The Arrivals
A must see. The following is a multi-part series that is going viral on You Tube. It is a documentary of sorts written by a Muslim group. The impact that my book and the Mahdi=Antichrist message has made is evident. What is ironic is that the response is if anyone tells you that the Mahdi is the Antichrist, they are “extremists”… But then they say that the Christian & Jewish Messiah is the Antichrist. But they are not “extremists” apparently. But you must watch this whole piece to get a feel for what I want you to see. To see where it is going. The play on anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism, the appeal to conspiracy theories, many perhaps partially true. The waters are getting very muddy. This is why Jesus repeatedly warned not to be decieved.
August 26th, 2009 at 7:25 am
I still feel sick in the gut since Monday after watching this. My brother and sister have fallen for this ‘lie’ and even go as far as saying that when Our (the Christians True Messiah, The Lamb Of God) Lord Jesus returns, the Muslims will ‘’already know that he is the Dajjal, and will be prepared for his decieving signs and wonders, and will get ready to see their Mahdi defeat the fake Jesus alongside the the real so called Isa who will return ‘'’.
August 26th, 2009 at 7:41 am
Wow, Joel! The religious muslims are really, really feeling the heat from your most outstanding book. Not only are Christian prophetic students reconsidering traditional prophetic views on most prophectic web sites (a Muslim AC POV is constantly being circulated) , but muslims are vigorously lauching a misinformation campaign to keep the truth from becoming known by the public-at-large and Christians in particular. Indeed, a tense spiritual warfare is on-going over this until the time has arrived for “the man of sin” to step out on the world stage. Otherwise, why all this push-and-pull if it is all about nothing?
Satan is pushing back hard because God has allowed the truth to come to light and Christians must be watchful and on guard as the coming AC (al-Mahdi) becomes a topic of more and more discussion among muslims and then news cycles…it is coming, imo.
August 26th, 2009 at 9:46 am
Peace and Blessings Sonia may God help us all to not fall for the strong delusion coming upon the world .
I hope your family realizes the truth I myself was almost fooled I grew up a christian I guess you could say but about the time my parents split up I went crazy breaking the law and getting into drugs and stuff I knew prophey to a point even at 4 I told my mom and dad about stuff I always read or tried to read rev 13 you know as I stood on the sands of the sea I saw a beast rise up out of the sea ect ect it use to scare them alittle anyway long story short I grew up wild and you name it I did it and have now changed mostly . well about 10 years ago I almost became a muslim I mean I was to the point that I was going down to the Mosque and going to confess that Allah was God and muhammed was his prophet . and I had a dream that stopped me . so there is hope but even now I sometimes feel a pull on me that maybe I should follow the one who is to come and maybe I was fooled its a strong delusion for sure .
God bless you and may God shine his Glory upon your face and those of your family and may it be a light that guides you all towards Rightousness .
Amen .
Rasul
August 26th, 2009 at 9:49 am
The lines are bring drawn by all sides. Some telling the truth, others telling lies, still others telling lies they believe to be true. It is all getting very muddied up and confused for anyone who does not have a relationship with the TRUTH. But in the midst of all this confusion being sown and deception laid down, one thing is being acheived by these things, and this I beleive is God’s will: there is a growing divsion. Light and darkness are drawing up in battle lines. Some know the difference and see them clearly for what they are others are completly deceived. But the divide, the growing separation between the two is clear. One side here… the other is there. Soon the whole world will be forced to line up. People will make that decision based on many factors. In his flesh a man will choose a way that seems right, but it will end in death. Unless the overridding influences in a man are God’s Word and unshakable faith in the crucified and resurrected Christ of the Bible, he will find himself behind the wrong leader.
August 26th, 2009 at 10:28 am
Sonia, I will pray for your family.
David, I agree with what you said, as I have been thinking the same sort of thing recently.
August 26th, 2009 at 11:55 am
Hey RASUL and Mishael - Thank you .
Lets keep watch and keep ourselves close to the Master Jesus.
Amen.
Bless you,
August 26th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Yes, the battle lines of light and darkness are being drawn and well defined. The verse that comes to mind is Jesus statement (Matthew 24:26) “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out…”
I never realized just what that meant until it was highlighted in your & Walid’s most enlightening book… “God’s War On Terror”.
JESUS IS LORD.
August 26th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
Just like to point out what I take as a bit of truth from the video. It is stated that the madhi will not confess to be Jesus, and I believe that to be accurate. The false prophet, or second beast from the earth is technically the Anti-Christ in my opinion at least as regards posing as the Christ. Of course it appears that the beast from the sea is preeminent and I think is the one who eventually proclaims himself god in the temple of God.
August 26th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
Yes, that verse of Christs is so very important as He clearly gave us a warning that (Matthew 24:26) “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out…”
DESERT….meaning in the arabian desert…….which is where this false Christ (Isa ) will declare his arrival.
August 26th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
Shocking, Appalling, Blasphemy!
August 26th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
Hi Joel,
Ok, I can’t follow the logic of the many assertions made… But I did catch the part where the narrator said something like the mahdi will not say he is the Christ. I guess he will be above that sort of thing…
But aren’t Muslims waiting for the return of Isa (Muslim Jesus) along with the mahdi? Does the video series go into how to tell, from a Muslim perspective, Isa from the Dajjal?
In addition to promoting the Middle East (vs. European) centric end times, I hope you’re promoting Muslim Jesus = False Prophet. Does European centric end times have any idea who the False Prophet will be?
Keep up the good work!
August 26th, 2009 at 7:06 pm
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-scripture/38366-signs-qiyamat.html
Sahih Muslim - Book 40, Number 7015:
Narrated An-Nawwas ibn Sam’an:
Allah’s Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) mentioned of the Dajjal one day in the morning. He sometimes described him as insignificant and sometimes described (his turmoil) as very significant (and we felt) as if he were in the cluster of the date-palm trees. When we went to him (to the Holy Prophet) in the evening and he read (the signs of fear) on our faces, he said: What is the matter with you? We said: Allah’s Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) you mentioned the Dajjal this morning (sometimes describing him) as insignificant and sometimes very important, until we began to think he was present in some (nearly) part of the cluster of the date-palm trees.
So he said: I harbour fear in regard to you in so many other things besides the Dajjal. If he comes forth while I am among you, I shall contend with him on your behalf, but if he comes forth while I am not among you, a man must contend on his own behalf and Allah will take care of every Muslim on my behalf (and safeguard him against his evil). He (the Dajjal) will be a young man with twisted, cropped hair, and a blind eye. I compare him with AbdulUzza ibn Qatan. He who among you will survive to see him should recite over him the opening verses of Surah al-Kahf (xviii). He will appear on the way between Syria and Iraq and will spread mischief right and left. O servant of Allah! Adhere (to the path of Truth).
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3004/2382600448_d6a76a81bf_o.png
(area within the Dashed lines in white)
We said: Allah’s Apostle (peace_be_upon_him), how long will he stay on Earth? He said: For forty days, one day like a year, one day like a month, one day like a week, and the rest of the days will be like your days. We said: Allah’s Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) will one day’s prayer suffice for the prayers of the day equal to one year? Thereupon he said: No, but you must make an estimate of the time (and then observe prayer).
We said: Allah’s apostle (peace_be_upon_him) how quickly will he walk upon the earth? Thereupon he said: Like cloud driven by the wind. He will come to the people and invite them (to a wrong religion); they will affirm their faith in him and respond to him. He will then give a command to the sky: there will be rainfall upon the Earth and it will grow crops. Then in the evening, their pasturing animals will come to them with their humps very high, their udders full of milk and their flanks distended. He will then come to another people and invite them. But they will reject him so he will go away from them; they will have a drought and nothing will be left with them in the form of wealth.
He will then walk through the desert and say to it: Bring forth your treasures. The treasures will come out and gather before him like a swarm of bees. He will then call someone in the flush of youth, strike him with the sword, cut him into two pieces and (make these pieces lie at the distance which is generally between the archer and his target.
He will then call (that young man) and he will come forward laughing with his face gleaming (with happiness). It will at this very time that Allah will send Christ, son of Mary. He will descend at the white minaret on the eastern side of Damascus, wearing two garments lightly dyed with saffron and placing his hands on the wings of two Angels. When he lowers his head, there will fall beads of perspiration from his head, and when he raises it up, beads like pearls will scatter from it. Every non-believer who smells the odour of his body will die and his breath will reach as far as he is able to see. He will then search for him (Dajjal) until he catches hold of him at the gate of Ludd and kills him.
Then a people whom Allah had protected will come to Jesus, son of Mary, and he will wipe their faces and inform them of their ranks in Paradise. It will be under such conditions that Allah will reveal to Jesus these words: I have brought forth from among My servants such people against whom none will be able to fight; you take these people safely to Tur, and then Allah will send Gog and Magog and they will swarm down from every slope. The first of them will pass the lake of Tiberias and drink out of it. And when the last of them passes, he will say: There was once water there.
Jesus and his companions will then be besieged here (at Tur, and they will be so hard pressed) that the head of the ox will be dearer to them than one hundred dinars. Allah’s Apostle (peace_be_upon_him), Jesus, and his companions will supplicate Allah, Who will send to them insects (which will attack their necks) and in the morning they would perish as one single person. Allah’s Apostle (peace_be_upon_him), Jesus, and his companions, then come down to Earth and they will not find on Earth as much space as a single span that is not filled with putrefaction and stench. Allah’s Apostle (peace_be_upon_him), Jesus, and his companions will then beseech Allah who will send birds whose necks would be like those of Bactrian camels and they will carry them away and throw them where Allah wills.
Then Allah will send rain which no house of mud-bricks or (tent of) camel-hair will keep out and it will wash the Earth until it resembles a mirror. Then the Earth will be told to bring forth its fruit and restore its blessing and, as a result thereof, there will grow (such a big) pomegranate that a group of people will be able to eat it and seek shelter under its skin, a dairy cow will give so much milk that a whole party will be able to drink it. The milking camel will give such (a large quantity of) milk that the whole tribe will be able to drink from it, and the milking-sheep will give so much milk that the whole family will be able to drink from it. At that time Allah will send a pleasant wind which will soothe (people) even under their armpits. He will take the life of every Muslim and only the wicked will survive who will commit adultery like asses and the Last Hour would come to them.
http://i-cias.com/e.o/alawism.htm
History
857: Muhammadu bni Nusair claims to be the gate (Bab) or representative to the 10th imam among the Shi’is, Ali al Hadi.
10th century: The sect is firmly established by Husayn ibn Hamdan al-Khasibi, during the Shi’i Hamdanid dynasty of Aleppo.
1004: The Hamdanid dynasty falls, and the Alawites are driven out of Aleppo, and centuries of hardship begin.
12th century: The Alawites are badly treated by Crusaders.
1971: The Alawite Hafez al-Assad becomes president of Syria. This brought an end to the Alawites being outcasts in Syrian society. Since then their status has significantly improved, as have their living standards.
1974: The Lebanese leader of the Twelver Shi’is, Imam Musa al-Sadr, issues a legal decision saying that the Alawites are Shi’i Muslims.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2362/2493400298_4677de81c6.jpg
He will appear on the way between Syria and Iraq and will spread mischief right and left. O servant of Allah! Adhere (to the path of Truth).
IPSE DIXIT…..
August 26th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
Oh, wow. I feel sick. As others stated above, Matthew 24:26 just made such sense and it was full of clarity after reading Shoebat’s book. Eyes wide open now.
Diana
August 26th, 2009 at 8:44 pm
Wow. This is a whole series. I watched several of them and also feel sick. It is shocking how Satan is creating the lie that so many will fall for. I have felt battle lines being drawn for a while now –even at work as those who view true Christianity as intolerant and backwards are now in the majority.
August 26th, 2009 at 9:51 pm
chris, Pre-wrath…,
Go back and read Joel’s interview with Harun Yahya, here.
For those keeping score, here are your key players; Islamic titles first:
Mahdi == Antichrist (yes, with a capital “A”
The Prophet Jesus == The FALSE Prophet (how hard can this be?)
Yahya speaks of the appearing of Hazrat Mahdi, and specifically states that “The Prophet Jesus” shows up with him. Yahya goes on to deliver this rather chilling quote:
It seems quite clear to me that, since “The Prophet Jesus” isn’t the Risen Christ, then those of us who love the Risen Christ are going to be in a rather sticky spot. There we’ll be with the Mahdi out there trying to “purify” Christianity of us. And he’ll have just about everybody out there fooled into backing him up. I mean; you think Barack Obama was a rockstar — you ain’t seen NOTHIN’ yet! The whole Earth is going to go ga-ga over this Mahdi, and “The Prophet Jesus” will “reconcile” the Q’ran, Torah, and New Testament (seemingly), which will pave the way broad and smooth for everyone who does not really love the Truth to go ahead and embrace the Mahdi and The Prophet Jesus.
After all that, these deceived masses are going to take an exceptionally dim view of anyone who isn’t going along with Hazrat Mahdi, “The Prophet Jesus,” and their Worldwide Magical Mystery Babylon Tour. And that’s going to be US, and all others who “hold fast” to our confession regarding The Truth”!
My understanding from Scripture is that such dissent is going to cost a bunch of people their heads. And you can just forget the comparative mercy of the guillotine, ‘cuz the Mahdi’s crowd prefers knives.
What’s YOUR church going to look like when that happens?
Pray. Hard.
August 26th, 2009 at 10:34 pm
I watched part of the videos on Youtube and i think they are poorly done. They need hollywood to help them out. I think it’s near time to have a hollywood movie based on Walid Shoebat and Joel Richardsons views on the end times. That would outstanding.
Here’s a cool video on the demographics in the world and dying cultures. Europe might as well hang it up. The U.S. is borderline.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK1pnCldKZI
August 26th, 2009 at 10:38 pm
Several things. they flash the words so quickly I had a hard time reading and comprehending it, secondly, I thought more about wanting to watch my Lord of the Rings trilogy again, than on what they were saying for the first few minutes.
I know the Mahdi is going to deceive the world and get everyone to think that Jesus when he returns is the antichrist, he will have everyone fooled. I did find it interesting that the mahdi will ask how he could be the antichristt since he will never claim to be Christ. I am going to watch this again sometime when I have a few more minutes to try to follow it. Interesting link though, and I really appreciate this site and all the interesting and insightful comments
August 26th, 2009 at 10:51 pm
Revelation 17:17 - “For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God’s words are fulfilled”. God will always be in control.
All the antichrist can do is what God allows.
God will allow the spirit of violence (the beast) in the east to destroy the spirit of immorality (the Harlot) in the west and then God will destroy the spirit of violence in the east.
Those called chosen and faithful in Rev 17:14 have nothing to do with immorality or violence.
If you want to deal with eastern violence then you need to deal with western immorality as the two spirits work together.
Loving God have mercy - open our eyes.
August 27th, 2009 at 12:36 am
Wow, Rasuljacob. Your experience of almost becoming a Muslim … so similar to mine that I thought I was reading my own testimony! The only difference was that I did not have a dream, but I prayed with one hand holding the Bible and another holding the Qur’an, and asking the true God to reveal Himself to me, and later through some reading, He showed me!
As for the video, the assertion that al-Mahdi cannot be ad-Dajjal because he will not claim to be Christ is the wrong assertion… and therefore wrong answer. The definition of AC must be found in the definitions of the Apostle John in 1 and 2 John… and the most impt are denial of the Son, and denial that He came in the flesh (i.e., God came in the flesh). This Islam fits perfectly, and therefore al-Mahdi fits perfectly.
Anyway, all of us who propound the Islamic paradigm does not say al-Mahdi will claim to be Christ. That is really a strawman set up as a deflection. Instead, we opined that it will be the False Prophet. And this again fits perfectly, since Isa will claim to be the real Christ.
The more Muslims deny it through specious arguments, the more clearly they don’t understand the paradigm, the more they are set up to be deceived.
If people are interested, I have dealt with other Muslim objections at http://al-mahdi.atspace.com/objections.html (al-Mahdi will not claim to be Christ, al-Mahdi and Isa are the Two Witnesses, etc).
August 27th, 2009 at 1:25 am
Here is all the “Arrival” videos
http://www.wakeupproject.com/VList.asp?Series=1
August 27th, 2009 at 2:18 am
These videos sound interesting. I only get the chance to look at this site during slow times at work and youtube and most other videos are blocked.
To jon
Thank you for the site you listed, I can get it just fine, but the clips won’t play. I read the comments on the site and it seems others can’t watch them either. Can you verify they work? If they do then the problem is the filters here at my work and I’ll have to find some other way to watch them.
My thanks to all who post here. It help me to read your comments.
August 27th, 2009 at 4:48 am
If you watch all the Arrivals series, parts 1 straight through the final part 50, then you will see exactly what we are dealing with here.
Brace yourselves, as it makes for very uncomfortable viewing.
August 27th, 2009 at 4:50 am
Youtube have cracked down on material like this, and some of the ARRIVALS videos were initially blocked. But they are available to view now.
I suggest that you pray and cloth yourself with the armour of God and apply the blood, before you watch.
Blessings
S
August 27th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
yes amac I was in a crazy spot and am better for it now we all need to spread the message to our family , friends and people who we would feel uncomfortable with yes the muslims they are in need they have been taught the LIE some from birth . they are the biggest lossers in this whole mess now remember Islam is a very old faith and many many hadiths saying and religious leaders have tweeked twisted the sayings after all lots of them were first written on bones , leather ect ect and some text were different then others so they burn alot of them ect ect so many different sects sprang up some are more non violent then others and many hate each other but please for the most part the muslims ive met in person and worked with were very very nice I use to go to a arabic market for pita’s and some treats . they were great this was in california when I lived there .
the muslims online if they really are muslims have a very bad temper towardds me when I speak to them .
but Love them anyway there people remember not aliens !!! God has special plans for many of the islamic nations to turn them towards him and some like elam ( iran ) jer 49 will be blessed . and egypt , assyira along with Israel will be a blessing and a highway will go through them . many many other nations will be blessed when the REAL JESUS comes .
Rasul
August 27th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
howard
I thought it was a plugin problem like divx but apparently others are having problems too. The easiest way is just to copy the name and paste it in youtube search and it should pop right up.
August 27th, 2009 at 7:15 pm
To InfiniteEMF: I feel like the term Anti-Christ is more correctly applied to the beast from the earth because I believe he’s the one who masquerades as Jesus. The first beast (from the sea) is usually identified as the Anti-Christ, but the Madhi doesn’t proclaim himself to be Jesus as the false prophet does. Not a big deal, but that’s how I see it.
August 27th, 2009 at 7:17 pm
Of course they’re all energized by the spirit of Anti-Christ which I see as the dragon/allah.
August 27th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Wow…yeah…that didn’t take long. They just came out on the 3rd video with the “Blame the Jews” agenda. This series is straight from the bowels of hell. I pray that God will CRUSH this campaign of lies.
Fast and Pray, folks…fast and pray.
StopSharia
August 27th, 2009 at 8:30 pm
I agree with Sonia about praying before you watch these videos. It reminded me of how I felt watching some of Obama’s campaign speeches. Even though the discerning hairs on the back of my neck were standing up, there’s something so nice and comforting about a message of all God’s people joining together in harmony. And even though its a false message of “hope, ” I can see how even well-meaning people would be drawn in with this call to moderateness and harmony.
August 27th, 2009 at 11:58 pm
amac said:
“As for the video, the assertion that al-Mahdi cannot be ad-Dajjal because he will not claim to be Christ is the wrong assertion… and therefore wrong answer. The definition of AC must be found in the definitions of the Apostle John in 1 and 2 John… and the most impt are denial of the Son, and denial that He came in the flesh (i.e., God came in the flesh). This Islam fits perfectly, and therefore al-Mahdi fits perfectly.”
My thoughts exactly.
August 28th, 2009 at 6:39 am
I didn’t watch the videos because Youtube is censored in my arab country.
But I have read all of your comments.
I am muslim, I believe in Abraham, Mose, Jesus, Mohammed and the Twelve Imams the last of whom is the Mahdi, from the progeny of Fatima, the daughter of the last Messenger Mohammed and son of Nargis from the progeny of Jesus Christ.
Humanity lost the faith in her Unique, exalted God. Hence, by his mercy, there were prophets and messengers with religions to teach. However humanity responded by killing them and the falsification of their books.
Until came the Quran, a divine and unaltered book from the mouth of an illetrate prophet a son of Ismael and of Abraham.
And until came the Mahdi then went on occultation so that disbelievers will no more fulfil their animal desire of killing the purified and divinely chosen men.
The Anti-Christ is in its place, waiting the day he will come out and deceive his followers.
Who are the candidate of to be his followers ?
They are those who says the Christ is a God in flesh. And when the False Christ comes out he will fulfill what they are expecting from him by claiming to them he is God. And he will show them paradise and hell and that is the rapture day. The people who didn’t observe the rule of God to save themselves in their life are just waiting for their False God so to save them. What a logic !
That is the path of deception.
Why isn’t the False Christ some thing else, a different name ? That is so because those who told God has begotten a son, a son who is a God (God is Exalted and is over their blasphemy) take their punishment by being the people most willing to follow the Man of sins who claims to be God, and so that their prophet who came to point them to the One God be to them the False Prophet.
August 28th, 2009 at 6:46 am
Discussions are just but proof of the One God : we all try to converge things to a one reality, refusing to accept two opposing truths.
Truth can’t be but one. So God is one not a trinity.
August 28th, 2009 at 7:43 am
English: American Standard Version Arabic: Smith & Van Dyke
Matthew 16 [Context] [Commentary] [Map] Biblical Art and Illustrations
15. He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am? فقال لهم وانتم من تقولون اني انا. .15
16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. فاجاب سمعان بطرس وقال انت هو المسيح ابن الله الحي. .16
17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven. فاجاب يسوع وقال له طوبى لك يا سمعان بن يونا. ان لحما ودما لم يعلن لك لكن ابي الذي في السموات. .17
18. And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. وانا اقول لك ايضا انت بطرس وعلى هذه الصخرة ابني كنيستي وابواب الجحيم لن تقوى عليها. .18
19. I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. وأعطيك مفاتيح ملكوت السموات. فكل ما تربطه على الارض يكون مربوطا في السموات. وكل ما تحله على الارض يكون محلولا في السموات. .19
20. Then charged he the disciples that they should tell no man that he was the Christ. حينئذ اوصى تلاميذه ان لا يقولوا لاحد انه يسوع المسيح .20
The American Standard Version (ASV) of the Holy Bible is in the Public Domain. Please feel free to copy it, give it away, memorize it, publish it, sell it, or whatever God leads you to do with it.
The American Standard Version of 1901 is an Americanization of the English Revised Bible, which is an update of the KJV to less archaic spelling and greater accuracy of translation. It has been called “The Rock of Biblical Honesty.” It is the product of the work of over 50 Evangelical Christian scholars.
While the ASV retains many archaic word forms, it is still more understandable to the modern reader than the KJV in many passages. The ASV also forms the basis for several modern English translations, including the World English Bible (http://www.eBible.org/bible/WEB), which is also in the Public Domain. The ASV uses “Jehovah” for God’s proper name. While the current consensus is that this Holy Name was more likely pronounced “Yahweh,” it is refreshing to see this rendition instead of the overloading of the word “Lord” that the KJV, NASB, and many others do.
Pronouns referring to God are not capitalized in the ASV, as they are not in the NIV and some others, breaking the tradition of the KJV. Since Hebrew has no such thing as tense, and the oldest Greek manuscripts are all upper case, anyway, this tradition was based only on English usage around 1600, anyway. Not capitalizing these pronouns solves some translational problems, such as the coronation psalms, which refer equally well to an earthly king and to God.
Arabic Bible
Translated by Smith & Van Dyke, 1865.
August 28th, 2009 at 7:51 am
To the muslim: when we say Son of God it does not mean that God has had a SEXUAL INTERCOURSE with Mariam.
Anyway in the Quran is narrated the Virginal Birth of Jesus (or Eesa)
if it has been Allah’s will…..In what Allah is NOT the FATHER of EESA??
THINK about it…..
August 28th, 2009 at 8:25 am
hIOExpectedMKDisk,
Trinity doesn’t mean 3 separate persons, it means 3 of the SAME. God is ONE.
It sounds like you are a Muslim from your comment, so let’s look at this from the Islamic perspective… (the following is paraphrased but is all documented in the Hadith Bukhari, Muslim)
When a Muslim dies, it is stated that the person’s soul separates from their body to go to the different levels of heaven and is eventually taken before Allah. Allah has his name written into the book and says to take ‘him’ back to his body.
Next, the soul is taken back and stays floating above the body and when the corpse is placed in the grave. Then the soul inserts itself between the body and the shroud so that the questioning by the angels, Munkar
and Nakir, can take place. This is where they find out if the person was a good Muslim or not…
Also, the Qur’an states that Allah breathes his spirit into each person he creates (Surah 32:9)
—
If a Muslim believes in the text of the Islamic books, then they have to believe that they are made up of 3 parts — a BODY, a SOUL, and a SPIRIT. This is a triune nature (a trinity). You have the soul leaving the body to be questioned by the angels to see if the person is a good Muslim. That is two parts to the same person. Then you have the life giving spirit that is breathed into you. That is the third part of the same person. You get the point.
Isn’t it interesting that Allah says to take ‘him’ back to his body. The soul is what defines you as a person. That is what is taken before Allah according to the Hadith.
Are you saying that you don’t have these attributes? You are still only ONE person, aren’t you? You have 3 parts that are all of the same entity.
It is the same way with the Christian belief in ONE GOD. There is God the Father — the SOUL (the thoughts, feelings, character, etc. that make up the core of GOD. It is who God is. It defines the nature of God.). Then, there is God the Son — the BODY (God’s SOUL came in the form of man to let us more easily see His nature.). And, finally, there is God the Spirit — the SPIRIT (the life giving breath of God that He breathes into all mankind.)
That is the ONENESS of the Trinity.
Since you have to believe in the 3 part nature of yourself, then you are not that far off from believing in the 3 part nature of the ONE true God. The God of the Bible.
August 28th, 2009 at 10:34 am
Perdonado - great description.
hIOExpectedMKDisk - interesting that you say this:
“The Anti-Christ is in its place, waiting the day he will come out and deceive his followers. Who are the candidate of to be his followers ?
“They are those who says the Christ is a God in flesh… That is so because those who told God has begotten a son, a son who is a God (God is Exalted and is over their blasphemy) take their punishment by being the people most willing to follow the Man of sins who claims to be God.”
Long before Mohammad was born, the Apostle John wrote this:
“Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist – he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also… This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.”
(1 John 2:22-23 , 4:2-3)
This is directly opposite to what you are saying. You are right when you say that two opposing ideas of truth cannot both be true. So who do we believe? The one that came first, or the one that claims the first was corrupted? What proof is there of corruption? I honestly would like to know.
August 28th, 2009 at 10:50 am
God is Love, Wisdom, and Truth. All things were created by the wisdom of God for the wisdom of God is the “logos” that was with God, that is God. that became flesh and dwelt among us. It was the “logos” the beloved Son of the Father whom we come to know as “Love” who was subjected to manifest the greater love by which all who believe in redemptive act will be saved. In order for man to be saved from the sentence of death, God’s wisdom would have to be sacrificed. But God’s wisdom is One with God, for God’s wisdom is the Logos by which all things were created whether in heaven or on earth.
And it fell on the Logos who is God to display the greater love and die for the unrighteous since it was the very wisdom of God that demanded that man be subjected to death because that is what is demanded for the wages of sin. And since it is impossible for God to lie, the sentence of death had to be borne by someone . And it fell on the Logos the Son of God, who is God to be sacrificed, since it was the Logos - the Wisdom of God that is God and begotten by the love of the Father to become the atoning sacrifice and the Redeemer of the world by displaying the greater love by which all who come to believe in him are saved.
God is Spirit. It is by the Spirit of Love, Wisdom, and Truth, by which God reveals himself to be in the Oneness of Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit- the Spirit of Truth. And from the love of the Father comes the Logos -the Wisdom of God by which all things were created. And from the Wisdom of God comes forth the Holy Spirit - the Spirit of Truth that is essentially the will of the Father.
The Father is greater than all because the Father is the Spirit of Love. But from the Love of the Father comes the Son - the Logos that is God because the Logos is the Wisdom of the Father that is One and who is begotten by the love of the Father. And from the Logos, the Wisdom of God, we find the testimony of Truth - the Holy Spirit - the will of the Father that defines all that is true. This is because apart from the will of God there is no truth but only sin and lies.
In the commentary of the Blue Letter Bible we have the following:
“Note: A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe.”
It is in the context of defining the world “logos”that we come to understand who the Son of the Father is. And sure enough the Son turns out to be our God, our beloved Jesus - the logos - the wisdom of the Father who was with God and is God and by which all things were created so that all that was created by the logos of God came to be declared to be good.
And if the logos -the wisdom of God became flesh and dwelt among us so as to display the greater love by which all who come to believe in him are saved, why would we be surprised that such Logos - wisdom could be begotten by the Love of the Father since it is declared that God is Love. Thus, the Godhead is Love, Logos (Wisdom),and Truth. And indeed God is One, and whoever has seen the Son - the Logos of God (Wisdom) has seen the love of the Father, and whoever has seen the love of the Father has seen the Holy Spirit has seen the Truth - the will of the Father that can do no other than to give testimony to the Love and the Wisdom of God.
August 28th, 2009 at 11:24 am
Check out 6 Flags new promotion.
http://muslimfamilyday.com/
August 28th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
Jon,
Hurry up and warn Porky pig not to go to work.
August 28th, 2009 at 2:24 pm
lol
August 28th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
@mishael
we do not deny jesus christ:
http://www.shiatv.net/view_video.php?viewkey=51c9d670adcd37004f48
August 28th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
hIOExpectedMKDisk:
No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
(1 John 2:23)
Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from Him anything we ask, because we obey His commands and do what pleases Him. And this is His command: to believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as He commanded us. Those who obey His commands live in Him, and He in them. And this is how we know that He lives in us: We know it by the Spirit He gave us.
(1 John 3:21-24)
(NOTE: This Spirit given to us is exactly what Jesus was talking about in John 14-16.)
We know that we live in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world. If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.
(1 John 4:13-15)
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out His commands. This is love for God: to obey His commands. And His commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
This is the one who came by water and blood – Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. We accept man’s testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which He has given about His Son. Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made Him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about His Son. And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
(1 John 5:1-13)
hIOExpectedMKDisk, to you as a Muslim, all these verses are blasphemy. You may call Jesus “the Christ,” but what does that actually mean to you?
Yes, He is the Christ, the Messiah, the anointed - anointed and chosen to be the Savior of the world by God Himself (1 John 4:14, John 3:17, etc.). What is He saving the world from? The dominion of sin (John 1:29), thus reconciling mankind with God (Romans 5:12-21). Only God can do this, as only God is truly good (Luke 18:19, Romans 3:10). There is no true savior but God (Isaiah 43:11).
Is this what Jesus is to you? Your Savior as He was anointed to be? Or is “Christ” merely a title that means nothing in the end?
Muslims may associate the title of Christ with Jesus, but they deny who He is in character, who He described Himself to be:
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
(John 3:16-18)
If I glorify Myself, My glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies Me. Though you do not know Him, I know Him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word.
(John 8:54-55)
Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came – and the Scripture cannot be broken – what about the one whom the Father set apart as His very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse Me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? Do not believe Me unless I do what My Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe Me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.
(John 10:34-38)
These are just a few of the references where Jesus said such things about Himself. If you say that these passages are corrupted, you will need to provide proof that Jesus did not say these things. So far I have quoted from John, the “beloved disciple,” who was very close to Jesus and who was honored with receiving the Revelation. He would have no reason to misrepresent his Lord.
August 28th, 2009 at 10:47 pm
in the hebrew to describe God is One the word is Echad ( one in a unit, one cluster of grapes , one dozen ) there is another word in the hebrew that means one as in one single . its God’s word I wont deny it He God is one Jesus was right no one has seen God Almighty but him meaning this only God knows see’s himself . Jesus is the closest thing to seeing God just as in the tabernacle made of sheets of skin God dwelled there , just as in the Holy of Holiess made of stone God dwelled there God wrapped himself in flesh he isnt some greek god , He has always been , he is one as Time is one past , present and future , as an egg is one hard shell , soft white , egg yolk , water is one frozen , running , or steam , there are many examples but still we cant come close to it . doesnt it say in the hadiths that at the end when a muslim dies some get to see allahs shin ?
Ill look it up or you can please. allah for most purposes is hubal , or the god syn he is a variance of different gods merged into one history shows the cresent moon was very important to arabia , also if we search the quran we can seen many things that are in our bible twisted accounts of the historical and many things that are in the gnostic bible stories as well as some pre Islamic poets writtings as well as some jewish folk lore .
my friend this isnt your fault God willing you can and will see the light I know most if not all people who read your post will pray for you and your loved ones we dont want anything bad for you we want to only free yourself from the bondage of this life I myself know that in Islam there really is no such thing as certain salvation you can never truly know if your saved but my friend here is the good news out of all faiths religions there is one that preaches assured salvation and thats christianity you can know without a doubt that God Loves you yes he does and that he wants you to have a relationship with him on a personal level you dont have to jump through any hoops for him to meet him he is there waiting for you pray to him once in Jesus name to have him reveal himself to you he will if you do this honestly my friend free yourself today , tonight he will do the rest he promises to if you truly seek him when you die you will enter heaven and forever be with him God is Great and he loved you so much that he was willing to not have you sacrifice yourself for him but he sent his son to be sacrificed for you who has more love allah or Yahweh ?
God bless you .
Rasul
August 28th, 2009 at 11:00 pm
becoming born again not of flesh but in the spirit ask God to reveal himself to you and be willing to accept what he says to your heart not what tradtion says not what the teachers of religious law have said just you and him no one else and be willing to give yourself to him your heart your love , then confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus Christ if Lord that he was sent to die on the cross for your sins that he was the perfect sacrifice and thats why he did it ( we would fail being perfect ) and that he took all sins away past present and future , and he is Risen he has rose from the dead back to life conquering death bringing victory over the grave then my friend after learn about him read the bible see what he has for your life now this doesnt mean you can sin sin sin because you cant you must fight sin but this time you have the help of the spirit of God to help you .
rasul
August 28th, 2009 at 11:17 pm
hIOExpectedMKDisk,
Sounds like you are truly searching for truth.
In Jeremiah 29:11 “God says,I know the thoughts that I think toward you (hIOExpectedMKDisk) says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope.
Jer 29:12 Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you.
Jer 29:13 And you will seek Me and find [Me], when you search for Me with all your heart.
I will pray for you. I pray you would also seek Him, He loves you!
“Abba, I pray You would reveal Your Great Mercy and Love offered for hIOExpectedMKDisk and me and everyone You created in that completely selfless act of dying on the cross specifically to hIOExpectedMKDisk. Thank you for paying a price we could never pay, and thank You for freeing us from bondage. Thank You for the hope, peace and assurance You have left with us in the Comforter. Thank You for Your precious blood that You freely gave that we might be reconciled to You, where we belong. Thank You, Jesus!”
August 29th, 2009 at 12:25 am
DearhIOExpectedMKDisk,
I will try to be as nice as I can, not witholding the truth.
Should you keep in beleiving in old wives fables as you evidently are, and God forbid you died in this deluded state, thinking of Christ as a mere man,then allow me to describe the scene that you will face. You will weep, you will gnash your teeth, and you will pull your hairs, and cry and fear and an infinite sense of despair will overcome your soul, when you see the Son of God, comming from heaven with his Holy angels to judge the living and the dead. Dear hIOExpectedMKDisk, yes one day you or someone that beleives as you do may decapitate me for my faith, but even in my last dying breath i will pray that you will not die before knowing Christ, THE CHRIST, THE WORD MADE FLESH, Not the stupid cartoon that your demonic, satanic, hellbound faith has made jesus to be. He the Christ, does not need yours or my endorsement, He is your Lord whether you acknowledege Him as such or not, and He will grind you to powder if you do not repent, and I tell you this beacuse I do not want to be guilty in case your soul clings to Allah till the end, which will automatically send you to a lake that has nothing to do with Lake Tahoe, but a lake of fire, where you will be tormented forever and ever in the presence of Him who you called a prophet and not God. You are a liar, and a deceiver, repent before is too late. And I hope you can read this comment before is too late, or before is censored. EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL CONFESS~JESUS CHRIST IS KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS
August 29th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
hIOExpectedMKDisk, did you read what Perdonado wrote about the idea of a trinity being one? Does it make sense to you? I ask because what he wrote was an excellent description of what we believe. I am curious to know your thoughts about it.
August 29th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
Perdanado got it right. We attribute 3 “parts” to 1 human being, but we never say that 1 of these parts is 33.33333% of ourselves. No…. each part is given the weight of 100% of us. So, when I am acting mostly from my emotions, that is still 100% of me. When I am acting mostly from my intellect only, that is 100% of me and when I act mostly from the physical, that also is 100% of me. These “parts” are so inextricably interwoven that it is not possible for me to be a complete human without one them. I must have all 3 parts to qualify as a human being. God is the same. And that is how He is echad - one complete unit - without being 3 separate gods acting in perfect synchronization.
August 30th, 2009 at 4:27 am
Perdonade and you who affirm his description about trinity this is for you:
I believe it’s wrong to claim that Jesus are the soul of God and to compare God to the old greec philosophie ”that man contains body,soul and spirit”. These misunderstandings have led to much false doctrines within christianity. The bible says that Jesus is the son of God and The Holy Spirit is to be given by God, without measuring, to those who believe that Christ is the son of God, becomen in the flesh and died on the cross for our sins. I don’t agree with trying to win muslims to Christ by explain him so that he fits the description of Allah. God is one Jesus is one and they are one and we who believs are one with them.
/Robert
August 30th, 2009 at 8:07 am
God is one.
August 30th, 2009 at 10:01 am
Hi all,
I really recommend the book by Yoel Natan called “The Jewish Trinity” about when Rabbis believed in Father, Son, and Holy Sprit.
It shows so clearly that rather than hinting at God’s triunity the Old Testament literally drips of this page by page about Father, Son, and Spirit.
Hence Jesus could say “these are the Scriptures that witness about me.” John 5.
August 30th, 2009 at 11:08 am
hIOExpectedMKDisk, did you read what Perdonado said? Are you not made up of three (body, soul, spirit) and yet one being?
August 30th, 2009 at 11:25 am
This is called excess in religion. The son is not but the favored man, the son of the saint Mary whose faith was pure and above the hypocrite of her time even those who were pretending to be religious.
The spirit is but the favored angel, Gabrael, who was the intercessor between the Creator, the One God, and the righteous men.
The father is a false term, obviously created by those who hated saint Mary, hated God, and didn’t like the favor that God gave to her (faith and mother of the messiah whom they rejected) and who meant to mislead people over her.
After they wanted to crucify Jesus and that it appeared to them that they’ve done so, they changed the scriptures and, with the hate in their heart, after it was obvious to them that the next messiah will be among arabs they wrote this :
“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out…”
And they knew about the twelve princes to come after him and they knew about the return of Jesus and they knew about the Man of sin who will force people to worship him above the one God.
So their alteration was such Jesus be their False prophet, the final and true messiah be the Man of sin and the Man of sin be the One whom people should follow.
But God his final words -the Quran- to point believers to him and to tell those who commit excess in religion that fire is waiting for them.
And they were not asked but to worship God, to bow, not to differentiate between his prophets, to follow the lead of their Imams, to do good deeds coupled with the Pure faith.
But from them are those who refused the messengers, are those who killed the apostles, are those who discriminated the Imams, are those who changed the scriptures, are those who said God does not exist, are those who said God exists but we are free to do what we want to do, are those who said God has a son, and are those who said we are God.
Surely The Man of sin is their joy and reward for they refused the True God, their One Creature, and the creature of both the awaiting Heaven and Hell.
They forgot Abraham, the father of prophets when Nimrod (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod_(king)) claimed to him he is God :
“Have you not considered him (Namrud) who disputed with Ibrahim about his Lord, because Allah had given him the kingdom? When Ibrahim said: My Lord is He who gives life and causes to die, he said: I give life and cause death. Ibrahim said: So surely Allah causes the sun to rise from the east, then make it rise from the west; thus he who disbelieved was confounded; and Allah does not guide aright the unjust people.” Qu’ran 2:258
You want us to make a connection between our Mahdi, your Awaited God-man and these two ?
Abraham is a zelous man, a prophet
Mahdi is the son of Askari, from the propgeny of Fatima, the duaghter of the Last messenger Mohammed from the progeny of Ismael, the son of Abraham.
Mahdi is the son of Nargis from the progeny of Jesus the son of Mary the daughter of Imran from the progeny of Isaac the son of Abraham.
Namrud resurrects the dead and kills the alive and claims to be God. Your Man, the God-Man claims to be God and will be able to kill men, split them in half then brings them back to life but like Namrud, he will not be able to bring the sun from west.
You want to know God, read the Quran, refuse those try to abominate the picture, open your hearts start the reading and then you will be able to see how God describes himself to you and that you will recognize him and bow with those who bow to him.
August 30th, 2009 at 11:29 am
The term Creature in the above reply, in the following paragraph :
“Surely The Man of sin is their joy and reward for they refused the True God, their One Creature, and the creature of both the awaiting Heaven and Hell.”
should be replaced with the term :
Creator.
=>One Creator, and the Creator of both ..etc
August 30th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
hIOExpectedMKDisk said; “The spirit is but the favored angel, Gabrael, who was the intercessor between the Creator, the One God, and the righteous men”
I would like to post for you an ayat from the Quran, in Surah 15:29 the Quran says
YUSUFALI: “When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.”
This is part of the exchange between Allah and Ibliss (satan) in reference to Adam.
My question for hIOExpectedMKDisk would be are you saying that Gabriel and not Allah is what was breathed into the lifeless Adam to bring him to life?
hIOExpectedMKDisk, when I read the Quran I found it to be most confusing as to the identity of the Spirit of Allah. If indeed the Quran is saying that Gabriel is the source of life breathed into Adam I would call this the ultimate case of committing shirk. May I humbly suggest that the confusion here was on Mohammeds part trying to reconcile stories he had heard and order them into some semblance of what could pass for revelation? Read all of the passages in Quran about the Spirit of Allah and consider the consequences of believing that this is speaking of Gabriel.
Lastly I would like to reiterate what those before have said already, we Christians do affirm the oneness of God, we affirm and believe God is one, however we are not so arrogant as to confine the definition of the word one to be anything other than what the Scripture says about it. I challenge you to read the Gospel of John with a heart prostrated to God and ask Him to reveal Himself to you hIOExpectedMKDisk. I appreciate the fact that you are willing to spend time learning your religion and ask you to use that same zeal one step further my friend.
May God lead and bless your efforts……
August 30th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
@Charlie
In the Quran there were references/uses to/of the term Spirit which I may classify in two classes :
in the first class, the term is used followed by the “of” and can not be thought without it.
Thus, it is said the spirit of God, the spirit of man etc.
As for the other class, that term is used standalone :
the Spirit. (Without the “of something or of someone”).
In the second class, the term refered to the favored angel Gabrael whom God honored with the task of talking to prophets and righteous men.
It is in this sens that I tried to reconcile the Spirit part of your Trinity, in order to tell you that it is distinct from the One God and that the personified Spirit is n’t but the angel Gabriel who met with saint Mary, with Jesus, with Mohammed and soon will meet with the hidden Imam to tell him that his sorrow has come to an end and that it is now the day that he gains and exerts the leadership he was given and that no one will be able to take it from him, since today all he will ask from God will be replied.
And of course, God does not need Gabriel. Gabriel is not part of God. He is but a creature. He will die by the hands of the angel Azrael, the angel of death, after this latter already have been ordered to kill all who stayed alive. Then God will tell Azrael to die, then God will be alone and will ask when no one is alive :
Who is God ? Who are those whom you pretend to be their Gods.
Then the angel will be resurrected, humans be resurrected and that is the Day of Judgment.
August 30th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
I found it interesting that the video said that the Jesus of Christianity not the real Jesus. The sun disk/sun worshipper comment is actually a lie common in many cult groups and a popular designation within the Hebrew roots movement. The thing is the “Sun disk” typically found around Jesus and other saints isnt actually a sun disk, it is the light of God and a sign of respect for the Lord. Remember Jesus said “I am the light of the World”. And “you are the light of the world.” The Sun disk thing is a falsehood used to pull people out of the church. The Islamic deception will be powerful, many of the fringe Christians will be led astray as well. Very sad. Stand firm!
August 30th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
hIOExpectedMKDisk,
Okay so youre comfortable with the Spirit of Allah being distinct from Allah yet if indeed this is Allah’s Spirit this Spirit must be eternal. Now we need to understand from an Islamic perspective the eternality of the Quran. It is my understanding that at least the Sunni and perhaps the Shia also believe the Quran to be the eternal word of Allah. Before time, space and matter were created the word of Allah could not have been material so must have been spiritual. Now at the proper moment in history the eternal spiritual word of Allah became part of physical creation in the form of a book and in the hearts of men. Now consider only God can be eternal and if God always has had His Spirit and His Word you have the beginnings of understanding the Trintiy of the Christian faith.
Jesus was the eternal Word of God who at the right time(Gal 4:4) became flesh and lived among His creation. The closest way I can think of explaining who Jesus is to you is to give an imperfect example by using your quran.
hIOExpectedMKDisk I hope this has helped at least some, please take my challenge to read the gospel of John with a heart bowed to God seeking His truth,…………. God bless and lead you.
August 30th, 2009 at 7:13 pm
Chris Zeller - thank you. That was bothering me as well. I am frequently shocked at the depths some people will go to read more into what is there just to prove that it is wrong in one way or another.
August 30th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
@Charlie :
I understood your example. I confirm that Jesus Christ is a word from God but he is not God :
“O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not “Three” - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.” Quran, 4:171
Quote :
” please take my challenge to read the gospel of John..”
I didn’t even find the time to memorize the Quran. I read fragments from here and there and my current devotion regarding religion is with learning the Farsi language in order to access the Shia documents and books. But I take the extra mile in singular discussions which remain my main source of knowing new things in a summarized, concise form.
August 30th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
Whoa, hIOExpectedMKDisk, you’re on late today. How are you?
Hey, what do Muslims believe Jesus’ purpose and message was during His time on earth?
August 30th, 2009 at 9:01 pm
Yes it’s 3 am, time to sleep. I will tell you tomorrow.
August 30th, 2009 at 10:16 pm
Hey guys, I’m back from a long weekend without internet access. I see there has been a lot of activity.
hIOExpectedMKDisk said:
I have read every word of the Qur’an. And, I see that you don’t even have time to read the book of John as Charlie asks of you. Don’t you think you could debate your points better if you knew the Bible more?
What does the Qur’an say for you to do? (I’m sure you know…)
It says: (Yusufali) Surah 10:94. If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.
Why does your Qur’an tell you to question the people of the “Book”? — the books of the Christians and Jews.
Are you afraid to read the Bible?
August 30th, 2009 at 10:22 pm
hIOExpectedMKDisk,
You said:
I’m sure you know of this Middle Eastern saying:
“Your words are the daughter of your thoughts and the daughter of your lips.”
Are you saying that your words are not who you are?
Your words are what define you. They make up your being, your thoughts, your emotions, your character, your attributes, your nature. Your words are who you are.
August 30th, 2009 at 10:32 pm
hIOExpectedMKDisk,
Sorry for so many messages, but here is one more you you to think about. (I would be happy to discuss any of the messages in more detail.)
You, being a good Muslim, know that there are 99 names for Allah.
One of the names of Allah is the “Lover”. Another is the “Seer”, another is the “Hearer”, and another is the “Speaker”.
Does Allah change? I can guess that you would answer NO.
Do the qualities and characteristics of Allah mentioned in the 99 names of Allah change?
Is Allah self sufficient? (Meaning that he doesn’t need man to give him his attributes). I assume you agree Allah doesn’t need man to assign him his attributes if you are a good Muslim.
So, going with something that Charlie had you thinking about…
Then if Allah doesn’t change, and his character doesn’t change, then before the creation of the world, before the creation of angels, before anything existed, who did Allah hear? Who did Allah see? Who did Allah speak to? And, who did Allah love?
August 30th, 2009 at 11:03 pm
hIOExpectedMKDisk,
I’m sorry again, but there is one more thing to comment on…
Mishael asked you if you were made up of a body, soul, and spirit. But, you did not answer her. You answered with a discussion of the differences that you see in the Trinity.
Can I bring the question back to you and have you answer it this time?
Are you saying that you are exercising “excess in religion” if you believe that you are made up of a BODY and a SOUL, yet you are ONE person? We can even drop the SPIRIT if you want to debate that. You are still made up of at least two parts. You can’t deny that.
If you do deny it, then you can’t be a Muslim and believe in the events that are supposed to happen after your death. You would be denying the truths you see in Islam.
August 30th, 2009 at 11:58 pm
hIOExpectedMKDisk,
With all due respect, as a fellow seeker of truth, it does not appear to me that you have done any actual research on the historical reliability and accuracy of the Bible and the claims of Jesus, outside of what Islam and the Quran teach you.
For instance, the Quran’s claim that the early followers of Christ changed the original text is refuted by the fact that there are over 25,000 early manuscripts of the New Testament in existence today, many of which were written within 100 years of Christ’s life. These manuscripts match each other nearly perfectly. No other book throughout history comes close to this kind of accuracy nor number of early copies. (The next closest is Homer’s Iliad, with 643 surviving copies…and they are still 400 years after the original)
There are also many sources outside of the Bible, such as Tacitus, a first century Roman historian, Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian (AD 117-138), Josephus, a Jewish historian(AD 37-100) that confirm the early Christian beliefs of Jesus’ claim to Deity and his crucifixion and resurrection.
The most important question that you will answer in your life is “Who is Jesus Christ?” Is He the Jesus of Islam, with little more significance than a title? Or is He truly who He claims to be? The Son of God, who gave His life as an atonement for our sins.
CAUTION: Dig a bit deeper, my friend, before you answer that question
StopSharia
August 31st, 2009 at 9:35 am
@Perdonado
Quote :
“I have read evry word .. And I see that you do’nt even ..”
Yes that is right.
this also joins the words of StopSharia :
“it does not appear to me that you have done any actual research..outside of what Islam and the Quran teach you..”
and it is right too.
If these facts are such I can’t have the right to debate over that which I do not have
a complete understanding and reading then I will stop mentioning the bible
and only limit discussions to Quran.
As for the verse 10:94, I do’nt see in it what conflicts my behavior. I am not in doubt of
the Quran, I am not surprised that God has again sent a new messenger to whom he revealed new words, thus I didn’t find myself in the need to ask the people of the Book and read of the
past miracles and past messenger to know that indeed there were previous revelations.
And as for the term
“Are you afraid to read the Bible”
I wo’nt deny it : I am so. My personal view of those who altered the scriptures is that their
endeavor to corrupt the book was so miticulous as their hate of saint Mary and their
envy of Messenger were so great. The goal is to mislead people, to derail the essence of faith.
Quote :
“Your words are the daughter..”
Of course I am not my words. Today I can say something, tomorrow I can say something opposite.
Quote:
“Sorry for so many messages..”
There is no pbm if we are both believers with the intent of attaining truth.
It is only that, since the discussions can go this deep and the list become very noisy in term
of opened subjects, I hope that the site creator sets up a threaded commenting system.
Quote :
“You, being a good Muslim, know that there are 99 names for Allah.”
I also believe that the Mahdi will inform us of the 100th name.
Quote :
“Then if Allah doesn’t change …, who did…, who did etc”
As a muslim I am ordered not to think of what God is (the order of the messenger and the Imams that followed him). But I am asked to meditate his
majesty, his creations :
“When the sky disintegrates, and turns rose colored like paint” Quran 55:37
( http://answering-islam.com/warda.jpg )
Trying to understand what God is, is a disbeliever path, since the creature can’t access the essence of her creator. We can only reason on God’s names within the limits of our world. Moreover, that who is the seer can’t be so unless there is a one to be seen, that who is the speaker can’t be so unless in the presence of a one to be spoken to, etc that is really something
I disagree with.
August 31st, 2009 at 9:51 am
In the bible the hebrew makes it clear hear oh Israel the Lord , the LOrd our God is one . the hebrew for one is ( Echad ) do a study on what this word means .
Rasuljacob .
and by the way above you said abraham was talking to nimrod well this is impossible since they didnt live at the same time .
August 31st, 2009 at 9:52 am
Quote :
“Can I bring the question back..etc”
Mishael wanted that I confirm to him that I am made up of three part while being a “one” so that I believe
in the trinity. I didn’t reply because evenso I can say yes of what I am, God is not three.
I still didn’t explicitly see the term trinity in the Bible but you are saying God is three.
In Islam narrations tells us God has 100 names(in some, 99) each one is like an attribute of God
but inspite of that we never say God is a 100inity or a 99inity.
That is like to say God has three parts or that there are three Gods forming one part.
The goal behind this would be to mislead people, mislead them in their faith.
Because God is a one so that no one else can equate to him and so that he is the only one to deserve our prayers and worship.
All others are creatures even the messengers and the angels he sends.
When man falls in a disaster, he can only beseech the one.
@
There is a verse in the Quran that I forgot. It speaks of how the blasphemy that the son of Mary is God has grown.
It was one word then become a common concept by the acceptance of people who surrendered to the idea that God would begotten
and be risen among them then die for their sins.
God has, instead created the earth and made us on it so each one will be doing that which both his freedom, and logic will allow him
to do then each one will be judged according to his past deeds. That is justice.
Quote :
“The most important question that ..”
He is a prophet, a messenger even if his form is to be believed something above normal humanity.
Quote :
“The Son of God, who gave His life as an atonement for our sins.”
I am only responsible for my sins. That is also the message in the Quran. Evenso our lives seems to be very interdependent, each one is playing
a separate game : no one will bare the sins of the other and no one will take the goods of the other.
August 31st, 2009 at 9:53 am
@Mishael
Quote :
“So who do we believe? The one that came first, or the one that claims the first was corrupted?”
If you claim to be Christian, you know that your bible wasn’t the first revelation.
Second, the Quran does not claim that the Bible of the Christians was corrupted, it rather says it has been corrupted.
Quote :
” So who do we believe?”
We should believe in them all and follow that which abrogates the others.
Quote :
“what do Muslims believe Jesus’ purpose and message was during His time on earth?”
A messenger, the purpose and the reiterated messages of all prophets, apostles, imams and messengers : that we should worship God, only him.
“And when Isa son of Marium said: O children of Israel! surely I am the apostle of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat and giving the good news of an Apostle who will come after me, his name being Ahmad, but when he came to them with clear arguments they said: This is clear magic” Quran 61:6
Then came Ahmad (P&PBUH) with a book that says :
“Say: He, Allah, is One.
Allah is He on Whom all depend.
He begets not, nor is He begotten.
And none is like Him” Quran 112.
That’s all, simple. uncomplicated.
August 31st, 2009 at 10:24 am
hIOExpectedMKDisk, why do you keep saying that Mary is hated by those who “corrupted” the Bible? There is no evidence of this in what you claim as “corrupted.” In fact, she is very clearly called “highly favored” and is told that the Lord is with her (Luke 1:28). Never is she treated with hatred in the Bible. Whoever told you that was a liar and/or misled.
I find it sad that your god doesn’t want you to search and know who he is. As finite beings inferior to God, we cannot understand everything about Him. It is impossible. But that does not mean we cannot learn anything about Him. The God most of us serve here on this board delights in making Himself known to us. He gave us our curious minds to explore the unknown, including Himself. If He and His words cannot stand up to scrutiny, then how can we trust Him to be who He says He is? He is a God of reason (Isaiah 1:18); He asks for our faith in Him, but not blind faith. Blind faith can easily be deceived. The Bereans were commended for comparing the words they heard from Paul with what the Scriptures said to make sure it was true (Acts 17:11). If your prophet Mohammad or your god Allah cannot withstand such scrutiny themselves, then how do you know you are not being deceived?
A vital part of having a relationship with someone is getting to know them. Our God wants a relationship with us. One day He plans to live with us, and we will finally get to see His face (Revelation 21:3-4; 22:3-4). Jesus has gone to prepare our place with Him in His Father’s house (i.e., God’s house), that we may be with Him always (John 14:1-4). This is the hope that we have. We know He loves us because, “Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:13), and this is what Jesus has done for us (1 John 3:16; 4:9-10). Therefore, if we accept who He is and what He has done, we know our sins have been forgiven and that He will take us to be with Him. There is no doubt.
August 31st, 2009 at 10:40 am
hIOExpectedMKDisk -
Quote:
“If you claim to be Christian, you know that your bible wasn’t the first revelation.”
Actually, no, I do believe that the Bible is the only written revelation from God. Please note that the Bible consists of the Old Testament (history, Law, and Prophets) and the New Testament (Gospel and letters). They go together and reveal the full plan of God from the beginning of time to the end. One does not “abrogate” the other due to corruption of the first like the Quran claims to do.
Quote:
“Second, the Quran does not claim that the Bible of the Christians was corrupted, it rather says it has been corrupted.”
Same difference. I meant that as of today, Muslims consider the Bible to be corrupted, while there is no evidence of this except the word of the one who “abrogated” it.
Quote:
“We should believe in them all and follow that which abrogates the others.”
How can you trust any of the words of the previous ones if their words have been corrupted? I find this very dangerous, especially if you live on blind faith.
Quote:
“A messenger, the purpose and the reiterated messages of all prophets, apostles, imams and messengers : that we should worship God, only him.”
Nothing about living a holy life? Nothing about repenting of sin? Nothing about restoring a relationship with God? Nothing about who He is and where He got His authority? Why then all the baptizing and healing and raising from the dead? Why all the teaching and parables and all the opposition He faced if He was merely telling people to worship God?
August 31st, 2009 at 11:06 am
Great point Mishael.
How can you grow in a relationship with someone that you cannot question?
(Yusufali) Surah 33:36. It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.
(Yusufali) Surah 24:63. Deem not the summons of the Messenger among yourselves like the summons of one of you to another: Allah doth know those of you who slip away under shelter of some excuse: then let those beware who withstand the Messenger’s order, lest some trial befall them, or a grievous penalty be inflicted on them.
(Yusufali) Surah 3:131-132. Fear the Fire, which is repaired for those who reject Faith: And obey Allah and the Messenger. that ye may obtain mercy.
How can you question someone (Allah/Muhammad) that you fear retribution from?
We don’t have this fear in Christianity or Judaism to question God and to learn more about Him.
1 Thess. 5:19-21 (NIV) “19 Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; 20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good.”
NAS “19 Do not quench the Spirit; 20 do not despise prophetic utterances. 21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;”
What did the Berean’s do when they heard the message, the Good News, from Paul and Silas…
Acts 17:10-11 “…they went to the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.”
These people found the TRUTH in the Jewish scriptures. That is the Torah (Taurat) and Psalms (Zabur).
If the scriptures were corrupted, then when were they corrupted? After Paul preached the news of God coming in the form of man as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of mankind?
The message the Paul brought would have surely have been faulty by that time if the scriptures had changed.
Was it before the sacrifice for the sins of the world?
Then how did the Taurat and Zabur and other scriptures of the Jewish Bible predict the coming of the sacrifice up to 700 years prior to the event?
Can you tell me when the Bible had been corrupted?
August 31st, 2009 at 11:18 am
My last comments are directed towards hIOExpectedMKDisk…
August 31st, 2009 at 12:27 pm
hIOExpectedMKDisk,
By your comments;
“it does not appear to me that you have done any actual research..outside of what Islam and the Quran teach you..”
“”and it is right too. If these facts are such I can’t have the right to debate over that which I do not have
a complete understanding and reading then I will stop mentioning the bible
and only limit discussions to Quran.”"
and
“Are you afraid to read the Bible”
“”I wo’nt deny it : I am so. “”
It appears that you are more a blind follower of Islam than a seeker of truth. Most of us on this site (although certainly not all Christians) question the validity of our own religion and beliefs…which our own scripture tells us to do, as Perdonado mentioned.
Personally, my own beliefs in the accuracy of the Bible and the truth of Christ’s claims have only been strengthened through my search.
I understand that it can be very scary and difficult living in an Islamic country and culture, where you are discouraged from questioning the teachings of Islam…and where apostasy is punishable by death.
Did you ever stop to think that fear is actually the enemy of truth? Fear is actually one of the most powerful tools that satan uses to prevent people from seeking and finding the ultimate truth. Nowhere on earth is this more evident than the Islamic world.
I encourage you to stay on this site and debate. I know that God can use the seeds that are planted here to spread His truth. Also know that many of us throughout the Christian world are praying for you and all of our Muslim neighbors.
StopSharia
August 31st, 2009 at 1:30 pm
hIOExpectedMKDisk,
You said:
Are you made in the image of Allah?
You admit that you have multiple parts that make you a single (ONE) person.
Are you NOT made in the image of Allah?
Here is what your Hadith say:
September 1st, 2009 at 12:49 am
very interesting discussion. and that video made me laugh. really? invoking lord of the rings to try and illustrate eschatology? SHALLOW!!!
September 1st, 2009 at 1:10 am
I’m surprised they used parts of a story written by a Roman Catholic (i.e., Tolkien) to support their point of view, some of the very people they bash in the video. *rolls eyes*
September 1st, 2009 at 7:47 am
@Perdonado, @StopSharia,@Michael
@Perdonado
Quote :
“Are you NOT made in the image of Allah?”
Yes I am, but why would I want to go in the interpretaion of that which I would not be sure (if not able) to understand ?
@StopSharia
Quote :
“It appears that you are more a blind follower of Islam than a seeker of truth.”
Yes I am blind follower but when it comes to texts, verses and messengers sayings, then I am cautious and try to make effort in interpreting things.
Quote :
“Did you ever stop to think that fear is actually the enemy of truth?”
Yes it is, naturally.
@Perdonado :
Quote :
“How can you grow in a relationship with someone that you cannot question?”
If God is my creator and if he is the All Knower then surely he knows
that I can grow so. Some issues are complex, and some divine
decision are meant to be without a humanly apparent logic : the goal being :
who is the believer and who is the disbeliever.
Quote :
“Then how did the Taurat and Zabur and other scriptures of the Jewish Bible predict the coming of the sacrifice up to 700 years prior to the event?”
Because they are the books of God.
Quote :
“Can you tell me when the Bible had been corrupted?”
I can’t. The Quran at least tells us of two kinds of people :
1.people who were displacing words and verses of original books
2.people who create new “things”.
So the one who believe in the Quran should take his distance from the current bible.
Unless comes the Mahdi who will reveal the two books from a place near Syria.
(by the way which he will use as a proof for the people of the Book for the truth of Islam
but most will not believe and hence the expected war)
@Mishael :
Quote
“Nothing about living a holy life? Nothing about repenting of sin? [..]”
Worshiping God encompasses all of that. Even work even marriage, even sleeping,etc when all performed in right way they become a form of worship.
Quote :
“A vital part of having a relationship with someone is getting to know them. Our God wants a relationship with us.”
we know God : he is the one who created this world. But the details..my reply to Perdonado then yields itself.
“One day He plans to live with us”
Becareful that is the False Christ, the One-Eyed man, he will live among us and will claim to be God. Jesus Christ will kill him, but that
might be when it is too late, ie after some have believed in the False Christ, the God-man.
We will see the face of God, not evryone and not in this life. It will be on heaven for those who manage to get there as told by the Messenger (P&PBUH)
September 1st, 2009 at 10:42 am
hIOExpectedMKDisk -
Quote:
“Yes I am blind follower but when it comes to texts, verses and messengers sayings, then I am cautious and try to make effort in interpreting things.”
Apparently not if you’re not willing to read the book of John, which really isn’t that long. :/
Quote:
“Some issues are complex…”
Yes, so why can’t you accept this from us when we say some things cannot be fully comprehended by us (i.e., the Trinity) and yet still be true?
Quote:
“we know God : he is the one who created this world.”
That is merely knowing what God is. That is not *knowing God*. I can know that my father is a computer systems analyst, but if I don’t spend time with him, talking with him, being with him, seeking him, I won’t know *who* he truly is as a person. God wants us to truly know Him, not as some far off creator/judge-type being, but as intimately as a father and child, as friends, as siblings, as husband and wife. Each of these relationships we experience here on earth reveal certain aspects of our relationship with God as it was meant to be. That’s why He uses such comparisons throughout the Bible.
Quote:
“Becareful that is the False Christ, the One-Eyed man, he will live among us and will claim to be God. Jesus Christ will kill him, but that
might be when it is too late, ie after some have believed in the False Christ, the God-man.”
I do not serve a One-Eyed man, so you don’t need to worry about me being deceived. I know whom I serve, and He will not be killed by anyone. I am concerned for you, though. Seek the truth and do not follow blindly. If you really seek the truth, don’t be afraid to read what you already consider God’s word (the Gospel).
Quote:
“We will see the face of God, not evryone and not in this life. It will be on heaven for those who manage to get there as told by the Messenger (P&PBUH)”
You’re right, it won’t be in this life. (I didn’t say it would be.) It will be through eternity. And it will only be those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
September 1st, 2009 at 5:23 pm
@Mishael
Send me a link to an online, easy-to-read english version of the Christian bible.
Quote :
“so why can’t you accept this from us when we say some things cannot be fully comprehended by us (i.e., the Trinity) and yet still be true?”
No I didn’t accept the trinity for the reason it is complex, nor that when you told that man is formed by three parts while being a “one” that I denied that. Rather I accepted it but never accepted the inference that would say God is likewise a trinity.
God is one, for the absence of that which he said in the Quran would happen were there many Gods.
You said the names of those who will enter paradise are previously written in the Book of life. Your belief in this confirms you are a believer, but to reply and to give you an example of why we can’t and we shouldn’t try to understand what God is, what the essence of him is, then let imagine a person who would ask you what justice is it that the names of those who will enter paradise are written in that Book of life.
Will you be able to make him comprehend it, the divine justice ? As believers we are ordered to believe that God is Just. Even if we are also ordered to believe that
1. It is already prescribed what evryone will do
2. It is already prescribed if the one is to enter the Paradise or to to enter Hell
3. Evryone will enter Hell and Paradise according to a judgment based on his deeds.
Do not be concerned for me but I would benefit from your prayers if you do so that I be among those who will avoid the fire.
http://www.al-islam.org/kaaba14/14.htm
(Read paragraph that begins with “While he was a prisoner” : you can just hit Ctrl+F then type the words) (It is about the father of the Mahdi).
September 1st, 2009 at 5:45 pm
hIOExpectedMKDisk,
I have a couple of challenges for you…
1). Please read any part of the Bible and try and prove it wrong.
2). Pick your favorite verse from the Bible. (And I will pick my favorite verse from the Qur’an).
3). Pick your LEAST favorite verse from the Bible. (And I will pick mine from the Qur’an).
I await further discussions…
September 1st, 2009 at 6:44 pm
Perdorado,
may be that is not a right thing to do. First, there’s a lot of subjectivity, second it is never a matter of confrontation of the two books. It is a matter of us, being two believers and wanting to know where lie the authentic truths.
Let me tell you of a thing :
When the Messenger (P&PBUH) was teaching the Quran to the Fist Imam (PBUH), he was making him recite each verse, and know to what of the following class belongs each one :
1. Verses said to be the “Mothers of the book” (literal traslation from arabic) this means that they form the principles and contain explicit unquestionable truths and orders
2. Verses said to be “Mutachabih” sorry my vocab fails to find a word. Ie verses that can be interpreted in different ways. You will see disbelievers use these verses in order to gain the interpretation they want.
3. Verses said to be “circumstatial”, thus it is not possible to use them for generalization.
they werer sent for specific thing, thus they are valid for a particular space and time.
Unfortuantely they buried that knowledge : killed Ali, killed his two sons, the son of his son, the son of the son of his son, the son of the son of the son of his son, the son of the son of the son of the son of his son, the son of the son of the son of the son of the son of his son, the son of the son of the son of the son of the son of the son of his son , the son of the son of the son of the son of the son of the son of the son of his son , the son of the son of the son of the son of the son of the son of the son of the son of his son,
and they tried to kill the the son of the son of the son of the son of the son of the son of the son of the son of the son of his son, the Twelve Imam, the mahdi.
Thus for you to know, if jews are killers of the apostles, then arabs whom i am one, are killers of the imams.
Note that I wo’nt say no for your challenge. but since I didn’t read the bible, that you read the Quran, then tell my of the worse verse of this latter and I’ll try myself to give you what it is.
September 1st, 2009 at 9:30 pm
Dear hIOExpectedMKDisk,
here is a link where you can read the Bible online:
www.bible.logos.com
The NIV or NLT are easy to read versions. Klick on the different versions and see which is best for you.
Quote
Do not be concerned for me but I would benefit from your prayers if you do so that I may be among those who will avoid the fire.
This quote just breaks my heart. I am sure you are a very devout Muslim and try very hard to please Allah. And still you can never be absolut sure if you will make it to heaven and not go to hell.
The Christian Bible teaches that nobody is good enough to go to heaven, we all have sinned and offended a Holy God. There is nothing we can do to ever erase all the offences that we already have committed, no amount of good deeds, we all deserve hell. Our righteous God cannot allow sinners in His presence.
The solution of our problem lies in the Gospel of John 3:16:
For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
Because God loves us so much, He send His Son Jesus Christ into the world to take on Himself the punishment of death that we deserve (a substitute for us) so that we can be saved and do not have to go to hell if we put our trust and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Only Jesus was able to do this because He is perfect, without sin.
There is no other way to heaven. But when we put our faith in Jesus, He forgives us all our sin because He already paid for it. He bought us with His precious blood. I accepted Christ about 10 years ago, now I don’t belong to myself anymore but to Him and I live my life to worship and serve Him and one day I will be with Him forever. I can know this for sure because it doesn’t depend on my good works (they could never make up for the sins I committed) but on what Christ did for me.
I will pray for you hiOExpectedMKDisk that the Lord God Almighty would help you to understand this Truth. And I would like to challenge you to pray to God as well to show you the Truth. It wasn’t until I prayed to God to show me the Truth that I could even understand the Bible.
PS: Let me know if you get through on the above link or if it is blocked by your govenment. There are many more websites where you can read the Bible online.
May God bless you and give you everlasting life,
Tina
September 1st, 2009 at 9:32 pm
hIOExpectedMKDisk, I provided a link earlier to an online version of the Bible:
www . blueletterbible . org
(without the spaces, of course)
The automatic translation is King James Version (KJV). My own Bible is NIV, but I also sometimes use NLT or NASB. You can also use NKJV.
You may also go here (this one may be easier):
http:// bibleresources.bible.com/ bible_read. php
(again, without spaces)
Pick a version (for example, New Living Translation - NLT), and the list of books and chapters should be on the next page. From there you can pick and choose. It has already been recommended to read the book of John (different from 1 John, 2 John, 3 John), and I concur. I’ve been reading through that particular book myself lately (as I’m sure you’ve noticed
).
And hey, yeah, I will definitely keep you in my prayers, that you will be among those who avoid the fire.
Quote:
“No I didn’t accept the trinity for the reason it is complex, nor that when you told that man is formed by three parts while being a “one” that I denied that. Rather I accepted it but never accepted the inference that would say God is likewise a trinity.
“God is one, for the absence of that which he said in the Quran would happen were there many Gods.”
I agree that God is one - the Bible is clear on that. “Trinity” stands for “tri-unity”, three-in-one, not three separate. It still emphasizes one God. It also flows with God referring to Himself as “we” and “us” (Genesis 1). Various verses I’ve read quoted from the Quran also have Allah using “we” when referring to himself. Why is that?
Quote:
“You said the names of those who will enter paradise are previously written in the Book of life. Your belief in this confirms you are a believer, but to reply and to give you an example of why we can’t and we shouldn’t try to understand what God is, what the essence of him is, then let imagine a person who would ask you what justice is it that the names of those who will enter paradise are written in that Book of life.
Will you be able to make him comprehend it, the divine justice ?”
I can’t make anyone understand anything, really, but I can tell him that God made it very clear how to have your name written in the Lamb’s Book of Life - accept the Lamb (Jesus) as your Savior (John 1:29, 5:24; Acts 4:12, 16:31; 1 John 5:12; and many more).
God’s justice is so great that only by the sacrifice of one who is completely pure and sinless can sin be paid for. The only One who is completely pure and sinless is God Himself. We stand no chance if we try to pay for it on our own; it will not satisfy true Justice. We have no hope apart from God. Since God is Just, we cannot expect Him to contradict His nature by letting some sin go by merely because it’s been “outweighed” by good works. It must be paid for one way or another. Because we don’t stand a chance and because He does love us more than anything, He has taken the payment on Himself.
It’s like a parent who has a child who has gotten himself into terrible debt. The child has no possible way of paying the debt; it’s way too much for him. Even if he worked the rest of his life constantly, it wouldn’t come close to paying for it. The parent knows that the only way to rescue the child from the bondage of debt is to pay for it himself. Because he loves his child, he offers to pay for it - all of it. But it’s up to the child to accept that payment humbly and joyfully, reject it and try to work to pay it off on his own, or ignore it and pretend there won’t be a day of reckoning.
Does that make sense?
Also, on a slightly different topic, how do you reckon that the Bible has been corrupted? I could understand it if the corruption brought glory and reward (women, possessions, power) to someone other than God. However, the things written about Jesus - even as they speak of Him being the Son of God - point to glory being given to the Father as a result of what He has done through His Son:
“Jesus answered, ‘My teaching is not My own. It comes from Him who sent Me. If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether My teaching comes from God or whether I speak on My own. He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.’”
(John 7:16-18)
“‘I am not possessed by a demon,’ said Jesus, ‘but I honor My Father and you dishonor Me. I am not seeking glory for Myself; but there is One who seeks it, and He is the judge.’”
(John 8:49-50)
“Jesus replied, ‘If I glorify Myself, My glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the One who glorifies Me. Though you do not know Him, I know Him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word.’”
(John 8:54-55)
“After Jesus said this, He looked toward heaven and prayed: ‘Father, the time has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You. For You granted Him authority over all people that He might give eternal life to all those You have given Him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent. I have brought You glory on earth by completing the work You gave Me to do. And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world began.’”
(John 17:1-5)
“Our attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
but made Himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled himself
and became obedient to death–
even death on a cross!
Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place
and gave Him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.”
(Philippians 2:5-11)
And so on and so forth.
September 1st, 2009 at 11:24 pm
hIOExpectedMKDisk,
I will take you up on the challenge. But, one question for you first…
Do you believe that Jesus was WITHOUT any sin?
September 1st, 2009 at 11:48 pm
hIOExpectedMKDisk,
Here is my LEAST favorite verse from the Qur’an:
It is obvious why I have a problem with this. Without this sacrifice, then there is no concept in Islam for atonement. This is that atoning sacrifice by His blood that washes away sin. There is nothing that we can do by deeds on earth to earn us a free pass into heaven. The only concept of sacrifice in Islam is that in which you give up something you desire to become a better person. It is all on your shoulders to carry the burden of your sins. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Here is my LEAST favorite verse from the Bible:
You see, it pains me to think that there is going to be a movement on earth so powerful that many, many people on earth will not clearly understand or be able to comprehend the TRUTH and be deceived. And, this powerful influence has its source from demonic realms. I would like everyone to experience the love that God freely gives those that He calls. And believe me, He is calling all people. The God of the Bible doesn’t want anyone to perish (John 3:16). He is not like the god of the Qur’an. Allah mislead who he wants to mislead. It is even stated that he blinds unbelievers. This doesn’t sound like a god that loves all mankind.
September 2nd, 2009 at 12:24 am
WOW!!!
The exchange between hIOExpectedMKDisk and the others here is the highest form of scholarly discussion I’ve seen on the subject of Islamic versus Christian eschatology anywhere online. Kudos to everybody participating. It’s way over my head to chime in.
Dear hIOExpectedMKDisk, you sound like such a good man. I feel compelled to pray for you. I echo what someone else here said about Muslims they’ve met in SoCal. The ones I’ve met in SoCal are some of the most decent, hard working people I’ve ever encountered. It pains me to think they have not discovered, and regrettably may never discover, Christ before their window of opportunity (life on earth) passes.
There are so many ironies about all of this. In my opinion, overall, Muslims are actually more devout about their religion that most Christians are about their religion, but ironically Muslims are following a false religion. I sometimes wonder if this represents mankind’s nature to rebel. Muslims are more devout, but rebel against the true God, Christians honor the true God, but rebel by being less devout. Interesting irony.
Another example, the Hebrew religion can be characterized as being very conservative, so Jews rebel by being politically liberal. Christianity is a very liberal (i.e., forgiving) religion, so Christians rebel by being politically conservative. Again, mankind showing its predisposition to rebellion (?)
Still another example. For the most part, Christians don’t fully understand their faith because they rebel against understanding that “the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed” and Jews don’t fully understand their faith because they rebel against understanding that “the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed”. Again, mankind showing its predisposition to rebellion (?)
September 2nd, 2009 at 8:05 pm
Armageddon,
Good to hear from you again. Interesting take on rebellion, and I’d have to say you have something there.
September 3rd, 2009 at 2:56 am
hIOExpectedMKDisk, a question: by chance are you a SHIA MUSLIM?
September 3rd, 2009 at 6:11 am
As always, Satan mixes in much truth with small powerful lies. Yes, the Catholic Jesus with the sun behind him is a paganised Jesus in a paganised church that does not preach the gospel. Yes, the Illuminati are probably real and there is a grand western conspiracy that the antichrist may rule over. So when these things are more fully exposed, the authors of this film and other Muslims like them will say “we told you so” so now you will believe us. But what they portray as Christianity, whether paganised or culturalised, is not true Christianity as taught in many Protestant churches. Only the Word of God can set these poor deceived Muslims and the cultists free and may He do so.
September 3rd, 2009 at 5:35 pm
I’t NOT the SUN behind JESUS, QUITE THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE!!!!!
If JESUS IS THE LIGHT WHY dont’ REPRESENT IT?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Iconoclasm
The Byzantine Iconoclasm (Greek: Εἰκονομαχία, Eikonomachía) refers to two periods in the history of the Byzantine Empire when Emperors, backed by imperially-appointed leaders and councils of the Greek Orthodox Church, imposed a ban on religious images or icons. The “First Iconoclasm”, as it is sometimes called, lasted between about 730 and 787, when a change on the throne reversed the ban. The “Second Iconoclasm” was between 814 and 842. Iconoclasm, Greek for “image-breaking”, is the deliberate destruction within a culture of the culture’s own religious icons and other symbols or monuments, usually for religious or political motives. People who engage in or support iconoclasm are called iconoclasts, a term that has come to be applied figuratively to any person who breaks or disdains established dogmata or conventions. Conversely, people who revere or venerate religious images are derisively called “iconolatres” (εἰκονολάτραι). They are normally known as “iconodules” (εἰκονόδουλοι), or “iconophiles” (εἰκονόφιλοι).
Iconoclasm may be carried out by people of a different religion, but is often the result of sectarian disputes between factions of the same religion. In Christianity, iconoclasm has generally been motivated by an “Old-Covenant” interpretation of the Ten Commandments, which forbid the making and worshipping of “graven images”. The two serious outbreaks of iconoclasm in the Byzantine Empire during the 8th and 9th centuries were unusual in that the use of images was the main issue in the dispute, rather than a by-product of wider concerns.
As with other doctrinal issues in the Byzantine period, the controversy was by no means restricted to the clergy, or to arguments from theology. The continuing cultural confrontation with, and military threat from, Islam probably had a bearing on the attitudes of both sides. Iconoclasm seems to have been supported by many from the East of the Empire, and refugees from the provinces taken over by the Muslims. It has been suggested that their strength in the army at the start of the period, and the growing influence of Balkan forces in the army (generally considered to lack strong iconoclast feelings) over the period may have been important factors in both beginning and ending imperial support for iconoclasm.
(…..)
DO WHAT THEM DID!
September 3rd, 2009 at 7:44 pm
It turned out that the Spirit is not the angel Gabriel !!
It is the assertion of the first Imam, contradictory to what most if not all muslims know about the confusion between the Spirit, or holy spirit and Gabriel.
a man came to the first Imam asking him about the Spirit whether he is/is not Gabriel. The Imam said Gabriel is an angel and he is not the Spirit. The man said you are saying something big ( and bad), no one said it before. The Imam replied : you are a person who is confirming sayings of people who do not know then he cited two verses from the Quran, the last of which speaks about the fact that God will make angels descend by means of the spirit. (meaning that angels are certain creatures and the spirit is an another creature) :
“He sendeth down the angels with the Spirit of His command unto whom He will of His bondmen, (saying): Warn mankind that there is no God save Me, so keep your duty unto Me.” 16:2
This is the translation I picked from quranexplorer but the “with” is incorrect, rather the adequate term should read “by means of” or “using”.
This verse that was cited by the First Imam to prove the is unlike all other verses that reference the term Spirit alongside the term angel or angels.
I repeat, the term “with” is incorrect.
I ‘ve found this by chance while reading about the Imam Mahdi in the following URL :
http://www.shiaee.com/vb/showthread.php?t=73114 (it’s arabic, but it where I got the speech that occured between the First Imam and the other man).
September 3rd, 2009 at 7:51 pm
hIOExpectedMKDisk,
So now you believe that the Spirit is not the angel Gabriel. From the Qur’anic passage, it states that the Spirit is God’s command. Don’t you find that very interesting?
Also, do you believe that Jesus did NOT SIN at all in His time here on earth?
September 3rd, 2009 at 8:01 pm
How do I know ??
September 3rd, 2009 at 8:03 pm
@Paolo
Yes I am, I have become.
September 3rd, 2009 at 8:16 pm
@Perdonado :
I can see why 4:156 is the least favorite verse. If Jesus wasn’t indeed crucified
as the verse tells, then Jesus didn’t pay for your sins.
“This is that atoning sacrifice by His blood that washes away sin. There is nothing that we can do by deeds on earth to earn us a free pass into heaven.
”
Of course Islam is against what you say. God forgives sins, and for those who repents
and come to him, there is even a verse or saying that tells
he will takes all their previous sins and makes them count as if they are good deeds !!
I realize I can’nt dispute with you over 4:156. Since Jesus is for you a God, a part of God
or let’s say a divine being then his apparition after the so called crucifixion can’t be used to prove that in reality he wasn’t killed, that in reality he was saved by the one God, rather a normal plausible resurrection of himself.
September 3rd, 2009 at 8:45 pm
@Perdonado
Quote :
“The God of the Bible doesn’t want anyone to perish (John 3:16). He is not like the god of the Qur’an. Allah mislead who he wants to mislead. It is even stated that he blinds unbelievers. This doesn’t sound like a god that loves all mankind.”
God loves mankind : he created evry man and gave him the ability to think, he gave him earth, he sent to him Messengers to guide him and he promised the heaven for him if he believes in God, avoids sins and do good deeds.
God does not love those who disbelieve, those who refuse the truth, the laws and those who oppress others.
Some kind of people reason by thinking that time is a saver for them : they easily resign to the temptation of committing a sin today, and make a plan to repent tomorrow.
“Allah mislead who he wants to mislead.” makes this logic obsolete. one sins today, the sin affects his heart, the way he thinks, the way he will act in the future since God will pave the way for him to be able to commit what he wants.
The first Imam said : he who commits a sin looses a part of his head (meaning his mind) that will never come back again.
September 3rd, 2009 at 8:51 pm
@ Mishael, @Tina
Thank you both for the links, they are accessible. I already embarked on Genesis.
September 4th, 2009 at 1:00 am
So you have i guess, Icons of Ali-Ibn-Talib in your room?
I ask this just because as a catholic I have been classified “idolatre”
by some acid-drenched KRISTIAN (Loveless anyway) FUNDAMENTALIST (Curious their reprobation does not address against ORTHODOX CHURCHES, from a doctrinal point of view the two teachings sound almost IDENTICAL)
and I know you are branded the same way by SUNNI and WAHABI scholars….
September 4th, 2009 at 6:51 am
hIOExpectedMKDisk,
Search your Hadith and you’ll find that Jesus was WITHOUT sin. Even Muhammad acknowledged that he, himself, was a sinner and the Jesus was NOT a sinner and never committed sin.
September 5th, 2009 at 9:01 am
@Paolo
That is true.
@Perdonado,
I am still looking for the “Hadith” but if I remember well, it was at least prophet “Yahya”, the son of prophet Zacharias (who took care of saint May).
I am not sure but I think “Yahya” did not commit any sin till untill his disappearance.