A Few Comments Regarding Jack Kelley’s Recent Article
I wanted to add a few of my own brief thoughts regarding Jack Kelley’s article posted below. Although Jack and I may disagree on some finer issues, I was genuinely blessed by the measure of humility that he showed throughout this article. It is articles like this that I so yearn to see more of from popular prophecy teachers. As the last days approach, there can be no room for territorialism and ego. The watchmen have a duty to fulfill as servants to the greater body of Christ. This must be the highest priority of the watchmen, not preserving reputations as the most accurate prognosticators, etc. I believe that Jack ememplifies this spirit well.
Now, regarding the study and understanding of Biblical eschatology, I am convinced of a few things. First, I am convinced that of all of the various arenas of theology, it is eschatology that we must be the most careful not to become overly dogmatic or pharisaical regarding. When one reads the history of the early Church, we see examples of great men of God literally giving their lives for the defense of various essential doctrines. Issues such as the Trinity, the divine incarnation of God in Christ, the dual natures of Christ (fully God / fully man), salvation by grace through faith, the reality of hell as a place of conscious and eternal judgment - these are all issues that we should be willing to defend. This is Christian orthodoxy 101. These things have been believed by the Church down through the centuries and a rejection of these things constitutes a denial of basic Christian doctrine. Its good to be dogmatic about these things. But when one studies the view of the Church down throughout its history regarding the end times, there are ten thousand opinions. There has never been a comprehensive universal agreement within the Church regarding the end times. And as such, we must be gracious towards others who hold differing interpretations (within limits of course). Obviously, I have my opinions, and I have my own pet theories about how things will pan out based on my understanding of Scripture as well as my analysis of world events, combined with my own prophetic imagination etc. Others have their own theories. It is okay to teach the things that we are convinced of with conviction. But let it be clear that in no way am I under any illusion that I know all of the specifics regarding what the future holds. Anyone who claims to know exactly how it will all pan out with certainty quite simply is just full of themselves. If you have sent me an e-mail, please do not wonder if I am talking about you, but let me just say that you would not believe the e-mails that I get from folks who believe they know exactly what the future holds. So again, I believe that humility is one of the keys to understanding the end times. God exalts the humble, but resists the proud. Pride is spiritual blindness, plain and simple. If we seek his wisdom with humility, He will answer with revelation and understanding. And this is the main reason that I am so thankful for Jack Kelley’s article. Good job Mr. Kelley.
Another issue that I want to touch on that Jack spoke about is Ezekiel 38,39 / the Battle of Gog of Magog. As the majority these days do (this has not always been the case), Jack believes that Gog and the Antichrist are two distinct individuals. I believe that Gog and the Antichrist are one and the same. Dave Hunt, Irvin Baxter, Walid Shoebat, virtually every Jewish commentator down through history, John Calvin (and nearly every reformation expositor that followed), and certainly many others agree with my position as well. But it is certainly fair to say that today I am in the minority. For a fuller discussion as to why I believe that Gog and the Antichrist are one and the same, click here and here. One of the things that Mr. Kelley did not address, which I want to point out is that one of the primary reasons that many believe that the Battle of Gog of Magog is not the Antichrist specifically is because the nations mentioned in Ezekiel 38,39 are not European nations. As such, many have assumed this must therefore be an entirely different evil end time world leader, a different end time invasion of Israel, a different supernatural destruction of foreign forces in Israel, etc etc etc.
Secondly, another reason that many hold that Gog and the Antichrist are separate individuals is because they need a mechanism with which to imagine that Islam will essentially disappear in the last days. Let me explain: Because so many are convinced that the nature of the Antichrist religion will be some form of New Age / Universalist / Religious Pluralistic Humanism, (???), they cannot imagine how such a dogmatic, monotheistic, anti-idolatry-based religion could be swept up into any such New Age Universalistic Antichrist religion. Therefore they need to find a way to completely rid the world of Islam in order for their end time theory to work. But if Islam continues on into the final seven years, during the reign of the Antichrist, as Jack Kelley argues (and which I would agree), then it stands to reason that that Muslims would be persecuted by the Antichrist for their refusal to accept his religion. Yet the Bible says that virtually all of the non-believers will worship and submit to the Antichrist and his religious system. You can see the numerous problems that arise.
My point is that once one entertains the possibility that Islam will not only live on into, but even thrive well into the reign of the Antichrist, then it is far more reasonable to consider the idea that Islam could in fact be the primary religious vehicle that will be used by the Antichrist. As such, one may also take a second look at Ezekiel 38,39 and consider some of the arguments that I (and many others) have made for a continuity between Gog and the Antichrist.
Lastly, I want to repost something which I have written recently that conveys my heart regarding the ongoing “East vs. West” debate:
The Parable of the Church and The Watchmen
Jesus told us that as a Church, we are “a city on a hill”. His purpose was to show that as a people, we should let our presence be known throughout the earth. Our light should shine forth and beckon all to come and join our community and the safety that such a city provides. Imagine an ancient walled city magnificently perched high upon a hill with steep rocky cliffs on all sides. In this city, every member has an important part to play in the well-being of the city for the common good. Some are called by the King to be watchmen on the walls. The job of the watchmen is to stand on the walls, day or night, to attentively and soberly watch for any approaching signs of danger. When such danger arises, perhaps an invading army is seen marching over the horizon, the job of the watchmen is to sound the alarm, to blow the trumpet, to awaken the people of the city, to call for proper preparation.
When I look at the situation in the Church today, I see a cause for deep concern. As I look upon the walls, I see a large hoard of watchmen standing together on the Western wall looking toward Europe. This is partially good. We need watchers on the Western wall. But it also deeply concerning because there is also a vast Eastern wall that has gone virtually unprotected for many, many years now. Yes, there have been a few lone watchmen who have manned the Eastern walls, but only a few. Now, this has not always been the case. Down throughout the history of the Church, many very great and notable leaders and men of God have called the Church to watch for the coming of the Antichrist and his armies from the Eastern front. But over the past thirty years or so, it seems as though there has become a cementing of opinion that the only wall that really matters is the Western wall. This is very dangerous.
Today, a quickly growing base of believers, scholars, pastors, leaders and students, after considering the Biblical evidence, feel that the Eastern wall is absolutely critical. In fact, the movement is growing so quickly that it is fair to call it an eschatological revolution. And while teachers like myself who are leading the way in this revolution are confident in our emphasis on the Middle East as the primary source of the coming Antichrist, his kingdom and his religion, we are not saying that all of the watchmen need to move to the Eastern wall.
My desire is to see a balance brought into to the ranks of the watchmen and the perspective of the Church. This is just plain old common sense; we need to spread out. We need to rotate some men to the Eastern wall, but we should also continue to carefully monitor the Western front as well. There has been an imbalance for too long and the Church is in danger as a result.
October 12th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
As for me I believe that an even greater error than looking west for the Antichrist is looking for a rapture that isn’t going to happen. As times get more and more tougher people are going to start asking ‘where is the promise of his coming’ (IIPeter3:4) possibly helping out a great falling away and definitely discrediting Christianity in the eyes of the world while mohammedanism gains power simultaneously. I think the non-existant ‘pre-trib’ rapture dwarfs everything as relates to eschatology.
October 12th, 2009 at 7:45 pm
I agree Chris some of these things will be revealed in time. The sad thing is that many will question why they are here to see them ( not raptured ) and possibly question what faith they had if any. Soon we will see who the true church is.
October 12th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
I have done some investigating on the time lines in Daniel, and these time lines in them selves point to things ending up in the Islamic Middle East and not Europe although the future Europe might become Islamic faster than any one thinks. From the time lines ahead it has just come to me that Daniels time lines fall in line with events that have taken place in these last days all pointing from Babylon to todays Daughter of Babyon as Jerimiah calls her Iraq.
When God created the world he put into creation perfect math and perfect science. He included Pi and he also included the constant number 2520. It is found in the degrees of the earth and creation week and the Sabbath rests. One revolution of the earth is 360 degrees times seven days equals 2520 degrees. The 70 years of Babylonian captivity was 25200 days, 7000 years of creation including the 1000 year Sabbath will be 2,520,000 days. From the book Temple At the Center of Time by Flynn - Temple Mount to Lateran Obelisk in Rome which is the head of the Catholic Church as per the measuring line on Google Earth is also 2,520,000 yards also as per NASA.
606 BC Nebuchadnezzar took Northern Israel captive. In 1878 a Jew by the name of Yehoshua Stampfer walked all the way from Hungry to Israel and set up one of the first settlements called Petah Tikva nick named Mother of all Settlements. From 606 BC to 1878 is 2520 biblical years.
587 BC Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem, From 587 BC to the First Zionist Congress the seeds and goals of rebuilding Israel in 1897 is 2520 biblical years.
564 BC Nebuchadnezzar was freed or unbound from his insanity when he ate grass like an animal for 7 years or 2520 days. On Nov 11 1920 Sykes-Picot Agreement Iraq (Babylon) was reborn or recreated and became a League of Nations mandate under British control, the daughter of Babylon was reborn again after 2520 biblical years.
539 BC Was the year the Babylon ceased being an empire. This was when the writing on the wall took place. The writing on the wall totaled 126 shekels which is the same as 2520 gerahs. The Jew was finally freed from Babylonian captivity by Darius who defeated Babylon In 1945 Germany surrendered and the Jews were again freed from the slavery of the Holocaust. Never again to be enslaved this also was 2520 biblical years.
538 BC After 70 years of captivity Cyrus makes a decree to allow the Jews to return to Jerusalem and rebuild their Temple. From this decree by Cyrus to the decree (Resolution 181) by the UN in 1947 was 2520 biblical years.
536 BC The Babylonian captivity ended in 536 BC. Israel was reborn as a nation in 1948 if we add 536 BC to this we again end up with 2520 biblical years.
515 BC After Cyrus let the Jews go back to Jerusalem Ezra dedicated the second temple on Passover. Taking out zero year which there is no zero year until when Temple Mount was recaptured in the June 6 day war in 1967 is also 2520 biblical years.
473 BC Haman tried to have all the Jews killed in the Media Persia Empire by having the King issue a decree unto that effect. He had a gallows built to hang Mordecai the Jew on who he hated. But God saved the Jews through Queen Esther who herself was a Jew. This a thought only, from the very first feast of Purim in 474 BC and adding 2520 biblical years brings us too the year 2010 or 2011. Is this the year that Magog and Persia will be destroyed as per Eze 38?
An interesting thought about the holiday of Purim is that it takes place in the spring of the year. In fact it typically takes place during the South to North migration of birds from Africa to Europe and Russia. During this migration there are literaly millions of flesh eating eagle, raptors, and other birds of prey.
Each year hundreds of millions of birds cross over Israel, migrating between their breeding grounds in Europe and Asia and their wintering quarters in the heart of Africa. In the spring the salt flats north of Eilat are humming with life. Tens of thousands of bird’s stop off to eat en route to Europe and Asia. Estimates are anywhere between 500 million to 1.5 billion birds fly north in spring from Africa to Europe and Asia, this figure represents 200 different species, this includes 34 types of BIRDS OF PREY.
Some birds, which regularly migrate over Eilat, are the booted eagle, raptor, rare Russian steppe eagle, lesser spotted eagle, snake eagle, imperial eagle, marsh harrier, osprey, black kite and honey buzzard, as well as large numbers of pelicans and storks. Between one and two million raptors migrate through Eilat, Israel each spring. They arrive via south Sinai, Egypt, largely on a South West to North East course indicating that they have left Africa by crossing the Gulf of Suez, Egypt, at its southern end.
October 12th, 2009 at 7:56 pm
willard….my mouth is hanging open. wow.
October 12th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
To Chris and Duke:
First of all Chris, the quote you posted from 2 Peter. Peter is not talking about believers who were expecting a rapture and suddenly noticed they are in the tribulation. It is scoffers walking in there own lust, people who are loving the world and not worrying about anything but their own lives.
Duke, are you saying that someone who is “pre-trib” isn’t part of the true church??? If you are that is the silliest thing I’ve heard! So great men of faith like Dr. John MacArthur, Dr. Charles Stanley, Dr. David Jeremiah, and so many others, are going to fall away from their faith because they weren’t raptured??? I think my faith is pretty darn strong and I believe in a pre trib rapture. But you know what, if it doesn’t happen, I will be right next to you fighting for Jesus Christ.
Let’s not judge the faith of fellow brothers and sisters because of pre or post trib. Didn’t Joel just mention something like that in this article? Let’s come together on the main issues of Jesus Christ and fight the good fight! Remember to humble ourselves before our Lord and fellow believers, we don’t how exactly it will all turn out, only God does.
God Bless you all!!
October 12th, 2009 at 9:27 pm
Joel,
I want to recognize you for your humility and grace. The above comments clearly show that the church is not in unison on all issues - I personally believe that provides us an opportunity for healthy debates and discussions to further our understanding of the scriptures. You provide an excellent example of seeking truth and offering interpretation while openly acknowledging that none of us know for sure what will happen. The way you acknowledge and affirm the opinions of others is commendable.
Thank you.
October 12th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
What I quoted is in perfect context with what I said. It is speaking of the last times and just because you see it differently doesn’t make your take any better than mine. It is exactly in the context of what I said. When the rapture fails to occur as advertised, you will hear probably exact quotes of that verse from the mouths of scoffers…..When did anybody say that they thought believing in the destructive doctrine of pre-trib rapture meant someone wasn’t a Christian. You’re reading into our comments allota stuff that wasn’t even hinted at.
October 13th, 2009 at 12:05 am
In my experience, the people inside the city walls don’t even have a clue what is going on outside of them. They even say “la la la la la” with their fingers in their ears or look at you like you were from outer space, when you try to talk of these things and warn them of what is about to come on them. They hear the rattling spears outside the city gate but would rather concentrate on ecclesiastical minutia in the inner rooms.
October 13th, 2009 at 12:21 am
When one is not even willing to consider another point of view, like some have pointed out, they have stopped looking for truth and have settled for dogma.
I disagree with many of Joel’s argument, but i agree with his conclusion. At least on that point, there is commonality, therefore, I can accept where he is coming from and learn from the articles he post.
If I decided to ignore him, because, I disagree with his arguments, I would be the one missing out. His articles have been very informative and they point to events that I have concluded must happen, or at least in possibility.
Sean Osborn, is a man of dogma, he posses no truth, because he has closed his mind to it, and has instead, attacks anyone who disagrees with him. That is a man who has nothing to hold on to, he sees the world shifting from his point of view, so he attacks those who point that out. Instead of changing with it, he fights it and ignores it.
Knowledge and Truth must be solidified, but not at the cost of knowing Knowledge and Truth.
October 13th, 2009 at 5:03 am
Dear brothers and sisters,
Perhaps you need to know what the church is. Study ecclesiology. Then look at revelations you will notice the church is represented by the seven lamps where are the lamps when the scroll is opened? think. Think. Read and understand the scripture. yes there is promised one church group will go through the tribulation. understand which one.
In christ we live.
October 13th, 2009 at 5:06 am
And Yes the end of all things is apon us and indeed all the world. Now we need more than ever to put aside our foolish arguments and preach the Gospel not some other doctrine. stop working with darkness against ourselves.
October 13th, 2009 at 5:11 am
Regarding the Islam faith being merged with others it is already happening. The interfaith dialogs taking place is affecting many churches in my country. it has even become acceptable to some.
There is only one way to the Father and that is Jesus.
October 13th, 2009 at 7:23 am
There is no authoritative theological scholarship here on earth, thus there are the vast array of human opinion regarding the prophecy of the end times.
The great prophecy debate will be settled upon His return, not before, simply because its against the grain of human nature to own up to the possibility that their opinion is flawed.
For your information, the year 2011 COULD be significant! Why? Because the sacred calendar for the year 2011 matches up exactly to the sacred calendar of the First Passover of Israel while the nation was in Egypt. IF the Second Passover Liberation of Israel {the church} should occur in 2011, and IF a vast quantity of deaths occur starting with the first Four Seal judgments, then the great prophecy debate will have been resolved.
Because Satan has so thoroughly deceived Christianity, Christianity as a whole believes they can go on sinning as they do, not believeing or listening to God and still think they will be raptured from the soon to come Tribulation. If you think you will be raptured I will never be able to convince you otherwise, it will take an act of God, i.e., the Second Passover.
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, Theos and Theon and their respective Breaths.
October 13th, 2009 at 9:16 am
My thoughts - (in humility of course) - the reason the church is so divided about the rapture is that there are scriptures that support multiple views of when “it” will occur. I am coming to believe that there will actually be multiple raptures, beginning with a pre-trib rapture of the dead in Christ and the current true-believing church. Then, just as there are multiple agricultural harvests in Israel, and jewish feasts associated with them, there will be successive waves of “rapture-harvests” until the fall feasts are completely fulfilled by Christ’s return and reign.
The time is short.
October 13th, 2009 at 11:24 am
I find it interesting that Islam is just assumed to be related to predictive prophecy which has much more to do with western prejudice (and current political conflicts) than any logical ties to the biblical narrative. The assumption goes something like this: biblical prophecy relates to Middle Eastern lands. Islam is the predominant faith in Middle Eastern lands. We believe Islam to be a negative force in the world. Therefore anything prophetically negative must relate to Islam.
What this ignores is the fact that: A) Islam is a world wide phenomenon, the largest concentrated group of Muslims being found in Indonesia and India B) Islam, like Christianity, is by no means a monolithic entity. Your kind of prophetic interpretation demands, however, that it be monolithic as you speak about it as though those who are Muslim represent some vast anti-Christian conspiracy. Having lived and ministered in the Muslim world for many years I can tell you this is a distortion of reality, as much a distortion of reality as the anti- Semitic tropes that drove the German church to allow Hitler to express his fury on Jews he saw as threatening “pure” Christian Aryan culture. We’re talking prejudice here, pure prejudice.
Wouldn’t it be better to spend less time trying to work out your speculative theories than answering the call to be loving witnesses to our Muslim neighbors? That’s what we do know - when Christ comes again the first thing he is going to ask us is: “are you loving your neighbors as you love yourself? What have you done to let your neighbors know how much I love them?
October 13th, 2009 at 11:52 am
Very interesting post, Willard! How about the fall of Babylon in 539BC, 2520 years later 1981, maybe a couple of years off, but in 1979 Islamic Revolution.
October 13th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Only the Father knows the time and the details of what is to come. We grow and gain knowledge through studying the Word and our Fellowship with others both believers and non-believers alike. It would be wrong of us to discount peoples opinions on topics that there is no clear scripture to support in either way. However, I do think there is sufficient evidence that a pre-trib rapture of the sorts being taught here in the West is unlikely. A teacher whom I have great respect for once told me that he is neither Pre-trib nor Post-Trib but he is Pro-Rapture and he is going to be ready whenever he is called to be with the Lord.
I think we all have much to gain from each other and it is the different points of view that make us take a closer look into the scripture which ultimately brings us closer to G-d. Humility is the greatest quality and discernment must be exercised at all turns. I have yet to find a teacher with whom I agree on every point. Even further I have come to challenge some of my own perceptions.
Rather than divide we should try to come together and make each other stronger. It is still okay to try to convince others of our postions, it is through discussion and debate that the truth often prevails.
October 13th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Javie - the Time Lines I quoted are 2520 prophetic or biblical years or 2484 solar years - this would put us at 503 and 505 BC I cannot point to anything specific event wise for those years in the Jewish time line?? Joel what do you think of these time lines from Daniel - do they make sense
October 13th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
I’m sorry to offend anyone, but the pre-trib rapture doctrine will be shown to be the most destructive modern false teaching in my opinion. It behooves me to try to bring attention to this lie or at the very least place a seed of doubt about it in the minds of as many people as possible in order to lessen the damage done as it is slowly discredited as it most surely will be. I may seem divisive to some, but In reality the truth overrides division if need be. I see the widespread acceptance and teaching of a false doctrine like this as destructive and it needs to at least be discussed openly without the threat of dismissal. I call it doctrine because it has in my opinion become so unquestioned among current Church leadership that the word ‘teaching’ doesn’t seem to describe it’s centralness to current eschatological Christian thought. I understand that the term doctrine may be a stretch.
October 13th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
Chris,
One of my disagreements with the post-trib rapture teaching is that it means that Jesus cannot return until a whole myriad of events occur. I believe, and I think the Bible teaches, that Jesus’ return could occur at any moment. I’m not looking for the revealing of the Antichrist-I’m looking for Jesus Christ.
Does that mean that I don’t expect to face any persecution? No. I believe Jesus was telling that truth when He said that all believers should expect persecution.
As long as I’m living on this planet I expect to be in constant war against the devil and his kingdom. So if the antichrist and false prophet appear in the near future and the Tribulation events begin to unfold and I’m still here, then I will fight just as hard (probably harder). Will I be disappointed that I wasn’t raptured? You bet. Just like I’m disappointed when someone isn’t healed whom I prayed for or when I see so many Christian friends going through so many struggles. But that doesn’t mean that I will lose my faith and trust in God. It just means I don’t fully understand all His ways. Nobody is perfect except for the Lord, and even the greatest theologians in the history of the world (even the Church fathers I might hasten to add) weren’t correct about everything.
I agree with a previous post. We need to be more concerned about spreading the Gospel and not so concerned about spreading our opinions about when the rapture might or might not occur. Is eschatology important? Absolutely. Otherwise why does the Bible have so much to say about it? But Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy, which I take to mean that all prophetic events are ultimately all about Him.
I love Chuck Missler’s often repeated statement, “The only certain barrier to truth is the presumption that we already have it.”
Humbly In Christ.
October 13th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
@Willard….
I enjoyed your commentary on the bird migration and it maybe no coincidence that at the Battle of Armaggeddon when AC’s muslim army is defeated by the LORD it will be during the time of one of the birds of prey migrations thru Israel…it would fulfill prophectic Scripture to a tee, would it not?
October 13th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
I believe, and I think the Bible teaches, that Jesus’ return could occur at any moment……………Read II Thessalonians Chapter 2. Especially verse 3…There is no way we will be gathered together with Christ until the falling away and the man of sin is revealed (my paraphrase). Paul even stresses to not be deceived.
October 13th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
To JackC: Yes indeed you may be ready for persecution and I have no reason to doubt you, but what about all those sheep who hardly even open a Bible? How will they react?
October 13th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
Brandon,
I don’t have much time but wanted to mention that I in no way meant to imply that you are unsaved if you hold to a pre-trib theology. However if these things take place and people fail to recognize the events that is a problem if they then fall away they are not saved. Sorry if that was unclear or if I in some way offended.
Thank you Chris for explaining more.
October 13th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
isaiah 26
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the LORD comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain.
October 13th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Once again You do not understand who the church is
October 13th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
First, I have not reached a decision, even after many years, on the timing of the rapture. The question that I have for the group concerns the customs in Jesus’ day concerning the Jewish wedding feast because I think that this is a primary guide to the return of Christ. The question is, ‘when the groom went to get his bride and take her to the place he had prepared, did they stay to themselves for seven days?’ If this was the custom, then a pre-trib rapture would be indicated. If, instead the bride and groom immediately went to join the wedding guests then a pre-trib position would be much more diffucult to accept.
Chris:
The falling away has been occuring but will surely accelerate. When the ‘man of sin’ signs the seven year agreement with Israel - those who have been watching will recognize him (revealed pre-trib). When he breaks the agreement (treaty?) at the mid point then his true nature should be more apparent (more revealed mid-trib) to a larger number. When he is confronted in battle and defeated by Christ then there will not be any doubt concerning who he is (fully revealed post-trib). This is just not an easy call.
I just can see this question being successfully argued in different ways. I also realize that we as Christians are to be exculded from some level of wrath, but as the wrath intesifies throughout the tribulation period, then it is also a debatable point as to which portion of wrath we are excluded.
Pray for pre - plan for post.
October 13th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Jack Kelley referred to Isaiah 28:15 and the covenant with death:
You boast, “We have entered into a covenant with death,
with the grave we have made an agreement.
When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by,
it cannot touch us,
for we have made a lie our refuge
and falsehood our hiding place.”
To be honest, this is the first time I’ve stopped to read this. It would seam to give the impression that (in today’s world/circumstances and, as Joel says it “prophetic imagination”) a revived Ottoman Empire could set out to “conquer” other muslim nations in the middle east. If this were the case, the verse above would coincide with Isaiah 19, and the end of Daniel 11. I could imagine that Turkey’s thirst for a revised Ottoman Empire would drive them to force (not always with military power, but possible) other middle eastern countries into an empire led by Turkey.
On another note, the book of Joel describes the day of the Lord:
Let the priests, who minister before the LORD,
weep between the temple porch and the altar.
Let them say, “Spare your people, O LORD.
Do not make your inheritance an object of scorn,
a byword among the nations.
Why should they say among the peoples,
‘Where is their God?’
Most commentators will say that this is the Gog/Magog war. It always interested me that they will never recognize that the Temple will be built at this time.
Keep sounding the trumpet Joel.
Also Chris, I understand where your coming from. I will not say that the rapture is pre without a doubt, but I will say that Christ used the analogy of the Jewish wedding. Interestingly enough, when the bridegroom comes for the bride, he takes her back to His Fathers house. After the physical union the bride stays in the bridal chamber (huppah) for seven days. After the seven days the bridegroom will then present the bride to the guest unveiled, then the wedding feast starts. This holds allot of water in the prophetic field. Granted Christ did not tell us this directly, but He did connect Himself and the Church to the beginning of this ceremony. You could say I’m reading between the lines. When looking at the end of Revelation 19, when Christ presents his bride and the wedding feast begins, its hard to not apply this to us the Church and Christ our Bridegroom. Either way we are in Christ and He is in us, and we will be with Him forever. I CAN’T WAITE!!!!
October 13th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
So you’re equating that prophecy from Isaiah which is unclear about what it’s speaking about to the clear teaching of Paul in II Thess.? The prophecy in Isaiah could be speaking about the deliverance from final judgement of the Antichrist’s kingdom. IIThess is SPECIFIC.
October 13th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
Actually I really don’t see how IIThess. could be more specific or clearer
October 13th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
We are citizens of heaven not earth dwellers right?
The revelations after the scroll is opened is to the earth dwellers
And what kind of groom would christ be if he beats up his bride?
October 13th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
When Christ comes ‘all eyes will be upon Him’ key word is all IMO. When Christ comes the ‘dead in Christ will rise’ resurrection. If they tell you He’s in the desert or wherever don’t believe it because as lightning streaks across the sky…there will be no doubt about The Second Advent. Furthermore we are warned by Christ himself about ’secret’ advents…..Why is it so hard to admit the clarity of Paul in IIThess., I just don’t get it.
October 13th, 2009 at 6:03 pm
I do have a question and wonder if somebody here has an answer to this.
I do believe Pastor Mark Biltz from El Shaddai Ministries has a valid point about the jewish festivals that Christ already fullfilled the four spring festivals right on the day of the festival, and that he will probably fullfill the fall festivals equally right on those days.
So could it be that the church is raptured on the feast of trumpets (1st day of the 7th month) and that Christ then returns for judgement on the day of atonement (10th day of the 7th month) and the Millenium starts on the feast of tabernacles (15th day of the 7th month), so that there would be ten days between the rapture and Christ’s return to judge the world?
Then the rapture of course couldn’t be pre-trip (unless there would be 7 years between those feasts) but would still be not on exactly the same day than the return in judgement.
October 13th, 2009 at 7:55 pm
I am intrigued by Mark Biltz’s research myself. Biltz believes that Christ’s feet will land on the Mount of Olives on Yom Kippur.
I am no longer 100% convinced of a 7 year tribulation — this is based upon only one interpretation of one verse in Daniel 9. We do read, however, of great tribulation which lasts for only 3.5 years (1260 days; 42 months; a time, times and the dividing of time), so I am open to those who have a differing view in this regard and suggest the the tribulation is just 3.5 years long, and is cut short with the return of Christ. Now, IF Biltz is correct — and I have no way of refuting his research yet — and if 2015 is as significant as he believes it to be, then keep close watch on the spring of 2012 for the Abomination of Desolation.
October 13th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Chris,
I totally support your position re: the Pre/Mid Rapture, it is a complete set up that will have many Christians FALLING AWAY FROM THE FAITH. The unfortunate part is that so many Christians buy into this LIE that it is difficult to tell them otherwise because their mindset is that the majority of Bible believing ministers can’t all be wrong. Little do believers remember that the majority of prophets in O.T. times who supposedly came in the the name of the LORD were FALSE PROPHETS and God’s TRUE PROPHETS were usually belittled, demeaned, and often times killed for Speaking the Truth of God’s Word. Today is no different as Christendom demands pastors, etc that will TELL THE PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT TO HEAR. The Bible makes it PLAIN that Christ will return at “THE LAST TRUMP”. Pre-Tribers don’t get it because they have ITCHING EARS and clearly fail to study the Word of God for themselves but look to others to explain the Word of God to them versus trusting in the Holy Spirit of the Living God to reveal the truth to them by His Spirit and by His Word. Christ CANNOT RETURN TO THE EARTH IN ANY CAPACITY “UNTIL THE LAST TRUMP HAS SOUNDED”. For those of you who don’t understand what is PLAINLY stated in the Holy Scriptures simply means you have to study the Word of God more closely. The return of Christ is ALL RELATED TO THIS TIMELINE.
October 13th, 2009 at 8:05 pm
Chris,
In 2 Thessalonians, the Apostle Paul is attempting to relieve the fears of the Thessalonian Christians who thought they had missed the rapture (See 2 Thess. 2:2). Someone (a post-tribber I guess…just kidding!) had apparently told them (through a letter or in person) that the persecution they were suffering was because they were currently in the Tribulation period (the day of Christ). Paul was reminding them (because he had told them previously–See 2 Thess. 2:5)) that before the Tribulation begins, two things will occur: (1) the falling away and (2) the revealing of the Antichrist. Since neither of the those things had yet happened, they shouldn’t stress out thinking they were in the Tribulation. This makes the point that believers will face persecution and suffering in this life. But don’t confuse this present suffering with the wrath of God that will be poured out in the Tribulation.
In Paul’s first letter to the Thessalonians, he explicitly told them to serve “the living and true God” while they “wait for His Son from heaven, Whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus Who delivers us from the wrath to come.” (1 Thess. 1:10) While we await the rapture of the Church (pre, mid, or post-trib), our mission as disciples of Jesus is to faithfully serve God. But I believe that God will deliver the Church from (not through) the wrath to come, just as Paul wrote.
As far as all those sheep who never bother to study their Bibles, I would only say that the hope of all believers, no matter how mature in Christ they are, rests on Jesus Christ and His righteousness, not how much of the Bible they know. When I accepted Christ, I knew nothing about Biblical doctrine. I would also say that most Christians today have no idea what pre,mid, or post-trib even means. But, if they are saved, then they know Jesus Christ, and I believe that His grace and mercy are powerful enough to overcome a poor understanding of end-time events.
I would also agree that there is a widespread deficiency of biblical knowledge all across Christendom. It does at times seem that the Church is a mile wide and an inch deep. But that has been the state of affairs of the Church from the beginning. Just look at how often the writers of the New Testament had to address wrong teaching and behavior within the Church. And until Christ returns, the discipleship process will continue. I just hope that the rapture happens before the Tribulation and not after.
October 13th, 2009 at 8:22 pm
It doesn’t say before the tribulation. Please read with an open mind. It is talking specifically about the rapture/second coming. What’s so obscure here? It’s very clear and in context….Just for your information I also strongly believed in the pre-trib roman Antichrist and all the mainstream belief until I started reading for myself. I actually came to the eastern Antichrist conclusion in part (mostly) because of the book ‘Antichrist- Islams awaited messiah’ which also brought me to this site….Anyway if I have brought doubt about the false pre-trib rapture into at least one persons mind here…well glory to God!
October 13th, 2009 at 8:34 pm
Chris, we will just have to agree to disagree. But when we’re both raptured before the Tribulation, you will be glad you were wrong.
October 13th, 2009 at 8:35 pm
Thanks Christopher, it’s just so outrageously plain, isn’t it? To Mitchell:I’m with you on the doubtfulness of the seven year span. Listen to my take; there is 7 years left to bring in ‘everlasting righteousness’ 31/2 now and 31/2 after the Millennium….Everybody laughs at and ignores me for that, but how is there ‘everlasting’ righteousness before the Millennium when the final end all battle doesn’t occur until after the Millennium?….I disagree on the Abomination of Desolation, I believe it’s just before the Second Advent.
October 13th, 2009 at 8:47 pm
Tina,
I have had the same thought process as you on this. I thought it was so cool to learn about God’s appointed feasts and the teaching of Jesus already fullfilling the first 4 in the spring during his first coming. It would then make perfect sense that the remaining 3 feasts would also mark God’s calendar for what has yet to be fullfilled when Jesus returns for the 2nd coming. When people repeat the verse about no one but the Father knows the day when believers will be caught up to meet him in the air, it seems it’s left out how Jesus says we’ll know the season, however. I used to think “season” referenced the many signs of the end days that we would see occur. When I learned about Rosh Hashanna - the Feast of Trumpets - and that it was the only feast where the day was not certain because it was based on the sighting of the moon. There was a “season”, a time to keep on watch for the moon and then once it was sighted, the feast began the next day at sundown, I believe…
Then, learning about the Jewish wedding ceremony during the time of Jesus’ first coming and how the bridegroom would call for his bride at midnight, we may even have been given a clue on the hour when He used this reference? Of course, that would most likely be based on midnight in Jerusalem. As Micah stated, the bride is hidden away for 7 days. Now, I would love to see a connection to a pre-trib rapture and being hidden away for 7 years during the tribulation period. For me and my family, I would prefer to be evacuated into the ark of Christ and not be swept away into the tribulation period.
With that said, if that is not God’s plan, then so be it. I am not a survival type gal, but I pray I would endure and be a good ambassador for Christ if He intends for me to perserve through it. If the last 3 fall Feasts appointed by God does not include a 7 year gap between 5 and then 6 & 7, then perhaps it will occur sequentially like you, Tina, described above, all in one magnificent and amazing fall at the end of the great tribulation.
Since learning about God’s feasts, I did prepare last year and this year on Rosh Hashanna, just in case, watching and anticipating, but they, of course, were still “dress rehearsals”
I can see the point being made that if the rapture does not happen pre-trib, that who were hoping for it may become disheartened because it didn’t occur the way they thought it would and now they have to go through many hardships, difficulties, persecution, etc… I agree that true believers, those of us in relationship with Christ, will NOT stop clinging to him, especially if it plays out like that, because this would indeed be the best time to cling to our God and not let go no matter what! But, lukewarm or for all appearance type “christians” well, maybe they would fall away from being disappointed??
Another idea in regards to the “falling away” that I’ve read about might be a scenario where the fallen angels posing as extra terrestrials (I know, stick with me here) show up in full disclosure and deceive people by claiming they created us and all the religions of the world deneying the death and resurrection of Christ and whatever despicable lies Satan would want to spew. What would seeing crafts hovering and ET’s showing false holograms or something like that do to people’s faith? Didn’t the Vatican recently state that ET’s from other planets are our brothers? What’s up with that? The UK and a few other countries have recently decided to disclose all of their information on UFO sightings, etc… And, has anyone noticed all of the movies recently about UFO’s, aliens, even in the kid venues - propoganda to prepare us?
It’s been said that the only way for abductees to stop these evil creatures from kidnapping them is to rebuke them in the name of Jesus Christ and they flee! Sounds like demons to me. But, I guess those in the UFO world persecute this line of thinking and don’t want to consider anything but that these ET’s, if they exist, are superior to us and benevolent - yikes!
Bizarro World if something like that plays a part, I know, so I hope that me just putting a scenario like this out there that I don’t loose my credability or anyone thinks I’m nuts - I get enought of that for just being a Christian who enjoys prophecy
I’ve personally never seen a UFO or been abducted, but I do find it difficult to believe that those who claim these things are all crazy!
BTW - Willard, thank you for doing the research on the 2520 scenarios - I just love the fact that God is so perfect! The bird mirgration info was very interesting, as well.
October 13th, 2009 at 8:48 pm
For anyone interested, here are reasons why I left pre-tribism and now believe in a post-trib rapture:
http://www.prophecynet.com/showthread.php?t=26343
http://www.prophecynet.com/showthread.php?t=26458
I’ve posted under the name “ScriptureResearcher”.
October 13th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
Jack and Chris,
It’s a pleasure to dialogue with each other regarding prophetic events and endtime prophecy. We’re truly living in exciting times for our Glorious Lord and Saviour to give us this opportunity to see prophecy unfold right before our eyes; just like Saints of old were PRESENT TO WITNESS THE PROPHECIES THAT UNFOLDED IN THEIR TIME. God has NO INTENTION of removing His Blood bought, Blood purchased Saints to MISS OUT ON THE GREATEST PROPHETIC EVENTS OF ALL TIME! JackC be prepared to witness for the Majesty of Christ with the greatest gift you or I can offer to the Father OUR LIVES.
From a human perspective JackC I would love for you to be right, but the spiritual man of whom we are comprised of first says from a historical and biblical world view God gets the GREATEST GLORY WHEN HIS PEOPLE ARE PUT TO THE TEST BY SATAN and by His Grace come through with flying colours. God’s glory is denied and are witness is vain if The Church does not go THROUGH THE GREAT TRIBULATION THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN WITH THE CHURCH SINCE THEIR EVER WAS A CHURCH. The System of the Beast is specifically set in place to TEST THE SAINTS OF GOD and does NOT apply to the unbelieving world seeing that they will agree with the System of the Beast. In any case, that time will be shortly upon us. WE ALL NEED TO BUCKLE UP AND BE FERVENT FOR CHRIST, because Satan the Devil is preparing an assault on the Jews and Christians that has never been since mankind was upon the face of the earth. If we are faithful UNTIL THE VERY END WE WILL ALL RECEIVE A CROWN OF LIFE THAT THE LORD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE THAT LOVE HIS APPEARING. Let us NOT fear what man can do to our flesh, although the thought is repugnant to our very flesh and its desire for self preservation.
FOR HIS GLORY!!
October 13th, 2009 at 9:20 pm
Hey Mitchell I quickly scanned through your links and here’s one I think you’ll appreciate: Romans 11:15 Links the salvation of the Jews (The Second Advent) with the first resurrection. Beautiful isn’t it?
October 13th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Hasn’t anyone here considered or performed a serious study of the
Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church ?
Sure would solve most of the arguments pre vs. post trib.
October 13th, 2009 at 9:39 pm
MEmissionary,
Just got home and read through this thread, and saw your post. Thanks for your service in a difficult field. I have a couple of friends that share this honor with you in the ME. Having done some limited mission work there in support of these friends, I can testify that experiencing a Muslim culture does change certain beliefs we may have held. I met many fine people there and truly enjoyed certain aspects of the culture.
That being said, the prophetic references in the Bible that appear to point directly to Islam are too numerous to ignore, particularly when you examine the lock-step polarity that Islamic eschatology has with Biblical eschatology. Rather than being pure prejudice, I believe this ME paradigm is pure logic. It plugs most of the holes that remain in the various Western paradigms. Though you disagree, you at least acknowledge that the apocalyptic judgments contained in the Bible are against lands that are today all Muslim. That’s no small point. Combined with the other evidences in the Bible, it’s not a great leap to connect the dots.
Still, I would imagine we agree on this point; that God loves Muslims also, and many Muslims will turn to Christ during the last days and will be counted as our brothers and sisters for an eternity. I would suggest to you that almost all of the participants on this blog do in fact love our Muslim neighbors enough to share the Gospel with them. It happens regularly.
If you have only monitored this site briefly, or have relied on reviews by other scholars opposed to the ME paradigm or Joel himself, you may not have the full picture yet. Numerous conversations take place here between Christians of opposing view points, and many Muslims also participate in a very interesting give-and-take. The Gospel is virtually always the focal point with the interfaith dialogue that occurs here, so please don’t be too quick to judge the site, the participants, or the author. Follow these topics for a while longer and I think you’ll have a different perspective.
Thanks for posting. God Bless.
October 13th, 2009 at 9:45 pm
Revelation 1:9-10a … I, John, your brother and the one who shares with you in the persecution, kingdom, and endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony about Jesus. I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day ……..
Matthew 24:13-14 … But the person who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole inhabited earth as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
It really isn’t a popularity poll, it really doesn’t matter how many believe when the Christian false doctrine of a rapture occurs, just because most think it will happen at such and such a time doesn’t make such belief right.
John was in the Spirit, John will be in the resurrection of Firstfruits, John has been saved, he has eternal life, he is no longer flesh and blood; something few if any of humanity possesses today. Simple test, if you or I cut ourselves, do we bleed? Flesh and blood can’t enter the Kingdom of heaven and humanity’s Elect will put on immortality at the end of the Endurance in the resurrection to the Great White Throne Judgment.
Please notice that John details three phases of the seven end-time years: 1) persecution, 2) Kingdom, and 3) endurance.
When the Second Passover Liberation of Israel {read Church} occurs to start the first 3.5 years {Tribulation} of the seven end-time years and 2+billion firstborns perish within the first 48 hours with the onslaught of the first Four Seal Judgments society will be in disarray worldwide {Christian, Muslim, Buddha, you name the culture} and want to get to Know the Lord. When this Second Passover Liberation occurs {perhaps 2011?} the resurrection of Firstfruits {barley harvest} will occur prior to the first Four Seals.
In earnest society will genuinely attempt to try to know the Lord, but after a little more than 7 months with all the devastation that has occurred there will be a Great Falling Away, perhaps a scenario in which parents will want Christmas for their children to be the best ever, they will observe the pagan holiday Christmas, thus falling away from the Way.
At the halfway point of the seven end-time years, the New Covenant will be implemented, the kingdom of this world will become the Kingdom of God, the world will be baptized in Spirit {they will have the Torah written on their hearts and know the Lord}, Satan will be cast down, and the disciple who endures to the end not taking the Mark and keeping the Commandments thereby obeying the Lord …. will be ressurrected to the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the endurance {the last 3.5 years}. If humanity during the endurance does not take sin back within themselves they will be saved, {wheat harvest}.
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, Theos and Theon and their respective Breaths
October 13th, 2009 at 11:51 pm
Wow! what is this…a convention for false prophets? Everyone is ready to pour out their unbelief which only proves they are not of the elect. And who are the elect? They are those who learn from Christ who is meek and lowly in heart.
Only the elect will be taken up in the rapture. The age of the Gentiles will wind down in the end of times,and the focus will be on the Jews and their converesion which will signal the imminent return of Christ to establish the kingdom of God. There are posters who reek with pride and arrogance and have every reason not to believe in a pre-rapture and who do not understand that the end of times is a time of imposition of God’s judgement and wrath not on the saints who are the elect, but on all of mankind who have yet to believe in Christ and who refuse to learn from Christ.
Here is a clue. If God warned the saints to leave Babylon, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS so that they would not share in any of her plagues what makes you think that he would subject the saints, who are the elect, to the tribulation period that would destroy all flesh, if those days had not been shortened?
“Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;”
October 14th, 2009 at 12:12 am
All post tribbers must be islamic, to believe that christ will take vengence out on the world (including the bride) who he is betrothed to. beat her up to the point of death. Nice I hope you did not beat your wife when you got married. Why would I then continue to serve him if he plans to assualt me before the big day. Aaah maybe because he wants to teach me who is in charge……
October 14th, 2009 at 12:46 am
Hi nobleday, frank… regarding the wrath of God that we as believers are promised to be delivered from, here is my view for your consideration:
Not Appointed Unto Wrath
The Bible is clear that we are promised to be saved from the wrath of God, but we read about the wrath of God during the tribulation in Revelation, and many will therefore ask, how can the rapture be post-trib? I believe that the answer to this question is in the text itself. All we need to do is figure out what the intended meaning is.
First, here are all the verses that are used to support a pre-trib rapture:
1 Thess 1:10, “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”
1 Thess 5:9, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ”
Romans 5:9, “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”
Eph 5:6, “Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.”
Now, if we exegete the text let’s see what we discover in the Greek:
1 Thess 1:10, — The wrath that we will be delivered from is the Greek “orge” (G3709).
1 Thess 5:9, — The wrath that we are not appointed to is the Greek “orge” (G3709).
Romans 5:9, — The wrath that we are saved from is the Greek “orge” (G3709).
Eph 5:6, — The wrath upon those who are disobedient is the Greek “orge” (G3709).
The word “wrath” is found 13 times in Revelation from the Greek word “thymos” and “orge”, but the “orge” of God that we are promised to be saved from is only found six times. Each time “orge” is used it is in a post-trib context:
1 and 2. It is mentioned AFTER the cosmic signs and the revealing of Christ Jesus (Rev 6:16-17). Jesus tells us in no uncertain terms that these signs happen immediately AFTER the tribulation (Matt 24:29). (Due to the Semitic styling that John used for the Book of Revelation, the seven seals are a general overview of the tribulation from start to finish).
3. It is found AFTER the SEVENTH trumpet (Rev 11:18).
4. It is used to describe the final torment of unbelievers in hell (Rev 14:10).
5. It is found AFTER the SEVENTH bowl (Rev 16:19).
6. It is used in connection with Christ’s Second Coming (Rev 19:15).
Therefore, even if the rapture does not happen until after the tribulation, we are still saved from the “orge” of God as promised.
October 14th, 2009 at 2:37 am
Now let me make this plain and clear.
Christ indwells the believers (Church) The kingdom of heaven is in them and is here. The holy spirit which indwells them (The restrainer) will be removed from the earth. allowing the antichrist to come and yes he lives today amongst us. Jesus said that the holy spirit would come and never leave us. So this means that when the holy spirit leaves we leave with him. The 7 years are appointed to Isreal to complete Sin and judgement. the church is not in revelations after john is called up to heaven(Rapture). They are in heaven(Saints in heaven). We then face the bema seat of judgement. and we the bride of christ then return with him to earth on white horses. If you understand wedding tradition of old. you will see that the father chooses the bride the groom then meets the bride and leaves going back to his fathers house and to build a place for his future wife. he then comes to fetch her. She does not know when he will come so she is always ready and waiting. someone at the gate waits to see if he is coming.
He sneaks in and wisks her away (Kidnaps her in a sence) and takes her to be with his parents place. She is then separated for 7 days preparation and the wedding takes place after seven days.
Isreal is not the church and we are not Isreal. The church did not replace Isreal. We are separate from them and the gentiles. paul in romans clearly explains this. But Isreal will have her days with God again. this will be when he has removed the church and now turns his attention back to Isreal. Daniels 7 weeks will then play out.
Is the spirit of God not in you. Do you not understand the scriptures. it is clear. I apologise if I sound insulting, but You must understand the church and it’s origins and purpose.
October 14th, 2009 at 3:58 am
Why am I so sure because I have seen things, and Was there when the rapture took place I do not think I should be telling you this but, If it helps you resolve. I Also saw what would happen after the rapture took place. It was horrible. I have seen the missiles hit Isreal. I cannot explain it but I saw these things through someones eyes. It was not my body there but someone else. And the UN. aah perhaps to much info is not Good. But I tell you the events which are to come are already taking shape. And the world is on its last moments. I will not tell you when these events will unfold but I will tell you they are here already. Why I was shown these things I still need to understand. Perhaps for me or perhaps for others. But I tell you America will fall, her sin is great. God Has spoken and you did not repent. Only after He struck you did you think what is going on.
but you are still asleep. As a fellow believer it saddens me to see these things. But it is now more than ever a good time for you all to start building up people and not tearing down.
Start evangelising like never before.
The end of all things is here. at you very door. wake up.
October 14th, 2009 at 8:30 am
Frank- Let me ask you something. Does anyone get saved after the rapture? The bible says that the antichrist reniges in the middle of the trib and heavy persecution comes. Who is this persecution against if the world is following him? It must be the people who got saved after the elect are raptured right? Who draws someone to Christ? The Holy Spirit right? Well if the Holy Spirit leaves the earth with the church, how will people get saved? Do you think that noone will be saved after we are raptured. Also the Trib is not Gods Wrath on he earth, its mans (The Antichrist) wrath against man. Gods wrath comes at the end and that wrath we aere appointed not to suffer.
October 14th, 2009 at 9:46 am
Frank, if you are saying that you received a vision of the future, it is well to ask for details lest you be deceived by your own desires and imagination. It is classic trademark to put out a teaser to establish the authority of being able to speak about certain topics and then retreat to the safety of secrecy, rather than to expose the visions to the light of truth - that which is in accord with the will of God.
That is not to say that you are wrong per se, but we also know of the phenomenal danger imposed by those who claim to have a vision from God and plunge millions upon millions to lies and spiritual ruin.
October 14th, 2009 at 9:46 am
I want to ask too, if I don’t believe in a pre trib rapture, will I be left behind ? Will my Faith fade, and I will be lost ? Sincerely asked, as I don’t know the answer.
God Bless
David
October 14th, 2009 at 9:57 am
To exit 40,
Since the rapture has yet to take place, we do not know if prior to the rapture you will be converted by God himself into being a believer because you were destined to be taken up in the rapture. Just because you do not believe at the present time does not mean that you will not believe before it occurs.
However, if you do not come to be a believer before the event, you are sure to be left behind if it comes within our lifetime. The most effective way to become a believer is to learn from Christ who is meek and lowly in heart. That is essentially the basis by which we come to believe the truth - that which is in accord with the will of God.
October 14th, 2009 at 10:21 am
So let’s see here, people who don’t agree with nobleday and Frank’s belief in the false doctrine of pre-trib rapture are: False prophets, not of the elect, reek with pride and arrogance, (per nobleday)…islamic, wife-beaters (per Frank) yet he’s the one having visions over a false teaching??? Then admonishes people over tearing each other down and questions whether or not they have The Spirit of God in them????………Please leave me alone to discuss disagreements civilly with people who disagree with me like JackC or Brandon above for example.
October 14th, 2009 at 10:25 am
Christopher,
You made some interesting points. But I would contend that the Beast system of Revelation will persecute and attempt to annihilate the Jewish nation and Gentile believers who are saved after the Church is raptured. While this persecution is occurring, God will be pouring out His wrath upon the earth and the Beast empire (which I agree will be a revived Islamic empire). In fact, it is Christ Himself who instigates the Tribulation judgements with the opening of the seals. I believe that just as God raptured Enoch prior to the Great Flood, and removed Lot prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, God will remove His Church prior to the Tribulation period. God does get glory when His people suffer for Him. But one day all of our suffering will cease. I just believe that it ends with the rapture before the Tribulation, not after.
October 14th, 2009 at 10:32 am
My desire here is to open the eyes of as many as possible to the false doctrine of pre-trib rapture, not to overly criticize or ridicule. As long as I can sow doubt about this false doctrine in the hearts of a few, I feel as though I’ve achieved something worthwhile. Many people have placed a lot of their faith on this non scriptural teaching which will eventually be kicked out from beneath them. The dramatic reactions of some people when this false doctrine is challenged is evidence of this.
October 14th, 2009 at 10:38 am
Also, Christopher, a primary reason I accepted Christ was my desire for self-preservation. I did not want to experience the judgment of God. But I also don’t want to experience the wrath of God during the Tribulation.
October 14th, 2009 at 10:50 am
JackC: In The Book Revelation we never see the faithful suffering God’s wrath, but we do see them being slain for God. Some judgments are even specifically mentioned as afflicting only the followers of the Beast. God knows how to keep his children form his wrath even though 10,000 may fall right next to them, remember the furnace of Nebuchadnezzar. Don’t believe and teach an scriptural doctrine just to make everything fit according to personal thoughts.
October 14th, 2009 at 10:54 am
unscriptural doctrine
October 14th, 2009 at 11:23 am
JackC, the wrath of God that we are not appointed to does not happen until immediately after the tribulation — the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is *NOT* the Tribulation, this is a misconception that many do not realize. According to Scripture, the Day of the Lord is when Christ physically returns to exact vengeance on the enemies of Israel who sought her destruction. In other words, it is Armageddon.
October 14th, 2009 at 11:27 am
Nobleday, just to insure you know, I do believe in Jesus as our Christ, I just don’t believe in a pre trib rapture. So are you saying God will convert me into a pre trib believer in order to go with the Church at that time ? Really, this is the part of the pre trib belief that has never been properly explained to me.
God Bless You
David
October 14th, 2009 at 11:42 am
DUDES! - reread the article you are posting under. “Now, regarding the study and understanding of Biblical eschatology, I am convinced of a few things. First, I am convinced that of all of the various arenas of theology, it is eschatology that we must be the most careful not to become overly dogmatic or pharisaical regarding. ”
Now, how about my (not original with me) idea of MULTIPLE RAPTURES?
October 14th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
Chris, I believe you had a freudian slip of the fingers.
October 14th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Chris, I believe you had a freudian slip of the fingers.
Now, as to the placement of the wrath of God during the Tribulation, would you agree that regardless of where the specific word “wrath” is used, the wrath of God begins with the opening of the first seal? If so, then from the beginning of the Tribulation until the end His wrath is in effect. Therefore, I believe that when believers are promised deliverance from God’s wrath, that means we will not be here at the beginning of the Tribulation.
Now that I have completely demolished your belief in a post-trib rapture, I need to leave to pick up my daughter from pre-school. I look forward to reading your comments when I return.
October 14th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
Now that I have completely demolished your belief in a post-trib rapture, I need to leave to pick up my daughter from pre-school. I look forward to reading your comments when I return. …LOL
October 14th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
To be clear I meant ‘LOL’ in a positive way. On a truly seriously positive note however, I kinda feel like at least you’ve been further exposed to some thought about a false teaching which you currently espouse.
October 14th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
nobleday,
“Wow! what is this…a convention for false prophets?”
Lets try to keep this professional and with love for each other. If you believe anyone has erred show how by using scripture. If you cant then keep comments such as these to yourself. Seriously we all claim to be part of the church but we are speaking to each other like a bunch of heathens. I’m not saying this to single anyone out (nobleday) there have been many over the line comments. But consider your aggression and pride before writing. We should all check our pride at the door when discussing eschatology in a forum such as this. Please be careful throwing around terms like false prophet as I can not think of a worse thing to be called. I hope you understand I say this humbly and sincerely and in no way want to provoke another argument.
Grace be with you all
October 14th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Chris,
For the record I agree with what you’ve been writing and seen a lot of opposition. Just letting you know your not alone in your conclusions.
October 14th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
JackC says, “Now, as to the placement of the wrath of God during the Tribulation, would you agree that regardless of where the specific word “wrath” is used, the wrath of God begins with the opening of the first seal?”
Hi JackC, can you show me where we read that the wrath begins with the first seal? And, is it the “thymos” or “orge”?
In my view, the “thymos” of God does not begin until about the fourth seal. In studying the text closely regarding the “thymos” of God, it seems to me that it is very specific regarding who experiences this — it is only upon Antichrist, his land, those who worship the Beast, who have the mark, those who persecute the saints, who refuse to repent. At first glance it may appear to be global, but I think that it is much more pinpointed in nature. Moreover, those upon whom this wrath is meted are still given the opportunity to repent.
There is no such provision during the “orge” of God immediately after the Tribulation, however. The “orge” of God (the type of wrath that believers are promised deliverance from) does not begin until after the sixth seal, which is post-trib.
Here is good chart that I mostly agree with:
http://www.americaisraelprophecy.com/picture/trib3.jpg
Borrowed from this page:
http://www.americaisraelprophecy.com/seven_seals_diagram.html
October 14th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Mitchell,
My in depth, exhaustive research into the Day of the Lord has led me to the conclusion that you are both right and wrong. You are right that Armageddon is a part of the Day of the Lord. But since the Day of the Lord encompasses the entire Tribulation period, Armageddon is just one event of that period, which also includes the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgements. Its like saying, “Back in my father’s day, only heretics believed in a post-trib rapture.” The word “day” in that context doesn’t mean a literal “day”, it means a period of time. Context is the key. By the way, I was just kidding about that heretics thing.
Chris,
I believe that Enoch’s rapture prior to the flood is a good illustration that the Church will be raptured prior to the Tribulation. I know that Enoch was just one person, but the Church is also one body, thus one person! Remember, Enoch wasn’t “mid-flood” or “post-flood,” he was “pre-flood.”
You also brought up the example of the three young Jewish men Nebuchadnezzar had thrown into the fiery furnace. Chuck Missler made an interesting comment regarding this. He, along with many other prophecy buffs, view Nebuchadnezzar and the forced worship of his image as a “type” of the Antichrist, and Daniel’s three friends as a foreshadowing of the 144,000 miraculously preserved through the “furnace” of the tribulation. That leaves a provocative question: Where was Daniel himself? Who might he represent as a type?
October 14th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Jumping in a bit late on this.
chris wrote
“disagree on the Abomination of Desolation, I believe it’s just before the Second Advent. ”
This is how it is described in the Daniel
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ’seven.’ In the middle of the ’seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
Two things from this.
The abomination is set up “on a wing of the temple” therefor there must be a temple to set up in.
It will be set up “until the end that is decreed”. It must therefor continue for some period of time and not be the trigger that ushers in the return of Christ.
Now lets look at 2 Thessalonians, and what it says in there about this event.
1: 3-4
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
…
7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,
10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Notice the following.
“all kinds of counterfeit miracles”, “every sort of evil”, “deceives those who are perishing”, “powerful delusion”.
All things that take time to work.
Now in Revelation.
13:5-8
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.
6 He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.
7 He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
Notice a couple of things, here.
Most importantly
“exercise his authority for forty-two months”
“Given power to make war against the saints”, “Authority over every tribe, people, language”, “All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast”.
It goes on.
14 Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.
15 He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
16 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,
17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
I believe that 15 shows details on just what the Abomination is that is “on a wing of the temple”. This he does I believe to usher in his forty two week reign over the earth.
If this is not how the lawless one is revealed, then how will it happen? The covenant “with many” will be just that, with many, so it may not be clear from the signatories, who exactly the AntiChrist is of those on the agreement. It may be clear, but the signing of this peace deal will not be followed immediately with the abomination of desolation, the temple has to be built, and a “wing” has to be prepared for it.
Bottom line, I think it is very clear that the AntiChrist will have authority for 42 months, and that those months start, not end, at his full revealing with with the Abomination of Desolation.
October 14th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
JackC, have you ever noticed the parallels between the Apostle Paul’s teaching of the rapture in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Thess 5 and Christ’s teaching in the Olivet Discourse? Consider the following parallels that Paul made:
PAUL REFERRED TO JESUS - COMING OF THE LORD FROM HEAVEN
JESUS: Matt 24:30 “… they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
PAUL: 1 Thess. 4:16 “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven…”
PAUL REFERRED TO JESUS - ANGEL(S)
JESUS: Matt. 24:31 “…He shall send forth His angels…”
PAUL: 1 Thess. 4:16 “with the voice of the archangel…”
PAUL REFERRED TO JESUS - TRUMPET BLAST
JESUS: Matt. 24:31 “…with the sound of a trumpet…”
PAUL: 1 Thess. 4:16 “…with the trumpet of God”
PAUL REFERRED TO JESUS - CATCHING UP OF THE LIVING
JESUS: Matt. 24:31 “…they shall gather together His elect…”
PAUL: 1 Thess. 4:17 “…shall be caught up together…”
PAUL REFERRED TO JESUS - THIEF IN THE NIGHT
JESUS: Matt. 24:43 “…if the master…had known what hour the thief would come…”
PAUL: 1 Thess. 5:1,2 “…so cometh as a thief in the night.”
PAUL REFERRED TO JESUS - WARNING AGAINST “SLEEPING’
JESUS: Mark 13:36 “lest coming suddenly He find you sleeping.”
PAUL: 1 Thess. 5:6 “…let us not sleep as do others”
PAUL REFERRED TO JESUS - WARNING AGAINST “DRUNKENNESS”
JESUS: Luke 21:34 “take heed…lest your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting and drunkenness”
PAUL: 1 Thess. 5:6-8 “be sober…they that are drunken are drunken in the night. …be sober”
PAUL REFERRED TO JESUS - “WATCHING” FOR CHRIST’S COMING
JESUS: Mark 13:35-37 “Watch ye therefore…What I say unto you, I say unto all, Watch.”
PAUL: 1 Thess. 5:6 “let us watch…”
The parallels are striking. In explaining the rapture, Paul is directly referring to Christ’s own teaching in the Olivet Discourse and connects the “watching” for the rapture with Jesus’ instructions for His disciples to be watching for His coming “immediately after the tribulation”. In other words, Paul is teaching us that the rapture is post-trib.
Read more here:
http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/air/009.pdf
October 14th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
Duke,
Thank you. As I mentioned earlier debate is a useful tool for learning. Arguing and bickering is not.
I used to be a pre-trib believer, now I am just a believer. I’m not convinced of when we will meet him in the air. I don’t care when he comes for me as long as he does. We are called to lay our lives down for Yeshua. That may be figuratively, that may be literally. Either way my life is in his hands and he will lead me where I need to go. What price can I pay that is greater than what was paid for me?
I think one thing I think we all agree on is that the time is short and a lot of people still need to hear the Gospel.
October 14th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Lorgan: The Antichrist rules for 42 mo.s period in my opinion. The only place that brings up 7 years is Dan.9:27 and what exact 7 is being talked about is unclear to me. He makes a covenant for one week and breaks his own covenant and executes the Abomination is all it really says…….As far a IIThes. goes, it is unclear on the timing of the Abomination as relates to the Second Advent but very clear that the Second Advent/Rapture will not occur until the Abomination happens first…….As far as counterfeit signs occurring before the Abomination I have no doubt…..I firmly believe that the Abomination is the culmination of the Antichrist’s rule. Matt.24:15 Jesus says that’s when it’s time to head for the hills and warns not to look for any secret christs. It also doesn’t make sense that an idol or mohammedan leader would be allowed in the Jewish Temple to proclaim himself god until Israel is defeated militarily…….Here’s something to ponder which I believe. I am inclined to believe that the Second Advent occurs exactly 45 days after the Abomination of Desolation per Dan.12:11&12
October 14th, 2009 at 5:53 pm
Chris,
Your dead on with your comments at 10:21am & 10:32am respectively. I found the comments by Frank and Nobleday laughable at best. I could not agree with you more strongly that as believers we must continue to expose THE FALLACY OF THE PRE/MID RAPTURE as heresy. Those who are a part of the Ecumenical Church who espouse the rapture simply want to be “whisked away” NEVER really experiencing persecution or tribulation other than being challenged by individuals like you and me. We in the West have never truly experienced persecution for the Gospels sake; nor does it appear that we are inclined to. For whatever reason God just simply favours us more than those who have had to make the ultimate sacrifice WILLINGLY WITH THEIR LIVES. I truly believe that there are many “so-called” believers that are OFFENDED by the very notion of having to surrender their physical lives for The Gospel. It’s great that Christ died for us, “let’s leave it at that!” is their mantra. The apostles and the Early Church had NO PROBLEM with facing persecution or the possible extinction of their physical lives because they understood and knew their God according to The Scriptures and by His Spirit.
Hopefully through this form of communication we can maintain contact. God bless you, your family, and your Ministry.
JackC,
My spirit takes to you, although I don’t know you personally. I read your response to my earlier comments. Your remarks about Enoch and Lot are dually noted but clearly taken out of their context. I don’t want to get into it with you other than that, because I can foresee the dialogue going back and forth between us for some time; besides you have your hands full debating with the “Other Chris”. God bless you, your family, and your ministry.
FOR HIS GLORY!!
October 14th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
Mitchell,
I believe you have fallen into the error of assuming that Matthew and Luke are dealing with the same event. This is an easy mistake to make since there are numerous similarities in both accounts, so its been common to assume that they both deal with the same event. The attempt to “harmonize” the gospels is the leading culprit causing this confusion.
I believe that Matthew’s account, written primarily for Jews, seems destined to be a survival handbook for those Jews living during the Tribulation period.
Luke’s account, on the other hand, written for Gentiles, seems to totally ignore the Great Tribulation. In fact, it would seem that his readers shouldn’t even be concerned about it:
“And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your
heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.” Luke 21:28
Matthew and Mark are private accounts that take place on the Mount of Olives to the inner core group of disiples (Peter, James, and John).
Luke, on the other hand, says:
“And in the day time he was teaching in the Temple; and at night he went
out, and abode in the mount that is called the Mount of Olives. And all the
people came early in the morning to him in the Temple, for to hear him.”
Luke 21:36-38
So, to sum up, the location, audience, and topics are different in both accounts.
Therefore, we need to be more precise when using them to “prove” a position on the rapture or any other doctrine.
When you do a verse-by-verse study of these passages, you will also discover that they differ about the siege of Jerusalem. Luke focuses on a desolation of Jerusalem that PRECEDES the series of signs that earmark both passages. Matthew focuses on a desolation of Jerusalem that FOLLOWS that same series of signs. Luke’s account deals with the fall of Jerusalem that occurred 38 years later in 70 AD. Matthew’s account basically ignores it.
So I don’t agree with your conclusion that Paul is teaching a post-trib rapture of the Church. I believe that he clearly teaches that believers in Christ will be raptured prior to the beginning of the Tribulation. This is consistent with God’s grace and mercy towards His bride, the Church. We are not appointed to suffer God’s wrath, which is what will be occurring to Israel and the kingdom of the beast during the Tribulation period.
I reserve the right to revise and ammend my comments at a later date.
October 14th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
JackC says, “I believe that Matthew’s account, written primarily for Jews, seems destined to be a survival handbook for those Jews living during the Tribulation period.”
Jesus says in Matthew 24:9 that “Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.” Christians are persecuted and killed for their faith in Jesus, not Jews.
JackC says, “Luke’s account, on the other hand, written for Gentiles, seems to totally ignore the Great Tribulation. In fact, it would seem that his readers shouldn’t even be concerned about it”
Let’s look at the text closely. The truth of the matter is that the opposite is true. Many have used Luke 28:28 and even 21:36 to support a pre-trib rapture, which says, “Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.” Is this really referring to a pre-trib rapture? Let’s look at it in its proper context and examine the words of Christ here:
Luke 21:25-28, “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars… At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Many often point to “begin” and say it only means the first few signs, but Jesus says “When these things begin to take place” AFTER describing the cosmic signs that we are told happens immediately after the tribulation in Matt 24:29-31. Why did He not say “when these things begin to take place” before mentioning those post-trib events? I think that this should be a significant clue for us.
A couple of verses later, in Luke 21:31, Jesus says “WHEN YE SEE THESE THINGS COME TO PASS, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand”, and again these things INCLUDE the post-trib cosmic signs and the coming of the Son of Man mentioned a few verses earlier.
Now let’s look at Luke 21:34-36, “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and THAT DAY will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the WATCH, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is ABOUT TO HAPPEN, [referring to “that day”] and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”
What day is “that day”? Jesus just gave us cosmic signs that Joel 2:31 tells us happens just BEFORE the Day of the Lord, but immediately AFTER the tribulation according to His own words in Matt 24:29. “That day” is the Day of the Lord. It is the day of Christ’s judgment, of His Divine Wrath - the “orge” that we as believers are not appointed to suffer (1 Thess 5:9). The Greek for “escape” in Luke 21:36 is “ekpheugō” (G1628) and is used elsewhere to refer to escaping the judgment of God (Romans 2:3). So how do we escape? Paul ties in the Day of the Lord with the gathering (rapture) in 1 and 2 Thessalonians, and tells us to WATCH for that day just as Jesus does in Luke 21:36. Since we know that the Day of the Lord takes place immediately after the tribulation, the escape — and therefore the rapture — is post-trib as well.
Paul taught a post-trib rapture, as did Christ.
One point I would like to make regarding the Church is this. According to what I have read in Scripture, as Christians we are now a part of Israel. We are a part of Jacob. As believing Gentiles we have been grafted into Israel and are part of the commonweath of Israel. We are fellow citizens with Israel. (Eph. 2:11-22; Romans 11). This is where traditional dispensationalism (which is what you appear to have been taught) has really confused the question of Israel and the Church for people, going through all kinds of theological gymnastics in an effort to somehow make the Church completely distinct from Israel. I believe this to be in err. Others have gone to the opposite end of the spectrum and claimed that the Church has replaced Israel, which itself is another error as well.
Instead, I believe strongly that the Church itself is true Israel as true Israel is the Church (Jews who believed in and looked forward to the promise of Messiah before He came, and those who believe in and look back to Messiah after He came) AND those of us who are believing Gentiles that have been grafted into Israel. God has made the two into one New Man.
Notice Acts 7:37-38. In referring to Moses and the children of Israel which wandered in the wilderness, we read, “This is he, that was in the CHURCH in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us.” In Matthew 18:15-18 Jesus was addressing this teaching to a “Jewish audience” and is calling them the Church, even though the Church as it is taught by traditional dispensationalism was not yet formed at that time.
Why?
ChristianAnswers.net makes a few points by noting that, “God has ever had only ONE CHURCH on earth. We sometimes speak of the Old Testament Church and of the New Testament church, but they are one and the same. The Old Testament church was not to be changed but enlarged (Isa. 49:13-23; 60:1-14). When the Jews are at length restored, they will not enter a new church, but will be grafted again into “their own olive tree” (Rom. 11:18-24; compare Eph. 2:11-22). The apostles did not set up a new organization. Under their ministry disciples were ‘added’ to the ‘church’ already existing (Acts 2:47).”
In Matthew 16:18 Jesus said that He would build His church “upon this rock”. But who is the rock? Peter or Christ? Scripture gives us the answer.
1 Cor. 3:11, “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”
1 Cor 10:1-4, “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST.”
Christ said that He would build His Church. Not create it from anew, but build it (the Greek word is “oikodomeō”) — the Church already existed for the foundation had already been laid, and now because of Christ Jesus, Gentiles would be added (grafted in) to His Church and would no longer be foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles AND PROPHETS, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. (Eph. 2:11-22).
Bob Pickle of Pickle Publishing makes a few noteworthy points by writing that, “Ekklesia, the Greek word translated ‘church’ in the New Testament, is often used to refer to Israel in the ancient Greek version of the Old Testament known as the Septuagint (LXX). In the LXX ekklesia is even used as a synonym for the Greek word sunagoge, a word that we transliterate as ’synagogue.’ Further, sunagoge in the LXX sometimes refers to Gentiles.” Therefore, scripturally, the type of distinction that traditional dispensationalism tries to make between Israel and the Church does NOT exist. “Many dispensationalists have said, ‘Israel is not the Church and the Church is not Israel.’ A lot of doctrines and eschatology are built upon this premise. Yet when one examines Scripture itself, one is surprised to discover that Israel in the Old Testament is repeatedly called the ‘church.’”
There is only one plan of salvation for man, and that has always been and will always be through Messiah Yeshua, and Him alone, for there is no other Name given under Heaven where we can be saved. One Tree, One Body, One Church, One Bride, One Savior, One God. That’s how I see it.
God bless …
October 14th, 2009 at 7:45 pm
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever……. I’m pretty much exactly with you on your thoughts about The Church.
October 14th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
I like to think of it like this. Its the superbowl. the Home team is on the 5 yard line and its 4th down. There is only 15 seconds left on the clock. The coach takes a quick time out and makes a strange decision. He takes all his first string linemen out of the game and puts in his third string practice squad to make a push for the fullback to score the winning TD. I am not a football fan but I do know enough to say that this would be a totally rediculous call and it might even get the coach fired or even have home team fans posing death threats. now why in the sam hill would the Lord remove his heavy hitting starting linemen(saints) before the superbowl(Trib). Its totally illogical. He needs his “A”squad to make the push for his glorious return!!!!! At least thats how my goofy mind thinks of it.
October 14th, 2009 at 8:55 pm
I agree Mitchell and another problem I had personally with the dispensational perspective was the “church” is separate and more special than the saints of old including the prophets even moses and elijah. I also don’t see why we would be eternally separate and different and I don’t think scripture implies that either. We are, were, and always will be saved by faith.
October 14th, 2009 at 9:09 pm
I like to think of it like this. Its the superbowl. the Home team is on the 5 yard line and its 4th down. There is only 15 seconds left on the clock. The coach takes a quick time out and makes a strange decision. He takes all his first string linemen out of the game and puts in his third string practice squad to make a push for the fullback to score the winning TD. I am not a football fan but I do know enough to say that this would be a totally rediculous call and it might even get the coach fired or even have home team fans posing death threats. now why in the sam hill would the Lord remove his heavy hitting starting linemen(saints) before the superbowl(Trib). Its totally illogical. He needs his “A”squad to make the push for his glorious return!!!!! At least thats how my goofy mind thinks of it.
October 14th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Good point pasty white fury!
October 14th, 2009 at 10:02 pm
Carnal minds trying to understand spiritual things. What a joke! Totally oblivious to the trauma of what the tribulation entails. And by the measure you use so shall it be measured back to you.
Those subjected to a carnal mind instinctively know that they will not take part in a pre-tribulation rapture. Therefore, they are adamant in rejecting a pre-tribulation rapture since it will not in any way, shape, or form, include them.
October 14th, 2009 at 11:07 pm
I wish there were a pre-trib rapture nobleday. Unfortunately, it is really nowhere to be found in Scripture imho. Fortunately, it is a secondary, non-essential doctrine and there will always be differing views. When it comes to pre vs post, however, either one group will be pleasantly surprised, or horribly disillusioned. At the very least, everyone who does not agree with the post-trib view should at least keep it in the back of their mind.
October 15th, 2009 at 5:13 am
Satan as the prince and power of the air has done a masterful job of deceiving the Christian church. The deception is so thorough the Christian church doesn’t even realize they’ve been deceived.
There will be no rapture, pre-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath, post-wrath, whatever … the disciples can argue back and forth until the cows come home … at the end of the day no one will be swayed to repent or change their understanding of Scripture. Sad, but all so true.
There will be a Second Passover Liberation of Israel, now the church of living stones as Peter details, rather than a rapture, and within 2 days planet earth within the bottomless pit will see its population decrease by 2+billion with the first Four Seal Judgments. Then, and only then will the Christian church come to its senses and realize how thoroughly they’ve been deceived.
Does Ezekiel 24 read as a rapture to you?
The Lord Will Judge the Earth
24:1- Look, the Lord is ready to devastate the earth and leave it in ruins; he will mar its surface and scatter its inhabitants.
24:2- Everyone will suffer … the priest as well as the people, the master as well as the servant, the elegant lady as well as the female attendant, the seller as well as the buyer, the borrower as well as the lender, the creditor as well as the debtor.
24:3 - The earth will be completely devastated and thoroughly ransacked. For the Lord has decreed this judgment.
24:4 - The earth dries up and withers, the world shrivels up and withers; the prominent people of the earth fade away.
24:5 - The earth is defiled by its inhabitants, for they have violated laws, disregarded the regulation, and broken the permanent treaty.
24:6 - So a treaty curse devours the earth; its inhabitants pay for their guilt. This is why the inhabitants of the earth disappear, and are reduced to just a handful of people.
24:7 - The new wine dries up, the vines shrivel up, all those who like to celebrate groan.
24:8 - The happy sound of the tambourines stops, the revelry of those who celebrate comes to a halt, the happy sound of the harp ceases.
24:9 - They no longer sing and drink wine; the beer tastes bitter to those who drink it.
24:10 - The ruined town is shattered; all of the houses are shut up tight.
24:11 - They howl in the streets because of what happened to the wine; all joy turns to sorrow; celebrations disappear from the earth.
24:12 - The city is left in ruins; the gate is reduced to rubble.
24:13 - This is what will happen throughout the earth, among the nations. It will be like when they beat an olive tree, and just a few olives are left at the end of the harvest.
24:14 - They lift their voices and shout joyfully; they praise the majesty of the Lord in the west.
24:15 - So in the east extol the Lord along the seacoasts extol the fame of the Lord God of Israel.
24:16 - From the ends of the earth we hear songs … the Just One is majestic. But I say, “I’m wasting away! I’m wasting away! I’m doomed! Deceivers deceive, deceivers thoroughly deceive!”
24:17 - Terror, pit, and snare are ready to overtake you inhabitants of the earth!
24:18 - The one who runs away from the sound of the terror will fall into the pit; the one who climbs out of the pit, will be trapped by the snare, for the floodgates of the heavens are opened up and the foundations of the earth shake.
24:19 - The earth is broken in pieces; the earth is ripped to shreds, the earth shakes violently.
24:20 - The earth will stagger around like a drunk; it will sway back and forth like a hut in a windstorm. Its sin will weigh it down, and it will fall and never get up again.
The Lord Will Become King
24:21 - At that time the Lord will punish the heavenly forces in the heavens and the earthly kings on the earth.
24:22 - They will be imprisoned in a pit, locked up in a prison, and after staying there for a long time, they will be punished.
24:23 - The full moon will be covered up; the bright sun will be darkened; for the Lord who commands armies will rule on Mount Zion in Jerusalem in the presence of his assembly, in majestic splendor.
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, Theon and Theos and their respective Breaths
October 15th, 2009 at 6:09 am
“Albino Fury.” Very nice.
October 15th, 2009 at 6:32 am
Nobleday,
I will leave it at this I will be praying for you and I encourage others to do so also as you cannot control these comments you make. Its seems you have other issues in your walk you should be addressing before prophecy ( I don’t write this to be harsh please try to “take it onboard”). I am very familiar with what Christ said in Matt 7 “and by the measure you use so shall it be measured back to you” that part of the chapter is warning man about hypocrisy please consider the things you are saying as that is what Jesus is talking about. If you judge people as false prophets or say they have a carnal minds and you are erred in some way you will be judged by the LORD in the same manner you placed judgement. Please consider humility and love when making comments about others on a Christian forum.
Grace be with you,
Mat 7:1 “Judge not, that you be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.
Mat 7:3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye?
Mat 7:5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
October 15th, 2009 at 9:43 am
From my understanding all this talk of the rapture is from an American, or at least very Western, point of view. Tribulation and persecution at this point seems distant at best, yet we can see it coming in our society today. How far will it go ? No one can say for sure, yet Scripture makes it’s statements. The one that I find to be most serious is that the rapture for the living is ‘ those who are alive and remain ‘. With all the other Scripture talking about the terrible times coming it just seems to me there won’t be all that many left. I believe there is more Scriptural support for a pre wrath/ post trib type event, but I just don’t think I will be one of the ones alive at that point. I am not fatalistic about this, but instead I strive to be worthy of service to Him. This means my testimony about him will not be shaken, not even unto my death. Am I carnal for believing this ? Is my offer of my life to Him somehow negated by someone else’s belief about a rapture ? Evidently so. I am apparently not Righteous enough to go pre trib because of my belief. And this is determined by men who believe differently from me.
I have a personal relationship with the Lord. He Loves me. And I Love Him so. I make many claims about that, but the one I won’t make is that I am Righteous enough for anything He offers. I liken myself to the man who hung on the Cross next to Him. I deserve to die, He did not. Yet because of Him, and my recognition and acceptance of Him, I did not die there that day. He took me down from there alive, that I might serve Him today, and any day that I am alive and remain. He alone determines my fate as it is He who has accepted my offer to Him. I am so grateful too.
Rapture ? Hardly seems worth discussing in light of what is coming to the world.
This is all very Spiritual, isn’t it ? Doesn’t feel carnal at all, but what do I know. I am just a sinner who lives by Grace.
God Bless
David
October 15th, 2009 at 10:09 am
FaiththatWorks, where do you get your theology from?
Mat 24:37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;
Mat 24:39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
Mat 24:42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
As in the days of Noah, one will be taken and the other left. You would have to have faith before you could claim that it works. From the very words coming forth from your mouth, it is obvious you do not have faith nor are you qualified to speak about spiritual things since you do not even acknowledge the authority of Scripture that clearly reveals a rapture (as in the days of Noah).
What you are qualified to do is to be a representative of the False Prophet Association. And in that context, you are well qualified, as evidenced by your false prophetic comments in regard to a rapture.
October 15th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Exit40: The modern version of this false doctrine actually began with visions by a girl named Margaret McDonald in Scotland. What you say pertaining to the secondary aspect of the Rapture as regards salvation is true, but It is important to discuss exactly because of the reactions of people like Nobleday. Those people and especially the people they influence and teach need to at least be exposed to some kind of warning that their faith may soon be tested by the failure of a doctrine of which they have built so much upon. I do in fact believe that one reason for the future ‘great falling away’ to happen before the Second Advent is in part due to the failure of this false doctrine which has become central to at least the escatological beliefs of most. I think this is more SERIOUS than most of us believe.
October 15th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Further as far as unbelievers go; I personally was drawn to Christianity mainly because of Bible Prophecy and I know I’m not alone. Anyone who’s tried to evangelize in 2009 America will know that times are getting harder, not easier as far as convincing people of The Truth. The Church just continues to lose ground and respect among the lost while the slander and satanic falsehoods never end. When the Rapture fails, it’s going to be disastrous for the credibility of Christianity, and remember that the strength, influence, and credibility of mohammedanism will be simultaneously skyrocketing in the worlds eyes……It all looks like a setup to me.
October 15th, 2009 at 10:39 am
Exit40/David,
The passion of your blog really touched me - thank you for putting things in perspective, reminding that in true humility we show our love for the Lord.
October 15th, 2009 at 10:41 am
To Chris,
If you will give an answer to the question posed by Puntius Pilate, “What is truth?” we can establish your status as a false prophet once and for all.
Since there may be people naive enough to believe that you have knowledge about spiritual things, it is an easy thing to do to see if you are qualified to speak about spiritual things by merely giving a response to the question “What is truth?” Since this is becoming a convention of false prophets, I lay the same challenge to all the rest who would challenge the veracity of the belief in the rapture.
October 15th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Albino Fury said “He needs his “A”squad to make the push for his glorious return!!!!!”
In love and humbleness - I disagree. He doesn’t “need” any of us to accomplish His will and glorious plan for the future. It’s not like He will be sacked for lost yardage if I somehow “miss my block.” And besides, who’s to say the Two Witnessess and the 144,000 aren’t the A team that will be “inserted into the game” at the end?
Otherwise, I love football analogies!
October 15th, 2009 at 11:06 am
nobleday you help my cause and it is essential that people hear your view as far as I’m concerned, but not for the reasons you imagine.
October 15th, 2009 at 11:21 am
Chris and co.
I pretty much understand your desire for persecution, believe me it will come. But I will suffer insult nad take it. Christ is my strength. I am not effended. However regarding the visions I had. I have spoken about it with some people. I have yet to understand what do I do with this knowledge I have. This is wht I cannot tell all. Believe me I wish I did not know these things. I wish at times I was not born. I know I have a endtime purpose. I have always known it. I have memories of things that happened when I was still inside my mother. She way electricuted I remember things from there. I confronted her this year about what happened and who was there when it happened and what was said. but let me tell you I was dead inside of her until that point. I mean Dead she was terrified as to what to do and did nothing. I died again when I was 5 years old. and came back. I have resisted my calling for many years for fear of man. But I am no longer afraid of man. what can they do or say to me.
love in Christ our savior
October 15th, 2009 at 11:42 am
Chris,
Questions,
1st What religion are you?
2nd If christian, which denomination.
3rd What church do you attend.
4th Have you been baptised in holy spirit.
5th do you bear fruit of your faith?
October 15th, 2009 at 11:48 am
Telling the truth about a false doctrine does not equate with a desire for persecution. In fact it might be nice if that false doctrine was true, but it’s not. If you feel I’ve insulted you, you’re wrong and I never meant any insult to you. My saying that you believe in a false doctrine isn’t an insult. Actually if you go back and investigate the comments, it is you who insinuated that I was an ‘islamic wife beater’. I forgive you…not kidding or being sarcastic here. As far as your visions go, It would be in your best interest to reveal them to people to see if they are Biblical or not. I already have doubts because you claim they affirm a teaching which I know to be scripturally false, but maybe you’re interpreting your own visions wrong. You really need to make sure your beliefs are scriptural so reveal and discuss your faith in detail with others, and I’m not saying necessarily here. At your Church or whatever, but you need to make anything like that public in my opinion.
October 15th, 2009 at 11:51 am
Dear all
I do not belive I blamed anyone directly of beating thier wives. …..
All I asked you to do was know who the church represents and you become angry.
Perhaps you need to look again at yourself and decide are you walking in love?
1 Corinthians 13: The Greatest Gift
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
October 15th, 2009 at 11:54 am
I believe that Jesus Christ The Son of Almighty God died for my sins and that is the only reason that I will ever be allowed in the presence of a Holy God. That in itself should be good enough for any true believer, everything else flows from that.
October 15th, 2009 at 11:58 am
Here’s your post in it’s entirety Frank:……….. “All post tribbers must be islamic, to believe that christ will take vengence out on the world (including the bride) who he is betrothed to. beat her up to the point of death. Nice I hope you did not beat your wife when you got married. Why would I then continue to serve him if he plans to assualt me before the big day. Aaah maybe because he wants to teach me who is in charge…… “
October 15th, 2009 at 11:59 am
I guess you didn’t accuse ME of being an islamic wife beater.
October 15th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Then you do not understand, “the comma” it went on to explain why I said what I said. If you believe that Christ is going to beat up his bride before getting married. then indeed, you agree to the principal that it is ok. this would make you Associated with people that do the act and approve of it.
But if you believe that christ is of that likened with the above then you have far bigger problems than when the rapture will occur.
In love
October 15th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
Christ on what basis do you believe the post rap thingy anyhow what scriptural references do you stand on besides basic doctrine.
How long have you read and prayed about what you have read. did you pray in the spirit about it?
If so what did the Spirit of God reveal to you.
Since you are so determined to call all who do not believe what you want to believe false prophets and the likes.
Tell me by which authority do you do this.
For I know by which Authority I speak. And I have looked at both views in my lifetime. only after pray and study did I see the light.
October 15th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
So then when the Rapture doesn’t occur as you believe, and it’s not going to happen, you’ll take part in the Great Apostasy?…….Satan can quote scripture, but he can’t act positively upon it, he usually employs it as a means of accusation against the Saints.
October 15th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
“Since you are so determined to call all who do not believe what you want to believe false prophets and the likes.” ………….I’ve never called anyone here a false prophet, I’m the one who has been called a false prophet!!!!! I’m done replying to you Frank.
October 15th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
opps the first word in my comment Labeled christ should be chris
October 15th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
To Chris,
What is truth? Do you have an answer?. Give us something tangible to go on to show that you are not a false prophet. Surely someone with such strong assertions as yourself would have something to say as to what is truth?
Face your fear. What is the worse that could happen? That we discover that indeed you are a false prophet who knows nothing about truth, based on his answer to the question of what is truth?
October 15th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Frank,
You are giving chris a stawman argument he never said Christ was going to “beat up his bride” you implied that and I believe you misunderstand the wrath of God and our take on the churches part in the trib. Regardless I must say to you and nobleday. 2 COR 13:5 “Examine yourselves”. Would Paul or Peter write the way you both have? The answer is no. These guys that disagree with you are not false prophets they are faithful servants of the Lord Jesus that are trying to run their theories by other believers for input they are not forcing a false gospel on anyone nor have either of you disproved their conclusions. Lets get one thing strait your opinion on the rapture is not a salvation issue so stop implying that others with differing opinions are unsaved because your display of uncontrolled anger is bad fruit. you said “I pretty much understand your desire for persecution, believe me it will come.” You are calling us unbelievers who do not believe in a pre-trib rapture seriously! you really think we are not saved because we came to this conclusion from scripture or because we are willing to suffer for Christ. Really?!
1 John 2:10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him.
1 John 4:20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can [fn] he love God whom he has not seen?
1 John 4:21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God [must] love his brother also.
Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
Jhn 13:35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
Jhn 15:12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Jhn 15:17 These things I command you, that you love one another.
Rom 12:10 [Be] kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another;
Rom 13:8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
Some eschatology is unclear but I think we can definitely be sure of one teaching LOVE ONE ANTHER
October 15th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
To Duke,
The individuals are undsaved in regard to being taken up in the pre-tribulation rapture because of their unbelief. I can assure anyone with certainty that if they do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture they will not be taken up in a pre-tribulation rapture. Thus, they will not be saved from having to go through the tribulation if they are still alive.
Wikipedia gives a wonderful discussion about the three points of view in regard to the rapture. Where Chris got off is that with total arrogance and disregard, dismissed the belief in a pre-tribulation rapture. If he is so grounded to truth, then let him asnwer the question as to what is truth? By his own words we will find out if there is any basis to put stock into anything that he has to say.
Even his research is questionable. the references given in wikipedia under the heading of the rapture give a reference to a discussion of Margaret MacDonald in website www.raptureready.com that readily disputes the claim that the belief in pre-tribulation started with Margaret MacDonald. It is faulty scholarship to give Margaret MacDonald credit for popularizing the belief in the pre-tribulation. Men like John Darby are given more of the credit.
Thus, faulty scolarship, faulty assertions, faulty conclusions from a mere amateur who shows limited knowledge of spiritual things at best.
October 15th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Dearest Duke,
tribulation and persecution are different. if you think post trib is correct then I tell you the wrath of God will be poured out on the people living on the earth. You as a believer should not be here when that happens for this reason I say pretrib. But pretrib midtrib or post trib you are correct the basic of salvation stand and nothing changes that. but to assume that the church will go through the trib is incorrect based on study of the scripture.
And my understanding thereof.
To clarify the point I am trying to get across you people is this.
The church and Isreal are not the same.
Wrath is poured out on the earth dwellers. not the church(Our Home is in heaven.)
The holy spirit indwells the church until the rapture. at which point the church is removed and take to heaven. the church age is a different thing altogether.
After the rapture and during the trib 3.5yrs and great trib 3.5yrs. the holy spirit will be on earth but not in the form of the church. as today is.
People will be saved as there will be 144000 jewish evangelists on the earth whom the antichrist cannot harm they have a seal on them. Those left behind after rapture will have a choice serve satan or God. Live or Die.
But there will be so much going on during this time that there will be many not saved. Those who survive will make it to start in the millenianal kingdom. (Christs Rule) after this 1000yrs is up will be judgement.
October 15th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
@Exit40
To answer your original question: No, you won’t be excluded from God’s kingdom if you don’t believe in a pre-trib rapture. If the rapture turns out to be pre-trib, you won’t be “left behind.”
One of the first rules of interpreting the Bible is that the main things are the plain things. The Bible is very clear that we must believe on — not in — Jesus Christ in order to be saved. But, in many areas, the Bible just isn’t clear about the end times.
Your salvation is based upon your relationshipt with Jesus Christ, not on your eschatological views.
I’ve been studying the end times since Hal Lindsey’s The Late Great Planet Earth was published. I read scholarly works, popular works, the internet — anything I could get my hands own.
For most of the last 30 years, I was a firm pre-trib believer. However, after much study, I ended up switching to the post-trib viewpoint and cautiously adopting partial pretererism, too. The emphasis is on the work “partial.” I was pleased when two scholars I admire, RC Sproul and Hank Hanegraff, adopted the partial preterist view a couple of years later.
The point is: When Jesus calls for you, whether it be pre-trib or post-trib or after your death, you will rise to meet him in the air. Although I believe the post-trib view, I’m not going to argue with Jesus on the way up if he decides to rapture me before the tribulation.
I agree that studying the end times is very important. However, it is a subject that is an intra-family discussion, not something to divide over. I believe that God’s plans will be revealed more clearly as time passes.
From your posts, it seems certain that you have already accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior. And the two greatest commandments are these:
1) “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.”
2) “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
Jesus commands us to do many things, all related to the Two Greatest Commandments. Nowhere are we commanded to believe in a pre-trib or a post-trib rapture.
-Mike
October 15th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
Nobleday and frank,
I am very familiar with the “dispensational” view and personally disagree. I will leave it at that.
grace be with you,
Duke
October 15th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
The early church taught on the pretrib rapture. do your research you will realise the revelation that later centuries of churches changes the doctrine to suit the times and there faithless generation. realise also who was behind the change in doctrine whic church era did this?
October 15th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
Chris, thanks Brother. I am familiar with almost all the arguments for any rapture scenario, including mutiple and no rapture. I’ve lost interest in the debate, but Bless you for your strength to continue.
God Bless You
Gidget, some would say I am all heart and passion, for Christ. I’m OK with that. In these days of contentious spirits it seems a passionate heart and quiet mind are a treasure, given, received, shared. I am content to wait on the Lord, all the while striving to be a good servant. If I ever get that right, then I want to be a slave. Pretty good work … if you can get it.
God Bless You
I am sorry I got involved in this debate again, even if briefly. Beliefs are hard to change, especially someone elses. Feel free to say this about me. The Truth will be revealed, in time. I pray for consensus in the Brethren. Barring that, a peaceful conversation.
God Bless
David
October 15th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
It is very important to discuss these teachings in public because there are a lot of people out there who will have their faith severely shaken while the Church will suffer a body blow to it’s credibility when this false teaching fails to materialize. As evidenced by some of the preceding posts above, it is evident that some people obviously base possibly more than just a secondary doctrinal standing to this subject. No one has to believe one way or another, but they should definitely hear both sides. Currently if one argues the post-trib standpoint, they face ridicule and are shouted down by many supposed leaders in the Church. Every false doctrine carries with it damage to ones spiritual condition whether we recognize it or not. I believe the rapture as accepted by the current majority of the Church is more serious that most understand.
October 15th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
“O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and cruciÞed; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have þed for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel;”
Dialog with Trypho, chapter 110.
-justin martyr
October 15th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
I stand by my comments about Margaret McDonald, look it up.
October 15th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
chris said:
“The Antichrist rules for 42 mo.s period in my opinion. The only place that brings up 7 years is Dan.9:27 and what exact 7 is being talked about is unclear to me.”
“I am inclined to believe that the Second Advent occurs exactly 45 days after the Abomination of Desolation per Dan.12:11&12″
Daniel 9:27
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ’seven.’ In the middle of the ’seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
Daniel 12:11-12
11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
I don’t understand how it could be any clearer that Christ will not come until after the entire appointed time, probably by the end of 1,335 days.
The Covenant starts the final 7
“In the middle” of the seven “on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation”
“From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.”
“Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.”
Wait for what is the question. Well in Revelation, after the bowls s of wrath, we have a “silence” in heaven.
There are many of the references to the “Day of the Lord”, which I equate with the return of Christ
Some interesting points about this day.
Isaiah 13:9 “a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger”
Ezekeil 30:3 “It is a time of doom for the nations”
Joel 2:31 “The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.”
Obadiah 1:15 “The day of the LORD is near for all nations. As you have done, it will be done to you; your deeds will return upon your own head.”
Zephaniah 1:7 “Be silent before the Sovereign LORD, for the day of the LORD is near. The LORD has prepared a sacrifice; he has consecrated those he has invited.”
2 Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.”
Other aspects.
1 Thessalonians 5:3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
So this is what I think all this means. That there will be relative peace near the end of the tribulation, with the Antichrist having subdued the world, and with the death of the two prophets and celebrations that take place because of it, the world will then say “peace and safety”.
It is important to note some changes that occur during and after this day.
Revelation 6
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red …
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
Who hides from his face? Those who opposed him. What do they say? Hide us from “him who sits on the throne”. At his return, it is clear as day to EVERYONE, just who he is and what he is doing.
There will be no more doubt about the nature of God, no more human government, no more opposition.
Remember
Daniel 9:24
Seventy ’sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.
So to support your position on the advent being 45 days after the abomination that causes desolation, please explain what exactly the remaining 1245 days of the last half of the week of Daniel would in fact be for.
Would not all the things described in Daniel then have happened on “The day of the Lord” and those remaining days not matter?
What happens after those 1245 days that is different from what happens during them?
October 15th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
now if the day and hour of our lord is unknown why then would he give us time markers?
when he comes to fetch us this is the unknown hour because we known when the seven years are up it will be over
October 15th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Lorgan: We probably agree more than we disagree. The crux of our differences I believe stem from different views of exactly what is being said in Dan,9:27….It never says the covenant starts the final seven, a very salient point in my opinion. I believe he makes a seven year treaty, part of which is the ‘ending of the daily sacrifice’. He only reigns for three and a half years-important. In the middle of his treaty, after spending the first31/2 years consolidating his control of the world and murdering as many Saints as possible, he turns back on Israel, takes Jerusalem, plunders the city, Proclaims himself god in The Temple of God, and then declares everything done..’peace and safety’ …The islamic god-man al mahdi reigns in his temple, everythings perfect, but Jesus says otherwise and takes the kingdom by surprise.
October 15th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Gee, we hear the challenge from Chris, “Look it up”. And so we comply.
“Dave MacPherson built upon Tregelles’ accusation, and claimed the source for Darby’s rapture was from an utterance of Margaret MacDonald.
However, scholars think there are major obstacles that render these accusations untenable. It is clear that Darby regarded the 1830 charismatic manifestations as demonic and not of God [6]. Darby would not have borrowed an idea from a source he clearly thought was demonic [7]. Also Darby had already written out his pretribulation rapture views in January 1827, 3 years prior to the 1830 events and any MacDonald utterance [8]. When MacDonald’s utterance is read closely, her statements show her to hold a posttribulationist position (“being the fiery trial which is to try us” and “for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus”)[9] [10]. For these and other reasons, scholars consider MacPherson’s alleged connection to dispensationalism as untenable[11].”
Like a true amateur and poor scholarship, we are left with the trivial remark: :
chris Says:
October 15th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
I stand by my comments about Margaret McDonald, look it up
October 15th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
The main reason I see the Abomination of Desolation as occurring at the end is because it sounds to me that that is how Jesus describes it in the Gospels. Take a close slow look at Matt. Chapter 24…Mark Chapter 13..Luke Chapter 21. I don’t know, but it looks obvious to me.
October 15th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
by the way, the sourc is Wikipedia in regard to the comments on margaret Macdonald.
October 15th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
Nobleday I refuse to reply to you for obvious reasons.
October 15th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
good call chris
October 15th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
The carnal mind is enmity to God. Why is it that “adults” can’t carry on a conversation in which various opinions are stated without it getting into a name calling event? All Christians know the Commandment; paraphrased, “love the Lord your God above all else and to love your neighbor as yourself.”
Without that love when the time comes God will say to you that “He never knew you.” Without that love you may think you are doing mighty works in the Name of God, but when the time comes God will say “He never knew you.”
Dear Nobleday, I take meaning from Scripture via Typological Exegesis. And I stand by my statement that the Rapture is a false Christian doctrine. Most if not all disciples are in reality disciples of their teachers who thru the years have taught them their beliefs. By googling “Rapture False Doctrine” anyone may hundreds of teachings on this including the one below.
http://biblestudysite.com/rapture2.htm#5
Some within Christianity believe that humankind is under grace and since humankind is under grace anything goes. Not so. Why? Lawless ones who take sin back within themselves {i.e., not loving your neighbor as yourself} are children of the devil {1 John 3:4-10}.
So, Nobleday, I respectfully rebuke your statement to me, and I quote, “What you are qualified to do is to be a representative of the False Prophet Association. And in that context, you are well qualified, as evidenced by your false prophetic comments in regard to a rapture.” Because, the reality of the matter is that your former teachers, teachers that to you appeared to be angels of light, teachers who you are now basing your statements upon were teachers teaching a false doctrine. And Nobleday I say this in love rather than the hatred spewed back and forth between you and others in this thread in the sincere hope that you will see the true light.
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, Theon and Theos and their respective Breaths
October 15th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
huh??? we in good company they called Jesus the prince of demons.
My beloved why do you do this. These people are stiff necked Just like the pharicees
October 15th, 2009 at 6:21 pm
chris:
Have you considered the connection from Luke 21:24 to Revelaton 11:2
20 When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.
…
24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations.
Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25 There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.
26 Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Revelation 11:2
1 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there.
2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles.
They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.
Seems pretty clear to me that there is strong support for the idea that the Antichrist will rule from Jerusalem for 42 months.
October 15th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
Chris,
Excellent job. Despite all the absurdities thrown at you. Since when is one considered a false prophet for showing something to be scripturally unsound? I totally agree with you that when the pre-trib rapture fails to materialize, it will cause the great falling away. I’ve heard prophecy teachers, and now nobleday and Frank say that if you don’t believe in it, you don’t believe your bible. The pre-trib rapture has only been taught in the past couple of hundred years, and only in western sources. Look at how emotional they’ve gotten, and have made it a matter of theology. That’s pretty scary stuff. Sadly this is the norm in the western church.
Mitchell,
I read your link, totally disproves the pre-trib rapture and taken from bible verses only. Awesome! Could you put it up again so that Frank and nobleday could read it instead of basing their beliefs on what their itching ears want to hear?
Frank,
I’d be curious to hear about your visions as well and see how they line up with the bible. I once debated a man who claimed to be a prophet and said that God told him Islam was the way he chose to reach arabic peoples. Totally unbiblical and antichrist, and therefore a false prophet. Let’s see where you stand.
October 15th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Looks like we disagree over the timing of the Abomination of Desolation (AOB) Matt.24 up to verse 15 which is the AOB up to that verse the Saints are being murdered, false prophets abound, numerous wars, it appears the gospel is preached worldwide, then the AOB happens. Afterward we are to flee at all speed leaving even our clothes.Doesn’t sound like 31/2 years, more like 45 days……..Pretty much the same story in Mark 13 and Luke 21……..45 days is plenty of time to utterly destroy and exile everyone in Jerusalem especially by a character as blood thirsty as the Antichrist. If the Antichrist is in Jerusalem for 31/2 years, what explains all the activity before that? Check out Zech.14,1-3 It doesn’t sound like 31/2 years either. As far as the Temple Court being treaded down by the Gentiles, there’s something in the 7 year treaty where the daily sacrifice is taken away so evidently the Jews are giving something up 31/2 years before the AOB I don’t imagine the Jews allowing their Temple to under go something like the AOB unless they are militarily defeated. In REV. 12 after the Dragon is thrown out of heaven he is frustrated in his attempt to destroy Israel and turns his wrath upon the Christians instead. I hope you follow my thoughts here,but I’m not saying any of this with the surety that I have about post-trib rapture so I understand your points really………..Anyhow just on another note as far as the seventy weeks of Daniel go, I see it like this: 62nd. week First Advent…69th. week Second Advent…the 70th. week is after Satan is unchained at the end of Christs millennial reign and finally destroyed bringing in everlasting righteousness as per DAN. 9
October 15th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
Thank you for the kind words Ignobleuse, we need to sow doubt at the very least in the minds of people who have been set up for a possible hard fall.
October 15th, 2009 at 8:22 pm
Eeek! We flushed out a pagan. Faiththatworks is a Theosophist.
“the theosophical society is a nonsectarian undogmatic worldwide organization devoted to human solidarity cultural understanding and self development.”
“Organized in New York City in 1875, the Society’s principal founders were Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, the first Russian woman to be naturalized as an American citizen, and Henry Steel Olcott, a prominent lawyer and journalist who became the first President of the Society. Madame Blavatsky was a Russian of noble birth, whose mother was a social novelist and whose grandmother was an accomplished amateur scientist. As a young woman, she traveled all over the world in search of wisdom about the nature of life and the reason for human existence. Eventually, Blavatsky brought the spiritual wisdoms of the East and of ancient Western mysteries to the modern West, where they were virtually unknown. Her writings became the first exposition of modern Theosophy.”
“Theon of Smyrna (ca. 70–ca. 135) was a Greek philosopher and mathematician, whose works were strongly influenced by the Pythagorean school of thought.”
“Pythagoras of Samos (Greek: Ὁ Πυθαγόρας ὁ Σάμιος, O Pūthagoras o Samios, “Pythagoras the Samian”, or simply Ὁ Πυθαγόρας; c. 570-c. 495 BC[1]) was an Ionian Greek philosopher and founder of the religious movement called Pythagoreanism.”
Wow, Wikipedia is getting a workout today.
Faiththatworks would rather listen to the pagan teachings of Helena Blavatsky rather than listen to the likes of the apostle Paul who made it absolutely clear that we would be taken up to be with Christ when he returns.
Faiththatworks makes a simple quote of Christ in regard to the golden rule that is practically universally accepted and conveniently neglects to tell us that he is a Theosophist and a pagan as well as a false prophet.
“The Pythagoreans, too, held that void exists, and that it enters the heaven from the unlimited breath – it, so to speak, breathes in void. The void distinguishes the natures of things, since it is the thing that separates and distinguishes the successive terms in a series. This happens in the first case of numbers; for the void distinguishes their nature.”
By his own words Faiththatworks confesses some pagan or pagans to be his lord. “Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, Theon and Theos and their respective Breaths.”
Thank you Lord Jesus for being by Lord and God. And it remains to be seen if Theosophists and Pythagoreans turn out to actually be the false propeht mentioned in the Book of Revelation. And it could turn out that the image of the beast that was given breath is nothing more than a return of the pagan beast of Pythagereans.
The Pythagerean pentagram also had two points up. And being a pentagram it
The much older SUMERIAN pentagrams served as pictograms for the word UB; meaning “corner, angle, nook; a small room, cavity, hole; pitfall,” suggesting something very similar to the pentemychos. In the Labat (dictionary of Sumerian hieroglyphs/pictograms) it is the number 306, and it is shown as two points up.
It would be interesting to find what pictogram or hieroglyph represented 666. Could it be that the beast of end time prophecy is a return to the pagan Pythatgerean belief updated by the modern Theosophoist beliefs? In that case, the move to a one world religion could be a propagation of modern day Theosophy which is basically a return to the pagan beliefs of the Pythagereans.
October 15th, 2009 at 8:49 pm
Wow! Ignobleuse has chosen to put in his three cents and show the world that he is just as ignorant as the rest, and probably too lazy even to look up the discussion of the rapture in Wikipedia. But then again, What do you expect from a poster whose blog on Google COMES WITH AN ADULT CONTENT WARNING!
What I have stipulated is that if you don’t believe in a pre-rapture, you will be denied being part of a pre-rapture because of your unbelief. What I can also say for a fact is that Ignobleuse shows every sign of being carnal minded up to his eyeballs that prevents him from being able to understand spiritual things. But then again, there may be a reason why the poster chose the name ignobleuse and why his blog site comes with an ADULT CONTENT WARNING.
October 15th, 2009 at 10:42 pm
Actually nobleday, I chose my name from
2 Timothy 2:20In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble.
Just because of how I’ve felt in the past about my relationship with God. I put an adult warning on my blog because I sometimes have an off-color and irreverent sense of humor. But I obviously don’t advertise my blog on here because it’s entirely irrelevant, and empty for that matter lol.
But to give you an example of my odd sense of humor, I think it’s funny as heck to see you sputtering and spitting out “STONE THEM!!! STONE THEM!!!” like a wheezing old pharisee every time someone on this blog disagrees with your backwards interpretation of the bible.
October 15th, 2009 at 10:49 pm
I’m sorry, I apologize to you nobleday for my last comment. That’s entirely unchristian and I have no right to judge even those who think they have the right to judge.
October 15th, 2009 at 10:52 pm
JackC says, “But since the Day of the Lord encompasses the entire Tribulation period, Armageddon is just one event of that period, which also includes the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgements.”
JackC, can you please show — through Scripture — why you believe that the Day of the Lord encompasses the entire period of tribulation?
Pastor Tim Warner of the Oasis Christian Church lays out reasons why that assumption is incorrect exegetically and hermeneutically.
Following are nine biblical reasons why the Day of the Lord cannot include the tribulation, as pre-tribbers claim, but must follow it.
1. Joel 2:31/Acts 2:20 and Matthew 24:29/Mark 13:24 place the same cosmic signs between the END of the tribulation and the BEGINNING of the Day of the Lord. The two cannot overlap, otherwise these verses could not be true.
2. In Isaiah two, the very first time the Day of the Lord is mentioned in the Bible, Isaiah wrote that THE LORD ALONG will be exalted in that day. This is an exclusive statement. Since, during the last half of the tribulation, the Antichrist will be worshipped as God, the two cannot overlap [cf. Isaiah 2:11,12,17 & Rev. 13:12]. The Antichrist cannot be worshipped in the Day of the Lord, since Isaiah says the Lord ALONE will be exalted. Also, all idols will be abolished during the Day of the Lord. Yet, during the tribulation, the image of the Beast, and other idols will be worshipped. [cf. Isaiah 2:18 & Rev. 9:20,21 & Rev. 13:15].
3. Zechariah 14:7 indicates that the Day of the Lord is a 24 hour day. The Hebrew text says: “that day shall be one.” [See also: Isa. 10:17]
4. Three times the phrase “the Day of the LORD COMETH” is used in the Old Testament. [Isaiah 13:9, Joel 2:1, Zech. 14:1]. In each case the text immediately begins to describe the battle of Armageddon. The word “cometh” is the Hebrew word “bow” [Strong’s #935], a verb meaning to come or arrive. It implies the beginning of the Day of the Lord. In all three cases, the ARRIVAL of the Day of the Lord brings the battle of Armageddon. In the New Testament, twice it is said the Day of the Lord “cometh” as a theif in the night (1 Thess. 5:1,2 & 2 Peter 3:10). In both cases the immediate destruction of the wicked occurs. Paul says “sudden destruction” overtakes the wicked, and Peter says the land will be devoured by fire along with the scoffers.
5. Joel 3:9-17 describes the gathering of the armies of the nations around Jerusalem for the battle of Armageddon, the cosmic signs, and the coming of the Lord. AFTER the armies are gathered, but BEFORE the cosmic signs, Joel wrote that the Day of the Lord is “near.” The Hebrew word means “at hand,” “imminent,” or “next in sequence” [Strong’s #7138]. The Day of the Lord must begin AFTER the armies of the nations are gathered for the battle, which occurs at the end of the tribulation, according to Rev. 16:13-16.
6. According to Revelation 16, The armies of the nations are gathered at the end of the tribulation for “the battle of the great day of God Almighty. Therefore, the “Day of God” is clearly after the tribulation when the battle occurs. Peter shows us that the terms “Day of God” and “Day of the Lord” are synonymous, by using them interchangably when repeating himself [2 Peter 3:10,12]. (This is the only other occurrence of the phrase “Day of God” in the Bible.)
7. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 NASB/NIV says the “Day of the Lord” will not come until AFTER the “falling away,” and the revelation of the “man of sin.” Verse 4 indicates how he will be revealed, by defiling the Temple at the mid-point of the tribulation, [see: Matt. 24:15]. Therefore, the Day of the Lord cannot begin before the mid-point of the tribulation.
8. According to Mal. 4:5, Elijah the prophet will come BEFORE the Day of the Lord comes. Most agree that Elijah is one of the two witnesses in Revelation. Therefore, the Day of the Lord cannot begin until after the two witnesses come.
9 There are many synonyms for the “Day of the Lord” in the New Testament. We know that on the Day of the Lord, the “Lord” who comes in power “with all His saints” in Zech. 14:1-6 is Jesus Christ [cf. Zech. 14:1-6, Acts 1:9-12, 1 Thess. 3:13]. We also know that there are various combinations of Jesus’ name in the New Testament, including; Jesus, Christ, Jesus Christ, Christ Jesus, Lord Jesus, Lord Jesus Christ, and Lord. Since the simplest explaination is almost always correct, it is very likely that all of the following phrases are speaking of the same day. Day of Christ [Phil. 1:10], Day of Jesus Christ [Phil. 1:6], Day of the Lord Jesus Christ [1 Cor. 1:8], Day of the Lord Jesus [1 Cor. 5:5], Day of the Lord [1 Thess. 5:2], Day of God [2 Pet. 3:12], Day of God Almighty [Rev. 16:14]. [See also referrences to “the Great Day:” Zeph. 1:14, Jude 1:6, Rev. 6:17, Rev. 16:14.]
Link to follow …
October 15th, 2009 at 10:54 pm
http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/
October 15th, 2009 at 10:58 pm
Nobleday,
I have tried to warn you that you are behaving as a heathen and speaking as foul as any non-believer. But you don’t listen. Please just stop writing here so we can enjoy the fellowship of a profitable discussion.
October 16th, 2009 at 1:08 am
Nobleday, They will not believe or understand.
They do not know or understand the scripture.
They read the scripture but cannot understand it. peraps not filled with the spirit?
They have not any idea that jesus will come twice once in the clouds and again to mount zion.
Now Brothers since the rapture is an event we cannot predict by day or hour we sould at least rejoice amonst us that we are saved. by faith.
As for discussing the visions I have had will by no means help any of you.
It centers on things of tomorrows days and the things which are yet to come. But even the days of them has begun. I tell you some things. Major earthquakes are coming real soon. we are living in the time of the sign of the times. The earth will shortly be scorched. Great war is soon to breakout. and many will die. nuclear weapons will also be unleashed. But as for you who believe you have nothing to fear. your salvation is safe in Christ Jesus. When you see all these things taking place at once just be ready. Just like the virgins have enough oil with you to stand the testing coming(Time).
Tell me those that believe the Abomination of Daniel. Did yopu know this already took place in history.
The abomination in revelation has not.
Father in loving hands you have placed you children, Lord of heaven give them wisdom and knowledge to understand the history and times. and to understand the scripture. I ask it in Jesus Name your Son.
October 16th, 2009 at 1:13 am
http://www.ucg.org/booklets/UP/abominationdesolation.asp
October 16th, 2009 at 5:03 am
Dear all,
I apologise if I offended anyone.
When ever the event of the rapture takes place we will rejoice together.
I for one cant wait to meet Jesus and Our Father Face to Face. And bow down and worship Him forever and ever. For He is true and just.
When we shall behold Him who was pieced for us. Glory and honour to Him, Jesus my Lord.
God be with you all.
October 16th, 2009 at 6:01 am
Forgiven and forgotten
Colossians 3:12-17…….
12 - Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with a heart of mercy, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience,
13 - bearing with one another and forgiving one another, if someone happens to have a complaint against anyone else. Just as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also forgive others.
14 - And to all these virtues add love, which is the perfect bond.
15 - Let the peace of Christ be in control in your heart for you were in fact called as one body to this peace, and be thankful.
16 - Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and exhorting one another with all wisdom, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, all with grace in your hearts to God.
17 - And whatever you do in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
1 Peter 2:1-3
1 - So get rid of all evil and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander.
2 - And yearn like newborn infants for pure, spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up to salvation,
3 - if you have experienced the Lord’s kindness.
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, Theos and Theon and their respective Breaths
October 16th, 2009 at 8:53 am
I’ll probably regret entering this debate, but Frank, the ‘abomination’ of Daniel is the same as the ‘abomination’ in the Gospels and the ‘abomination’ in Revelation. This event was not partially fulfilled with Epiphanes. I’ve studied his history extensively, and it does not match the conditions of Daniel. To the contrary, this is an unfulfilled event that is easy to demonstrate.
First, the ‘Seventy Sevens’ lay the ground work in Daniel 9:27, which most scholars agree has an ‘end times’ bent. Then Daniel 11:31 adds additional insight that also suggests an end times context, although some still insist on shoe-horning Epiphanes into the mix there. Individually, even if we assume that these verses don’t clearly identify the precise moment in history of this event, they do set the table for subsequent revelations. Fortunately, we have one additional reference to this ‘abomination’ in Daniel that does identify its timing;
Da 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days. 13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance. ”
Why must this be a future event? Because this passage identifies the future raising of the dead 1,335 days after this ‘abomination‘. Daniel is informed that this is when he would “rise to receive your allotted inheritance.” What could this “inheritance” be, and why must he “rise“ to receive it? The answer is obvious. It’s the raising of the dead at the end of the age, where the saints will receive glorified bodies for eternity.
For additional context, Matthew 24 refers to only ONE abomination in Daniel, not multiple potential abominations;
Mt 24:15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains…”
In this phrase Jesus Christ identifies THE abomination in Daniel as an end times event, and He refers to it as a singular event. He does not say ONE OF the abominations spoken of by Daniel, He says THE abomination. No other abomination in history is inferred. This is no small point, particularly when each of the references to the abomination contained in Daniel can be easily reconciled to this future event. The visions of Daniel represent a self-contained progressive revelation, with each preceding vision systematically providing context that can only be fully understood by plugging their conditions into the final account of “The Kings of the South and the North”. Only in this way does the timing and context of this event become crystal clear.
Although I’ve posted the frame work of that study here before, it would take too much space to do it again. I just wish this simple concept was better understood, since it would curtail much unnecessary argument.
October 16th, 2009 at 9:11 am
Frank says, “Now Brothers since the rapture is an event we cannot predict by day or hour …”
Does Jesus say that no one will ever know or can ever know the day or hour? The words referred to here by Christ are in Matt. 24:36; 25:13 and Mark 13:32 when He said that “no one knows the day or hour” of His return. As we would all agree, everything that Christ says is Truth. But are we understanding what He said here the way that it was intended to be understood? If we are to understand the verses above to mean that we can never know, then Revelation 3:3 presents a serious problem for us. Scripture does not contradict Scripture and in my view I believe that Revelation 3:3 alone, not to mention Matthew 24 and Luke 21 as a whole, are serious problems for the idea that we can never and will never know when Christ will return. Here is why.
Revelation 3:3 says, “Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I WILL come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt NOT know what hour I will come upon thee.”
This statement by Jesus is often overlooked, but it uses the exact same language as the verses above and reveals something that is very significant and profound: IF we do not watch He WILL come upon us as a thief and we WILL NOT know what hour He will come upon us. If this verse is true, then the inverse must also be true: If we DO watch, He WILL NOT come upon us as a thief, and we WILL know. If this is correct, and if we watch and can know, then some of the pop theology positions we’ve held have a bit of a problem from a textual and theological standpoint.
Christ’s words in Revelation 3:3 are true just as His words in Matt 24:36. So, how could Jesus say that we could never know the day or the hour of His return and then imply that we could know in Revelation 3:3? As mentioned previously, Scripture cannot contradict Scripture so either one of the verses is wrong (which is not possible), or our understanding is wrong somewhere. It’s not hard to figure out which one it is.
Let’s look at Mat 24:36 closely: “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only”. Are there other clues here that can help us to resolve the seemingly contradictory statements by Christ? Yes. As with all Scripture we must maintain context, context, context. If we look more closely and read the verse in its proper context we realize that Jesus does *not* say anywhere in this verse, nor in the context of Matthew 24 or elsewhere, that we can not know and that we will never know. Jesus is merely saying, in the present tense per the Greek, that we do not know right now when He will return. A few verses later in Matthew 24:42 Jesus tells us to WATCH for the signs that He just gave us. Why watch? Watch BECAUSE we do not know the day or hour of His return. Since we do not know the day or hour of His return today we must watch for those signs that He provided so that we CAN know, which is exactly what He alluded to in Revelation 3:3. This is also the exact same thing that Paul wrote about in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5, telling us that the Day of the Lord is our gathering unto Christ, and that that day - the Day of the Lord - will NOT overtake us as a thief IF WE WATCH. Watch for what? Exactly what Jesus told us: “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand)” (Matt 24:15).
A few more quick verses to consider:
Col 3:4 — says, “When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.” This says that when Christ appears, we will then be with Him. When does He appear? Matthew 24:29-31, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days … shall appear the sign of the Son of man … And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect”. The rapture happens as soon as the last trumpet begins to sound (Rev 10:7), and it is instantaneous. This suggests a post-trib rapture.
Notice what Peter says in 1 Peter 1:7, “That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ.” The Greek word for “appearing” here is “apokalypsis”, and it’s not hard to figure out what this is referring to. It is the manifestation, the revealing of Christ Jesus at the Second Coming per Matthew 24:29-31. It is where the Book of Revelation gets its name from. This again is suggesting a post-trib rapture.
Holding a pre-trib position, we’ve always taught that Jesus comes out of heaven before the tribulation, stops in the clouds, rapture the Church, and then goes back to heaven for the next seven years. However, Acts 3:21 says that “He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.” Jesus does not begin to restore everything until the Day of the Lord — Armageddon — so my question would be how can Acts 3:21 clearly say that Jesus must remain in Heaven until this time, yet the pre-trib teaching says that He leaves Heaven prior to the tribulation for a pre-trib secret rapture? This, yet again, suggest a post-trib rapture.
October 16th, 2009 at 9:32 am
Faiththatworks, you have shown yourself to be a Theosophist with pagan beliefs. These were your very words: ( Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, Theon and Theos and their respective Breaths). And yet, you naively think you have something in common with Christians or Christian beliefs. If you knew Christianity you would know that confessing “Jesus is Lord” is part and parcel of being saved. Instead, you proclaim some Theosophist belief and proclaim a Theo and Theo as you lord. Thus, you have no credibility but you instead have opened up the possibility that the rise of the Antichrist may well coincide with a return of pagan beliefs as adopted by the Theosophist who borrrowed from Pythagerean, and Summerian pentagram hieroglyphics.
However, you have inadvertently offered us an alternative to having the Muslims give rise to the Antichrist. It may well be that you will get you wish and the pagan Theosophist beliefs may become the religion of the Secular/atheists who would seek to offer it as a universal religion that would promote harmony and peace of all nations and peoples. And would your kind have the gall to reintroduce pagan practices on a wing of the temple in Jerusalem to represent the universal pagan religion of the Antichrist?
As to Duke,
I would encourage you to come into the light so that we can see that what you do is approved of God. Instead, you merely specialize in offering criticism and act as if you know something about Christianity. It would help to see if you are even willing to confess “Jesus is Lord”. As it is right now, you have a credibility gap that would probably get larger once we begin to find out some of your core beliefs. So far all that you have proven is that you know how to read.
October 16th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
Psalms 146:1 - Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord, O my soul!
Psalms 148:1 - Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the sky! Praise him in the heavens!
Psalms 149:1 - Praise the Lord! Sing to the Lord a new song! Praise him in the assembly of the godly!
The Hebrew icons: Elohim is the regular plural of Eloah, which deconstructs to the radical {El}, the icon for God as in El Shadai {God Almighty, from Genesis 17:1 - When Abram was 99 years old; the Lord appeared to him and said, “I am the sovereign God {Theos}. Walk before me and be blameless}, and the radical for aspirated breath {ah}.
Thus Eloah is {God + breath}, and Elohim is {God + breath} + {God + breath} an undetermined number of times.
But the number of times is disclosed in YHWH, which deconstructs to the radical {YH} and {WH}, with {YH} or Yah used in the natural position and YHWH seen in the spiritual position in the thought-couplets of Psalms 146:1, 148:1 and 149:1.
So the multiple was two in the beginning, with these two being the Logos and the God, both being God and having the form of God and having none higher, with these two functioning as one deity in heaven as a man and his wife are one flesh in this world.
David was a man after God’s own heart, and his later Psalms reveal the fact that David knew there was a Father and a Son.
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, Theos and Theon and their respective Breaths
October 16th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Nobeleday,
God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. If we do not have love, we have nothing.
I’ve banned you from posting on this site any further. Over the years, you have been consistently condescending and extremely arrogant to virtually everyone and anyone that visits this site. I very rarely ban anyone, but the one thing that does get folks banned here is an ongoing pattern of berating all others. Perhaps instead of coming here to belittle others, you can spend your time communing with the Lord so as to eventually show the fruit of the Spirit.
October 16th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
Thank you.
October 17th, 2009 at 7:41 am
Thanks brother
October 17th, 2009 at 7:51 am
JESUS IS LORD!
October 17th, 2009 at 8:29 am
He needed to go, very rude individual.
WOW, this turned into an ugly debate. Let’s all join together, pre or post doesn’t matter, all we know for sure is Jesus will return in all power and glory! If we have to go through the tribulation so be it. We all have a different calling, let’s do His will for us and stay together. We need to stand together now more than ever!!
Love you all!!
Brandon
October 17th, 2009 at 11:17 am
MItchell,
You came up with some interesting points. However, you forget that the Day of the Lord is primarily directed towards Israel, not the Church. The Church is exempted from the Day of the Lord, whether it occurs over a period of seven years, or a single day. Remember, the Church is not appointed to wrath (1 Thess. 1:10; 1 Thess. 5:9) which clearly is what the Day of the Lord is all about.
The Rapture is characterized in the New Testament as a “translation coming” (1 Corinthians 15:51- 52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) in which the Lord comes for His church, taking her to His Father’s House (John 14:3). However, at Christ’s Second Coming with His saints, He descends from heaven to set up His Messianic Kingdom on earth (Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:27-31). The differences between the two events are harmonized naturally by the “pre-trib” position, while a post-tribulation is not able to comfortably explain such differences.
I have some other problems with Post-tribulationism:
1) The post-tribulation view requires that the church be present during the 70th week of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27), even though it was absent from the first 69 weeks. This is in spite of the fact that Dan 9:24 indicates that all 70 weeks are for Israel. I believe the church must depart prior to the 70th week, before the final seven-year period.
2) The post-tribulation view denies the New Testament teaching of imminency–that Christ could come at any moment–since there are intervening events required in that view. I believe there are no signs that must precede the Rapture.
3) The post-tribulation view has difficulties with who will populate the Millennium if the Rapture and the Second Coming occur at essentially the same time. Since all believers will be translated at the Rapture and all unbelievers are judged, because no unrighteous shall be allowed to enter Christ’s Kingdom, then no one would be left in mortal bodies to start the population base for the Millennium.
4) Similarly, post-tribulationism is not able to explain the sheep and goats judgment after the Second Coming in Matthew 25:3- 46. Where would the believers in mortal bodies come from if they are raptured at the Second Coming? Who would be able to enter into Christ’s Kingdom?
5) The Bride of Christ, the church, is made ready to accompany Christ to earth (Revelation 19:7-8, 14) before the Second Coming, but how could this reasonably happen if part of the church is still on the earth awaiting the Second Coming? If the Rapture of the church takes place at the Second Coming, then how does the Bride (the church) also come with Christ at His Return?
While many competent scholars disagree about eschatology, most of their views come from their presuppositions about Scripture. The more literal a view, the more there is an adoption of a pre-millennial, pre-tribulation position.
And if you don’t see the errors of a post-tribulation, don’t worry about it. I’ll explain it to you on the way up! Incidentally, Enoch is a model. He was pre-flood, not mid-flood or post-flood!
October 17th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
Also, if you believe that Israel and the Church are synonymous, why does Paul pray that Israel be saved? (Rom. 10:1) Why did Paul say that Israel has experienced a hardening of heart untl the complete number of Gentiles comes to Christ? (Rom. 11:25)
How about if we replace the word “Israel” with “Church” in some passages of Romans 11 and see if it still make sense?
“I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am a CHURCH MEMBER myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against THE CHURCH: “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
What then? What THE CHURCH sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day.”
And David says:
“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.” (THIS IS ABOUT THE CHURCH???)
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make THE CHURCH envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
….I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: THE CHURCH has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all THE CHURCH will be saved, as it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
THESE PASSAGES (AND MANY OTHER PASSAGES THAT MENTION ISRAEL IN RELATION TO THE CHURCH) DO NOT MAKE ANY SENSE UNLESS THERE IS A DISTINCTION BETWEEN ISRAEL AND THE CHURCH.
October 17th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
Hi JackC, many of your points are already answered previously. Part of the problem that I am seeing is due to the unbiblical position that separates the Church into some parenthetical program, making it completely distinct from Israel. Pre-tribulationism is completely dependent upon that doctrine. But, as Gentile believers in Messiah we are now a part of the commonwealth of Israel. We are fellowcitizens with Israel. WE HAVE BECOME A PART OF JACOB and are grafted in, that is to say, we have been added to the Church that was already existing during the days of the Old Testament. I would encourage you to study up on the serious problems with classical dispensationalism and take a prayerful look at progressive dispensationalism instead. This should help to clear up some of the confusion.
http://www.pfrs.org/pd/001.html
http://www.pfrs.org/pd/002.html
Regarding imminency, please watch the following to learn about the theological and textual problems associated with the doctrine of imminency as it is taught be pre-tribulationism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4qbKoJVTVQ
As for the separation of the sheep and goats, this is for NATIONS only, and not individuals, and there are those who believe that this separation does not happen until after the Millennium. Regarding who will populate the Millennium, Scripture already gives us the answer. Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcMXU5nwkzw
JackC asks, “If the Rapture of the church takes place at the Second Coming, then how does the Bride (the church) also come with Christ at His Return?”
We meet Christ in the air. The word used for “meet” in I Thessalonians 4:17 is the Greek word “apantesis”, and this word only occurs here and in three other places. In Matthew 25:1,6 it describes the virgins going out to meet the bridegroom, to ESCORT HIM BACK into the house. In Acts 28:14-16 it is used to describe brethren from Rome coming out to Appii Foru, to meet Paul and his company, and then ESCORT THEM BACK to Rome. Aside from 1 Thess 4:17 these are the only occurrences of the word. In the post-trib view, the elect are gathered in the air to meet Jesus and then we accompany Him back to Earth. This is consistent with the usage of “apantesis” in each of the other three verses of Scripture. The pre-trib position, however, suddenly changes the intended meaning of the word. Instead of us escorting Jesus back to Earth for His Second Coming, pre-tribism has us conveniently (incorrectly) going to Heaven instead.
As for Enoch, why do many of us assume that Enoch was “raptured”? And where do we read that “Enoch is a model” of a pre-trib rapture? We know that according to John 3:13, “No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven … the Son of Man.” So how could Enoch have gone up when John says that only Christ ascended up to Heaven? The answer is, Enoch didn’t. Scripture simply tells us in Gen 5:24 that Enoch walked with God “and he was not; for God took him.” If I tell you that God took my grandfather, I am sure you wouldn’t assume that God “raptured” him, but rather that he simply died. God “took” Enoch before his time. He was only 365 years old, which was pretty young considering the life span of Enoch’s son Methuselah.
You might want to point out Hebrews 11:5, which states, “By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.” But note that the word for “death” here in the Greek is “thanatos” and it does not always refer to physical death. But we know Enoch did die physically, because even here after discussing these great men of faith Scripture clearly states in Hebrews 11:13 that “These ALL DIED in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.” They all died, and that includes Enoch.
Even IF I am wrong on this point, there is no reason for us to assume that Enoch is a picture of a pre-trib rapture before God’s wrath. The only wrath that we as believers are promised deliverance from is the “orge” of God.
Here are all the verses that we would use to support a pre-trib rapture:
1 Thess 1:10, “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”
1 Thess 5:9, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ”
Romans 5:9, “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”
Eph 5:6, “Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.”
Now, let us exegete the text to see what we discover in the Greek:
1 Thess 1:10, — The wrath that we will be delivered from is the Greek “orge” (G3709).
1 Thess 5:9, — The wrath that we are not appointed to is the Greek “orge” (G3709).
Romans 5:9, — The wrath that we are saved from is the Greek “orge” (G3709).
Eph 5:6, — The wrath upon those who are disobedient is the Greek “orge” (G3709).
The word “wrath” is found 13 times in Revelation from the Greek word “thymos” and “orge”, but the “orge” of God that we are promised to be saved from is only found six times. Each time “orge” is used it is in a post-trib context:
1 and 2. It is mentioned AFTER the cosmic signs and the revealing of Christ Jesus (Rev 6:16-17). Jesus tells us in no uncertain terms that these signs happen immediately AFTER the tribulation (Matt 24:29). (Remember the Semitic styling of Revelation. The seven seals are a general overview of the tribulation from start to finish).
3. It is found AFTER the SEVENTH trumpet (Rev 11:18).
4. It is used to describe the final torment of unbelievers in hell (Rev 14:10).
5. It is found AFTER the SEVENTH bowl (Rev 16:19).
6. It is used in connection with Christ’s Second Coming (Rev 19:15).
Therefore, even if the rapture does not happen until after the tribulation, we are still saved from the “orge” of God as promised. Likewise, if we want to say that Enoch is representative of the rapture, it would be just as fitting for a post-trib rapture as well that takes place just before God’s Divine Vengeance.
Everything I read in Scripture points to and supports a post-trib rapture when the text is read in context, and we take meaning out of the text instead of superimposing our presuppositions into Scripture.
October 17th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
JackC, there is a difference between national Israel, and spiritual Israel that includes believing Gentiles. Paul refers to both in Romans 11, and then states that when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in that ALL Israel will be saved (referring to both national and spiritual Israel). Christ is our Deliverer referred to in 11:26.
October 17th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Hope you guys don’t mind if I join in.
Years ago I parted from the “Left Behind” scenario because of issues that cropped up when applying the progressive revelation of these verses to the Revelation itself. Though I am open to all input and do not consider myself an expert (nobody agrees on this anyway), there seems to be only one point in the Revelation where all of the rapture conditions provided by Paul come to fruition.
When Paul taught of our gathering in 1 Corinthians 15, he called this rapture a “mystery”, and that our translation would occur at “the last trumpet”, where then “dead will be raised” and those remaining alive would be “changed”. Then, in 1Thessalonians 4, he expanded on these requirements, stating that Christ would “come down from heaven”, with a “loud command”, and with the “voice of the archangel”, and also the “trumpet call of God”. Then, the “dead in christ” would rise. So, in all, we have this partial list of requirements;
1) For the Lord himself will come down from heaven
2) with a loud command
3) with the voice of the archangel
4) with the trumpet call of God
5) the dead in Christ will rise first
6) and we will be changed
7)) Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed
Since the Bible is built on progressive revelation, these events should logically be fulfilled somewhere in the Revelation. And they are…..but only in one place, and it is not pre-trib, or post-trib, in the typical sense that one would imagine. So let’s read that one place, with the clues written in parentheses;
Rev 10:1 Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven ( “FOR THE LORD HIMSELF WILL COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN” ). He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars (THESE THINGS IDENTIFY HIM AS CHRIST). 2 He was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand. He planted his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land, 3 and he gave a loud shout like the roar of a lion ( “WITH A LOUD COMMAND” ). When he shouted, the voices of the seven thunders spoke. 4 And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven ( “WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL” ) say, “Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down.” 5 Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. 6 And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! 7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet ( “WITH THE TRUMPET CALL OF GOD“ ), the mystery of God will be accomplished ( “LISTEN, I TELL YOU A MYSTERY: WE WILL NOT ALL SLEEP, BUT WE WILL ALL BE CHANGED” ), just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”
Of course, immediately after this paragraph, this account transitions into the ‘Two Witnesses’, which describes how they are killed and then raised from the dead ( “THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST” ). I can only conclude that this is the raising of the dead that has been described, and it’s no coincidence that this event is placed right between the 6th and 7th trumpets, because the “last trumpet” seems to be the 7th trumpet. After all, the Revelation states;
“But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished.”
I have to conclude that this gathering can only occur between the 6th and 7th trumpet, and this makes an incredible amount of sense when we factor in that the 5th and 6th trumpets will bring demonic activity on the world that will be part of the ‘wrath’ that we are presumably saved from. The letter to the church at Smyrna stated that the church would “suffer persecution for ten days”, and this ‘ten days’ could very likely be the 10-day interval between the beginning of the Feast of Trumpets (coincidence?) and the Day of Atonement. It seems that everything in the last days is built around the Festivals, so this makes some sense.
I don’t consider myself an ‘expert’ on this topic, but I use progressive revelation in virtually all that I do, and I can’t find this dynamic displayed anywhere else in the Revelation. I have several other thoughts on this, but this post is already too long.
Just food for thought.
October 17th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
Michael,
That’s interesting, I’m not that familiar with the feasts and festivals, do you have a link where I could read up on them?
I don’t see the comparison between the resurrection of the two witnesses and the first resurrection though. To me it seems like a special circumstance. “And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.”
October 18th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
ignobleuse;
I don’t have one particular site to recommend regarding the Festivals, since I‘ve accumulated data from dozens of websites and books over the years. Wish I could be of more help there. But you can google ’Jewish Festivals’ and you’ll have a mountain of data at your disposal.
All I would say is that virtually everything that will happen in the last days will occur within the framework of the festival calendar. For instance, in Daniel the 1,290 days, the 1,335 days, and the 2,300 evenings and mornings (days) all represent precise intervals between specific festivals that occur during certain cycles in the variable Jewish calendar. Also, the 1,260 days that the two witnesses testify, plus the 3½ days that they will lay dead in the street, are also represented in a festival interval. And then there was the 10-day interval mentioned in my prior post. None of these are mere coincidence, since Christ first and second advents were/are both represented in the festivals. In a fascinating coincidence (?), these intervals all come together nicely in a cycle that begins in 2011 and ends in 2021, and are also represented by a sequence in the Psalms. But it would conceivably repeat itself in other future cycles as well.
The raising of the two witnesses and the ‘first resurrection’ are probably not one and the same, just as you said. This of course is part of the whole rapture debate, where some view the seals/trumpets/bowls as sequential and others view them as parallel events. I tend to see them as sequential, but not in the way that most others would see them. But either way, we see that the time of the raising of the two witnesses, as described by Paul, fits perfectly into this portion of the Revelation. In fact, it fits nowhere else. I think we have to just let the chips fall where they may, and then try to understand why they fall there.
My take; one possible solution would be to separate the New Testament “dead in Christ” from the Old Testament dead, who one could argue were not “in Christ” per se, since Christ had not yet come as the Messiah. In this way, the “dead in Christ” could be raised at this midpoint, and the saints who are ‘still alive and remain’ would be ‘changed’ at that time in order to endure the great tribulation. Then, as Paul taught, we would later meet them in the air upon Christ’s final return when the Old Testament dead are raised (at the end of the 1,335 days) to meet the Lord in the air. This would suggest two potential harvests. This may be alluded to by Christ’s own words in Luke 17:22, where He said “one of the days of the Son of Man…”, suggesting that His presence will be felt on more than just one solitary “Day of the Lord”.
I know this is a highly minority opinion that may prove to be incorrect, but it does provide an answer to why Paul said we who are still alive “will not precede” the dead in Christ that would be raised first. Perhaps I will become convinced that this is untenable after more cross-referencing, but I’m intrigued by the idea just the same since it does explain why the ‘first resurrection’ could be so far removed from this seeming fulfillment in the Revelation. I know there are other notions out there that attempt to explain that by re-cycling the seals, trumpets, and bowls, but that has never rung true to me. Then again, this may not end up ringing true to me either, after all is said.
Just an idea bro. Just an idea.
October 18th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
It’s all good man, I’m listening. I think I should read up on the feasts! A problem you might have with separating old testament saints and new testament is Hebrews 11 specifically verse 26 talking about Moses :
26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward.
I believe everyone in history is saved the same way, by faith by grace; them looking forward, and us looking back to Christ. So I guess I don’t see any separation there either.
October 18th, 2009 at 9:34 pm
ignobleuse,
Yes, that’s a good point, and I imagine it is only one of several potential references that could shoot holes in this idea. Normally when I pursue new ideas I try to first find all of the points of support, and once the idea is fleshed out, then I try to defeat it. As I’ve admitted above, I haven’t made the time to pursue this one very far. It may indeed by untenable, which if true, still leaves the dilemma of why Paul’s clues fall into that portion of the Revelation, while the “1,335 days” of Daniel seem to loom over 3 1/2 years later.
Anyway, thanks for the assist!
October 19th, 2009 at 11:06 am
Michael (K.)
Could you explain where you got the information that
“since Christ first and second advents were/are both represented in the festivals. In a fascinating coincidence (?), these intervals all come together nicely in a cycle that begins in 2011 and ends in 2021,”
I have seen 2008, 2009, and 2015 but never 2011-2021.
Thanks
October 19th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
Lorgan,
I almost didn’t bother to check back this far on this one, but I’ll have the info in a few minutes, and I’ll post again. I’ve had to cull it from some other things I’ve written. Bear with me here.
Mike
October 19th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
Lorgan,
I can’t blame this model on anyone else because I hatched it by picking up ideas here and there. It’s one of those things that you’re sometimes reluctant to trot out, because it could turn out to be wrong. I’d hate to mislead anyone. Still, there are so many things that work within this model that I continue to entertain it. It suggests that the 70th could run from 2011 to 2018, and that the Temple could be reconsecrated in 2021. Please remember I’m saying ‘could’.
Years ago I learned from a Jewish site that during certain cycles in the Jewish festival calendar, there are precisely 1,290 days between the Feast of Trumpets and the end of the Feast of Unleavened Bread 3½ years later. Also, during this same cycle, there are 1,335 days between this same Feast of Trumpets and Pentecost. Finally, during certain cycles there are 2,300 days between Pentecost and the Feast of Trumpets almost 7 years later.
Of course, the Revelation also describes the 1,260 days that the two witnesses will prophesy, along with an additional 3½ days that they would lie dead in the street. This would total 1,264 days in all. So, in certain cycles I noted there are 1,264 days between Passover in one year and the Day of Atonement 3½ years later.
Everything else I had ever read about the end times had ignored these festival intervals and their significance, but since the Christ’s first advent fulfilled the spring festivals and His second advent will fulfill the fall festivals, it seemed to me that they should instead be paramount to our understanding. In fact, it is a requirement in Daniel’s visions that His return would be reflected in a future cycle where these things come together in some meaningful way.
Since the Jewish calendar is lunar-based and can have 353, 354, or 355 days in it, or 383, 384 or 385 days during a leap year, I initially assumed that it would be difficult to find such a cycle. I was wrong. Just such a cycle occurs from the 1st of Nisan, or April 5, 2011 and runs to the Feast of Trumpets in 2021. I found that to be very curious. But here is how it lays out, if I’ve done the math correctly on the Jewish calendar;
From Passover in 2011 to the Day of Atonement in 2014, there are 1,264 days. This could potentially be the time of the two witnesses, assuming that they prophesy during the first half of the 70th. From the Feast of Trumpets in 2014 (the midpoint) to the end of Unleavened Bread in 2018, there are 1,290 days (Daniel 12:11). From the Feast of Trumpets in 2014 to Pentecost in 2018, there are 1,335 days (Daniel 12:12-13). From Pentecost in 2015 to the Feast of Trumpets in 2021, there are 2,300 days (Daniel 8:14 ). The agreement of these figures in this cycle could feasibly represent the dates laid out in Daniel, and could conceivably represent the ‘70th seven’ and beyond, particularly since those festival dates tend to support the events that we would expect to occur there.
More to follow…..
October 19th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
Lorgan (….continued),
Well, if you’ve had time to digest the last post, and haven’t yet deduced that I’m out of my mind, then consider this additional supporting evidence for a potential 2011 to 2018 ‘70th’;
If you are familiar with Mark Blitz’s work on the celestial signs that will peak on festival dates in 2014 and 2015, notice their ramifications within this model. The solar eclipses and tetrad of blood-red moons in 2014 and 2015 would suggest that Israel will be at war by then, if history is any guide. Given this probability, and given that Israel will have to “flee to the mountains” at the midpoint of the 70th, is it any surprise that we would find these signs right here? Given the structure of Daniel’s 70th, the midpoint is right where we should expect to find them.
Regarding 2018 as a potential year for Armageddon, Psalm 90 is also highly suggestive, depending on one’s point of view. When Moses wrote “The length of our days is seventy years - or eighty, if we have the strength”, we tend to think of the lifespan of an individual. But what if Moses was prophesying about Israel’s national lifespan, from the time they came back into the land in 1948 until the time of their final exile? After all, people continue to live far longer than 70 or 80 years even today, so I‘m not persuaded that this speaks to personal longevity at all. But if this is indeed a national prophecy, then 1948 + 70 = 2018, and we have another direct hit on 2018 for a potential Armageddon. But 1948 + 80 = 2028, and 2028 is the likely fulfillment of the 40th Jubilee since Christ‘s first advent (2028 A.D. - 28 A.D. = 2,000 years / 50 = 40 Jubilees), assuming that Christ gave His Jubilee sermon in 28 A.D. (Luke 4:17-21) as many historians suspect. This psalm would seem to apply a direct hit on these two highly significant numbers.
Maybe this is just coincidence, but the possibility that the great tribulation is reflected in this Psalm becomes a little more real when we consider that Moses speaks of their days passing away “under your wrath” (God’s wrath), which will indeed happen in the last days as God winnows them. He also states that “their span is but trouble and sorrow” (the time of Jacob’s trouble?). This would certainly describe Israel’s plight in recent decades, as well as that of the last days. Also, when the passage states “we fly away”, that seems to conjure up an image of a post-trib rapture. Maybe that’s reaching, but it does fit.
More to follow…….
October 19th, 2009 at 10:38 pm
Lorgan (….continued),
If you still haven’t run screaming from the room, there is one more thing that I find fascinating within this potential time frame. It’s a Psalm progression, from Psalm 11 to Psalm 21.
Years ago J.R. Church of “Prophecy in the News” wrote an article detailing how a particular numeric progression of Psalms described events in the corresponding years of WWII. I applied that idea to this time frame from 2011 to 2018, and was surprised to find that Psalms 11 through 18 seemed to reflect conditions that we might expect to see if the 70th of Daniel actually occurred during those years. This was particularly compelling when reading Psalm 18, which reads like Armageddon. But also notice that Psalm 19 is the only Psalm that mentions a “bridegroom“ (wedding supper?).
You can read these for yourself and decide whether or not you agree, but some highlights include Psalm 11 (2011), which states “the wicked bend their bows” (1st seal ’bow’?), and that they “shoot from the shadows”, which is what Hamas has been doing with rockets from Gaza since 2005. Psalm 13 (2013) would be just before the midpoint, and fittingly states “my foes will rejoice when I fall”. Then, Psalm 14 (2014) seems to reflect this very fall when it speaks of evildoers who “devour my people”, suggesting that Israel is now being desolated. But it also states that the wicked are “overwhelmed with dread“ (which happens when the two witnesses are raised), and also “for God is in the company of the righteous” (those fleeing to their desert protection?). Psalm 17 (2017) then suggests that Israel is “hidden in your wings” (place prepared for them in the desert?), but that “they have tracked me down, they now surround me”. This would be near the end of their 3 1/2 years in the desert, so to preserve Israel, Psalm 18 (2018) then describes what can seemingly only be Armageddon, where God “parted the heavens and came down” and “scattered the enemies” and so on. The end of this Psalm then speaks of conditions that apply to the beginning of the Millennium, where it says things like “I pursued my enemies and overtook them”, and “people I do not know are subject to me.”
But the most curious thing about this progression, at least to me, is that Psalm 21 (2021) speaks of “the king” which I assume to be Jesus, and that “at the time of your appearing, you will make them like a fiery furnace” (‘Rider on the White Horse’?). I would not normally think of a 2021 return of Christ on the white horse if Armageddon were in 2018, however one can make a case that the Revelation is laid out that way, if we assume it is a linear progression. And if the wedding supper does begin in 2019, well. Could be. The Psalm progression seems to support that notion, though it’s certainly possible that it’s not an intended progression at all. If not, what irony that it fits so well in so many places.
Anyway, that is the gist of it Lorgan. Right, wrong, or incredibly deluded, it’s been a very interesting thread to follow and develop. And even if these particular years are the ‘wrong place at the wrong time’, it seems to me that whenever the 70th truly does unfold, it will at least have these same festival intervals as components. Daniel’s visions seem to require it.
Some day I’d like to have someone who is more familiar with the festivals really dig into these dates and intervals to make sure they line up as I have them laid out. I’m relying on a Jewish calendar created by a synagogue in California, and a brain that is far too often sleep-deprived. Oh well. Take care.
Mike
October 20th, 2009 at 11:46 am
Thank you.
I will say of all the arguments you have outlined, I have the most reservations about the psalms order having significance to matching the days. It seems a trifle too secretive, especially if that significance is not pointed to in other scripture.
What I did find of extreme interest however, was this.
“and 2028 is the likely fulfillment of the 40th Jubilee since Christ‘s first advent (2028 A.D. - 28 A.D. = 2,000 years / 50 = 40 Jubilees), assuming that Christ gave His Jubilee sermon in 28 A.D.”
I have often wondered about the “after” of the Day of the Lord, and the occasional hint and the specifics of it.
Ezekiel 39, after the battle of Gog/Magog (Armagedon), details the following.
9 ‘Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up—the small and large shields, the bows and arrows, the war clubs and spears. For seven years they will use them for fuel.
10 They will not need to gather wood from the fields or cut it from the forests, because they will use the weapons for fuel. And they will plunder those who plundered them and loot those who looted them, declares the Sovereign LORD.
11 ” ‘On that day I will give Gog a burial place in Israel, in the valley of those who travel east toward the Sea. It will block the way of travelers, because Gog and all his hordes will be buried there. So it will be called the Valley of Hamon Gog.
12 ” ‘For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them in order to cleanse the land. 13 All the people of the land will bury them, and the day I am glorified will be a memorable day for them, declares the Sovereign LORD.
So here we have some very mundane activities for periods of 7 months and 7 years.
I have wondered about this time, and now perhaps the above points to the answer that the really big celebration or Jubilee occurs after the 7 year clean up starts.
Either that, or that the first 7 years after the return of Christ represents the marriage feast of the Lamb, where the resurrected believers celebrate, and the world mourns at the gate, wishing they were a part of it. During this they continue going about a mundane and average existence waiting for the bridegroom and bride to step out and begin the actual governing of the world during the 1000 year reign.
October 21st, 2009 at 3:35 pm
Take a step back and think about when the 70 weeks end. They end when all the statements of Daniel 9:24 are accomplished. A few are; finish transgression, end of sins, everlasting righteousness. Some have already been accomplished in my opinion such as a reconciliation for iniquity and anointing the most Holy……..The bottom line is that all this stuff ain’t accomplished until Satan is finally defeated at the end of the Millennial Reign. I figure 7 years is about right for Satan to deceive the nations into once again marching on Jerusalem.
October 21st, 2009 at 8:13 pm
Chris,
Interesting perspective. I suppose we can’t always assume that the timing of these things is a certainty. Still, I think the seventy ’sevens’ will be fulfilled upon Christ’s return, because they are targeted at Israel only, rather than Satan and the world;
“Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for YOUR people and YOUR holy city…….”
It seems to me that this ‘punch-list’ will be accomplished when Christ returns, because Israel will no longer fall short of that list when he is living among them. The remaining world will still rebel according to certain passages of scripture, but it seems that Israel will then be righteous.
Now if you’re saying that Gog & Magog belongs at the end of the Millennium, I’m already there with you. And for whatever it’s worth, 7 years could be a reasonable time for Satan to rally his troops, because this 7-year interval is so prevelant in scripture. I just don’t personally see that time frame as part of the ’sevens’ of Daniel.
But I’ve been wrong before and I’ll be wrong again.
October 22nd, 2009 at 1:16 pm
‘Lorgan and Michael
The time line you are looking for I see in Ezekiel 38 itself. The nations mentioned regardless what the debate is to exactly which nation is which. We agree that it will be nations North of Israel and will include Persia, Cush (Ethiopia / Sudan) Put (Libya) all of them banishing their swords against Israel all presently allied with Russia and Turkey as well simply because they are Islamic. Verses 1 to 7 gives us all of those allied with Magog. It will be at a time when Israel has been gathered from many nations. Today Israel has been gathered from more than 125 nations as of to date since 1948. The biggest clue to the fact that the Magog war will happen before the 1000 year reign is verse 22 from that day forward Israel and the nations would know the Lord their God. It is not possible to have 1000 years of Sabbath rest without Israel and the nations knowing Christ and living under his rule. So this eliminates the after or at the end of 1000 years.
Ezek 37 and 38 also tells us that Israel would be two sticks joined into one which is Israel today (one nation) not two as it was back in BC. Additionally this Magog war would take place right after the vision of the Valley of dry bones is fulfilled. Against the grain here a bit as today’s churches claim this pertains to them which is completely untrue but I am convinced that this is a picture of what happened under Nazi rule. Search the net for photos of what toke place during and in the concentration camps. The picture of these camps describes to a tee the Valley of Dry Rattling Bones we read about in 37 with the Jew being forced back to fulfill his purpose by God. This is worth noting here as well. The war ended Sept 1945 when the Jew was released from the camps. 2520 biblical year = 2484 solar years minus 1945 brings us back to 539 BC. This is the same year that Babylon was destroyed by Persia and the Jews released by Darius shortly thereafter. Is our God not amazing?? He will not leave us without a witness to his name.
There are also details of a very large earth quake that will take place in the land and destroy these Magog armies. I spent 25 years drilling for oil in the Middle East throughout the Gulf region. Knowing a bit of the geology in this part of the world and knowing that hundreds of billions of barrels of oil have been bled off of these formations throughout the entire Middle East beginning in the 1940s continuing on today. I can clearly see where God is setting a trap for these Islamic nations because of their oil God.
The day will soon come when so much pressure has been released from these underground formations due to the production process that a major earthquake will be the result of oil production. This entire region the entire Arabian Plate will collapse and shift drastically.
Just outside of Kuwait there is a 30 to 40 foot cliff close to the Iraq border where the earth has dropped on the Arabian Plate side in history straight down. The cliff is there for all to see maybe this was the earth quake of Uzziah day?? This earth quake will be larger than the one that came in the days of Uzziah, larger that the Boxing Day one in Indoneasia.
The whole Arabian plate is floating almost on oil where Saudi, Iraq, Qatar, UAE, Kuwait and other countries sit and Iran on the other side of the fault line depleting formation pressures as well. This plate is being forced under the Himalayan mountains right from the Great Rift Fault line beginning in Turkey going through Lebanon, Syria and Israel right down into Southern Africa through the middle of the Red Sea were it is spreading because the interior of the earth is trying to explode upward along this fault pushing the Arabian Plate and forcing it under the mountains. Some day when enough pressure is bleed off or released from these deep formations due to the production of oil in the name of the oil God of the world it will likely result in a very large slippage resulting in many of these formations being re-pressurized with unknown results. I expected it to happen during the Kuwait fires but it did not. Again I see the days of Noah in this earth quake.
The fact that these very oil sands and oil fields were laid down due to the vegetation and animal life being buried deeply during flood of Noah’s day. As Christ warned as it was in the days of Noah. The vegetation buried creating the oils, gas and coal from Noah’s world is where our oil and gas comes from today. Qatar and Iran have the worls largest gas reserves which over lay the fault line running down the Arabian or Persian Gulf.
I bring this up as I think I am on the right track here that it also fits into a time line for these last days which will destroy Magog in the sense that the flood buried Noah’s world and today we are burning his world as a fossil fuel which will cause the largest earth quake the world has ever seen, literally destroying the mountains the bible says. Sorry for being a bit long winded but no other way to get the message out on this one.
October 22nd, 2009 at 5:53 pm
Willard,
That’s an interesting observation regarding the 2,520 biblical year difference between 1945 and 539 B.C. There are many similar illustrations in the Bible where patterns repeat themselves, and it seems that this number is one of them. I alluded to some of this is one of my replies that got ejected due to the server snafu. Oh well. At least I had a chance to read yours before they vanished. I enjoyed your ideas regarding the Jubilees and the possible time elements involved. I’ve done many of those same studies, so it was fun to read. If you saved them somewhere, they would be worth posting again. You had a couple of ideas I hadn’t thought of.
On another note, the time line of Gog & Magog is still far from certain. I remain convinced that the best context is post-millennial, as in Revelation 20:8, but we had some really extensive debate on this back in December 2008 and January 2009. It’s too much effort to re-trace all those steps, but you can archive it here; http://www.joelstrumpet.com/?p=1651#comments
Part of the conversation included the very thing you mentioned regarding “then they will know”. But I don’t see this statement serving as a ‘primer’ that dictates the beginning of the Millennial Age. The fact is, this phrase was used on numerous occasions by God in Old Testament times, and 54 times in Ezekiel alone, and still, Israel rebelled against God. If this statement were intended to define the moment that Israel would hearken to God once and for all, then it should have happened long ago according to these many examples.
The archived thread on ‘Gog’, if you care to read it in it’s entirety, explains why I believe that Ezekiel’s ordering also places this battle after the end of the Millennium, and this includes comments on the ‘dry bones, and also the progressive nature of Ezekiel‘s chapters. But I just don’t have the patience to go back down that road again Willard, because I’ve had that debate so many times and I’ve grown a little weary over it, to be truthful. It’s sort of like the rapture debate. Once you’ve done it enough times, you don’t do it unless something different or new emerges.
But I love your spin on the numbers behind history. Have you read E.W. Bullinger’s “Number in Scripture”? If not, it’s right up your alley.
October 22nd, 2009 at 6:34 pm
Michael - The first time I heard of this guy Bullinger is from the last several postings here. I just began reading the book Prophecy Code II and Jeff Manty who writes on the 2520 refered to him as well. I will have to look for it or order it.
October 22nd, 2009 at 9:04 pm
Willard: good stuff! Thanks for sharing. That thing about the oil and the earthquake makes a lot of sense. I hadn’t thought of that before.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:33 pm
For fairness and balance, Google “Famous Rapture Watchers - Addendum,” “Pretrib Rapture Diehards,” “X-Raying Margaret,” “Scholars Weigh My Research,” “Deceiving and Being Deceived” by D.M., “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Pretrib Rapture - Hidden Facts,” and “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty.” If you are tired of sloppy and twisted versions of pretrib rapture history by hirelings who are paid to defend pretrib any way they can get away with, read the above with an open mind. Even LaHaye, Lindsey, and Ice cannot find any official Christian theology, or any organized church, before 1830 that taught the pretrib view! Bob
November 21st, 2009 at 1:57 pm
According to the grace of God
To Michael and others, know that Christ Jesus shall return in 2018. Herein are the timelines unto the end; http://theelects.org
I do pray that you shall visit that site for more insights and inspiration.
Grace be with you all.