Jewish Sanhedrin Meet With Adnan Oktar: Update
(Originally posted July 7 here) Last week, three representative Rabbis from the Israeli Sanhedrin (Jerusalem Court for Issues of Bnei Noah) traveled to Istanbul to meet with Adnan Oktar also known as Harun Yahya. A public statement was (re-)released today and may be read in full at TheSanhedrin.org If you did not see or read my recent interview with Mr. Oktar in Istanbul, then watch or read that here. For those who study and watch for the soon coming of the Messiah, this statement contains (in my opinion) some fairly dramatic signs. If you decide to comment on this post, as I have requested before, please use grace and wisdom. I have been enjoying a very friendly and warm dialogue with folks from the Sanhedrin for the past few weeks. And while I have clearly articulated to them my deep reservations, cautions and general views of Islam, I also sympathize with and understand their reasons for seeking conciliation and partnership with men like Adnan. They are just trying to serve G-d according to the best of their understanding etc. Even if I am in disagreement with the specific approach, I respect the men and honor them for their character and efforts. Initially the statement was posted on the Sanhedrin web-site but then almost immediately removed. The reason for this was simply because they decided that before officially releasing such a statement, it was best to bring the matter before the court of the Sanhedrin for a vote. This has been accomplished and acceptance of the statement has been passed by the majority. Go directly to the Sanhedrin web-site to read the statement. But one significant concluding highlight of the statement may be read below:
Plan of peace
Out of a sense of collective responsibility for world peace and for all humanity we have found it timely to call to the World and exclaim that there is a way out for all peoples. It is etched in a call to all humanity: We are all the sons of one father, the descendants of Adam, and all humanity is but a single family. Peace among Nations will be achieved through building the House of G-d, where all peoples will serve Him, pray to Him, and offer sacrifices according to the visions of the prophets, as foreseen by King Solomon in his prayers at the dedication of the First Holy Temple. Come let us love and respect one another, and love and honor and hold our heavenly Father in awe. Let us establish a house of prayer in His name in order to worship and serve Him together, for the sake of His great compassion. He surely does not want the blood of His creations spilled, but prefers love and peace among all mankind. We pray to the Almighty Creator, that you hearken to our Call. Together - each according to his or her ability - we shall work towards the building of the House of Prayer for All Nations on the Temple Mount in peace and mutual understanding.
July 23rd, 2009 at 8:04 am
Joel,
Yes indeed this statement contains some fairly dramatic signs.
An important question is what impact Sanhedrin have in Israel? On religous establishment? On politicians?
If they have power to influence, this is it.
July 23rd, 2009 at 8:41 am
Wow…
Just,
Wow…
Joel!
It seems like you are in the Thick of Things!
I pray for your protection and for you to be given the Courage and Strength to fulfill all God has for you to do in this Arena.
It’s kind of strange (and humbling), for me to know someone God is using on a global level on such a pivotal issue - and it is truly encouraging to know that you are a ‘real person’ and not someone hiding behind a ‘Holier than Thou’ facade.
It gives me hope that God truly can use each of us in ways perfectly tailored to our personality, experiences, skills, gifts, strengths, and even weaknesses.
Thank you for continuing on with this!
July 23rd, 2009 at 8:57 am
The Seven Mitzvos of Bnei Noah (seven noahide laws) mentioned in the Sanhedrin article have the effect of making it illegal to worship God or
to pray to Him in Jesus’ name, with a mandatory death penalty for committing this “crime” …
(eg) hamikdash.com/Rambam.html
The Responsibilities of the Gentiles:
What does G-d require from the Gentiles? How can they achieve a moral life in this world, and the rewards of the world to come?
First we will present a synopsis of the commandments which are applicable to all of the Gentile nations, and then we will present a
detailed explication.
Seven Commandments for the Gentiles, called the Sheva Mitzvos B’nei Noach:
The Path for Gentiles to Enter into the World to Come and to Avoid the Flood of Immorality in this World.
1. No worship or prayer to anyone except G-d. No images of G-d. No prayers to intermediaries. G-d is one, not none, not two, not three, not many.
(snip)
7. Must set up law courts to judge on the other six. All seven are capital crimes. If the country does not set up courts to judge on the other six and to punish transgressors with death, then all of the inhabitants who could do anything about it are punishable.
July 23rd, 2009 at 8:59 am
It makes me sad!
July 23rd, 2009 at 9:03 am
I keep wondering how this might connect with what Erdogan is doing in Syria currently.
July 23rd, 2009 at 10:31 am
Mullah Lodabullah is incorrect.
People like to quote Maimonides (Rambam) to scare people.
Modern Jews follow the “Shulchan Aruch”, not the rulings of Maimonides.
Also Jews do not say Christianity is the same as idolatry as mentioned in the Bible.
http://en.wikinoah.org/index.php/Christianity_and_Noahide_Law
July 23rd, 2009 at 11:47 am
What Water said, Joel.
July 23rd, 2009 at 12:00 pm
[…] Läs också bloggen Joels Trumpet! […]
July 23rd, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Just my observation after recalling Joel’s interview with Mr. Oktar when he humbly concurs that as far as physical appearance goes, he himself fits the profile of al Madhi. The man most definitely has the ‘look’ of distinction and nobility; just how I would expect a great world ruler to appear physically. Just an observation and I’m not implying anything.
July 23rd, 2009 at 1:03 pm
This statement from the Sanhedrin concerning Israel, the Temple, the noachide laws”, nations coming to bow down before the G-d of Israel,
etc is also interesting … ultimately, the nations will bow down to Jesus
Christ, but before that, Antichrist will sit in the temple of God, showing
himself to be god, & demanding to be worshipped as god (etc)
thesanhedrin.org/en/index.php/Hachrazah_5769_Sivan_25
Statement from the Beit Din of the Sanhedrin to the People of Israel and to the Seventy Nations
[The courtyards of the Temple – and not the nucleus – are a house of prayer for all the nations that will come to bow down before the G-d of Israel, the one G-d who created heaven and earth.
We call upon the People of Israel and all of the nations to help establish the house of G-d , the G-d of Israel, on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem, known as the Temple Mount, in the exact location of the original Temple and to bring offerings to the G-d of Israel according to the religious laws.]
July 23rd, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Mullah Lodabullah,
Obviously, while I may disagree with certain theological distinctives of modern Judaism, I certainly sympathize with the goals of the Sanhedrin in this regard (Tikkun Olam - healing the world) and choose to pray for and support all Jewish people rather than accusing them of dark and sinister plans as your comments do. I can assure you that the Sanhedrin have no evil designs to make Christianity illegal or to kill Christians etc. Rather it is these kind of comments from Christians that hurt these who have already suffered so much hostility and false propaganda from Christians in the past and to this day. There is so much anti-Semitic conspiracy theory based material that floats around there on the web. Please be very careful when making comments about things that you learn about on the internet. Please do not take this comment as a personal attack, but rather a word of caution and call for a Christ-like love and charity. In an age when many Christians are re-awakening to the Jewish / Hebrew roots of their faith and Christian repentance movements are doing much to heal the wounds of the past, ill-informed comments like this are not at all helpful.
Bless you,
Joel
July 23rd, 2009 at 6:10 pm
Amen Joel. Amen
July 23rd, 2009 at 6:30 pm
Mullah Lodabullah makes a point which I won’t ignore and here’s something to think about. The original persecutors of the church were the Jewish religious authorities. It is my belief that any truly ‘religious’ person anywhere who truly seeks God will be led by The Holy Spirit to Jesus, so when we encounter religious authorities of any persuasion falling shot of this truth, I have to wonder how truly they are seeking truth. Anyone who claims to be seeking The Almighty should be heading towards Jesus and if they aren’t then they have some other motive apart from truth alone.
July 23rd, 2009 at 6:58 pm
Chris,
Of course the Sanhedrin do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah. But that is not at all what this is about. It is about being truthful and accurate when speaking about other people. To make an innacurate statement that someone has plans to kill Christians based on some blurb on the internet is just plain wrong and worthy of correction.
Now, many Christians believe that when Jesus / Yeshua returns in the clouds, the Jews will look upon him and mourn when they recognize the identity of their Messiah. Until then, Paul says that G-d has allowed them to undergo a spiritual blindness to the identitiy of the Messiah and the truth of the Gospel - specifically for our sakes. If you have been saved by grace, and not based on your own good heart or motives, then likewise it would seem fair to pray for the Jewish people rather than ascribe evil motives to them. Of course, the statement, “Seek and you shall find” is certainly true. But it does not say that if you have a pure heart and good motives that you will be a Christian. Many are indeed seeking and we can be confident that they will indeed “find”. This is the promise of G-d. Until then, we can only speak truth in love, clearly articulating the Gospel of the Kingdom that Yeshua preached and long for the day when all of the remant of Israel will be saved.
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!.. Consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” Romans 11:11-12, 18-27
Blessings,
Joel
July 23rd, 2009 at 8:39 pm
Ben says “Modern Jews follow the “Shulchan Aruch”, not the rulings of Maimonides.”
The Sanhedrin is apparently unaware of Ben’s statement, for they say,
in some blurb on the internet (on the Sanhedrin web site):
thesanhedrin.org/en/index.php/Psak_5767_Tevet_6c
What are the Seven Laws?
Q. What are the Seven Laws?
What exactly are the Torah sources for the seven laws? In what manner are non-Jews obligated by these verses in the Torah? (Oral tradition? Rabbinic teaching? Reading the Torah directly? etc)
Answer. The “Seven” laws, as has been well documented, do not cover all the requirements, as the Talmud explains after briniging the source which lists the seven. There the Talmud explains that the list does not contain the positive requirements. The source is Oral Tradition. As in many other cases, there is some disagreement about exactly which are the negative precepts which apply to Bnei Noah.
The summary of the Rambam is: Prohibition of: Idolatry, Blasphemy, Murder, Certain prohibition on Sexual Intercourse, Theft, and Social Order supported by Rule of Law (in Kings 10,11 the Rambam says that “Bet Din of Israel should judge the Naohides or appoint Noahide Judges), and Ever Min HaHai: eating flesh which was cut from a live animal. [Kings, 9,1] In addition the Rambam lists the prohibition of Kilayim [Kings, 10,6]
July 23rd, 2009 at 8:55 pm
Joel,
Thanks for sticking to the Word.
July 23rd, 2009 at 10:56 pm
Joel: I agree with everything you said except: “But it does not say that if you have a pure heart and good motives that you will be a Christian.” …………I have to affirm in my mind that the logical biblical conclusion is that anyone with a pure heart and good motives will become a Christian even if The Lord God has to send an angel to instruct them at the highest mountain or darkest jungle.
July 23rd, 2009 at 10:59 pm
Who is kidding who? The Jews are a wonderful people until you get to the point of proselytizing. It is at that point that you discover how the majority identify being a Jew as being synonymous with rejecting Christ as the Messiah.
If you point to the prophets, you discover that many focus on the Torah and not on the prophets. Thus, by ignoring the books of the prophets, they conveniently disparage the arguments that Christians use to point to Christ as being the Messiah.
I would take issue with Joel’s assertion on the following comment: ” Until then, Paul says that G-d has allowed them to undergo a spiritual blindness to the identitiy of the Messiah and the truth of the Gospel - specifically for our sakes.”
Paul did not say that G-d has allowed them, what Paul said is that God has allowed them. The idiotic man-made traditions invented by the Jews of supposedly holding the name of God to be so sacred as to shorten the word ‘God’ goes contrary to the teachings of Paul who openly wrote the word used to denote God in the Greek. Besides, if you have ever heard some of the vile and blasphemous names some of the Jews have used when referring to Christ, you would immediately come to realize the hypocricy and stupidity of claiming to honor the name of God by shortening the word to denote God. As Christians, we believe Christ to be God and One with the Father.
There is a price to pay for everything in life, including a price to clinging to the truth that there is no other way to be saved other than through faith in Christ. I would encourage Chris to stick to his assertion,and who sees the contradiction of claiming to seek truth and not being led to Christ as a consequence.
As for myself, I am not willing to pay the price of being part of some ecumenical movement of treating other faiths or religions as being equal with the infallible truth of Christianity in stating Jesus is Lord. It is the truth that sets us free. And if you are not willing to confess the truth with your mouth, then realize that the alternative is to confess a lie. And it is on the basis of confessing and/or believing a lie that the world will take part in the powerful delusion that will overtake mankind in the end of times.
July 24th, 2009 at 1:58 am
nobleday is repeating an old slur on Jews
“Besides, if you have ever heard some of the vile and blasphemous names some of the Jews have used when referring to Christ, you would immediately come to realize the hypocricy and stupidity of claiming to honor the name of God…”
This is not true, see
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesus.html
July 24th, 2009 at 4:10 am
A reflektion:
Seems to be more suspicions regarding the jews than the muslim. That´s characteristic for our self-righteous christianity.
July 24th, 2009 at 4:27 am
Really Ben? Evidently you have not visited the Jerusalem Post site and read some of the accounts of what some Messianic Jews are having to endure at the hands of the Haredi, because they are accused of seeking to proselytyze.
By the accounts given by Jerusalem Post itself, the Haredi were more than willing to take part in some of the vile and blasphemous names that the web site that you refer to says the Jews do not take part in.
Not even the Muslims are willing to use some of the vile names used by some of the Jews when referring to Christ. Considering that Jews have been a minority in practically every country they have gone to in the past 2,000 years, it is logical that they would be hesitant to put something in writing that could have been used against them as being anti-Christian or anti-Muslim.
But having rejected any notion of Christ to have been the Messiah, or having a divine nature that would have made him our Lord and our God, it is also a fact that there are supposed Jews, past and present, who show no compunction in referring to Christ in vile terms.
There are supposed Jews that would slander Christians by seeking to turn them into criminals in passing out Bibles and Christian literauture to those who claim to be Jews, on the pretext of offering them a financial enticement to convert. If they in fact want to normalize relations with Christians, then let them get rid of their anti-missionary laws that would make criminals of those who would seek to bring the good news of Christ even to those who call themselves Jews.
July 24th, 2009 at 4:49 am
nobleday, what you say is not true.
Should someone trust what Christians do based on whatever is writen in Time magazine or the National Enquirer? I am sorry you believe mistruths. I pray that you will be given the opportunity to meet some devout Jews in person.
July 24th, 2009 at 5:46 am
Chris,
My point is that G-d does not save us because he looks down and chooses those with the best hearts or motives. He calls us by His grace - His unmerited favor. Then, also by His grace, through the Holy Spirit, He changes us. This was all I meant.
July 24th, 2009 at 6:16 am
Nobelday,
It is true that some Orthodox Jews in Israel have been harsh toward “Messianic Jews”. There was even recently a riot in Beer Sheva fomented against some Messianic Jews by the Orthodox. As a result of events like this, I know that some Messianic Jews in Israel live in fear of their own brethren. That said, this is not “Jews” but some certain Jews. And I must point out the context: This type of persecution often comes from a fear that Messianic Jews are actually secret “converts”. Converts to a Gentile religion whereby the Jewish identity will eventually be lost. While this is not true, it comes from fear, not religious imperialism. Now, that said, there are many idiotic Christians out there that have said some amazingly asinine and hateful things. Let those men be criticised for what they have said or done, but not all Christians. Likewise please everyone, I am requesting it again, please use charity, love and wisdom here.
I may have to turn off the comments on this post…
July 24th, 2009 at 9:47 am
Joel, did you remove my comment? I didn’t think there was anything wrong with it but please point out to me if you thought there was.
July 24th, 2009 at 10:31 am
May I offer another perspective as to what I see happening here. You have opposing points of view obviously, but instead of turning off the comments why not use the opportunity to correct wrong thinking. I am not sure if what has been said here is true or not, however because it has been brought up it will certainly cause me to do some research. I know the internet is full of spurious websites and many of them have as their only agenda to promote hatred for the Jews. However I also know that the Messianic believers in Israel have been treated badly at least to some extent and I need to investigate that further.
I guess to sum up my opinion is that hatred is best exposed when it is given an opportunity to manifest itself regardless of which side it exists.
July 24th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Jew.. Muslim… Gangster… Drug Dealer… Christian…. Atheist… are they not all made by the hands of our Mighty Creator? Regardless of what each individual believes, they were all made by our Father for a special purpose. If He loves them all, and is patient enough for even them to be saved, what gives us a right to judge, criticize, and put them down? Are we better than God, now? Is this something Yeshua would do? Did He not sit with the sinners? Didn’t He come for the lost and not the saved? Wouldn’t He leave 99 sheep to save 1, and carry that one back home? If we have Yeshua in us, we have His characteristics, not criticism.
We have prayer. Don’t like what someone does, says or is; Pray for them and love them. Does it not say to love your enemies? Does it not say to overcome evil with good?
What good is there in talking bad about others? Criticizing them? Putting them down? No good.
Am I going to have to tell you guys like I do my children: If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all
July 24th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
The comments have been left on.
Stuart. I did remove your comment. I asked for grace and wisdom to be used in any comments. Even if some of what you said was technically “true”, it contained an absolute lack of either or these. And I apologise, but I am not going to discuss it any further.
July 24th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
Joel, why do you write G-d, when you have always written God, what’s up with that? you know Joel, clearly, they will hate you because of His name sake, Christ name, and who He is and represents will always lead you in the path of rejection from those who supress the truth in unrighteousness. Write no G-d, but GOD!
July 24th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Joel, love is action, and you know I do love you, but I must say I do disagree with your staement”Even if I am in disagreement with the specific approach, I respect the men and honor them for their character and efforts” According to Encarta dictionary this is the definition of respect” a feeling or attitude of admiration and deference toward somebody or something” and to say that you also honor those man! Blessed is the man that honor those who fear the Lord! This man from the sanhedrin, and Adnan Oktar have NO FEAR OF THE LORD whatsoever! what are we to admire in those who reject the Lord and the nails and the cross and the spear piercing His side? I pray for them BUT I WILL NEVER RESPECT THEM OR HONOR THEM! see the definition of respect” admiration” how can I admire those who are trying to pervert the truth for a gain, yes they have been blinded by satan, but I am sorry I will not res[pect their views or Honor their efforts, this will be an afront to my Lord and Savior.
Like I say tou know of my care and love for you brother but I can not stomach this comment, so I went public. May the Lord forgive me if I am wrong, but He knows well my heart. God bless you brither, I continually pray for you and your safety and for courage and strength from God.
July 24th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Well maybe you could show me some grace and wisdom Joel, your attitude towards me has been most ungracious for some time.
July 24th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Joel Says:
July 24th, 2009 at 5:46 am ……..I believe that God calls everyone because it is his will that none would perish. And while it is through his grace that we are saved, we do have to repent in truth. I thoroughly believe that anyone seeking truth with a right heart comes to Christ and all the devils in hell are powerless to stop it. Any person, and especially those who espouse a ‘religious’ life that don’t recognize the divinity of Jesus have a serious core problem, and have in some way rejected truth (he is the truth)….I say this in all love and sincerity without the slightest bit of malice intended.
July 24th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
While its impossible to say all Jews and Muslims hate (and would kill) Christians there is no doubt that some that have and will.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykmv7s-Q0J8
July 24th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
elisha, you say “May the Lord forgive me if I am wrong, but He knows well my heart.”
Don’t you think everyone’s different views come from conviction in their hearts? Your view is from conviction in your heart - be it right or wrong. Joel’s conviction, Adnan’s, everyones. God does know each and every one of our hearts. So let’s stop this insanity and truely have love, grace, mercy, peace, and honor towards one another, regardless of our opposing views.
What if we all stop for a moment and imagine this: what would we do or think of a person if he/she were in heaven with us when all is said and done? What if Adnan were standing right next to us in Heaven praising Adonai? Would we turn and look at him with eyes of “what are you doing here, you don’t belong”? NO we wouldn’t! So why do we do it now?
Let us show love, mercy, kindness, and honor! Yes. As Joel has said. Why is it wrong to show respect and honor? When I was yet a sinner, Yeshua died for me. I was a most terrible person! He showed respect and honor to little ol’ undeserving me! Why can’t I do the same for my neighbor?
July 24th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
My last posting came out wrong. I’m replying to what Joel posted at 5:46 am. Everything after the statement “I believe that God…” are my words not Joels just to be clear.
July 24th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Wendy:If Adnan doesn’t repent and receive Christ as his savior he won’t be in heaven period. Furthermore it is our DUTY to proclaim that there is salvation in no other name but Christ’s regardless of whose feelings we may bruise. Anything short of showing people their failure and need before God is NOT showing love or courage on our part………….Of course tactfulness is a good tool when guiding people, but only a tool to soften the offensiveness of The Glorious Gospel.
July 24th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Joel,
We are to love and share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with all mankind. When you are doing that there will always be battles but that is the way it is supposed to be. Just stay true to God’s word and let the devil take the low road.
The low road is always traveled by those who harbor hate and promote discord. It is the same spirit that has always sown hate!
We don’t always have to agree with each other but we are to do so in a honorable manner, which you have always requested. Sometimes our ungodly side comes out in our remarks and for that all we can do is ask for you to forgive and then move on. But those people who persist in denigrating the efforts of the Jewish people towards achieving peace with all those who reside in Israel are in danger of falling into the judgment of God and that is something to be fearful of.
It was God’s intention that foreigners be respected and treated with respect when they were in a foreign country. Israel included in this:
As a nation, Israel had to respect the rights of aliens living in her midst. As individuals, the Israelites had to go further. The command to love your neighbor (Lv 19:18) was extended to the foreigner: ‘When an alien lives with you in your land, do not ill-treat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt.’ (Lv 19:33-34 cf Dt 10:19)”.
Love your neighbor as yourself; love the alien as yourself. From these two commandments we can draw two conclusions: the alien is also a neighbor, even though he may not share our background, culture and religion.
Secondly, if the Israelites had to take special care of the alien because of his particular circumstances, so we should show greater understanding and concern for the alien living in our midst. Aren’t we all aliens in this world?
Shalom,
Grany
July 24th, 2009 at 2:24 pm
Wow! This is wonderful. There are still hardcore Christians who adamantly insist that they have the true path to salvation. The apostle Paul would have been adamantly opposed to any sort of ecumenical movement with those who regard Christ to merely be a prophet inferior to a supposed prophet that was neither Jew or Christian. He would also have been opposed to an ecumenical movement with those who would not recognize Jesus as Lord, Savior, and God.
I think Elisha and Chris seem to know that the basic requirement of the Gospel is loyalty and faith towards our beloved Lord Jesus Christ.
The temptation to reach out to a greater audience has the real risk that you begin to adopt some of their customs and before you know it you find the heretical teachings that can trace their source to those who are alien and opposed to the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
There is a denomination that calls itself the “mother church” that clearly got entangled in pagan and alien practices that had nothing to do with the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. But what it did have to do with was to reach out to a larger audience. Unfortunately that wider audience turned out to be pagan and mostly ignorant in regard to spiritual matters.
July 24th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Of the 36 comments above, very little of what has been said pertains to the eschatalogical implications of the discussion betweem Oktar and the Sanhedrin, specifically the rebuilding of the temple. Somehow everybody got dragged down a rabbitt trail that has led us all to focus on something completely different. This is very surprising and somewhat dissapointing to me and it reveals that the enemy is sowing seeds of discord among the brethern. I’d like to humbly ask that eveyrbody prayerfully consider “tabling” or shelving your opinions about the side issues that have produced so much heat and very little light so far on this thread and limit yourself to discussion of the main point, which is … the very BIG realty that for the first time an Islamic leader is calling for and supporting the building of the temple on the temple mount. We are missing the big picture here… and in the process, I can’t help but think we are alienating many who read this site - many who are from differnt faith backgrounds, some who are seeking. What we are engaged in here needs to be understood as having both a “teaching component” by which our debate reveals truth and an EVANGELISTIC component whereby those outside of Christ read what we write and are drawn to the TRUTH. Please, lets conduct ourselves in a manner which accomplishes both.
July 24th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
well we must remember that just as God has called many Gentiles and some jews which more will follow the Bride of Christ is made up of all kinds of people and ethnic groups and have many back grounds also so does Satans Bride many people , many ethnic groups and they also come from many different back Grounds his Bride is a Harlot whore who decives even the elect of us and yes in the bible it does say something to the effect of your Father the devil and yes it does say some say there jews and not ect ect but lets put it into context who was he talking about ???
NOT ALL Jewish people and thats for sure Jesus himself is Jewish his disciples were all Jewish so its not an ethnic thing at all !!!!! please lets be fair the devil has fooled many people Wide is the Road and Broad is the path to Hell remember this were all in this together .
Rasul Jacob
July 24th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
James, David (Your IP address shows that you are the same person posting under two different names),
I removed your post claiming that “Jews do hate Jesus”. Such general comments are beyond asinine.
July 24th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
David Crisp, Rasul, GreatGranny, Wendy, etc…
Thank you for your words and maturity.
Blessings, Joel
July 24th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
To a few others:
This has nothing to do with compromising on the exclusive claims / “offense” of the gospel. This is about refusing to participate in spreading false information, name-calling, stereotyping, racism or general anti-Semitism. It is about presenting what you believe in a spirit of humility rather than outright arrogance or rudeness bordering on socially stunted behavior. If you are unable to see my point on this and feel adamant that any effort to be gracious and wise equate with being unfaithful to God, my response is very simple:
I am asking that you no longer post on this site. I have no desire to associate with you. Please go elsewhere to express your thoughts.
Sincerely,
Joel
July 24th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
It is truly a delicate thing to discuss theology, even among professing Christians. Some of the most vile comments I have ever read were Christian on Christian. I’m sure you will find the same among people of all faiths, even those who profess they have no faith.
It takes the patience of Job to hear out someone else who has views contrary to issues you feel passionate about, and detrimental to ones relationship with G-d.
Feeling one is wrong in the eyes of G-d is a fearful thing if you truly fear him. But don’t you trust G-d to help you out here? Should Christians fear to listen to Jews for fear they will convert us, or Jews Christians? Should we fear to read the Qu’ran?
One thing is for sure. We owe it to our brother Paul (even Christ himself), who loved his people more than his own life, not to offend his brothers. Even as Pharaoh helped save the brothers of Joseph because he “believed” Joseph, thus saving his people too. We can be respectful and not be too quick to judge. If we think back we can remember a time when our eyes were closed.
The Muslims believe the same way Christians do when it comes to a later spiritual enlightenment. I feel for what I believe to be good reasons they are wrong, but I can respectfully allow his questioning of my reasoning. I do not feel threatened by his Qu’ran. So try to keep this in mind and not be too easily offended by what your faith teaches as being blasphemous.
If you are respectful and knowledgeable in the subject, you may even spark an interest that convenes the other person to search you out.
The best way to do that is to hear him out without taking offense, with faith as flint. If he wants to change the subject, let him.
Trust the Word, as the seed. Only G-d can make it grow in his own time. We don’t help the process if we pour all the seed in a pile, and must accept the fact that, when we scatter it, some will not reach good ground.
And Jews, Muslims, try to understand evangelism is the core of the Christian faith. To ask a Christian to stop is to ask him to disobey his Lord. Forgive us if we get caught up in the zeal, I highly doubt any of us really mean you any harm.
July 24th, 2009 at 6:02 pm
Chris,
I understand what you are saying. But again, I would highlight Romans 11 as the key to understanding the present state of the unbelieving Jewish people. (Those who do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, that is). They have a calling that in my opinion, no other people can claim: A promise that they “all” (who remain) will be saved when He appears. It is the same story that all of the prophets are telling.
Bless you,
Joel
July 24th, 2009 at 6:37 pm
Couple of points: that passage about salvation coming to the Gentiles to provoke the Jews to jealousy has always bothered me a little. Do we think that the actions of evangelicals and some of the trends (praying to candles is one example) are acts that will provoke the Jews to jealousy? At some point, the Lord turned to the Gentiles, but I think that at some point, very soon, he will turn back to the Jews.
I personally long for the day when Hosea 5 and 6 are fulfilled, and the Jews cry out for the Messiah to return, and he will in response to their pleas. And then all Israel will be saved.
July 24th, 2009 at 9:51 pm
The greatest tragedy of all is not the apparent anti-semetic statements allegedly made by a few believers regarding this posted story. It is what many in the evangelical circles are not doing for the Jewish nation-preaching to them the gospel of God. There is such an obsession with the doctine of Eschatology and how the church might play an important part in bringing the return of her Messiah, that there are those who welcome the news of this coming together of the Jewish nation with a prospective anti-Christ figure ( e.g. Adnan Oktar working with the Sanhedrin). They believe, in so doing, that it will hasten the coming of Christ who will then convert masses of the Jewish nation simply by their seeing Him at His second return. Nothing could be farther from the truth! The Jewish nation needs to hear and believe the gospel, like all people, in order to be saved. Otherwise His warnings in the parables of Matthew 25 become irrelevent!
Shame on us! The Roman Catholic church has turned its back on the Jewish nation by its leaders publicly stating that it will not officially seek to
proselytize them to the Christian faith. John Hagee and others are doing much the same by showing their “support” to Israel by throwing lots of money and moral support but not mentioning a word to them about repentance and faith in Christ to be saved. And all of this for the self-centered motive of hastening the coming of their Lord. May God have mercy on those who are caught up in this horrible deception. Let’s not be gripped by the “times and seasons which God has set by His own authority”. Let us preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to them or the “sons of the kingdom will perish”.
July 24th, 2009 at 11:08 pm
Greg,
“The greatest tragedy of all is not the apparent anti-semetic statements allegedly made by a few believers regarding this posted story. It is what many in the evangelical circles are not doing for the Jewish nation-preaching to them the gospel of God.”
The Church today is filled with tragedies. On many levels. But in this context, my question is where has anyone here said or inferred that Christians should not invite anyone to become a follower of Jesus / Yeshua?
Also, just my two-cents… I might be crazy, but if followers of Jesus / Yeshua want Jewish people to accept him as their Messiah… I’m guessing that making brazenly anti-Semitic comments are probably not going to do much toward that goal…
But maybe just declaring that Jews want to kill Christians, that “Jews hate Jesus”, or calling them “sons of Satan” and so forth really is the way to go… Forgive my sarcasm here, but these are all things that were said on this thread by Christians and it has deeply grieved me, specifically because we are supposed to be the ones who stand up against this sort of thing. I’m sure you understand where I am coming from.
Bless you, Joel
July 25th, 2009 at 4:12 am
Hagee is wrong. The RCs are wrong.
However, recognizing the eschatalogical trajectory that all Israel will be saved (Greg: if you read the end of Hosea 5 and beginning of 6 you will find that it’s conversion and their cry that brings back the Messiah) and longing for that to happen DOES NOT lead one to think that the gospel does not need to be preached to the Jews. At least it shouldn’t and it does not in my case. Indeed, I think many ministries that take seriously the phrase “to the Jew first, then….” are laying the groundwork. And, they are having a great impact. I can’t find the site, but have heard a number of people cite it that even one of the rabbi associations have stated that more Jews have come to the Messiah in the past 20 years than in the previous 1900 combined.
Yea, I’ll admit, people get lazy about evangelism for all sorts of reasons, but, Greg, I think you paint with too broad a brush.
July 25th, 2009 at 3:48 pm
There once was an old man who was walking along a seashore filled with starfish which had been washed ashore. Thousands and thousands of them lined the shore, struggling to make it back to the water in which they lived. A small boy who was walking toward the beach saw the old man throwing the starfish one by one back into the water.
In amazement the boy approached the man and said to him: “Excuse me sir, but there are thousands and thousands of starfish on this seashore! Do you think that you could possibly make a difference? It seems rather hopeless and most of them will surely die!”
The old man looked up as he threw another one back into the sea and said to the boy, “I made a difference to this one.” He picked up another starfish and threw it in, “and to this one… and to this one. Imagine the difference we could make if instead of criticizing we would work together.”
And together, the old man and the boy continued to return the starfish to the sea.
July 25th, 2009 at 5:41 pm
Joel,
I love the jewish people, as a matter of fact, I am part as you know of an effort to demostrate that only the Jewish people have a legitimate claim to the Holy Land, and that they are indeed God’s chosen people, proven by prophecy, historical facts and current events. But, having said so, to openly disgree with the Jewish Orthodox community in this great effort to rebuilt a temple where even Muslims and anyone will feel cozy worshiping a God that does not exist, an effort that ultimately will send them to hell, bring judegement upon them does not make me anti-semitic. I have been in Jerusalem, passing tracts to the jewish people that I love dearly, though blinded I know the Jews are the apple of God’s eyes, but my heart breaks to know how much they resist the truth, how much they do not want Jesus, how hard their heart is for the light of the world. I can only pray that God will send revival into those lands, and I want to be part of it, but I also know that preaching the truth will offend many, and if so, and even if we are rejected then we should pray even more that their eyes would be open.
I admire your love and commitment to God, I admire your courage for the things of God, and you have been an inspiration pewrsonally to persue higher goals in my chritian walk in regards to witnessing in a loving and feraless way, but I satnd but my earlier comments, we as Christians are to rebuke the works of darkness, and to be a light in this world, remember Jesus said as many as I love I chasten and Rebuke, so open rebuke is better than love carefully concealed, I wonder if the members of this commitee understands what a lake of fire feels like, or to be eaten by a worm that never dies, or be tormented for eternity in the presence of the very same lamb they are trying so desperetaly to discount as a mere fact of fiction, or whae will we feel when we see their faces summeging into a lake of lava, without no possibility of scape? would they thanks for being warm and accomodating, or would thay rather remember us as people who begged them to repent and beleive the Gospel at any opportunity.
The reality is, no matter how you slice it, Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”and this my friend will bring no peace, but a sword that will pierce your soul and mine, and theirs and everyone, and the time is coming soon when they and us will bow and confes Jesus as Lord, and I pray that the men at the Sanhedrin, Mr Oktar etc know Him before is too late.
I hope I can keep posting in this blogg, but if not, I will take my little faith with me to another place, though I really like it here, I have learned so much from everyone, specially you Joel, may God bless you always
July 25th, 2009 at 8:50 pm
Elisha,
Of course I do not want you or anyone to leave. Want I want is for everyone here to be loving and respectful of others. Of course, I do not want anyone to compromise their beliefs one bit. However, if we offend others, it should be because of the inherent offense of the gospel message, not because we are a rude, insensitive, racist or just plain mean people. A few here indeed fit this description. It was my responability to try to reign this in.
As far as any offense, I have none with you or anyone else to be honest. You seem offended at me for my use of “G-d” and because I said I respect some of the men with whom I have been in dialogue from the Sanhedrin. Again, as I said, while I disagree with this alliance, (which I have expressed) I do indeed understand why they feel it is necessary and respect their reasons for doing so. These guys are trying to do what they think God wants them to do. To me that is worthy of respect. Again, if this offends you or if my use of G-d offends you, or if my efforts to be sensitive to others offends you, then you must do what you feel necessary. With regard to my use of “G-d”, it wasn’t even something I had thought about. I appreciate the fact that you love me. I don’t know who you are, but I love you as well.
Be blessed,
Joel
July 25th, 2009 at 9:35 pm
For anyone willing, I encourage the listening of this:
http://elshaddaiministries.us/audio/torah5769/20090627t38korach.html
Click on the first play option, paying close attention to what is said at the end.
Maybe this will help those who don’t understand why some of us have so much love for the land of Israel and the people, even if they are unreceptive to Messiah. . .
The link above is not to compromise anyone’s beliefs in any way — or try to change them — but maybe so we can better understand where other people are coming from…
I hope I make sense and that someone will be willing to listen to what is said in the link above.
With love and blessings,
Wendy
July 26th, 2009 at 1:18 am
I will just say this plainly. If you are a true Christian and don’t have a deep-seated love for the Jews in your heart, some quiet time with the Lord is in order.
If you are a true Christian and don’t have a deep-seated love for the lost, regardless of their religion or lack of, it is time to search out that aspect of your new creation.
The deceived are deceived and it doesn’t matter what they believe, Jew, Muslim, or anything else. Jesus paid the price for all and it is our mission to express that love so others may receive the Lord from our witness, not be further burned by legalistic, arrogant, and accusatory badgering.
Discernment is necessary when considering those who are deceived versus those who are simply evil. The Lord said we are to be as peaceful as doves but wise as serpents. In other words, know the enemy and love the deceived.
Every word we speak or write is a seed planted, which is then in the Lord’s hands to cultivate. When you speak or write, think about what you are planting before letting the words escape you.
Who can tame the tongue? The Lord can. Hand it to him each morning and your days will be more productive for the Lord.
July 26th, 2009 at 6:53 am
elisha wrote:
I wonder if the members of this commitee understands what a lake of fire feels like, or to be eaten by a worm that never dies, or be tormented for eternity in the presence of the very same lamb they are trying so desperetaly to discount as a mere fact of fiction, or whae will we feel when we see their faces summeging into a lake of lava, without no possibility of scape?
The Truth is that Jews (as part of their current teaching) for the most part have no idea what sheol really is. They DO NOT know to answer your question.
I work with a street ministry. Prostitutes, addicts, alcoholics, you name it. Do I respect their behavior, even the drug dealers and sexual predators among them? NO. Do I respect those people as human beings not far from where I was at one time? Absolutely. I know their ‘lostness’. And it is mine to outlove their darkness the same exact way the Lord did for me while I was still in that very condition. The same applies to all. Love covers a multitude of sins.
If and when the Lord tells me to condemn others for what they believe, I will gladly do that and I tell Him so every single day. Until that time, I will love them with His love. I will do the same with Jews, Muslims, Hindu’s and maybe even witches as He leads me to it. He will love them through me because ‘I’ am dead.
I think that part of what is really being exposed here is the ‘controversy over Zion’. That IS and will be THE issue before us all in the days ahead. How we respond to that is what will determine how ‘dead’ WE are and how alive HE is in us.
He has shut up ALL in disobedience that HE may show mercy to all. And what are we to do with it?
Ro 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through YOUR mercy they also may obtain mercy. {believed: or, obeyed}
That will not come about from a self centered, self righteous church that does not know the deep connections between the church and Israel. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
July 26th, 2009 at 8:09 am
Elisha,
I just realized by your e-mail address who you are. No worries, I know your heart. We’ll talk later.
Bless you,
Joel
July 26th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Joel,
You are walking down a very dark path if you wish to disassociate yourself from some of your brothers because you have a difference of opinion as to what is rude or acceptable.
BEAR WITH EACH OTHER and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. (Colossians 3:13-14)
I have always tried to be graceful to others whilst being firm on specific doctrines; if I have erred I expect others to be loving enough to guide me right. But your comments have not been corrective, just downright insulting and dismissive. It’s time to take the plank out of your eye brother. We all have something positive to contribute, and cutting people out will only weaken this site. The body cannot exist without the eye, the hand, the foot… This may be your site, but it is God’s work, so be careful before expressing any further desire to see people cast out.
July 26th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
“Joel Says:
July 24th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
David Crisp, Rasul, GreatGranny, Wendy, etc…
Thank you for your words and maturity.
Blessings, Joel ”
My thanks also, and Water, Elisha, Screaming Eagle, you too Joel, sorry if I missed some others.
When I first read this article elsewhere my thoughts were this is the covenant, later to think it must surely be an important aspect of it. I had to step outside for a while to pray, and Honor our Lord God Almighty, as it seems His Word is coming to fruition. And who am I that I might be a witness to this ? What am I to do now ?
Psa 46:10 Be still and know that I am God………..
was impressed upon me. He knows my desire to serve Him even in that wonderful moment of my stillness. Today, this morning, I received a reply to my efforts within that desire and also within my ability to accomplish a good work through Him in me, this is so perfect for me, it’s so hard to imagine how a wretch like me could serve Him, but here it is ! I love Him so much for letting me do this, so off I go, I’m on it with all my heart, for the Lord’s sake. Our God is so Great !! to lead us to where we can best serve HIM .
Surely these are the times of His fulfilling His Word to us all. Shouldn’t our hearts be with Him in this ?
As for me, I’m off to find some ’starfish’.
We are so Loved !!!
God Bless you
David
July 26th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
Dearest Stuart,
“Your name means “Wise Steward and Guardian”. You are one who not only guards, but also protects and maintains the safety of the people or possessions placed in your charge. Others may see you as being just a little bossy because you pay attention to the smalles of details, but that’s only because everything is important to you. You are like a watchdog, in a sense. You may even appear to be stern and unmoving to some that do not know you very well, this is because you take life so seriously, and not from a lack of love.”
As one who Abba made to be a Wise Steward and Guardian, I ask in love that if the Joels comments hurt you in any way, you take those offenses to our Father. Let Him know how it made you feel to read what Joel wrote, maybe ask Him to allow you to see Joel through His eyes and help you to understand why Joel said what He said. Even if you feel you have done no wrong, it helps to come before the Almighty and ask Him to show you if you have done any wrong that you overlooked.
You are correct in saying that this site “is God’s work”, and you are also correct in acknowledging that “This may be your (Joel’s) site”. Which to me means that God initiated and gave this vision of putting this site up to Joel, and no one else. He has given Joel the authority over this site, and as such we are to respect and honor our authorities, especially when they are placed by God. If you were given authority over this site, Stuart, then you will be guided by God over how it is to be handled. As people who have been brought to this site by the Holy Spirit, or otherwise, we must submit under the authority of Joel that was given to Him by our Father.
If we feel Joel has missed it and is no longer abiding under the authority of Adonai, we pray for him to get back on track. If we continue to disagree with Joel’s decisions, then we do as Joel has suggested: leave. But we leave with love, honor and gratitude for what Adonai did for us while here.
It does us no good to continue bickering and arguing amongst us, brother.
You are well versed and know the Bible well, that is why I didn’t write out each verse to support my above statements.
May you continue to be that Wise Steward and Guardian, and may our Father continue to fill you with wisdom, knowledge and understanding.
In love I write this,
Wendy
July 26th, 2009 at 6:36 pm
Stuart,
My purpose was not to hurt or offend you. Sometimes administrating a blog like this is a little bit like shepherding a lonely heart’s club. Some indeed do find their primary sense of community at groups like this. This is okay and I try to respect this reality. I have also found that those who tend to be the most vocal and expressive often are the most sensitive. Every day roughly six to eight hundred people view this blog. You have found an outlet to be heard here in that for the past few months you probably have had more to say than anyone else, myself included. You often have great input here and I appreciate you for this. You say that I have been rude to you for sometime now. To be honest, I have no idea what you are talking about. I don’t remember even engaging with you more than a couple of times and a couple of e-mails. If I said something to you that you have been angry or hurt about, perhaps you should have brought it up “sometime” ago. But I apologise if I was ever unkind or rude to you. Now, my reasons for not engaging you often are simple. Rarely do I even have time to read half of the comments that are made here, never mind entering into conversations with folks that are both very opinionated and also long-winded. This is simply my way of guarding my time and is not intended to be an insult to you personally.
Now, I removed your post because, in my opinion, it was out of line and neither gracious nor wise as I had politely requested. I thought this was a simple request. I apologised to you for not wishing to discuss it. I thought that this would be enough. Unfortunately, your concurrent response revealed that you were both angry and hurt. This was not my intention. And now even worse, I am now “going down a dark path”. What can I say? In simple terms, I reserve the right to ban whom I wish here. The only times this has happened is when posters refused to respect others. Their opinions were far more important than respect for others. This was unfortunate, but it was not my choice. I do not wish anyone to leave, never mind to leave hurt or angry. However, my earlier comments / requests remain. Whether you choose to abide or leave is entirely your choice:
Bless you, Joel
July 27th, 2009 at 4:17 am
I didn’t want to make this about me, but so be it. I would love to continue participating on this site, but why spend time on a post if I am to be censored and not know the reason why? Joel, you said:
This is about refusing to participate in spreading false information, name-calling, stereotyping, racism or general anti-Semitism.
There was none of that in my post. I am completely in the dark as to why you objected to my post. You refused to explain, only that it contained “an absolute lack” of grace and wisdom. Is this not an insulting comment? I cannot even re-read my post to examine it because you deleted it. Did you delete any of the other posts there WERE anti-Semitic? No. You just picked on me. And I don’t know why. Nor why you are more concerned with the posts on this particular news story than on any others. I sense an agenda that I have somehow come in-between.
Forgive me if I am more concerned with how people in the body relate to each other than I am about the dry but interesting facts of prophecy. Does that make me sensitive? If I had used strong language, or abusive tones, then I would understand censorship on this site. But to simply voice an opinion and to be censored? What has happened to free speech? How are we to grow and develop if rather than interacting with each other we instead have a gag put into our mouths because we favour some people’s comments rather than others? Everyone on this thread now believes that my post was so offensive that it had to be removed. Yet no one can read it to judge for themselves. I have been branded. This is not how the body is meant to work. This is how modern government works; suppression and misrepresentation.
I don’t care a great deal what anyone thinks of me to be honest, I would have said nothing more if no one else had. But I care about truth and I care about the body. And I see too much partiality going on, not just with me. Let us treat each member of the body equally. An administrator keeps things in order, he/she does not guide things along a certain projectory. I see little need for the former on this site, but I do see the latter taking place and that concerns me.
July 27th, 2009 at 4:31 am
Oh, when I said that I didn’t want to make this about me, I meant I didn’t want to delve into my actual post. I just realised that I didn’t make that at all clear. Clearly I’ve taken some of this personally and I wouldn’t be human if I didn’t, but I don’t want it to distract from the point being made.
P.S. It would be great if we could make text appear in bold or italics as well as the administrator. I don’t know if this is a technical challenge, but it would be very useful to possess a greater range of expression.
July 27th, 2009 at 5:49 am
Other posts were removed as well. No one else has protested.
July 27th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
Joel,
I am a bit curious about this whole controversy? Can you please provide the users of your site some information in the reason of transparency?
thank you,
Larry
July 27th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
I’m not sure what there is to be confused about. Its all here for you and anyone to read through. There is no “secret agenda” as Stuart suggested. I’m not so sure what is so hard to understand about this. This post has been and will be read by a thousands of people who do not normally visit this site. Comments made here reflect not only upon me, but also upon the Gospel of Christ. I thus removed some coments that I felt were anti-Semitic or over the top self-righteous, or just plain rude, etc.
July 27th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
Thanks Joel. I totally understand where you are coming from and if what you are saying is true that is what I would do. You have shown yourself to be trustworthy and you have no need to answer to me. It’’s just that reading Stuart’s comments it sounds like he didn’t do what you are accusing him of, at least from his perspective. You know what the post said and I do not, so I can’t judge and as I said, you don’t owe me an explanation. But for the sake of transparency it might be good to explain to Stuart and maybe even give a brief explanation here since it looks like an issue. That might not even make sense to do though. I’m sure whatever you decide will be best but I’m just giving my two cents.
Thanks,
Larry
July 27th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
Thanks Larry. My purpose was not to single out anyone in particular at all. Stuart’s comment was not the most offensive thing said by any means. He simply made the biggest protest and thus turned the focus on himself. I have already spent way more time commenting here than I presently have time for. Simply put, this is 90% of my reason for not wishing to discuss it. Stuart tends to be very chatty. Nothing wrong with this. I do not expect folks to understand how busy I am, its not their problem. But in all fairness, sometimes I have to remind folks that I run a small business, work a full time job, I have three young children, a wife and a house to care for, I travel frequently, get tons of e-mail everyday, manage this blog, am trying to write a new book, and lastly I am jealous to have some time with the Lord on a daily consistent basis. You get the idea. I apologised for not wanting to discuss it. Blessings…
July 27th, 2009 at 7:41 pm
Thanks Joel. I have almost no free time and you sound at least three times as busy as I am.
July 28th, 2009 at 1:06 am
With your contacts, it would make more sense to have you find others to help you moderate this site. Based on the number of postings, Stuart was unofficially helping to moderate this site and offer the time and responses that you may not find the time for.
I have found this site informative and am surprised at the level of knowledge of some of the posters in regard to Christian and spiritual issues. I was recently surprised at the research made by Norma Robertson in regard to the location of the oringinal Jewish temples.
I think that Stuart can be trained to be a moderator. What it would take is for him to understand that what he offers as speculation is of no greater value as to what others offer as speculation since both may prove to be wrong. If you were to teach him the guidelines of being a moderator, I think that Stuart could be a valuable asset to this site and offer what you find in short suppy - time and attention to this site. It’s a question of helping to cope with growth by utilizing the process of delegating duties.
July 28th, 2009 at 4:06 am
Israel National News writes:
(IsraelNN.com) As Tisha B’Av, the annual day of mourning over the destruction of the Temple, approaches, Members of Knesset met to talk about the Temple, its role in Jewish life, and Israel’s approach to the Temple Mount today. […]
A Chabad rabbi was invited to speak as well, and shared a religious view of the matter. By laying a firm claim to sovereignty on the Temple Mount, Israel will not only not drive supporters away, but will actually win friends, he said.
“When you tell the nations of the world the truth, not only will they stop fighting against you, but they’ll even join forces with you,” he explained.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132605
July 28th, 2009 at 5:54 am
Thanks for your suggestion Nobleday, but I don’t think I personally would be a suitable moderator for this site because my idea of what needs to be moderated and Joel’s idea of what needs to be moderated are clearly at odds with each other. I appreciate the compliment though. And the suggestion for additional moderators is a wise one.
My view is that honesty and transparency are paramount. Many people in Christ’s churches have this idea that we are supposed to present the church and its members as being better than they are, that we need to hide our disagreements and our imperfections to better proclaim the gospel. I completely disagree. Deception is always against the gospel. Christ says that His strength (power) is made perfect in our weaknesses. I believe this is not just true as believers but for the church as a whole. If the world can see our imperfectness but still see us united in the one thing that matters, that is Christ’s singular and eternal sacrifice for our sins, they would get the message; too many unbelievers today still think that the Christian gospel is about personal righteousness. We need to expose ourselves, warts and all, and then see Christ act with power through us to an unbelieving world that still seeks after self-righteousness. It’s not as if we are successfully deceiving the world anyway despite our attempts to paint a pretty picture over the church, because the greatest criticism of Christians already is that we are self-righteous and hypocritical. Yes we need to be a light on a hilltop, but not a false light. God will shine through us in our imperfections and in how respectfully we deal with each other despite them, it’s not our own light that will attract them to Christ.
July 28th, 2009 at 11:49 am
The world should know us by the love we have for one another. I think if we love and respect each other that the world will see Christ in us.
July 28th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
Indeed. Ditto. But if we ignore, dismiss, can’t make the time, etc…
July 29th, 2009 at 4:27 am
Tonight and tomorrow is Tisha B’Av, the day when Jews mourn over the destruction of the Temple.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tisha_B%27Av
There is a Jewish teaching that says “had the nations of the world known how much they benefit and are blessed by the Holy Temple they would have surrounded it with legions of armies to protect it from any harm.”
July 30th, 2009 at 12:45 am
Brother Joel
I am a Muslim from India and very much aware of your reservations against Islam.
All I could say is May the One God - the creator of everything visible and invisible,the known and unknowm show mercy and guide us towards straight path.
The number of times,I felt offended by your writings are numerous but the faith in One God could be a great unifying force and a source of mercy.
Thats why I addressed you as Brother Joel….
July 30th, 2009 at 5:47 am
Hi Hameed,
Thank you. I am happy to refer to you as a brother in humanity. May God guide you correctly so that someday I may also call you a Christian brother as well. And then we can both pray for the Jewish people together.
Bless you, Joel
August 3rd, 2009 at 12:30 am
Glory to God!
greetings to all,
i have been following this conversation a bit and have both cringed and agreed with many statements made . but have as of yet to hear anyone talk about the “mindset” of Jewish people, and how it relates to the topic at hand. why should any of this surprise any one! here we have the Sanhedrin ( at least a sub-Sanhedrin in charge of public relations to so called “non pagan gentiles” …ie…those under the “noahide” covenant as they call it) , in contact with a goy who fits into their theology and who stands to offer a good “deal” for Israel….i mean he wants peace in the middle east he wants Israel to exist ( and that is huge for a prominent Muslim to admit) peacefully with its neighbors and above all…and above all…..and above all, he wants to rebuild the Jewish temple on the historic site and encourage ( we can only assume) the reinstitution of continual sacrifice there. this is a win win situation for Israel , who is and always will be a minority in the region . it should not surprise any one that they have sent these rabbis to dialog with him , the Jews do not think like you! any more than you think like a Muslim or an orthodox christian thinks like a roman catholic! and so we can go on and on about what St. Paul said in our personal opinion about this or that and whether or not Israel will be saved or if the Jews hate Jesus and in the end it all boils down to …the Jews don’t care about any of that. in their eyes they are still Gods chosen people and everyone else is not…..that is not meant to seem harsh Joel but it is the truth , just as the Church believes the same thing…to whom is Christ betrothed, only one beloved not two and she is His Church. historically the Jews have fared far better under Muslim control than have Christians due to the fact that while Muslims consider Jews wrong in their belief of God they do not consider them idolaters as they do Christians, because of our belief in the very real incarnation of God almighty in the person of Jesus Christ. any way, it is clear that the main reason for the meeting is the rebuilding of the Jewish temple, as that is the only thing that keeps Jews from fulfilling all 613 commandments God gave moses on Sinai and thus keeping their messiah from coming. of course you could ask a chabad rabbi and a zatmar rabbi and a haredi rabbi if the temple should be rebuilt before messiah comes or if he will do it when he gets here and you could have an all out fist fight on your hand!as Christians, we don’t need the temple, that covenant is over and i don’t think we should be supporting the construction of one ,any more than i would support the construction of a mosque in mecca. i am rambling here , forgive me, what I’m saying is this , i don’t think it is a sinister meeting …it is a logical meeting , but perhaps a key part in the final days. may God help us all and enlighten our spiritual blindness .
August 4th, 2009 at 3:14 am
How many have actually read the declaration?
It mostly talks about the role of a believable judiciary, education, reduction of bigotry and prejudice, and the general intention to be tolerant. The main issue is the reduction of conflict and violence.
The fact that this is seen as sinister only reflects on supposed “good-will” of the people who see it that way. Perhaps this is part of the prejudice that was referred in the declaration. It is theologically possible for a Christian to admit that Jews can do something truly good (not sinister) that doesn’t involve conversion? If not, is that prejudice?
For their part, those who met saw it as a fulfillment of Zephaniah 3:9.
August 4th, 2009 at 5:00 am
What most Christians see as “sinister” here, is certainly not that the Jews are acting in a sinister way. Nor even the Muslims in this case. Rather the sinister element that some fear is an eventual betrayal of the Jews by Muslims. The reason for this is that this is such a repeated theme through Tanakh. In this case, I do not see any betrayal coming from Adnan, but again, perhaps someone who would come after him. So while expressed oddly, it actually reflects a concern for the Jews, who are clearly acting in good faith.
August 5th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
the desire for good will and good faith is sewn into our soul at the lowest level , it is the natural state of our created nature. and when ever a jew ,muslim ,buddist or whatever faith you practise acts in this way it is pleasing to God….no one has a completely depraved nature ,the spark of God is in all human beings. but i wonder how much this sanhedrin is aware of the islamic end time longings. that is the tragic thing here, and unless they are made aware of this then their eventual betrayal is , as you mentioned joel…unavoidable , but then again it could be the turnkey that hastens the return of Christ . if we are working within the frame work of the islamic anti-christ senario , then this is a painful necessity which not only afects the jews but all of humanity , the end can be prolonged (thank Christ ) but not changed ! that is the dificulty of all endtime senarios for me ..that eventually we must get to the point where we can say …come Lord Jesus, come! and mean it.
may Christ help us all!
February 9th, 2010 at 11:20 pm
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