly a refreshing change from past encounters between our communities.
However, your entire entry seems to contradict your own opening statement: “Christians are always happy to see genuine peace and friendship between Jews and Muslims. We desire peace.” Do you? What kind of peace do you desire? A peace where all Jews would “repent” and accept Christianity?
You claim that the Rabbis who met with Adnan Oktar / Harun Yahya are guilty of forming “a religious alliance and some utterly unbiblical theological declarations”. Can you prove these accusations, please? Can you show facts that contradict the Bible? Which Bible are we talking about exactly, the Christian parts or the Hebrew Bible that Christianity claims to share with Judaism?
When you write that I “have sinned by elevating the words and thoughts of man with that of G-d”, are you not projecting your own guilt onto the Jews? Was Jesus a man or is he a god? If G-d had a human son, are you and all Christians not “elevating the words and thoughts of man with that of G-d”?
Your quote of Exodus 34:12-17 proves my point, not yours. That’s probably why your quote is partial. The holy text is:
“Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest they be for a snare in the midst of thee. But ye shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and ye shall cut down their Asherim. For thou shalt bow down to no other god; for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous G-d; lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go astray after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and they call thee, and thou eat of their sacrifice; and thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go astray after their gods, and make thy sons go astray after their gods. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.”
I’m sure you do not need my human help to understand this text. So please, explain to me how a peace between Jews and Muslims violates this prohibition against idolatry? Do Muslims believe in idols or bow down to Asherim? Do they have molten gods in their mosques?
I cannot agree with you more when you write: “True interfaith dialogue must not involve either party violating or compromising their own religion.” So now be honest and tell me if you want the Jews to compromise their religion or not. Have the Jews ever tried to convert Christians by force, tortured them, persecuted them, built gas chambers to exterminate them? Are all these typically Jewish sins? Have we ever asked you to compromise your religion? Or perhaps you are still trying to show me in this very page that I am a sinner, whose soul is doomed to hell, because I follow the words Of Almighty G-d given to Moses on Mount Sinai?
Are you not doing the same to Mr. Oktar, whom you claim to love? Your line with him is amazing: If a Muslim says that he loves and respects Christians and Jews, then you prove that he is not a real Muslim, because you know his own religion better than he does. But if a Muslim bombs innocent civilians, then he is a good Muslim, because according to your vast knowledge and divine wisdom – Islam is bad. Ergo: being a good person cannot go together with being a Muslim, a Jew or any other non-Christian.
Unlike you, Jews have always accepted all monotheists as EQUALS, who have the same part in Heaven. Can you accept non-Christians? What does your “love” mean, Mr. Richardson? Who is your real god?
December 10th, 2009 at 8:07 am
Ehud,
Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But deceitful are the kisses of an enemy. Proverbs 27:6
I have said what I said. If you wish to engage in purposeful diversionary tactics, entering into accusations and discussions of torture and gas chambers, this is your choice.
I am calling you to obey the words of your own Scriptures above the “sages”. And yes, I do claim that this is a “sin” of modern day rabbinic Judaism. If you can quote Rambam better than you can quote Isaiah, then there is a serious problem in my opinion. Now, if you wish to claim that this commandment in Exodus is merely an injunction against literal idolatry and not also a command against worshipping gods other than Yahweh as well as against forming alliances with the surrounding nations, then this is also your choice. I can hear the arguments of the ancient idolatrous Israelite as he honored Baal. ‘Baal is simply the Amalekites’ way to say the name of Yahweh. We all worship the same God. So this is okay.’ Ehud, your argument is with God, not me.
Regarding Islam; I do not define it. I simply take its sacred texts for what they say. I quoted the Quran and three very revered Quranic commentators to show that I am not imposing my view onto the text. I am always happy when a Muslim ignores commands like this, especially if I value their friendship. For if they obeyed it, then we could not be friends. But for me to claim that the Quran itself does not forbid our friendship would be untrue. Is this what you desire of me? To deny what is right before me? Are you sure that you do not wish to make me like you?
If you wish me to show you where your/our prophets speak of the coming of the Messiah (who is Himself Yahweh) to deliver the Jewish people in the midst of being overcome through an invasion of the surrounding nations and from exile, it would require that I quote nearly a third of the entire corpus of the prophets. But for a start, read Daniel, Isaiah 60-63, Ezekiel 37-39, Zechariah 12-14, Obadiah.
Bless you, Joel
December 10th, 2009 at 9:20 am
Mr. Richardson,
Why don’t you simply answer my question? Do you accept Jews and Muslims as your equals or not?
I decided to ignore your hostile tone. It seems to be part of your religion. I do not wish to prove who is wrong and ignorant, just to ask you if you can ever accept people who do NOT believe in any other god, including G-d’s supposed family relatives. Can you simply answer that?
May (the ONE) G-d bless you too.
Ehud
December 10th, 2009 at 11:23 am
Ehud:
I will give you an answer from my point of view, which is probably similar to Joel’s (although he can clarify for himself):
I would accept Jews and Muslims as equals in regard to humanity and God’s love for each of us. However, if they do not accept Jesus as He said He was (”I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one can come to the Father except through Me”), then no, I would not accept them as fellow believers. In fact, to Orthodox Jews and Muslims, my understanding and acceptance of Jesus as Immanuel, God with us (Isaiah 7:14/Matthew 1:22-23), is most blasphemous to them. It is essential to my faith. If we differ on such a major issue, how could we possibly be brothers (and sisters) under the same God?
I hope that makes sense.
God bless!
December 10th, 2009 at 11:32 am
Dear Mishael,
Thank you for your honesty.
Now everything is out in the open, cards on the table and so forth.
I rest my case.
Shalom,
Ehud
December 10th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Ehud I do wish you would obey the Old Testament Prophets rather than thelogical inovators such as Ramban.
Ramban even changed the Shema to make it less trinitarian and more monotheistic.
All the OT Prophets were, at the very least, proto-trinitarians. The OT itself is fully trinitarian it was only during the intertestanent period that the heretical monotheistic interpretation began to get a tight grip. Ehud why are the nouns for God and Lord plural? Don’t you have even a slight doubt about the Magestic Plural excuse?
I look forward to hearing from you.
Yours in Christ Leftie
December 10th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
Am I to understand that all Christians believe in many gods, or is it just “Leftie”’s faith?
Can anyone explain how and when Ramban “changed the Shema”?
Hello, folks, do we live on the same planet?
December 10th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
Ehud you’ll have to give me a few hours to get back home so I can reply in full.
In the mean time yes we are on the same planet -but you can speak for yourself
No we, like the OT prophets, are trinitarian.
BTW if you want to really roll your sleaves up and have good debate ask Joel for my Email address.
December 10th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
Leftie,
It is night in Jerusalem and I shall probably be asleep in a few hours.
I don’t mind debating with anyone out in the open. The truth is neither shy nor cowardly. However, if you are a polytheist, I don’t think we would have much to discuss. Call me primitive (or anything else for that matter), but I firmly believe in only ONE G-D!
Claiming that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David and all the others were pagans is really interesting. I must admit that I have never heard such a creative piece of pagan revisionism before.
Hey, Joel, are you following this?
Is this your faith too?
Did Abraham believe in Jesus?
If he didn’t - is his soul burning in hell right now?
Peace be upon you all. May the good Lord cure your hearts from all that hatred and confusion.
Ehud
A monotheistic Jew
December 10th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
Ehud you are a unitarian Jew. Neither the Disciples nor Adam to the final human author of the OT were unitarian. I’ll come back to this.
So the Shema, earlier I mentioned that Ramban had altered it. The Scriptual Shema has echad as opposed to the yachid that Ramban used. Why did a commited unitarian do this Ehud? Echad means a united one or one for instance husband and wife become one (echad) or the people were united echad would be a good word. Yachid by contrast means sole, unique, or alone.
Ehud could you explain why even though the Hebrew words for Deity are plural yet translated as singular? Would you be willing to admit that modern Hebrew is diferent to OT Hebrew? I’m confident you will as the truth isn’t scared or cowardly.
The New Testament makes many trinitarian statements without preamble An example is the opening verses of the Gospel of John;”In the begining was the Word and the Word Was with God and was God……” This is why it would be best to exchange emails as there is too much stuff to cover. We could let Joel put it online here if u like.
December 10th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Ehud,
To be clear, my introduction to you began with your accusatory comments above. I responded honestly and directly, but certainly lovingly. Now you have continued your accusations and judgments stating that I am hostile, hateful and confused. You state that my disagreement with you entails that I do not value you as an equal human being. And finally you put the icing on this cake of irony by expressing that all Christian Trinitarians are polytheists, pagans and unworthy of even having a conversation with. Wow. What can I say to this? Psychologically this is an example of what is called projection and/or transference. I have no hostility for you in the least. My heart for you is simply that you would find the same mercy that I have found in Yeshua the prophesied Messiah, Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom, who will come again to judge the living and the dead. And yes, I am very curious as to your thoughts as to why Rambam felt the need to change the Shema.
Sincerely, Joel
December 10th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
Ehud it’s too difficult for me to present things in this format.
I’d love to exchange email addresses via Joel and, with your concent,
we could publish our exchanges?
I think this would be a realy fascinating debate! Also you are very right truth isn’t shy or cowardly. What say you?
December 11th, 2009 at 1:45 am
For the record, not accepting certain people as fellow believers doesn’t mean I (or others) have hatred toward those people. Why is that your assumption? Is it to make us look like horrible people? “Love your neighbor” doesn’t mean “love your brother” only; it means loving your neighbor, whether he’s a brother or a stranger or an enemy. You probably already know that - so do we.
Friendship is not restricted, but brotherhood is. Do you agree that God is not contradictory? How then can people from two contradictory beliefs (e.g., Jesus is God versus Jesus is not God*) possibly belong to the same God and therefore be brothers? “A house divided against itself cannot stand.”
*Note the wording there: Jesus is God, not Jesus is a god. One God - yes, we all agree on that. I don’t deny that tri-unity (”trinity”) is a complicated issue. But if you want to discuss that, there are others here who will be better at it than me.
December 11th, 2009 at 4:45 am
1) Leftie,
Firstly, I should probably thank you for teaching me the correct grammar of my own language, Hebrew. This is just the same as Mr. Joel Richardson teaching Islam to a devout Islamic thinker like Mr. Adnan Oktar and the Hebrew Bible to me and other religious Jews. What would you think if I teach you some English and correct your understanding of your own national culture and history?
May I humbly remind you of Joel’s statement in this exchange: “True interfaith dialogue must not involve either party violating or compromising their own religion”. So why do you all try so hard to make me violate or compromise my own religion? Of course, it is easy for me to answer your points, but I am honestly holding myself back, because my religion does not promote ridiculing arrogant ignoramuses.
2) This applies to you too, Mr. Joel Richardson.
You are not saying the truth. You keep presenting yourself as loving and tolerant, but as Mishael has admitted earlier, you do not accept my right to practice my religion. You are actually upset that Muslims like Mr. Adnan Oktar and Jews like the Rabbis who visited him can tolerate, respect and love each other.
What is the ideological difference between your deep intolerance and radical Muslim’s rejection of Jews and Christians?
I am not here to discuss theology with all of you. Evidently, the gaps between Judaism and Christianity are too wide and they have all been explored by many people who were more knowledgeable than me and you. But I am here to discuss the values of the free society, in which we both live. Tolerance, freedom of religion and civic liberties require a measure of humility and mutual respect between different segments of our society. We may think that the other is wrong and we are right, but preaching AGAINST another religion cannot be considered as “love”.
3) Mishael,
Your views about brotherhood are uniquely Christian. Both Islam and Judaism preach pluralism. Joel’s very partial quotes from Islamic and Judaic sources (often horrifically mistranslated) completely distort both these religions. Islam calls Jews and Christians ‘People Of The Book’ and commands its followers to treat them positively (unless they attack Muslims and their faith). Judaism states very clearly that all people who believe in ONE G-D and accept minimal moral values are EQUAL to devout Jews. Both Islam and Christianity are considered by Judaism as legitimate forms of monotheism for any non-Jew.
If you and others can accept such a tolerant approach without feeling that your own faith is being violated or compromised, then we have a chance of living in peace. As a Jew, I believe that the Hebrew Bible commands us to make peace and this will speed up the redemption and the Messianic Age. If we struggle together against hatred, bigotry and intolerance, we may increase faith in all three religions and push aside both atheism and violent pseudo-religious radicalism.
Is there any chance of joining hands with you in the quest of redeeming the world in true faith and peace?
Blessings from holy Jerusalem,
Ehud
December 11th, 2009 at 7:00 am
Oh Jeruslaem, Jerusalem…
Truly Isaiah was correct when he said: “Go and tell this people: ” ‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.” Then I said, “For how long, O Lord?” And he answered: “Until the cities lie ruined and without inhabitant, until the houses are left deserted and the fields ruined and ravaged…
December 11th, 2009 at 11:22 am
Ehud, I am curious. (Thanks for sharing, by the way.) Do you believe God accepts contradictory beliefs about Himself? Is God reasonable and logical? Is He the source of Truth? If He is, then how can contradictory statements about Himself both be true and reasonable? Please answer this so I can understand your view of Him.
I am not against people believing what they want to believe. We have all been given free will by God, and it’s not our right to take it away from others. Do I wish all would believe and accept Jesus as the Messiah? Of course I do, as I believe He is the only way to the Father as He said and I want all to be with God forever; but that doesn’t mean I wish it to be forced on them. Nor does it mean I hate people who reject Him as Messiah and treat them as lesser people. If we can live in peace while respectfully discussing our different beliefs, what they are and why we follow them, then great. But I don’t have to accept Islam as a religion following the one true God in order to live in peace with Muslims, just as I don’t have to accept atheism to live in peace with those who are atheists (I have friends and family who are this).
December 11th, 2009 at 11:45 am
Ehud,
I’ve been following the exchange with you with a combination of sadness and bemusement. Honestly the only one with a “hostile tone” is you. I think the Christians have engaged you directly, but politely.
Sadness, because of your unwillingness to address some very plain truths, and bemusement, because of your own contradictory attitudes–I love this one in your latest post, in the same paragraph: “May I humbly remind you…” and then “…my religion does not promote ridiculing arrogant ignoramuses.” Ha! Now that’s funny.
But anyway, sure go ahead and correct our English. Why not, why would anyone really care or be offended by that? Actually, my attitude is–”Wow, a Jew, living in Jerusalem, speaking multiple languages…”–in other words, respect!
On the other hand, you really didn’t address the issue–that is, was the Shema language changed as Leftie stated? Why? What would be the basis for a plural pronoun in the original language anyway? Does the Jewish scripture support a trinitarian view of God, what with descriptions of God sending His Spirit, the Angel of the Lord, etc., or not? Don’t respond with ad-hominum attacks.
Secondly, there is a BIG difference between tolerance and agreement, respect and acceptance. While we should always be tolerant and respectful, that does not mean that the truth goes out the window.
Thirdly, the religion of Jesus is not pluralistic–cannot be, and should not be. That does not mean we are not being loving–would it be more loving to just comfort the cancer sufferer, or remove the tumor?
Yeshua plainly stated that “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one can come to the father but by me.” In other words, he is the Lamb of God to which all those earlier animal sacrifices were looking forward. He is the Jewish Messiah, prophesied to come for centuries. He is returning again soon to throw off the coming oppression of the Jews by you know who–just read your scriptures.
With love,
Kurt
December 11th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
Kurt thanks for your input Ehud won’t be replying until end of Shabbat Saturday sundown.
Sadly he doesn’t want to play ball. I’ve spoken more robustly with fundamentalist muslims who have been more courteous and open to discussion.
Very very sad to be honest. He prefers his enemies over his friends.
I’ll try and continue what I had started yesterday on John and Genesis.
Also I’m looking at writting an online open source document on Trinitaranism in the OT I’ll be approaching an academic
Who has looked into this and already published work on it.
December 11th, 2009 at 7:22 pm
Leftie,
I don’t meant to butt in, but its just so interesting and FUN! I don’t want to gang up on Ehud. I’m glad he wrote and is at least dialoguing–may more and more Jews, Muslims and others do so.
I’ll leave things in yours, Joel’s and other’s very capable hands (that is, uh, for now)
Ehud, I hope you had a blessed Sabbath. Did you know that you can experience THE eternal Sabbath in Jesus, the AMAZING Son of God??
Bless you all,
Kurt
December 12th, 2009 at 5:20 am
Hey Kurt you’re more than welcome to butt in
The concerned is happy for me to do this. So I’ll be starting soon.
December 12th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Dear Leftie, Mishael, Kurt and Joel,
Well, I am only one here, trying my poor best to answer you all. I can sense that some of you are truly honest people with sincere faith in your religion and a kind human approach. Otherwise, I would have stopped trying to reason with you long ago. So let us please try to focus this discussion.
As I wrote before, I am not here to convince you that your faith is wrong and mine is right. If I made remarks that offended anyone before, I can explain that I felt attacked by many of your statements, but that does not justify my error. I wish to apologise for anything I said that may have hurt your feelings.
Now, my point is simple: There are a few devout Jews and Muslims who advocate peace based on their sincere religious faith. You may call us naive, or stupid, or terribly misguided and unreralistic. But we still hope to find pious Christians who would join our vision and promote spiritual efforts to counter both atheism and pseudo-religious hatred and violence.
Please believe me, I am not incapable of answering your various theological claims. Most of them have been addressed for many centuries by both Christian and Jewish scholars. But what is the point in repeating those ideological fist fights? You think that I am horribly wrong (to the point of Joel quoting prophecies of destruction of Jewish cities), but I refuse to join the battle. I do not want to change your faith, nor do I feel any need to defend mine. If you really want to learn more about Judaism, in a positive spirit, I can answer your claims. But please stop ignoring MY question: Can we hope to embrace peace as true believers and work together to achieve it, or must we preach against other religions and allow the atheists to present all religious folks as the enemies of peace?
Shalom to you all,
Ehud
December 12th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Ehud,
Hey, no problem, no offense taken. Thanks for writing again.
Here’s the last lines of your post above:
“But please stop ignoring MY question: Can we hope to embrace peace as true believers and work together to achieve it, or must we preach against other religions and allow the atheists to present all religious folks as the enemies of peace?”
Here’s my answer; I’ll let others speak for themselves: I am commanded to love. That means, among other things, I am to not harm you, I am to let you live as you see fit within the parameters of the law; i.e., do not murder, do not steal, do not bear false witness, etc.
But love also requires that we “speak the truth in love” (Ephesians 4:15). As a result, we are telling you what your prophetic scriptures say about the latter days (Daniel 2:28, 10:14). Where you are currently seeking peace, you will not find it, or at best, it will be temporary and deceptive. All along, actually, we have been trying to anwer your question–you just don’t like the answer.
Yeshua the Jewish Messiah (to whom I’ve been grafted in) said that in Him we have peace, not as the world gives (i.e., temporary, conditional) John 14:27 and 16:33.
I suppose you think your question still hasn’t been answered–to rephrase the above: Any peace that requires ignoring the truth will come back to bite you in the A*s–go to the true source of peace!!
What you are looking for (Israel peaceful and free) actually WILL happen, but under Messiah’s leadership only. He is coming. Receive His love now, so you don’t receive His wrath later.
Peace out.
December 12th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Oh, the other thing, Ehud, you WILL find soon LARGE groups of “pious Christians” who will join your “vision and promote spiritual efforts to counter both atheism and pseudo-religious hatred and violence.” They will lay down essential truths for the larger goal of just getting along. It will soon be WONDERFUL, from a certain point of view.
All sorts of believers from different faiths will unify and join the Harlot, as described in the last book of the New Testament, Revelation, chapters 17 and 18. Man, watch out for them. All they care about is their own skins and this present age.
That “love fest” though will only last a short time, a matter of years. You DON’T want to join that. Better to suffer persecution for holding to the truth.
There are some great fellowships in Israel of believers, both Jew and Gentile, in Messiah. There is a fantastic one atop Mt. Carmel that I highly recommend, though that’s a drive for you. Might be worth visiting sometime though.
December 12th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Kurt J.,
I honestly don’t follow your contradictions. You “love” and promote peace, but you still threaten all those who do not share your perception of the “truth”.
One thing we have in common: We believe in the coming of the Messiah, who will bring true peace to this world, save all our souls and correct all our mistakes.
Perhaps we should just wait and see what the final verdict will be? In this case, I cannot see how we can develop this discussion in a positive direction… Any facts that I may bring to your attention can only result in further threats…
Now, if the moderator wants me to stop bothering you all, please let me know. I have no desire to impose myself on anyone and none of you has shown any desire to discuss ways of cooperating as members of three different religions. I’ll be happy to engage in a positive dialogue, but the decision is entirely yours.
I can only pray for you as my fellow human brothers. I’m sure you’re doing the same for my poor soul. Maybe that’s good enough?
Ehud
Still a Jew…
December 12th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Ehud you’re not bothering anyone so feel free to carry on if you wish.
However the conversation is dying a naturel death as this post is off the
front page. As you don’t want to email in private I won’t be doing so as todo
otherwise would be rude and counterproductive.
In anycase I’m somewhat distracted by one finding work abroad and two
complaining to the BBC about it’s recent genocide revisionism and passing as much
Info to the Rwandan Embassy.
Anywhy Ehud have a good weekend, and on a lighter note stay off the
Macabee Beer stick to the Heineken. I don’t know which is worse (Rwandan
Primus) Beer or MB;-)
December 12th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
I have just sent you an e-mail, inviting you to start playing your ball.
December 12th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
Ehud,
I want to address your deeper questions while also avoid theological disputation, as I think that your questions deserve an answer. You stated and asked:
What I have been attempting to articulate, whether in my meetings with Mr. Oktar or various Muslims or in my e-mail exchanges with Rabbis Abrahamson and Hollander is that certainly there is room for interfaith dialogue and even deep friendships between people of different faiths. However, true “interfaith dialogue” and or friendships must first and foremost be honest. My experience in the past is that the overwhelming majority of these types of encounters emphasize our similarities and commonalities. There is certainly value in this. However, it must go beyond this. We must not only acknowledge our deep differences, but also the history that precedes such meetings. And the bottom line is that there are deep differences between our respective faiths. The only way to claim that this is not to case, is to ignore what each of our respective sacred texts, as well as the general consensus and most widely respected scholars /spokespersons say. Thus for many, particularly those who have an agenda, the temptation to smooth over, compromise on or even outright eliminate the differences is immense. In the Middle East, I am sure that this temptation is multiplied many times.
Now, while some of my Christian brothers and sisters may disagree with me, I am entirely open to working toward common goals that we all can agree on. For instance, if a Jew, Muslim, atheist or agnostic wishes to work with me against abortion, human slavery or terrorism, then I am happy to work with them on such issues. Years ago, an Ashram of Sikhs used to donate a large pot of vegetarian chili weekly to help me feed the poor in my city. They wished to help and I welcomed the donation. I used my feeding ministry to preach my Christian message, and the Sikhs agreed to donate the chili without any strings tied. Thus my message was not compromised. So to be clear, I would reject any such common labor if working together in any way shape or form inferred or led any to believe that the aforementioned deep theological disagreements do not exist. If it diluted the integrity of my own faith and message, even in the eyes of outsiders, then I want nothing to do with such alliances. My reason is because I believe wholeheartedly that the best and surest hope for this world is found in the message that I proclaim, the good news or “the Gospel” as it is called: All men must repent of their sins, place their trust in Yahweh and His promised Davidic Messiah: Yahshua. After transferring their faith from themselves to Yahweh and His Son, we should fix our hopes on the Coming Day of the Lord, the return of Yahshua, the resurrection and the judgment of the dead, and the rule of this same Messiah over the earth from Jerusalem. This was a brief explanation, and obviously a book could be written on the greater issues here, but I hope that this has somewhat articulated my position.
Blessings, Joel
December 12th, 2009 at 8:16 pm
Leftie is right…wait, that’s funny! (Ha, I made a joke–do you get it, left…right…never mind). But he’s correct in that the energy of this thread is fading since its no longer on the Joel’s Trumpet front page.
Please, continue to visit here, post, dialogue, debate. You are not unwelcome because you disagree; I think we can at least all agree on that.
Now the only word I take exception to in your last post is “threaten”. I like the word “warn” better; “Threaten” is really inaccurate. Its not in my heart to threaten you or anyone. I sure hope you can AT LEAST see that what WE believe about ourselves is that we are being as LOVING as we possibly can to you, as loving as we would be with each other.
And to end with: Forget the Heineken, Primus, Macabees–have you tried Sierra Nevada Pale Ale? Chico, CA to Jerusalem is a long way, but surely some has made it there.
God bless you,
Kurt
December 13th, 2009 at 4:34 am
Well to stoke the dieing embers of this thread.
“And to end with: Forget the Heineken, Primus,
Macabees–have you tried Sierra Nevada Pale Ale? Chico,
CA to Jerusalem is a long way, but surely some has made it there”
Sorry Kurt but American Beer is an oxymoron an American wouldn’t
know a good beer if it jumped up and bit his backside nor can an
American make good beer. To taste a proper beer you have to visit the UK
or europe.
Now if that doesn’t cause the thread count to double by tonight I don’t
know what will.
Let the flame fest begin! Te He!
December 13th, 2009 at 6:02 am
Joel,
No one has asked you to denounce your faith. Similarly, Adnan Oktar has not asked you or Rabbis Hollander, Abrahamson, Rahimi, Lebel, Froman and others to embrace Muhammad as a true porophet. The whole point is to send each other pots of chili (I prefer Humus) and not bombs, rockets and words of hatred. That’s all.
Bless you,
Ehud
December 13th, 2009 at 10:01 am
Ehud,
To be clear, oviously hugs are better than bombs. And personally I also prefer hummus over vegetarian chilli. But I also prefer baba ganoush over hummus. But the meeting above was more than mere hugs. As I said already, it contained some fairly revolutionary theological statements by Rabbi Abrahamson.
An aside: I actually expect those from other religions such as Islam, not to demand, but at the least, to invite me to change my faith. For Muslims, this is part of their tradition; dawah or what we Christians call evangelism. Likewise the Rabbis have a desire to get Gentiles to become Noahides. This is all fine with me and as I said, expected. Again, to invite others to that which you believe in is honest. The way that I try to express it is that I am simply one beggar telling another beggar where there is food. If they are not interested, that is also fine. When I met with Adnan, I did invite him to become a Christian and to become a follower of the Jesus of the Bible as opposed to the Jesus of Islam.
But back to the point: While I am okay with working with people who do not believe as I do, I refuse to do so under the banner that we all worship the same God and all of our books are from God. This is and much more is what was expressed in meeting above and in many others like it. The Rabbis express that the Quran is an inspired book from God and that Islam is a primal religion essentially practiced by Adam. Curiously would they also say that New Testament is a book from God? The Quran also states that Jesus / Yeshua is the Messiah. How can a non-Messianic, Talmud-oriented Jew agree with this?
Now, regarding the notion that we all worship the same God: While this could be said to be true in the most loose and broad sense, (for their is afterall only one God, only one creator of all), how we each view, understand and proclaim that one God is vastly different. Thus I am unable to enter into any agreement which infers that we all worship the same God. To do so is to compromise my faith. Yet when I refuse, when I embrace my faith rather than some vague monotheistic religious pluralism, I am scolded by those who claim that I am being stubborn or divisive, hateful and intolerant. To me this is simply nonsense.
Also, while Adnan has not personally asked me to change my faith, he has stated that under the reign of the Mahdi, belief in the Trinity will be unacceptable. Yet I was clear to explain to him that I would not renounce this belief even unto death, nor would any true Christian.
Blessings, Joel
December 13th, 2009 at 11:36 am
First off, amen to everything Joel just wrote above.
Now Leftie, as a Brit–do you consider Heineken a “proper beer”? Maybe that’s the best available in Israel? I’ve had Heineken–have you had SV Pale Ale? Please try some–you might then quit your “oxymoron” talk…
http://www.sierranevada.com
Cheers,
Kurt
December 13th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Kurt I’m very disapointed you are the only one who’s responded to my
wind-up so far. I’d at least hoped for 40 replies by now.
Any how on a more mature note I haven’t tried a pale ale for a long time. Aparantly
some English Pale Ales were designed to last the long boat journies from
UK to India. I think I’ll try a pale ale this week.
However I’m trying to lose weight beer doesn’t help -so my favourite tiples are Single Malt Scotch
Whiskies Glenmorange or Singleton of Dufftown.
December 13th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
Leftie,
I’ll take the bait. (Though some anti-Joel Richardson site will likely pick this up immediately. And as such, I must clarify that while I do have the occasional beer with friends, I am not a huge authority on this issue). The US does have some great microbreweries. Sam Adams is a good larger American brewer. Their Cream Stout may even rivals Guinness. But in the end, my favorite beer comes from Germany: Einbecker Schwarzbier. The best in the world. Hands down.
We also happen to be the makers of the following beer which may bring this discussion full circle:
http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/262/12694
Blessings, Joel
December 13th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
TeHe my cunning plan is working 3 down 37 to go!
December 13th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Joel,
Just one correction, please.
You wrote that “the Rabbis have a desire to get Gentiles to become Noahides”. This is NOT true. Unlike Christianity and Islam, Judaism has never wanted to convert anyone to anything. According to most Jewish religious authorities, you ARE a Noahide. You do NOT have to leave Christianity or change your faith and practices in any way. You DO have a place in Paradise just like any other faithful believer. As I wrote before, Judaism is inherently pluralistic. Even our vision of the Messianic Age is not totalitarian and allows for many paths to worship G-d.
All we ever asked from the non-Jewish world is to let us be. Just ignore us, pretend that we do not exist anymore. We never tell anyone what to believe in and what to do, so just please let us keep our faith and our ways.
Are we asking too much?
Bless you,
Ehud
December 13th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
Ehud,
On one hand, you say what you said above, yet on the other hand, you have stated that we are pagans. So I would admit to a slight bit of confusion as to your beliefs.
I certainly understand the desire to be left alone in light of your history. My thoughts are this: You are called by God to be a light to the Gentiles. I do not pretend to know precisely all that this entails, but I would say that asking to be left alone is not the best way to fulfill this mandate. I for one am doing my best to fight for your right to exist and to defend yourself, etc. I do my best to correct the lies that are spread about the Jews and Israel whenever I see them crop up. However, I also believe that the surrounding nations will not leave you alone. Their own prophetic tradition will not allow them to. They believe that it is their divine mission to crush you. Not all, of course, but most. This is also stated only too many times throughout the prophets that before Messiah returns, the nations will surround Israel, tread Jeruslaem underfoot for 42 months and exile many of its inhabitants. In brief, with such a high calling to birth His light into the nations, so also does the darkness resist.
Blessings, Joel
December 14th, 2009 at 1:56 am
“Light to the Gentiles”…the very verse I thought of when I read Ehud’s last post about ‘wanting to be left alone.’
You might have some temporary reprieve Ehud, but your enemies (which ain’t us, I can guarantee you) are NOT going to leave you alone.
Our heart is that you walk out your full destiny, as described in the Word of God.
Do you know what Saul/Paul (a Jew through and through) said about your (Israel’s) rejection of her Messiah? This is from Romans 11:15:
“For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?”
You should read it in context. Surely you can find a New Testament?
G*d (who although we don’t know exactly how to pronounce His name, has known yours from the foundation of the world) BLESS you.
December 14th, 2009 at 6:10 am
Joel & Kurt J.,
You keep evading the question. Do you want to convert me to your faith or do you not? And on the other hand: Do I, or the Rabbis, want to persuade you to leave your religion? Did we send you “proofs” that your religion is wrong or did you claim that the Hebrew Bible is “trinitarian” and my faith is wrong?
Hence, can you understand that we want to be left in peace?
You know, I think I should probably be frank with you and talk about your love, friendship and suppoort of Israel. Please, don’t distort my words this time.
I believe you that you are honest in your support of the Jewish State in its struggle against its enemies. Now its your turn to believe me that nearly all the Jews in Israel are deeply grateful for your support and friendship. We Jews are not used to having friends, as you know, and sincerely appreciate any single person who is kind to us. But you also know that we have a reputation for being somewhat stubborn. Generations of Jews refused to give up their faith even in times of danger, as well as in times of temptation.
This week, we are celebrating the festival of Hanukka, which marks our resistance to both these forces. We all know the stories about the heroic believers who were willing to die rather than violate the word of G-d. But Hanukka also marks the victory of the faithful few over the many Jews who chose to surrender to the temptations of the Greek culture and religion. The Hasmoneans fought against the Greek cruel oppression, as well as against the Hellenised Jews who attempted to distort the heritage of Israel. So the Jewish lesson of Hanukka is that we must always remain faithful to the will of G-d, even when the proposition to leave His ways appears to be very appealing.
Your friendship and support are much appreciated, but your constant pressure to convert us is perceived as hostile and intolerant, to put it mildly. As Christians who may still remember the persecutions by the Romans, you must at least try to understand how Jews have felt for centuries in their exile. If you say that you love us, then we are very happy and grateful. But if you support us because you hope to tempt us to abandon our faith, then frankly, you are wasting your time.
As for the “light unto the nations”, you are right of course. The good Lord commanded us to keep all His commandments, to be kind and charitable and to believe in no other gods, so that we may become a role model for all humanity. This means only one thing to the Jews: We must improve ourselves, demand more of ourselves, and do His holy will. If you expect us to be better, then you are very correct. But if you think that this gives you the right to preach at us, change us, mold us and shape our lives to suite your own outlook, then you have missed the point completely. It is simply none of your business. It is our holy challenge and only G-d can judge His creatures.
One more point, with your permission, and this is about the Messiah. Let us leave aside for now the question who the King Messiah is / was / will be. We can never agree on that and remain members of different religions who try to understand each other. Let us talk about the ‘How’.
We both agree that the prophecies describe a horrible war and all kinds of mysterious events before the redemption. We call it the war of Gog and Magog and you call it Armageddon. However, the Hebrew Bible promises repeatedly that if we listen to G-d’s words and do His will, then the Messiah may appear in a more peaceful manner. I don’t know if this is also accepted by the Christian theology, but you must understand that we Jews keep praying for centuries for the coming of the Messiah and hope that the latter scenario will become reality. If you cannot accept our understanding, we must respect your faith, but it makes us very sad. If you actually hope to see my people going up in flames (yet again), then I hope that you can understand that I cannot embrace your vision with tremendous joy. In such a case, your hope and dream becomes my nightmare.
Mind you, it does NOT have to be a theological dispute. Some Jews also believe that the “final war” is inevitable. But many people believe that it already happened. According to some views, the redemption started about 150 years ago, when the Children of Israel started to return to the Promised Land. Then the great wars - WWI and WWII and all the wars in Israel - fulfilled the prophecies about Gog and Magog, and now we are fast approaching the final stages of the actual Messianic Kingdom, G-d willing. However, no one can prove if this is the truth or not. Maybe you are right and we must face yet another apocalypse, G-d forbid! Maybe the Muslim world will attack us, who knows? Unless you prove to me that you are a prophet yourself, then none of us can know the answer for sure.
So what should we do in the meantime?
I suggest that we:
Pray
Do good deeds
Be honest
Give charity
Respect our fellow humans
Act justly
Feed the hungry
Be modest
Offer peace to all
Love goodness
Hate hatred and bigotry
Can we agree on these and work together, even if you think that I am horribly wrong?
But if you can’t let go and must continue the pressure on me, then you have to understand that I want to be left alone. Since I am a guest in your web site, this means that I will have to get out and disappear into thin air. Don’t feel bad about it, I am quite used to this.
May G-d give you all His best blessings,
Ehud
December 14th, 2009 at 7:05 am
Ehud,
I have not had a chance to read your full post, but will. But I will say that yes, I want you to “see” and accept Yeshua as your Messiah, Lord and Savior. To me this is how you would become most fully Jewish. This however does not mean that you would need to convert to “Christianity”. Many Jews believe in Yeshau, and remain Jewish in every way. Would many of your former assumptions be challeneged? Of course. But again, the gospel is always intended to be freely offered, freely rejected or accepted. Its an invitation, not a threat. Yes, some of our people in the past acted this way, but it not defendable biblically (New Testament included in that comment). Can w be friends even if you have no interest without me constantly pestering you or berating you? Of course. However, most Jews that I have met had no desire to be friends with a gentile. My favorite memory was the repeated times when living in Jerusalem in 1994 that an Orthodox Jew would very enthusiastically approach me and ask if I was Jewish. “Not that I know of,” would normally be my answer. (There is a strong chance that I could be partially Jewish). To which the Jew would respond, “well, you were going that way, and I’m going this way (opposite direction). Have a good day.” Sometimes I wanted to say yes, just so that he would continue his friendliness toward me.
Blessings, Joel
December 14th, 2009 at 7:34 am
Gosh, Joel, please read what I wrote, at least show some courtesy, if not tolerance and open mindedness.
We’re going round in circles. I tend to agree that you “could be partially Jewish” since it seems that I’m not the only stubborn person here…
:-)
Ehud
PS
I have lots and lots of non-Jewish friends, including devout Christians, and none of us has ever put such pressures on the other. We share a million and one values, never walk the other way and never presume to tell each other how to be “better Jews”, “better Christians” or “better Muslims”.
December 14th, 2009 at 10:23 am
Ehud,
I did read your entire post. Very thorough & clear; best one yet. Thank you so much for taking the time to write to us your most preciously-held beliefs. I have never had this sort of interaction with a Jew.
Joel is correct that we want you to know the One we believe is your Messiah, but, also, that we don’t want you to change your religion–maybe fulfill your religion? You are no doubt aware of so-called Messianic Jews.
Last night at our local “Prayer House” (gathering place of Christians from many different denominations) we lit the Menorah candles up to the 4th night, talked about the meaning, and the blessings were said. God has been faithful to His people throughout the ages.
Ehud, in the end, if you don’t recognize Messiah now or ever, while we’re sad, you don’t become less of a friend. I do fully subscribe to your list of good works, and agree that we can work together on them.
Thank you for recognizing our support of your people–while the various gov’ts of the countries we hale from may vary in their support, most evangelical/bible-believing Christians very much support the Jews’ right to be there, east bank, Jerusalem, and all.
Joel, that’s interesting about your possible partial Jewish heritage. I’ve suspected that before reading your post above, both from your picture and your intellect which come through so clearly in your writings.
December 14th, 2009 at 10:25 am
Uh, sorry Ehud, meant to say “West Bank”…was in a little bit of a hurry.
And while I’m at it, I’d better say hang on to the Golan Heights!
December 14th, 2009 at 11:50 am
Dearest Kurt (may I drop the ‘J.’?),
I love your response. You are fully honest, yet sensitive to my feelings as a Jew. I applaud your warm humanity! Thanks.
Yes, I have heard of ‘Messianic Jews’, ‘Jews For Jesus’ and similar groups and individuals. They are tiny groups and highly controversial. I can explain at great length why their way/s cannot be acceptable to the vast majority of religious Jews, but that will drag me into the very areas that I refuse to enter, namely, criticism of the Christian doctrine and scriptures. My whole point has been all along that we need to lower the flames of conflict between our religions. Joel Richardson is on record as an opponent to this “trendy” and “unbiblical” peace orientation, while you seem to be more open to some of it.
The main reason I support the dialogue with Harun Yahya / Adnan Oktar (remember him? that’s how we started this thread) is because he preaches to Muslims against terrorism, violence, hatred and anti-Semitism. I disagree with him on many points of faith, and I’m sure that he cannot accept many of my Judaic principles. But I admire his courage and good will, his tact and human warmth. You know, it’s easy for us, living in relatively free societies, to take for granted our freedom to express our views. Mr. Oktar is actually risking his very life by preaching a message of love and tolerance toward Jews and Christians. He is persecuted by both radical Islamists and by the anti-religious Turkish authorities. The least we can do is encourage his brave stand against both.
I am very glad to hear that you lit the candles. I have just lit four candles in Jerusalem. Here is something we can certainly celebrate together. Shall we let these pure lights of faith prevail over the darkness of decadence, selfishness, hatred and violence?
Let us pray, each in his own way, for the speedy redemption of all humanity!
Ehud
December 14th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
Ehud,
I apologise for not reading your whole post before responding partially. I was on my way out the door. As I am again. I just wanted you to know that in my delay, I was not ignoring you. Blessings, Joel
December 14th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Ehud I’ve got my response off to you
December 15th, 2009 at 6:17 am
Quote from
http://www.muslimdialogue.com/toward-jewish-muslim-dialogue.html
“Christian-Jewish dialogue has been frustrated and, I am afraid, will continue as disputation-and-debate, because that which sets Judaism apart is more than mere differences. In point of fact, the Jewish and the Christian beliefs are mutually exclusive. The important Jewish affirmations are negated by Christianity and the important Christian beliefs are refuted by Judaism. There is no common ground shared by Judaism and Christianity. As for the Jewish legacy appropriated by Christianity in general and the Hebrew Bible in particular, they have been interpreted contrary to their Jewish meanings. Moreover, the Churches – not merely the Catholic Church – have “disinherited” the Jewish people, “The Israel of the Flesh” and proclaimed Christendom as “The True Israel of God.”
Beliefs are not subject to debate. The failure of Christian-Jewish dialogues is due to the notion of its advocates who have persuaded themselves that the mutually exclusive beliefs of Judaism and Christianity can be reconciled.
UNLIKE Christianity, Islam does not profess beliefs denying the legitimacy and integrity of Judaism, its parent. Islam did not, and does not, lay claim to having supplanted Judaism. It has no doctrine analogous to Christianity’s claim to being “The True Israel of God.” While the dissimilarities dividing Christianity from Judaism are so large and decisive that compromises are impossible, Islam and Judaism do not differ in their basic beliefs.”
December 15th, 2009 at 7:33 am
Ben,
Many Jews do not see belief in Jesus and Judaism exclusive, including the entirety of the early Church. This is called “replacement theology” and is considered heretical by a large percentage of the evangelical churches today, myself included.
Islam claims that Jews have corrupted your “books” and thus lost the true faith which is Islam.
December 15th, 2009 at 10:01 am
Joel wrote “This is called “replacement theology” and is considered heretical by a large percentage of the evangelical churches today, myself included.”
Replacement theology is still held by the majority of Churches.
But even evangelical churches hold to “replacement covenant theology”, whereby a Jew can no longer be “saved” by doing what his ancestors did: praying, fasting, repentance and good deeds. According to almost all Christians, once Jesus came, the old covenant was abolished (made obsolete) and a new covenant was created.
Thus the Jewish covenant is no longer valid, and all Jews - since Jesus - will die in sin unless they accept the new covenant.
In replacement theology, the Jew has been disinherited from his claim to the title “Israel”.
In replacement covenant theology, the Jew has been disinherited from eternal life.
Am I wrong?
December 15th, 2009 at 10:18 am
Ben,
Since Adam and Eve, the entire human race has been disinherited from eternal life. Forgiveness of sins was never available in animal sacrifices as prescribed in the Jewish scriptures. The sacrificial system looked forward to Israel’s Suffering Servant (Isaiah 52 and 53), the Messiah who came, via his perfect obedience, to reconcile man to God. By putting faith in God, as Abraham, the father of faith did, Jews prior to Christ were saved not through their good works, but by faith in God’s provision for them–the ram provided in lieu of Isaac, for example. This has been the same for every person on earth, since Adam’s disobedience. You can call that replacement covenant if you want, but every person past and present had/has access to God through the shed blood of Jesus.
Nonetheless, God has chosen Israel to be His special people on earth to reveal His glory and His Word–they will always be that, no one will “replace” them. We are heirs to the promise to them, grafted into them (every believer).
BTW, there are a lot more Messianic Jews than Mohammadan Jews–so your mutually exclusive statement is false.
December 15th, 2009 at 10:24 am
How could a Jew be saved before the coming of Jesus?
December 15th, 2009 at 10:35 am
Can a Jew be saved today “by putting faith in God, as Abraham, the father of faith did”?
Have they been disinherited?
(By the way, Rabbinic Judaism has never taught that one is saved through works, they teach that Jews are saved by prayer, fasting, repentance and a pure heart - which is expressed in good deeds).
Anyway the article I quoted (I didn’t write it), says that the differences between Christians and Jews are much bigger than between Jews and Muslims. Messianic Jews do not count because they are essentially Hebrew Christians, they have very little in common theologically with Jews.
December 15th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
Dear Ben,
prayer, fasting, and good deeds are works. While these things are good they cannot save you. In the old testament Jews showed their faith in God by observing the law which included a whole lot more than prayer, fasting, repentance and good deeds. But even then it was impossible to keep all the requirements of the law perfectly. (I think that was to show how imperfect we humans are, we can never live up to God’s perfect standard.)
So God provided the sacrificial system to atone for peoples sins. Priests had to offer sacrificial animals to atone for the sins of individual Jews and for the nation as a whole. Today Jews can not fulfill this requirement of the law anymore because there is no temple.
The new testament teaches that Jesus Christ fulfilled the law. The blood of animals never really could atone for sins. Those animal sacrifices just pointed towards the perfect lamb of God the Lord Jesus Christ who took away our sins. His blood atoned for all sins, people living in old testament times and today. If you put your faith in Jesus Christ you are putting your faith in God.
How would you explain that in old testament times Jews had to offer sacrifices for their sins to be forgiven, but today they can be forgiven without any sacrifices? If you put your faith in Jesus (who is Immanuel, God with us) you are forgiven through his sacrifice for you, because there is no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood.
I hope all this makes some sense to you, I’m not very good at explaining, and if there is anybody else here who would add to and clarify my explanation please feel free to do so.
God bless, Tina
December 15th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
Ben,
A bunch of abstract thoughts that will hopefully articulate my understanding somewhat. Obviously, God knows best.
The Song of Solomon, I understand is the most commented on book in all of the Tanakh.
Some interpret it to strictly literally: Solomon and the Shulamite(ess)
Some interpret it allegorically as referring primarily to God’s love for Israel (or God’s people in general)
Others interpret it allegorically to be referring God and the individual believer.
In all likelihood all three of these interpretations have validity. I want to zero in on the last one however as a common location where we can agree that God is one who desires an intimate personal relationship with each individual believer. This assumption regarding God is what underscores Christian theology: True religion must be founded on a genuine love relationship between God and the individual believer. A personal God must be related to personally. This is to be juxtaposed to a dead religion that cannot save which is a man-centered / rule oriented religion: a mere formula or set of rules whereby man can attain, achieve or God forbid, earn favor with God and earn His love and acceptance. Every man-created man initiated religion in the earth essentially boils down to man reaching out to God through his own good works or conforming to some formula. Jewish / Christian theology however portrays God reaching down to man. This God-initiated relationship is seen progressively in various sacrifices and or epiphanies throughout the Tanakh but always seen ultimately in the Messiah / the incarnation. From the Christian perspective, to reject the Messiah is to reject all of the Tamakh.
And so to your comment that man has always attained salvation through fasting, prayer, mitzvot etc. You may or may not agree, but if we view true religion through the lens of relationship as stated above, and not a rule oriented arrangement, then all of these things (fasting, prayer, good deeds) must be a love response rather than the means to attain His love. Thus the majority of Christian theology has always understood salvation as a free gift: God’s love and acceptance given freely to those who would trust Him. My good life I live, I live not to earn His love, but as a love response, a thank you, I love you too. This imputed righteousness is foreshadowed in numerous ways throughout the Tanakh. Salvation / righteousness has always been received freely from God through trusting in Him and His provision. If we approach God as one who demands our conformity to a set or rules or a formula, we ultimately creates the false notion that God owes us His forgiveness / salvation. God forbid.
I do not know if you agree with this or not. I do know that Shmuley Boteach in his Judaism For Everyone claims that Judaism has always believed in salvation through faith (trust). But again, it must be a trust that is rooted in God’s revelation which points us to Yeshua.
Sorry if this was all too rambling. I hope it made some sense.
Blessings!
December 15th, 2009 at 7:50 pm
Hmmm, Joel… *strokes chin* You make some good points there. I like that way of explaining it.
December 16th, 2009 at 1:31 am
I did mention “a pure heart”, which is not a work.
So if a Jew could be saved before Jesus with “a trust that is rooted in God’s revelation which points us to Yeshua” even if they did not know it, understand it, or even think that is what they are doing, why cannot they be “saved” today by doing the same thing?
December 16th, 2009 at 1:35 am
Either you must say that their covenant (revelation or whatever) that the Jews followed before Jesus is no longer valid - then you have replacement covenant theology, disinheriting the Jews. Nothing to talk about.
Or you say that their covenant (revelation or whatever) that the Jews followed before Jesus is still valid - then you have dual (or multi) covenant theology. Here we have something to talk about.
December 16th, 2009 at 11:16 am
Ben,
Do you think of Talmudic/Rabbinic teachings as being one unbroken chain for the last 4000 or so years? That’s not necessarily the case–certainly in Yeshua’s time there were several branches of Judaism. And at Shavu’ot after Yeshua’s resurrection, a poor Gallilean fisherman named Peter stood up and preached a sermon out of the Book of Joel, Psalms and other scriptures where 3000 Jews at one time turned to Yeshua for salvation from their the sins.
As our host Joel said above, its always been about relationship, about getting back to the Garden, to walk with the Lord. Think about Hosea marrying the harlot to symbolize God’s marriage to an unfaithful people–how God longs for RELATIONSHIP with individuals, the reason we were created. Think about Abraham, the father of faith (”He believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness” Gen 15:6)
So my point is, there have always been Jews who have recognized that God wants relationship, that we are saved by faith, and that Yeshua is the provision for our falleness. Jewish believers PRIOR to Yeshua were saved by placing faith in GOD’S provision–the lamb caught in the thicket, Messiah, 1st the suffering servant, 2nd the reigning Jewish king, who WILL sit on the Throne of David, in Jerusalem. He IS coming again, but this time without reference to sin, and HE WILL reign forever, as prophesied in the Tanahk.
December 16th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Ehud the Jew Says
I came into this a bit late as I was traveling but Ehud I am a lover of the Jewish people and also the Muslim people - both of you claim that there is one G-d which I also believe but in a trinity - If as you say that there is only one G-d singular please explain how G-d has written in Genesis 1:26 “Let “US” make man in “OUR” likeness - he continues on in 3:22 “The man has become like one of “US” many times throughout scripture he referes to himeself both in the plural form and also the singular form. I would just like to know your thoughts and explanations why he does this - how he can write about himself as being both singular and plural G-d - or more than one person in one God Head?
Ge 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air,over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground
Ge 3:22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever
Also G-g gave the commandments through the great prophet Moses - the first commandemt clearly states that we must not have any other Gods before him - so how can we as Christians or Jews accept and allow the involvment of the Islamic God Allah in our business of any kind - how can we allow hin as some how an equal?? - if it is peace or any other reason. God is very clear in that he is a Jealous G-d and he will protect his name and his authority for thousands of generations - I am very interested in the Jewish thoughts on this and the above
Ex 20:2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Ex 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before me. Ex 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. Ex 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, Ex 20:6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
December 16th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
Dear Ben,
I guess what you are saying is that you have a pure heart? Well, I don’t know you, but I couldn’t ever rely on my “pure heart” to one day stand in the presence of a holy God, my heart isn’t always that pure. It is Christ who makes me pure and cleanses me with His blood.
You say:
“So if a Jew could be saved before Jesus with “a trust that is rooted in God’s revelation which points us to Yeshua” even if they did not know it, understand it, or even think that is what they are doing, why cannot they be “saved” today by doing the same thing?”
My answer to that would be: because today you can know Jesus (emphasis on can).
About the covenant:
Jeremiah 31:31-32 says:
“Behold the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah - not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.”
Like I said before you are unable to keep all the requirements of the law
(like for example the sacrifices) but Jesus Christ fulfilled the law and through Him and what He has done for us we are made righteous before God (truly pure).
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
God bless, Tina
December 16th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
Ben,
I’ll try to briefly articulate my understanding below. (Again, God knows best)
There are five Biblical covenants. They are all mentioned in the Tanakh and they are all mentioned in the New Testament.
The first is the Noahic Covenant. Biblically this is simply a promise from God that He will never again destroy the earth. In return, he expects mankind to regard human life as sacred, and murder as sacrilege to be punished by execution. Animals could be killed humanely for food. Squirrels are excluded from this if they eat your fruit. Maybe I just made that last part up so as to excuse my repeated offenses. This covenant is non conditional and is still in full force.
Then there was the Abrahamic Covenant. This is central as all others are based on it. It begins God’s redemption of mankind. What marked out Abraham was his trust in God and obedience to Him. God promises to bless him and his descendants, they would be many and God would give them the land (from sea to river etc). Through Abraham all families would be blessed. Those who blessed Abraham’s family would be blessed. (And visa versa). This covenant is filled with God stating “I will”. Its condition was based on only one thing: circumcision (”thou shall”). It is unconditional and is still in full effect.
Then there was the Mosaic covenant at Sinai. This covenant was concerned with the Hebrews occupation of the promised land. It contains an extensive body of legislation concerning how they would live and behave once in the land. In contrast to the previous Abrahamic covenant, this one is filled with “Thou shalls” and even more “thou shall nots” and not many “I wills”. It was also repeatedly punctuated with “we shalls”. In other words, this covenant is filled with many “if yous” “then I wills”. It also contains many specific negative results of disobedience. National and natural disasters, exile, etc etc. My point is that this covenant is condition through and through.
Then there was the David Covenant. Made to one person promising a perpetual dynasty to King David. His immediate successors would rule conditionally, but there was an unconditional promise of one ultimate successor who would be a physical descendant who would rule perpetually.
Then there is the Messianic Covenant. Like the Davidic before it, this one was announced but not achieved during the period that the Tanakh was written. This covenant was described by three separate prophets. First Jeremiah described what would be its unique features. It would be a New Covenant:
It would contrast with the Mosaic in two ways. First, it would be internal. Obligations would be written on hearts rather than on stone.
Secondly, it would be an individual, dealing with each one rather than all corporately.
Essentially, He promised intimacy with Himself, an internal inclination toward righteousness, and an innocence based on an imputed righteousness.
Ezekiel revealed how the covenant would be fulfilled. The human spirit would be renewed and His spirit would be given.
Isaiah revealed who would fulfill the covenant:
He would be the promised Davidic Messiah / King. He would also be the suffering servant who would cleanse His people from their sins with a painful and humiliating death before being raised from the dead.
This final covenant is condition. Unless one repents and accepts the provision of God contained therein, it will do them no good. Also, beyond being limited to Israel, this covenant is international.
So to answer your question, the fact that there is a new covenant implies that it will fulfill another one. This can only be the Mosaic. But rather than say that it nullifies the older one, we believe that it fulfills it. Again, Jeremiah is clear on this: “The time is coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt”
Paul the Apostle articulates it this way to Gentile believers:
I hope that this has brought clarity. Blessings! Joel
December 16th, 2009 at 6:32 pm
Joel says: “Squirrels are excluded from this if they eat your fruit.”
That’s funny. Here where we live snakes are excluded from this if they crawl in your backyard. And sometimes birds when they eat your fruit.
I hope PETA isn’t reading this.
December 17th, 2009 at 3:34 am
Joel wrote “It would contrast with the Mosaic in two ways.”
Of all the other covenants you mention, only the “Messianic Covenant” invalidated the previous ones.
The question is “exactly how could a Jew have been ’saved’ before the coming of Jesus” and “Can a Jew be ’saved’ the same way today?”. If you answer no, then something has replaced the previous covenant/relationship. This is the critical point.
If Jews are told throughout the Torah to keep the Law of Moses, and here comes a new covenant which says not to keep it, that it is no longer valid, how do expect devout, sincere Jews to respond?
Leaving aside the doctrine of Trinity, the main problem Jews have with Christianity does not concerning Jesus, or his claim to be Messiah - the “mutually exclusive” doctrine for them is a new covenant which deviates from the Torah. This is the main obstacle that Pauline Christianity presents preventing a relationship with the Jews, one that Islam does not present.
Best wishes
Ben
Tina wrote “My answer to that would be: because today you can know Jesus (emphasis on can).”
Can the Jew today who is presented a distorted, anti-antinomian, anti-Judaism, Pauline version of the Gospel, really know Jesus? If a Jew rejects Jesus because his parents were killed by Polish Catholics in the holocaust, or his great-grandparents were burned at the stake during the inquisition or killed in a pogrom — will that specific Jew die in sin?
I am not disagreeing with you. And I am certainly not saying that any of the kind people on this forum think this way, but if “the possibility of knowing” is the criterion, then there are legitimate obstacles to proper knowledge.
I am pointing out that by this statement, you are disinheriting (voiding, making null, etc) the covenant of the Jews as practiced before Jesus, and declaring all modern Jews as dying in sin. “the Jewish and the Christian beliefs are mutually exclusive”, and continues to be so.
This is a matter of faith and doctrine, and no matter of discussion should change that. Just be aware of the ramifications of your doctrine.
Am I wrong?
Best wishes
Ben
December 17th, 2009 at 6:28 am
Dear Brother Mr.Joel,
I want to correct your comment, in the verse 5:51 there is a mistake in your translation. You need to examine the arabic version, let me help you…Read the two other translations of this verse, which are conform with the arabic verse:
You who believe! Do not take the Jews and Christians as your friends; they are the friends of one another. Any of you who takes them as friends is one of them. Allah does not guide wrongdoing people. (Surat al-Ma’ida, 51)
The word “friends” appears two times in this verse. One of the Arabic words for friend, “evliyau”, means “protectors, those responsible under the law, guardians, lords, owners, kings.” The other word is “Yatawallahum”. This means “undertaking the care of, acting as a ruler, assuming the management of.” In other words, the word “friend” in this verse appears in the sense of “manager.” Allah tells Muslims not to come under their (Christians and Jews) direction. (Prof. Dr. Bayraktar Bayraklı, Text of the Qur’an)
Yaşar Nuri Öztürk interprets this verse about the people of the Book, which commands Muslims not establish bonds of friendship in the sense of “choosing a manager,” as follows:
“Do not make Jews and Christians your leaders. The Qur’an calls on the people of the Book to be integrated with Muslims around the oneness of Allah and wishes to expand the sphere of believers in Allah. This is an international solidarity and togetherness based on universal values. However, the Qur’an says that the people of the Book are not to be taken as guides.” (The Qur’an in Islam, Yaşar Nuri Öztürk, p. 474)
IMPORTANT:
Allah does NOT FORBID you from BEING GOOD to those who have not fought you in the religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. Allah loves those who are just. (Surat al-Mumtahana,
Those who have faith and those who are JEWS and the sabaeans and the CHRISTIANS, all who have faith in Allah and the Last Day and act rightly will FEEL NO FEAR and will KNOW NO SORROW. (Surat al-Ma’ida, 69)
THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE IS:
http://us1.harunyahya.org/Detail/T/7EZU2FZ0164/productId/12127/MUSLIMS_APPLY_THEIR_OWN_BELIEFS_TO_LIVE_IN_FRIENDSHIP_WITH_THE_PEOPLE_OF_THE_BOOK
December 17th, 2009 at 6:50 am
I think, Adnan Oktar is leader of all muslims…..
December 17th, 2009 at 7:49 am
Ben,
Yes, I do believe that the Messianic Covenant according to the words of Jeremiah fulfills the Mosaic. It needs to be stressed however that “fulfill” is a starkly different thing than “erase”. It does not delete, but rather it empowers and enables one to fulfill the heart of the law.
Again, prior to Yeshua, Jews were “saved” deemed righteous in God’s eyes, by trusting in God, in His provision. Today, when anyone rejects Yeshua, they reject God’s provision. If one rejects Yeshua, they reject the whole Torah, because it is Yeshua that the Torah points to.
This is not replacement theology. Replacement theology replaces a people, the Jews with an entity known as the Church. The Biblical paradigm simply opens the door of the Gentiles into the blessing of the commonwealth of Israel. The irony here is that by the fourth century, and for much of the time since then, so few Jews were part of this unified body. For an analogy, imagine if people from Ireland, Canada, New Zealand and several other members of the British Commonwealth (or whatever it is called) all were filled with people who acknowledged Queen Elizabeth as the Queen of England, but many from England did not believe this. This would be a bizarre irony. Yet it would not mean that England should be kicked out of the commonwealth, not would it mean that the Queen is not the Queen.
So the division that has occurred between the largely Gentile Church and the Jews is in my opinion, the worst example of fracture that is outside of the will of God in world history. But Biblically speaking this will be healed. And slowly but surely, right before my eyes, I have been watching for twenty years the healing and restoration taking place. And it is wondrous! Even as it was in the early Church, Jews and Gentiles lived together as one man, so will it be this way again. Jews fully Jewish, and gentiles worshipping Yahweh together in Yeshua. And yes, the Church will be drastically changed as a result. They will continue to repent of their errors and reactionary anti-Semitic theology and ecclesiology. But I believe that this healing is the number one goal of all who desire Tikkun Olam.
But back to our original issue: How do you understand Jeremiah’s words: What does the modern Orthodox Jew see as Jeremiah’s New covenant?
“The time is coming,” declares the LORD,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them, ”
declares the LORD.
Bless you.
December 17th, 2009 at 8:02 am
creationiste,
If this is what you believe, then would it not be sin for Turkey to join the EU and be under non-Muslim patrons?
Please know that I consider Adnan my friend. I love him and his people. When I was with him at his home, I asked him about this verse. At that time, his answer was that Muslims are not allowed to be friends with fake Christians and Jews. This, he said, is the real meaning of the verse. I then stated that this is not what the verse says, though I am glad that he misreads it so that we can be friends.
Now, regarding your comments that I used a flawed translation. I simply quoted from a very well know Muslim translation. Following are the three most widely received English translation of the Quran: None of them affirms anything other than “friend”:
Beyond that, I also quoted three different Tafsirs directly from Muslim web-sites. None of them take a different approach.
Tafsir al-Jalayln:
Now, as to your claim that it merely means that Muslims should not accept Christians or Jews as “protectors”, I still think that this is wrong. There would nothing wrong with a Jewish or Christian boss if you were a Muslim. If you say that it is okay for a Muslim to be a boss or leader but not the other way around, this is still offensive and demeaning.
So does the Quran forbid Turkey to join the EU and have non-Muslim patrons? I assume that you reject the EU unless it were led only by Muslims?
In conclusion, while I tend to believe that the Quran does forbid Muslims from even being friends with Christian and Jews, I reject the Quran as having come from God, so I am happy when Muslim do not conform to such passages. I enjoy my friendships with Muslims.
Bless you!
December 17th, 2009 at 8:08 am
Joel, what you describe is replacement covenant theology. You equate “rejecting Jesus” with by not trusting in God, denying His provision.
Obviously devout Jews feel they are trusting in God and the provisions of salvation that He has made for them.
What exactly is the nature of the “new covenants” relationship to the “old covenant”? Christianity does not provide a clear unambiguous answer to this point; it is not clarified in any universally accepted doctrinal creed; and yet it directly relates to the “salvation of the Jews”. Here are the possibilities that I have seen:
The old covenant was never valid. All Jews before Jesus died in their sins. Jesus went to hell and released them.
The old covenant was valid. But the new covenant began at a point in time, either birth, death of Jesus or destruction of Temple, and since that time the old covenant was no longer valid.
The new covenant begins when it is preached, once hearing the good news, the old covenant is no longer valid. Old covenant was valid - and continues to be valid - for those who weren’t preached to, and possibly those who didn’t understand or were prevented from understanding.
There is only one covenant, in different forms. This doesn’t require knowledge, but only sincerity and “looking forward (or backward)” to the atonement of Jesus. By this some Jews today can be ’saved’ without specifically acknowledging Jesus.
There is are two co-existing covenants. One for Jews. One for non-Jews. (Dual-covenantism)
There is one eternal covenant made with the Jews, and the non-Jews were grafted on. This prohibits negation of the Mosaic covenant. (A simple reading of the Gospels). Some modify this however by saying the Jews of today are not the same people as the Children of Israel.
There is one eternal covenant made with mankind, and the Jews were given an additional covenant (special mission) to safeguard the Torah for the benefit of all mankind (Noahidism)
Choose your view, and recognize the ramifications it has on your relationship with the Jewish people.
Best wishes
Ben
December 17th, 2009 at 8:23 am
Ben,
I have to run to work. You’ve obviously thought through this. If you have a moment, I am still curious as to your thoguhts here: How do you understand Jeremiah’s words: What does the modern Orthodox Jew see as Jeremiah’s New covenant?
“The time is coming,” declares the LORD,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them, ”
declares the LORD.
December 17th, 2009 at 8:28 am
A renewed covenant.
December 17th, 2009 at 9:36 am
Joel,
Here’s what you wrote:
“Joel Says:
December 14th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
Ehud,
I apologise for not reading your whole post before responding partially. I was on my way out the door. As I am again. I just wanted you to know that in my delay, I was not ignoring you. Blessings, Joel”
So? You’re still on your way out of the door?
You obviously have your reasons. Who am I to judge? Us, cursed Jews, believe that only the ONE G-D can judge His creatures.
Don’t bother to answer me. I think that I can copy and paste your reply by myself. I’ll be happy to engage in a dialogue with Christians who know how to listen to others, not just to their own superior wisdom.
G-d bless,
Ehud
December 17th, 2009 at 9:45 am
Dear Ehud,
I don’t think Joel is doing that.
Best wishes
Ben
December 17th, 2009 at 11:28 am
Shalom Ben,
Not doing what?
Ehud
PS
I like your input, but that’s probably no surprise to you. Thanks.
December 17th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
Ehud,
I understand your frustration. I promised a response and failed to fulfill my word. Beyond that, I will ignore the rest of your comments.
Okay, you said:
I already responded to this above.
Not only is my support of Israel a biblical command, it is simply the right thing to do. No thanks are necessary. It is I who owe you and your brethren thanks for all that your fathers have given to me by among other things, bringing forth the Messiah into the world. Without Jesus /Yeshua, I would surely be in hell at this very moment.
My support for the State of Israel and the Jewish people is unconditional. However if I did not invite you to accept Yeshua this also would be an anti-Semitic act. And for clarity, in no way does this mean that I am inviting you to abandon your Jewish-ness. In Acts 15, the Jewish leaders of the Messianic community recognized that it was not necessary for Gentile believers to convert to Judaism in order to enter into the community, so quickly did the Gentile believers forget this lesson, demanding that Jews who desired to enter into fellowship renounce their Jewish identity and culture. It was a perversion and sin, pure and simple.
I am sure that it is quite maddening for a Gentile to offer his thoughts for the Jewish people. However, again, I cannot repent of reminding you what our prophets have stated. I can repent however if the spirit in which I do this is condescending, arrogant or in a wrong spirit in general. I certainly hope that I have not done this, but if I have, please forgive me.
I want to share with you a personal story that I have only shared with a few people. Perhaps it will shed some light on my personality in general. Years ago, my best friend was being severely abused by his parents. He came to live at my home with my single mother. This became a semi-permanent arrangement lasting for a few years. He was the closest thing to a brother that I ever had. We were both little hooligans. But as we became older, Mike got involved in much harder drugs etc. He became a cocaine and crack addict. Despite being a drug addict myself, I tended to avoid these types of drugs, seeing the changes that they brought to those who did them. As a brother does, I often chastised Mike and gave him a hard time. As a result, Mike often avoided me and our friendship significantly drifted apart. This hurt me very much. At times, I was tempted to just make nice. But every time we got together, I would inevitably get on his case again. To make a long story short, as a result of Mike’s reckless lifestyle, his life came to a violent end at age 20. After his death, I visited with his dad in order to give him some of Mike’s belongings. Mike’s dad told me that only a few weeks before his death, he had told his dad that I was his only real friend, the only one that really cared about him. I was shocked. I would have asumed by the way that he related to me, that he simply did not like me. Since that time, I have recognized the temptation to avoid saying certain things in order to be liked and accepted. No one wants to be rejected. However, I have also come to the conclusion that it is most often the friend that will say the things that anger and even infuriate people. The bottom line is that my faith informs me that at the resurrection, some will awaken to eternal life and others to everlasting shame and regret. So even if you do not respect it, I must offer my opinion when the opportunity arrives. This does not mean that I will force anything on you, but I also think it quite presumptive of you to initiate a conversation here and then demand that I remain silent and withhold my opinions. Its confusing, but also somewhat typical of the prevailing spirit of this age. The message of the world to the Christian is something like this: Just shut up and feed the poor! I understand that the Christian message concerning Yeshua may make others uncomfortable, but I will continue to risk alienating myself from your favor by speaking the truth - in love. But of course, I hope that you are able to get past the mere headache that I might inflict. Because ideally I would love both the ability to speak as well as a friendship.
Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but an enemy gives many deceptive kisses…
I do not see this option of the Messiah appearing in a peaceful manner. This theme is simply too consistently repeated by all of the propehts throughout Scripture. That said, I do indeed deeply respect your Moses like desire to intercede and say, “not so Lord, have mercy.” This is the heart of a true intercessor and I do respect it very much. In no way do I hope to see your “people go up in flames (yet again)”. God forbid! The fact that you suspect that this is my hope or dream is incredibly sad to me. So again, I respect your tenacious spirit to see justice and mercy manifest. But what I disagree with is simply the method.
I would love nothing more than for you to be right. But I just do not see it based on my very prayerful study of this issue. Please know that I do not take these thing lightly.
Absolutely. And I believe that I have articulated the parameters whereby I can support such alliances above. My qualifier is that any such efforts must be honest and realistic. I believe that this is where we have a disagreement. I have a view of Islam that simply does not allow me to make the religious declarations that are made in the meeting reported on in this post. And I believe that my views are both informed and formed by the Bible itself. Rabbi Abrahamson’s research and conclusions, as impressive as they are, I believe are simply rooted in wishful thinking.
I hope that expressing my thoughts do not come across as “pressure”. Hopefully this is a place where everyone can freely share, express and then accept or reject those thoughts.
Bless You Ehud!
December 17th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Dear Mr Joel,
I request you to read what I wrote here, all I wrote..
Firstly,
Mr Adnan do not misread the verse, he comments this verse as I wrote, the article that I sent you is prepared by his ideas…He never said the contrary..I dont know exactly what he said but I never heard him talking against any verse of Coran, I read all his books, just like millions off people..
Secondly,
Mr Oktar do not deny any aspect of his own religion in favor of peace and friendship , he does not reject any of the commandments of Coran.
In an interview Mr Adnan says: “..Allah has given them a name; The People of the Book. All-Mighty Allah in the Qur’an informs us that there will be Jews and Christians. They are not a non-existent community. They are an existent community. They also existed in the time of our Prophet (saas). Consequently within the community of the Turkish-Islamic Community, they will be first-class citizens. Muslims, Jews and Christians, they will all be treated with compassion…”
Muslims, Christians, and Jews have common principles of faith, worship, and moral values and face common dangers. Thus, the People of the Book (Christians and Jews) are called on to unite with Muslims as fellow believers opposed to atheism, anti-religiosity, and social as well as moral degeneration. All Jews, Christians, and Muslims who are sincere, conscientious, tolerant, helpful, conciliatory, reasonable, virtuous, peaceful, and fair to recognize that we believe in the same God and strive to live and extend the reach of God’s morality, should spread this virtue around the world.
We Muslims love and respect Prophets Moses (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh), know that they are loved and dear people in God’s presence, and believe in all His Prophets. Furthermore, we respect Jewish and Christian beliefs, values, and traditions, for God commands us to invite the People of the Book to “unite on a common premise”:
Say: “O People of the Book! Come to a proposition that is the same for us and you-that we should worship none but God, not associate any partners with Him, and not take one another as lords besides God.” If they turn away, say: “Bear witness that we are Muslims.” (Qur’an, 3:64)
Muslims are people who believe in the Qur’an revealed to Prophet Muhammad (may God bless him and grant him peace) as well as in the earlier divinely revealed books: the Pages of Abraham (pbuh), the Torah revealed to Moses (pbuh), the Book of Psalms revealed to David (pbuh), and the Bible revealed to Jesus (pbuh). However, over time these books were tampered with and therefore contain both accurate (e.g., belief in God, virtue, the Day of Judgment, and the rejection of idolatry), and inaccurate information.
Thirdly, about your misunderstanding of the verse..
Real Muslims adopt the friendly attitude required by Qur’anic moral values toward the people of the Book. HOVEWER, Allah has also forbidden relations with the people of the Book IF THEY prevent Muslims living by their own beliefs. For that reason, Muslims do not select individuals from the people of the Book who might manage them, and do not come under their influence and NEVER ACCEPT THEIR RULES ON THE SUBJECT OF RELIGION.
It’s about being the leader of a nation..Would EU prefer a president musulman?? Please read these verses about the good relations between sincere Muslims, Christians and Jews.. Among the people of the Book there are some who have faith in Allah and in what has been sent down to you and what was sent down to them, and who are humble before Allah. They do not sell Allah’s Signs for a paltry price. Such people will have their reward with their Lord. And Allah is swift at reckoning. (Surah Al ‘Imran, 199)
Allah does NOT FORBID you from BEING GOOD to those who have not fought you in the religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. Allah loves those who are just. (Surat al-Mumtahana,
Those who have faith and those who are JEWS and the sabaeans and the CHRISTIANS, all who have faith in Allah and the Last Day and act rightly will FEEL NO FEAR and will KNOW NO SORROW. (Surat al-Ma’ida, 69)
SO HOW WAS IT ABOUT PROPHET MOHAMMED TIME?
from ADNAN OKTAR’S INTERVIEW WITH THE GULF TODAY (UAE)(November 2, 2008)
“..The People of the Book, the People of Israel, lived in complete ease in the time of our Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace). They also lived in Jerusalem at that time, in the region of Israel. They were happy and prosperous and were treated with love and affection. One can marry Jewish girls, sit at their tables, eat food they have prepared, visit their homes and be friends with them. That was the practice in the time of the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) and his Sunnah. And it also applies to Christians. As you know, one of our Prophet’s (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) concubines was a Christian. She is our mother, someone we remember with love and respect. I am not talking about Judaism alone. Christians are also people we must regard as having a right to live in peace and happiness and plenty and abundance and the joy thereof.IN SHORT, Allah commands friendship, love, brotherhood and goodness on Muslims…”
There is an atheist zionist plan to divide, oppress and do away with religious people. The atheist zionists and masons have a plan. This is the plan to eradicate all believers in Allah from over the earth because satan is not only against Islam but also against all believers in Allah. This is the goal of satan.
From another interview of Mr.Oktar:
“..If someone is a genuine Jew and sincerely wants to live by his faith, he is one of the People of the Book. And if one wishes, one can marry these people, marry their women. One can eat with them and have business relations and social relations with them, and live in the same part of town. .”
ADNAN OKTAR’S TEMPO TV LIVE INTERVIEW (March 10, 2009)
ADNAN OKTAR: Our beautiful PROPHET HZ MUHAMMED (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) was very compassionate towards Christians. He would go and eat with them, eat their food. He would also trade with the Jews and encourage his companions to do so. In that era both Christians and Jew lived their lives as they were in Heaven. It was a term of peace and splendor for them.
***AN IMPORTANT NOTE ABOUT THE MISTAKE OF TRINITY***
ADNAN OKTAR’S LIVE INTERVIEW WITH KAÇKAR TV (January 22, 200)
ADNAN OKTAR: One of the common tenets between Muslims and People of the Book before all else is faith in Allah. There is agreement in belief Heaven and Hell and there is agreement in belief in angels and in all prophets. They have faith in all the prophets other than the Prophet Mohammad (may Allah bless him and grant him peace). We also accept all of them, believe all and have faith in all. They also have the lawful and unlawful and most of them are the same. The only difference is that pork and wine are acceptable in Christianity, while pork is unlawful in Judaism and wine is considered to be hideous. For example there is circumcision in Judaism as well and there are many aspects, descriptions and explanations in the Torah, which conform with the Prophet’s (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) guidance such as clothing and manners. These are important in terms of uniformity, but the only problem with Christianity is their doctrine of trinity. Their faith breaks up Allah into three: Allah, the Holy Spirit and the Prophet Jesus (pbuh). This is totally wrong and Allah warns about this in the Qur’an and informs us that there is only One God. Because the Prophet Jesus (pbuh) is Allah’s servant who eats, sleeps and prays, we see this in the Bible as well as the Qur’an. He continually prays to Allah in the Bible; would Allah pray to Allah? He gets hungry, thirsty, he needs to sleep and he does so. Would Allah sleep, could there be an instant when Allah sleeps?
December 17th, 2009 at 5:32 pm
Dear Joel,
I appreciate your honesty and good will. I was moved by the personal story you shared with me and all the readers. I thank you again for hosting me on this page, and even more so - for supporting my country and my people at these bad times.
However, it seems clear that we can never reach any real understanding. Accepting Jesus as anything other than an amazing human being IS a serious violation of my religion, while for you, avoiding the repeated attempts to convince me is a violation of your religion. Alas, it seems that your religious self-definition must include negating my self-definition.
I can live with that and never told you to “shut up”, G-d forbid. The thing that is not legitimate, in my humble view, is that you presume to define other people’s religions. Your insistence that Harun Yahya understands Islam less than you do, and that I can remain a devout Jew after accepting Jesus, are exactly the same as if I were to tell you to remain a good Christian, but just reject your faith in the trinity. There is a certain lack of symmetry between our approaches, where we’re trying to be tolerant and are disappointed when we do not receive the same attitude from you.
But I believe that we have exhausted this issue.
Time to disappear into thin air.
Good bye and may the good Lord pardon us all and bless us despite our mistakes.
Being a Levite, allow me to offer you the ancient blessing:
The Lord bless thee, and keep thee;
The Lord make His face to shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee;
The Lord lift up His countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.
Ehud
December 17th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
Ehud,
Thank you for the Aaronic Blessing! Bless you as well ten-fold! If you do happen to read any further comments, I will make one final response to your parting words:
Again, I strive not to define others religions. As you see above, I simply quoted Muslim interpretations and commentary. Historically respected Muslims that have served a s a standard of faith to a majority of the community for hundreds of years. If Mr. Oktar disagrees with these men then he must address them, not I. As far as claiming that I can remain a devout Christian while denying the Trinity, this is precisely Mr. Oktar’s position. Some of his comments regarding the Trinity may be seen in the post just before yours but even in my personal meeting with him, he repeatedly defined Christianity in terms that no Christians would stand by today. But again, I will be chastised for this and he will not.
Thank you again for your blessing. Shalom shalom!
December 18th, 2009 at 3:55 am
Joel writes: “[Adnan Oktar] repeatedly defined Christianity in terms that no Christians would stand by today”
This is probably true today.
But it wasn’t always the case. There were many Christians who held this non-Trinitarian view (Arianism) from the first to the fourth centuries, and even as late as the Protestant Reformation (for example the “Polish Brethren”). Paul of Samosata, Bishop of Antioch from 260 to 268 CE, introduced this teaching to Palmyra, and when that city was destroyed in 290CE by the Romans, it was introduced to Medina by Palmyrian refugees.
So Adnan Oktar is only presenting a very old, very Christian, very Arab, tradition.
Best wishes
Ben
December 18th, 2009 at 7:04 am
Ben,
First, beyond the Trinity issue, Adnan also expressed that true Christians do not believe that Jesus was crucified. This would be like me telling you that true Jews do not believe in Moses.
Second, yes, the Arian heresy was massive, but it was not orthodox. To mirror your comments back to you: I believe that Judaism was Trinitarian but eventually fell to the unitarian heresy. For me to call Trinitarianism a “very old, very Jewish idea” would still likely offend you, would it not? And certainly, it would be one thing for me to have a discussion with you about this, but another to ignore that you are unitarian altogether.
But with regard to Adnan, interestingly enough, the Quran says that among the Christians, the orthodox would prevail over the heterodox and heretics. So technically, a Muslim, if he is guided by the Quran, would have to acknowledge that the Trinitrians prevailed over the Arians because it was the will of Allah.
December 18th, 2009 at 8:06 am
No offense intended.
Best wishes
Ben
December 18th, 2009 at 9:26 am
None taken.
December 21st, 2009 at 5:50 pm
(Excerpt from Mr. Adnan Oktar’s live interview on Çay TV and Maraş Aksu TV, December 3rd, 2009)
ADNAN OKTAR: How close they [Jews] are very close to Muslims, they say “Say: ‘He is Allah, Absolute Oneness, Allah, the Everlasting Sustainer of all.” And that is really very nice. Surat Al-Ikhlas, that is also how their own belief is. The exact same belief stated in the Surat Al-Ikhlas is applicable for them as well. For example, La ilaha illa Allahu applies to them, too. Only Christianity has a problem with that and that is the problem of belief in the trinity. If they do away with that, insha’Allah, then they will be freed from the scourge of polytheism. Any other way would be associating others with Allah. If they have the trinity, that is associating others with Allah. Because there is only One Allah and that is perfectly clear. Believing in the One Allah is the basis of faith. The Prophet Jesus (pbuh) prays to Allah in the Gospel, doesn’t he? He himself says he is a servant of Allah. Consequently if they put it right, then they will be freed from the scourge of polytheism. But of course Islam is the one true religion in the sight of Allah according to the Qur’an, and that is what we believe in, but for a Christian it is Christianity, of course, and for a Jew it is Judaism, it is Islam for a Muslim. Everyone regards his own religion as the true one. That is perfectly normal. Otherwise they would not be living by that faith. That is why we cannot impose beliefs on one another, we only have to feel respect. Thus there will be mutual respect toward one another, insha’Allah.
December 21st, 2009 at 7:45 pm
That will always be a problem.