On the death of Gog / the Antichrist
Throughout the Body of Christ, or more specifically that portion of the Body of Christ that pays attention to Biblical Prophecy, there is a question about whether or not “Gog” of Ezekiel 38,39 and the Antichrist are one and the same. One of the issues that some point to in order to claim that Gog and the Antichrist cannot be one and the same is the issue of the death of Gog, versus the death of the Antichrist. According to Ezekiel, Gog will be buried, whereas in the Book of Revelation, the Antichrist is said to be “thrown alive into hell”. Thus, it is argued that the two cannot be the same entity. I want to briefly explain the flaw in this argument.
First, one needs to at least try to define what being thrown alive in hell means exactly. Is the soul alive? Is the actual body also alive? How can a body be thrown alive into hell? Could it be like Korah’s rebellion?
And the earth opened her mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. - Numbers 16:32
Will the earth also open up and swallow the Antichrist? The fact of the matter is that those who argue that Gog cannot be the Antichrist never answer these questions regarding exactly what it means to be “thrown alive into hell.
The second problem exists in the lack of considering the fuller context of all of the relevant passages that speak about the death of the Antichrist. If we value the full counsel of Scripture on this issue, (as opposed to one random Scripture pulled out of context) then we will see that the Antichrist is in fact killed - just like Gog. Lets look at the evidence.
Paul tells us in Thessalonians that the AC will be slain by the brightness of the coming of Christ:
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8 (KJV)
And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8 (NASB)
Daniel tells us that the Antichrist will be destroyed and his body thrown into hell:
I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. Daniel 7:11 (KJV)
Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. Daniel 7:11 (NASB)
And so after looking at ALL of the relevant Scriptures on this issue, we are left with some questions yes, but our seeming contradiction has been resolved. The claim that Gog cannot be Antichrist because Gog is killed whereas the Antichrist is not killed is seen to be inaccurate and simply the result of inadequate study.
For further reading, here are some notes that I put together that discuss why Gog and Antichrist are one and the same.
And here is a link to Dave Hunt’s website where he explains why he believes that Gog and the Antichrist are one and the same.
September 12th, 2009 at 9:03 am
Joel. I have felt these passages are relevant to this…
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, [and] consider thee, [saying, Is] this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:17 [That] made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; [that] opened not the house of his prisoners?
Isa 14:18 All the kings of the nations, [even] all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
Isa 14:19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, [and as] the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
What do you think ?
God Bless You
David
September 12th, 2009 at 10:13 am
A body was prepared for the IMAGE of GOD (Hebrews 10:9a)
and was killed for the sin of HIS people (Isaiah 53) and a body has
been prepared for the image of satan and will be didstroded at the coming of CHRIST!!!!!!!!
September 12th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Joel you said how can a body be thrown in hell alive ? I dont know really but I do know if God can take Enoch , Elijah , and Jesus in the flesh up to Heaven then I can only believe he can do this putting someone in hell as well if we believe he can somehow have there bodies some how able to be in heaven then why could he not do the same in Hell ?
Im just saying .
RasulJacob
September 12th, 2009 at 10:37 am
read your stuff and seen the dvd’s and ive seen dave hunt You guys have amazing points to your belief.
Rasuljacob
September 12th, 2009 at 10:54 am
Joel you and dave hunt have some amazing points , and yet he believes the rapture happens before gog magog and he wont say russia is the main country, so what country doe he believe is the head of this war ? he says the nations are gonna come from all over the world ( which is true in the revelation 20 sense . so this could be as well I can see hugo and other nations getting involved in helping destroy israel as well as other nations attacking us and europe since they know we would try and help israel .
what do you think ?
also if antichrist is ruling in jerusalem why would he be going north just to be brought down to attack israel again ? it says God puts a hook in his mouth and well kinda drags him ? I thought the antichrist stands his ground and is scared at the end news from the north , east and in isaiah it says that the king of babylon ( antichrist is scared at the coming doom ) this is strange can you explain please ? antichrist seems like a tough guy then is like a scared little sissy, where besides ezekiel 38 39 does it say the antichrist leaves israel then returns ? where does it say the antichrist has to be forced to attack israel God hooks gog ?
I cant find it anywhere else in the bible ? and you have told me not to just take one scripture like I do with thinking about russia.
Im serious and I mean well im trying to find where besides ezekiel 38 and 39 where else does it talk about antichrist fleeing out of israel to then again return being hooked by God to go back and get destroyed ?
thanks and please anyone else help with this I am just trying to clear up some last details that have bothered me and maybe other christians that are close to believing gog magog is armageddon but still have a few objections is one is a big one .
thanks God bless .
Rasuljacob
September 12th, 2009 at 11:02 am
Isaiah has got his own descripton on Harmageddon, it is told in Is.30:27-33. There is also told the place, where AC will be buried:
“Long ago Tophet was made ready, made deep and broad.
its fire pit a blazing mass of logs and the breath of the Lord like a stream of brimstone blazing in it”. (Is.30:33) (NEB)
Tophet was the place in the valley of Hinnom, where jews burned there
children for Molock.
In KJB it is: “For Tophet is ordained of old, yea, for a king it is prepared, he hath made it deep and large; the pile thereof is fire and much wood, the breath of the Lord, like a stream of bromstone, doth kindle it.”
September 12th, 2009 at 11:25 am
side note > I thought in micah 5 or 7 that the assyrian gets his land invaded ? the gates of nimrod ? isnt this in Iraq, and the land of magog isnt Iraq it doesnt cover that country right ? I wish Joel or dave hunt someone could answer some of these questions .
I believe it could serve to help christians working together just as there are 3 -5 things within the gog magog war that make most christians not believe its the same war I think I have after a longtime with this brought up two good points instead of rehashing what others have said .
Rasul
September 12th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Exit40,
Lets look at all of the various relevant passages concerning the death of the AC side by side. I will also include the death of Gog:
All in all, he have what might seem to be a few contradictions. This is true whether one agrees that Gog is the AC or not. Does the AC get thrown alive into hell, or is he destroyed, slain? Is he “cast out of the grave” or is he “cast into the pit”? Does he die as its seems to state in 2 Thess 2:13 and Daniel or does he remain alive? My approach in issues like this is the same as when in the Gospels when we know the events to be relaying the same story. In order to work through these things it is important to remember that in most of the passages there is often first a historical character that the propehts were speaking through to speak ultimately about the Antichrist. Nebuchadnezzar, Haman, Etc. Beyond this, the passages are also largely poetic / prophetic. We must be careful no to be overly rigid and demands that all passages conform to a strictly hyper-literal interpretation on every detail. The same rules apply to the numerous apparent contradictions in the Gospels. In the end, there is not real problem with Gog and the Antichrist being the same person based on a limited comparison of two passages that speak about their respective deaths. Its a position that has been widely held down throughout Church history until only recently. For whatever reason, I suppose because I am an outsider an a newcomer to the discussion, I am being singled out for this, but I have yet to see anyone go after Dave Hunt, Matthew Henry or Jamieson, Fausett & Brown etc. My position is not unique and certainly not new. Hope that this helped.
Blessings, Joel
September 12th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
Rasul,
After the Antichrist is slain, then Israel will rule the land of Nimrod. But not until atfre the return of Christ. See also Isaiah 60 and the end of Joel 3.
September 12th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
I just thought the text said when the assyrian invades your land then they would invade the assyrians land in micah 5 or 7 ? Joel it is strange that you seemed to be attacked more then they are I hope you dont think im attacking you as we go way back your one of the best at presenting your message now dont get a big ego now LOL . I have come to the conclusion after debates , going to see many prophetic teachers , watching programs , sitting in the pews , and listening to radio and read the bible that I may never 100 % be sure until it happens LOL , that said I have been moved from a strict european view of the antichrist kingdom to the antichrist kingdom being a mostly Islamic one , and I have moved from a pretribulation belief to a pan belief ( it will all pan out in the end theres no arguing it Ill be glad whenever he comes so Ill pray for him to come and watch for his coming in the sky , and teach my kids that he will come when its his time and until then we need to spread the message )
and now I have come as close as I can to being split on the gog magog being armageddon . so If its possible to move me even somewhat and Im hard Headed , stiffnecked ( must have Jewish blood somewhere )
September 12th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
hey im even up for pslams 83 happening all the way then heck the gog magog war ( which could be armageddon ) maybe after psalms 83 Israel can breath build the temple have a peace deal with Turkey or Iraq ect a 7year deal I mean the nations would want it bad and Israel would gain some ground then be pushed back later who knows theres so many things that could transpire hey maybe after psalms 83 the two witness would show up and build the temple ? or maybe you believe psalms 83 war is the past war or maybe you believe psalms 83 is the same as gog magog ?
let me hear your opinon as well on this .
rasul
September 12th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Rasul: Its Micah 5. But the ruling of the land of Nimrod does not happen until after the Messiah that was bron in Bethlehem delivers Israel from the Assyrian an his invasion:
Isaiah 60 also follows the return of Christ:
Who are the primary oppressors of Israel today?
And again, check out what it looks like after Armageddon in Joel 3:
All the prophets tell the same general story.
September 12th, 2009 at 8:13 pm
Remember Korah in the book of Num 26? Could we describe that Korah and those with him were “cast alive into the lake of fire”? Numbers 26:10, “And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up together with Korah, when that company died, what time the fire devoured two hundred and fifty men: and they became a sign.”
Num 16:33, “They, and all that [appertained] to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.”
So here the gound opened up and buried Korah alive into the pit of burning fire.
Is it not possible that what we are told regarding the destruction of Antichrist indicates that when Christ returns the brilliance of His coming and the power of His voice causes the ground to open up, where Antichrist is then cast into the fire and buried alive? As Dan 8:25 says, he is “broken without hand” or as the NKJV says, “without human means.”
And where would Antichrist be buried? According to Daniel 11:45, “between the seas and the glorious holy mountain” is where Antichrist comes to his end. In other words, in Israel. Ezekiel 39:11 says “On that day I will give Gog a burial place in Israel, in the valley of those who travel east toward the Sea. It will block the way of travelers, because Gog and all his hordes will be buried there. So it will be called the Valley of Hamon Gog”.
The burial places are the same. The valley of Megiddo is the place that Hamon gog will be, which is based on the valley of the passengers. This is an easy route for travel from the Mediterranean Sea to Jerusalem through the valley of Megiddo, which is where Armageddon will take place.
The Gog-Magog battle culminates at Armageddon, when Christ defeats Gog/Antichrist and buries him there in Israel at the Second Coming. Matthew Henry and Jamieson, Fausett, and Brown are correct after all.
September 13th, 2009 at 9:18 am
Hi Joel. I too believe gog/magog is the same as ac/armageddon. I have some confusion over the details, but that’s alright, I don’t have the need to know absolutely the finer details. I admit I get a little lost in the poetic language of the Scripture, and the explanation of the historical references. It will come to me in time.
Meanwhile, if this is of any help. I too have singled you out, to be one of my Teachers. When I first began study of Prophecy I ran into the RRE paradigm, and just knew instinctively, whatever, that it would be islam instead. My studies have led me here, and your books and this site have been a great source of learning. So just as a word of encouragement for you I say this. I am sure I am not the only one who feels this way. Keep it up Joel, and dig in your heels. The reward is out of this world.
So thanks, Teach. ( Apple on the way ! )
Dan 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, [many] days.
God Bless You Brother
David
September 13th, 2009 at 10:14 am
Thanks David. You’ve taught me lot as well. I always appreciate your thoughts and comments bro. Thanks for drinking the Kool-aid.
September 13th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
Daniel is very clear that it will be from the ancient rulers of Greece that the A/C will come out of not Magog - The off spring and DNA gene pool of Alexanders four generals or the four horns of Daniel out of amoungst them came the little horn the A/C - namely Seleucious who ruled out of Babylon upto the Indus River and the entire ancient countries of Assyria which included todays Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Turkmenistan and other countries for a total of ten nation and per the ten horns with crowns - of these ten nation he will at first take over three by force the three ribs in the mouth of the bear lying on its side (Persia) a though study of Daniel will clearly identify where the A/C comes out of - it is also true that Turkey certainly will be involved but Turkey is not the full power of Gog and Magog even though it very likely will be an allie of it -
Da 2:39 “After you, another kingdom will rise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:15 am
Gulp. I suppose the thing is for me, I am never completely sure of any paradigm so I always question what I am looking at. The details may not be readily apparent, but time will put them into perspective and we will look back at them and declare the Glory of our Lord through His Prophecies. I feel certain though that the closer we come to the Truth the more we will be hated for it. Big clue, don’t you think ?
God Bless You
David
September 15th, 2009 at 7:07 am
Willy. Magog and the Seleucid Empire are largely one and the same.
October 9th, 2009 at 12:14 am
The only antichrist mentioned in the bible is found in 1st and 2nd John and there isn’t one over arching A/C. If you read the verses around the mention of the A/C you can see that in each instance it is referring to multiple A/C not just one. The A/Cs are those who deny the deity of Christ, his coming in the flesh and rising from the dead, etc. They are false teachers not world rulers. There is no A/C ever spoken of who is a national ruler let alone a World ruler. Besides the term World as used in the bible does not refer to a round globe–at the time the bible was being written people still thought the world was flat and World referred to the area around the Mediterranean sea or the way society was structured as in how the Jewish law ordered and structured their society.
October 9th, 2009 at 5:55 am
Will. A few corrections. The notion of the AC is based on numerous OT passages. But by the time we reached 1 John, there was clearly an understanding of a coming one. Read 1 John 2 again. Yes, there are many AC’s but there is also The AC as well. In Greek, Kosmos does mean the entire earth. Other words such as Ge or Oikomenos could mean the whole earth, but often only mean land or region.
October 10th, 2009 at 12:48 am
Hello Joel–thank you for your comments. Let’s review this shall we. Take any example you want from 1st or 2nd John where the A/C is mentioned and simply reading the verses related the the mention of the A/c make it very evident that it is NOT talking about a single person or entity, but multiple A/Cs. I’ll take 1 John 2:18-19 simply because it is first:
“18 Children, it is the last hour. And as you have heard, “Antichrist is coming,” even now MANY antichrists have come. We know from this that it is the last hour. 19 THEY went out from us, but THEY did not belong to us; for if THEY had belonged to us, THEY would have remained with us. However, THEY went out so that it might be made clear that none of THEM belongs to us.” [That is 7 plural references to the antichrists]
As you can see the references to A/C here makes it obvious that there is not one single A/C warned about but John clearly warns of many antichrists and they are not mentioned as World rulers, but as apostate Christians.
It is clear that he is writing not about an A/C figure future to them in our time–there is no mention of a time shift here–but his warning is to the audience he is writing to–why would he need to warn them about something 2000 years after they are all dead anyway (It’s ok to apply common sense when reading the bible instead of suspending it like those who have prophecy tapes and books to sell need you to in order to make their material future to us).
There is a mention of a beast in the OT which is separate from the A/Cs. That beast is the fourth beast of Daniel which is the Roman empire and is the same beast referred to in Revelation.
The “entire earth” referred to in the bible is the land around the Mediterranean sea not nations of the other side of the planet. This is evident through out the bible when the whole earth is referred to. For example when Paul wrote the Colossians 1:6 & 23
“6 the gospel that has come to you. It is bearing fruit and growing all over the world, just as it has among you since the day you heard it and recognized God’s grace in the truth.”
“23 if indeed you remain grounded and steadfast in the faith, and are not shifted away from the hope of the gospel that you heard. [This gospel] has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and I, Paul, have become a minister of it.”
Obviously not a reference to the natives in the Americas which won’t be discovered for 1500 more years.
Other examples Romans 1:8 & 10:18
“23 if indeed you remain grounded and steadfast in the faith, and are not shifted away from the hope of the gospel that you heard. [This gospel] has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and I, Paul, have become a minister of it.”
” 18 But I ask, “Did they not hear?” Yes, they did:
Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the inhabited world.”
There are other good examples in the OT, but I’ll put aside more examples for now since Paul is obviously clearly stating the whole World has heard the Good News and in his mind and writings and teachings the whole world is the area around the Mediterranean sea.
Also note that Paul is clearing stating that the requirement that the whole world hear the Good news before Christ’s return has been met already. Obviously it is not the Americas or China or Russia or small Pacific Islands which have to hear the Good news before Christ’s return it is the whole World as they understand it which is the Mediterranean area.
Also please not that “last days” referred to by the apostles does not mean a time thousands of years future to them–they are clearly stating they are living in the last days. This only makes sense since they are writing from a Jewish perspective and it is the last days of the Old Covenant they are referring to.
P.S. thanks for hosting the chat forums–I trust much good and understanding will result from them.
Regards,
Will