Israeli Rabbi Calls For Turkish Mediation For Middle East Peace
This news is slightly old (February 8 of this year), but while it featured prominently in Turkish newspapers, it has not been translated into English. But it is certainly important to take note of.
Update 7/6/09 :
I mistakenly stated that Rabbi Fromen is one of the leaders of the Sanhedrin. While very well respected as the leader of the Tekoa Settlement, he is a free agent Rabbi and is not associated with the reformed Sanhedrin. I apologise for this rather significant error. - Joel
Hurriyet: Israeli Rabbi Menachem Froman stated that the establishment of peace between Israel and Palestine was the problem most urgently in need of a solution in the Middle East and said: “It is an irrefutable fact that Turkey is the most natural mediator between Israel and Palestinian Society. Turkish President Abdullah Gül and Prime Minister Erdoğan are the only two who can bring regional peace about… There is a lack of trust and it is the Turkish government and Prime Minister Erdogan who will bring that trust about.”
Yet how often have I heard various prophecy commentators emphatically state that no Jew would ever trust a Muslim to mediate a regional Peace Treaty?
July 5th, 2009 at 10:47 am
I know it’s OT, but I just read this and it made me happy and joyful:
http://ow.ly/fXUX
Unfortunately “sinners prayer” was not told with him, however it’s still a lot better news and makes one hope for him, than the last news that we were getting about him joining Islam and stuff.
Here’s a comment from Lewi Brevik on Andre Crouch’s Facebook:
“To all of you who are concerned about MJ’s salvation: MJ and Andrae have been friends and have worked together a lot of times the last 25 years or so. So this is not at all about what happened 3 weeks prior to his sudden death but more about all the times Andrae has been sharing, singing and praying with him and for him during all this years. I think MJ already had accepted Jesus as his saviour before their last meeting. Why do I think so? Because he was already at the point where he wanted to know more about the Holy Spirit and the fact that MJ, Andrae and Sandra were holding hands and prayed together after singing Andrae’s beautiful song “It won’t be long ’till we’ll be leaving here”. Maybe MJ knew his time was up and it would not be long before he would be leaving? Because our God is LOVE and Jesus died for us ALL I will not be surprised if I meet MJ in Heaven!!! But we will not know this for sure before we get to Heaven ourselves!”
July 5th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
I hope he did accept Christ, although the rest of the link seemed to indicate that he was just looking for a way to make his music more spiritual, there was nothing said about godly sorrow, repentance and faith. Still, let’s hope.
July 5th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Well, if he asked a prayer concerning the anointing of the Holy Spirit, that’s already some kind of faith, I would say. He had to believe the Holy Spirit is for real and can come to his life if he was asking for that.
My question would be if it was actually told to him how to come to Jesus.
You know I am not saying he is definitely saved and in Heaven. But before I have read this story I thought he definitely isn’t. Now I think he might be and there’s actually hope for him. But as said, only God knows.
July 5th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
Here’s an interesting article on One Jerusalem, regarding how they believe the Obama administration will push for the internationalisation of Jerusalem this Fall: http://www.onejerusalem.org/2009/07/harvard-picks-up-the-internati.php
July 5th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
Interesting article. I am amazed that so many preachers still think the EU is going to be the seat of the AC. I was reading an article last week where the entire article centered around the middle east, and specifically Turkey. Then, suddenly the author began talking about the AC being from the EU. I still don’t get that.
Michael Jackson was a Jehovah’s Witness and then a Muslim. He was religion shopping. Unless he repented and put his full trust in the Savior, he is not saved. Assuming he trusted Jesus…which Jesus was it? The JW Jesus? The Muslim Isa? Or was it The Door, The Way, The Life…the True and Living Word? Considering his fruit and that fact that he was begging for drugs from his handlers, it doesn’t sound convincing to me at all that he was born again. Where is his public profession of faith? If the Holy Spirit was in him, surely he would let the world know the way he did with JW/Muslim conversions.
BTW, the demons ‘accept Christ’. They believe and shudder. It is not enough just to acknowledge him. Jesus said, “repent and believe”. God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.
I’m glad to see people are concerned with his eternal salvation. I encourage you to share your faith with your families, neighbors and communities while there is still time. Till the nets are full…
July 5th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
“Considering his fruit and that fact that he was begging for drugs from his handlers, it doesn’t sound convincing to me at all that he was born again.”
You know my father and his wife were not married when they both accepted Jesus in their lives. Also my father was a heavy smoker at the time. It took them time to leave their sins, but gradually and eventually they did (they got married, my dad stopped smoking etc.) and they are in the Lord Jesus until this day! So are you saying they weren’t saved on the day when they turned to Jesus? I think they were. It just took them time to learn what they had to do.
Anyway, you are right that it’s important to share the Gospel with our loved ones. I was hesitating to bring this subject up because I thought some poeple might be angry about it. Sorry for that. But whether MJ was “religion shopping” or truly hungry and searching, only God can judge that, not you, not me.
July 5th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Again, I am sorry for hijacking the thread! I suggest to get back on topic now.
July 5th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
Just wondering by what right is the existence of this Sanhedrin sanctioned? Does it have any standing with the Israeli government, religious party, or organization? I believe it has to have some kind of legitimacy, but I’m just wondering about the details.
July 5th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
Suzy
Be careful justifying someone’s sin bandages by saying that someone else you know was in bondage to sin when they were born again. We need to base our discernment on scripture and not on our lives and what we dont know for sure. Im not questioning your fathers salvation but you also do not know if he was born again at that time only the LORD does. I too hope MJ was saved only for the Glory of God and because I dont desire even the worst criminal to go to that place of torment. But I dont worry about his salvation as a celebrity any more than than I do about every person I pass on the street on a given day.
Grace be with you
July 5th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
Duke,
I regret bringing it up now, I kind of knew the “oh why you worry about a celebrity” kind of answers will come. I certainly don’t care for him more than anyone I know in my neighborhood or family or community. I don’t care for him because he was a celebrity, but because I have compassion for anybody with a sad life, famous or not.
(BTW, I remember about two months ago or so, maybe more, two girls were mentioned on this blog. Two Iranian Christian girls
who were imprisoned for their faith in Iran. They are on my heart ever since and I am praying for them every day. Any news on
them?)
Regarding my father, I would like to know if every Christian you know was immediately free of any sin after they turned to Jesus, never committing anything bad again?
July 5th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
Regarding this Rabbi and this story - we all know what comes next, generally, on the prophetic calendar…the false peace.
While I am not the most socially adept person, nor close, I am a student of human nature, which has not changed since the fall in the garden. One thing I know on the basis of human nature is that Israelis in general have NO reason to trust Arabs or Muslims. While many progressive Israelis want peace, even at the cost of their land, it will take a special - probably supernatural - talent to negotiate after so many years of broken promises and brutality.
Considering the current stage of personalities, nations, and organizations - knowing the negotiator may not yet be publicly known or well known - the best bet we have is Turkey, which as everyone here has noted, is perfectly positioned as both a friend to Muslims, the West, and also many Israelis.
The fact that this Rabbi has publicly stated such says a lot.
Regarding the OT Jackson posts - I sure hope he knew the Lord, but his life certainly didn’t give signs of such. It is a settled matter now and both Jesus and Michael know the outcome.
No person is so buried in sin that they are beyond the reach of our Savior, but they have to accept him. Perhaps MJ was a work in progress, as am I. The Lord knows.
July 6th, 2009 at 6:54 am
Suzy: “Unfortunately “sinners prayer” was not told with him”
Stuart: “there was nothing said about godly sorrow, repentance and faith.”
Wanna know how I got saved by my Messiah Yeshua? I prayed a simple little prayer with NO words alone in my room and I accepted Messiah into my life as my Saviour and Lord. I just knew that Yeshua is my Lord now sice that moment and I was filled with AMAZING joy and peace! And that joy and peace hasn’t gone away.
When I prayed my quiet prayer, there was no words, no repentance, but FAITH. Repentance and words came a liitle bit later when I understood that Yeshua died and rose from the dead for me. Please, remember that the Lord is the One and Only Who saves, but the songs (story) of the saved are different before saying what is “orthdox” way of gettings saved by Messiah Yeshua.
God bless you.
July 6th, 2009 at 7:03 am
See, I had my own personal “sinner’s prayer” deep in my heart without words. God hears even the most quiet ones of our prayers if we pray from the bottom of our heart, soul and spirit.
Who knows what Michael Jackson had in his heart when he prayed with those people in the name of Yeshua Messiah. Maybe his “how I got saved” story could be kind of a same as my story. Maybe the fruits of the Holy Spirit didn’t “pop-up” in his life in a split of a second, but the process was going on in Michael’s life.
July 6th, 2009 at 7:16 am
“I didn’t hear sinner’s prayer”. That is like saying to soccer player that you didn’t score in right way after a goal.
July 6th, 2009 at 8:13 am
I agree that salvation does not come by speaking mantras, the idea of the sinners prayer has always grated with me.
However repentance is necessary before salvation can be given. John prepared the way with the gospel of repentance, then Jesus came to reap all of those who had been prepared through recognising the sin within them and coming to hate it. Repentance is ongoing and develops as the believer is sanctified, but you cannot have saving faith until you decide to turn from your sin, otherwise you are no better than the demons who believe and tremble. They don’t have faith because faith is an action, it is integral with works (as James says in his epistle) and works do not come before salvation. Repentance first, then faith & works.
Peteliuz I’m sure there was some repentance that led to you making your own personal sinners prayer in your heart.
July 6th, 2009 at 9:49 am
Stuart, I know I know. I agree with you and I am not here to claim that there is no need to repentance. But the order regarding the “phases” in the salvation process seems to be different.
For me, there was no repentance when I got saved. At least, I didn’t think that I am repenting at that moment when I got saved. I just asked God to help me and save if He exists. I repented afterwards like I said before. I understood afterwards that I am sinner and I need Redeemer with big “R” letter.
I didn’t think that I would need to repent before God when I prayed my quiet (”sinner’s”) prayer. Maybe that could be described as repentance in any case, but at least I didn’t think, feel etc that I was repenting.
Who cares about the order. After all I am saved by His Grace. That’s enough. God is not “neurotic engineer” when it comes to the order of the different phases in the salvation process.
July 6th, 2009 at 10:22 am
I meant that I just asked God to help me, save me from inner agony which I had been suffering for years before I prayed my little quiet prayer. I didn’t know at the moment in question that I had to repent and turn away from my sins towards God. I just wanted peace to my heart and happy life and God gave it to me. But like I said before, I understood later that repetance is needed. And should I say that I understood later that in fact, my prayer was repentance in any case even if I wasn’t aware that it could be described as repentance.
I understood also afterwards that the agony which I felt was because of my sins and they were separating me from God. I understood all of these biblical truths because God helped me to understand the eternal Truths in His Word, the Bible.
Maybe my quiet prayer could be described as repenting after all, but I didn’t think that I was repenting or I should had to repent. The Holy Spirit helped me to understand the theological meaning of the empty cross and grave of our Messiah when I was studying the Word of GOd and listening to sermons. And it didn’t only help me to undestand these biblical truths, but the Word itself, Yeshua Messiah, came flesh in my life and God started to change my life in by the power of His Holy Spirit according to the Word.
I the nutshell: I could name all of my feelings, spiritual state of my heart and the basic salvation related biblical and theological issues afterwards, you know. Like David Pawson has said wisely: getting saved doesn’t happen in a split of a second, but it is a process. For me the process was what is was. Amen and everlasting thanks to God!
July 6th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
If one seeks The Lord with their whole heart, that is in effect repentance. If you place God above everything else that is repentance because you will give or give up whatever is necessary for His fellowship. And of course none of this is possible without faith, how can someone even consider doing anything serious that they don’t believe in?
July 6th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
Peteliuz,
I can’t really say much more than I have on the subject theologically, but I can provide my own testimony as an example.
When I was 15 I prayed to God really desperately, but only for worldly help, as I saw myself as more sinned against than sinner. He responded to that prayer by sending me a new friend at school who was a Christian and I ended up attending a Christian youth group for 2.5 years. At one point towards the end of this time there was a moment where I think I believed, but it scared me and so I turned away. It was another (get this) 7 years and 7 months later when I reached a point in my life where I felt desperately bad about myself and asked God for spiritual help, recognising that I was a sinner and that I needed Him. He then sent me missionaries that very day. It took a few months after that before I finally asked God to come into my life, placing faith specifically in Jesus Christ, because I was grieved that I had sinned against Him - for His sake, not my own - and that was when I was born again (God testified to me at that moment). The process began with me simply looking for personal gain, before I came to care more about Him than myself, more about righteousness than self-righteousness. It required repentance and then faith before God could seal me with the Holy Spirit, despite the fact I had been crying out to Him for many years; beforetime my motivation had always been wrong, it wasn’t God-centric, it was self-centric. How can one have faith to live for God when one is still living for oneself?
In the book of Samuel we have a contrast between the two. We have Saul, who was always seeking God but only for his own personal gain, and so God never accepted him, and then we have David who was after God’s heart and him God did accept. People might say that Saul had faith because he often enquired of God and sought help from God, but it was never a saving faith because it lacked repentance. David, for all his many sins, always repented because of his love for God and not himself.
Your faith also sounds genuine, but there are so many professing Christians who I believe have never got past that first stage of personal concern, and experienced godly sorrow for their sins where true salvation is found. In other words there are so many Sauls in the church and not enough Davids (I fear). So few churches preach repentance, only the “faith” of Saul, and thus we have weakened churches and weakened testimonies, to the extent that the Philistines (the unbelievers in this world) have no reason to honour the God of Israel. And so I think it is really important that people realise that God requires repentance before they can receive saving grace.
(By the way, when I say repentance before salvation I am talking about the repentance of desire, not the repentance of action, because we need the Holy Spirit in order to repent in action. I am still talking about a gospel of grace and not works.)
July 6th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
Now I’m going to put my two cents in
I saw a tv show a few years ago about some people who had died and came back (all believers in Christ, one after the experience). Whether it’s true what they encountered or not, these two stories stuck with me.
1) A Pastor from Africa, on his way to do some work for the Kingdom got in a car accident and died. He was dead 3 days. While dead — which he said felt like minutes — what he believed to be an angel took him to see a glimpse of heaven. He saw the mansions that were empty and the flowers, grass, even the rocks singing praises. Then he saw a mutlitude of people gathered in an area singing praises and the angel told him they were the saints who had already died and were singing praises to God; the mansions were empty until the time came for all the saints to be gathered together. The pastor told the angel he was so happy this was to be his home, but the angel said it wasn’t.
Then he was taken to a dark, hot place where people were in agony and pain. The pastor yelled out that surely this was not the place for him to be in, but that as soon as he said that he felt the conviction in his spirit that it was the right place and he knew why. The angel confirmed what he was feeling to be true.
No matter how many people the pastor had brought to God, how many missions he did, or all the works, the day before he died he had an argument with his wife. His wife slapped him during the argument and he locked himself in his room. Later his wife tried to apologize, but the pastor was still too angry and offended and left the next morning without making things right with his wife. Because of that, his place was not heaven. He did not forgive his wife.
The angel told him God was going to give him another chance, and he needed to tell everyone his experience.
2) A surfer dude dies from a jelly sting. He lived his life to the most ungodly you can think. His mom was a believer and always prayed for him, but he always rejected God and Christ. When he got stung, it was very late at night and in a foreign country. He asked for help and many wouldn’t help him thinking he was drunk. Before he died, he was thinking that if he survived this, he would beat senseless all the ones who rejected to help.
Someone found him unconscience and called the paramendics. On the way to the hospital he died and revived at the hospital. During that time he died, he said he felt a warmness come to him and a feeling of complete acceptance and voice that was speaking to him telling him he was loved. The love was incredible. Long story short, the man knew the voice was God, but how could God love him so much after he rejected God all his life? God spoke to him in words he remembered from his mom’s prayers and Scripture reading. The man was overwhelmed with what he was feeling and hearing. He thought, “how can God love me and forgive me, when here I was planning on beating senseless these guys who wouldn’t help me while on my death bed?” He asked God for forgiveness on everything he had done, including his thoughts of vengeance right before dying, then accepted God’s forgiveness.
He was then brought back to life in the hospital. The show said he went to the men to ask for forgiveness and told them about Christ and God’s love, left his bad ways and goes throughout the world giving his testimony.
My point in this is, we can be like the pastor living the “perfect Christian life” and end up going to hell. Or be like this surfer dude, living the ungodly life, and receiving God’s forgiveness and eternal life.
Everyone thought the Pastor had gone to heaven because of his outward goodness. Even his wife thought this regardless of his unforgiveness towards her because he was a genuinely good man after God’s heart and sought God’s ways always. Yet his final destination was going to be hell.
Everyone who knew the surfer dude, including the mom, thought he ended up in hell because he never accepted Yeshua while alive, rejected everyone who would want to talk about God to him, was an alcoholic, played with drugs, and lived life on the edge….and yet he was going to go to Heaven.
July 6th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
Let me clarify that I am not saying we are to do drugs and live “la vida loca”! That is NOT what I am trying to say. My point was that we don’t know where people end up going after they die. What is really in our hearts at that time, only our Father knows. And His grace and mercy are huge and His ways are just.
The reason this story stuck with me is because I think that the more we know, the higher we are held accountable for. The Pastor should know that God is all about foregiveness, but by the same measure he judged others, he too was judged.
The surfer dude was told things, but he never accepted. It wasn’t until God touched him that he accepted. But he still had the choice of accepting that love or rejecting it. God gave the surfer dude one more chance. He also gave the pastor one more chance…
I hope I made sense in what I’m trying to say.
July 6th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
Repentance is necessary for salvation. Jesus said “repent and be saved”. John prepared the way for Christ by preaching “repent!”
July 6th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
Wendy,
I believe it is unbiblical to say that “if” the pastor was truly a man after Gods heart as David was that he would loose his salvation over an argument with his wife. This makes true salvation a conditional “tightrope” that all would fail at. First John chapter one verse eight says if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. I am not justifying sin but we all sin. Living a righteous life of a believer is not free from all sin but free of bandages to sin and continual sin or walking in darkness (see 1 john ch 1). We know if we seek the LORD with all of our heart and strive to live righteously he is faithful and will give us the strength to finish in the light of his grace. God is not waiting for you to make a mistake so he can remove you from this world not having repented as this pastor and therefore without excuse.
July 6th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
No guys, first God saved me. When I was pulled inside His love and salvation, only then I was able to see myself as sinner. How anyone who lives in total darkness could see that there are many filthy stains in one’s clothes until one enters to the Room of Light and would see all of those stains and repent? I was able to repent by the help of the Holy Spirit after I got saved. And also I was able to understood that Whom I have sinned against after I got saved. There is nothing in us which would please God. How can you repent if you wouldn’t know Him first who do you have sinned against and entered inside to His Ark of Salvation, Yeshua Messiaht, through the door which is widely open all the time? Even our repentance is like filthy piece of cloth before Holy God. The goodness of God leads us to repentance. See the word “leads”, it’s a process which seems often start after getting saved. How could we even repent genuinely if we wouldn’t have His Spirit in our heart already? And the testimony of the Holy Spirit is the Seal of one’s salvation.
July 6th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
Blessings Duke
I never said that pastor was like David or compared him to David, neither did the show. What I said is that he was a man after God’s heart, as his wife put it — I didn’t say this, his wife did, along with other praises about how great her hubby was. But they never compared him to David.
We have the Bible which plainly puts out how God would have us live. His commandments, His precepts, His instructions. I mean, it says that when we are angry not to sin and never let our wrath, fury or indignation last until the sun goes down so that we don’t leave room or foothold for the devil and give him an opportunity. Could that have been what the pastor did or was about to do? Only God knows.
But just like Tracy said about repenting; when the pastor heard he wasn’t going to go to heaven because of what he had done with his wife, he knew his judgement was just. He said so in the show. That he fell to his face and knew what he had done was wrong. Could that have been the repentance God was looking for and hence gave him a second chance by sending him back? Only God knows! And that’s the point I am trying to make.
I would hate to think that God is just waiting for us to make a mistake for Him to remove us from this world, as you stated towards the end. So many mistakes I’ve made and I’m still here. I know He doesn’t like stiffnecked people cuz it’s all over the Torah. So maybe this pastor was just being ’stiffnecked’ at not forgiving his wife. Maybe this car accident was God’s mercy and His way of saving this pastor from falling into further sin if he would just have let him be and continue in this unforgiveness.
Just like the commandment of putting to death the adulterers. If God is love and mercy, why would He command those who commit adultery to be put to death? Could it have something to do with Numbers 14:18 which says,
“The LORD is long-suffering and slow to anger, and abundant in mercy and loving-kindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and fourth generation.”
Could this putting to death of the adulterers be God’s grace and mercy for the third and fourth generations of those who committed the transgression?
See, we don’t always know why God does what He does, but we know through faith that He does the right thing. And most of the time, dare I say all of the time, what He does is not what we would think of doing, but He is always right. And if we would have done it our way, it would have all turned out wrong.
I’m probably not making sense, but it makes sense in my rattling little brain. I hope God can relay in your heart what I am trying to say. If not, then as Gamaliel put it… if what I am saying is of human origin it will fail; but if it’s of God we will only find ourselves fighting against Him.
July 6th, 2009 at 5:46 pm
peteliuz: I wrote this and I think it applies to you, “If one seeks The Lord with their whole heart, that is in effect repentance. If you place God above everything else that is repentance because you will give or give up whatever is necessary for His fellowship. And of course none of this is possible without faith, how can someone even consider doing anything serious that they don’t believe in? “…………Of course God shows us more and more sin in our life afterward.
July 6th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
Wendy,
If you look back at what I wrote I never accused you of making those claims (I.E. heart after Gods like David) and I hope I didn’t offend. The statement “he was a genuinely good man after God’s heart and sought God’s ways always” obviously reminds me of David being after Gods own heart I admit that David was never mentioned but that is irrelevant to my statement. Whether this was said by his wife or another is also irrelevant. I agree if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins (Heb 10:26) but I just personally saw these stories as somewhat misleading. Thats just my perspective and could be wrong.
Grace be with you
July 7th, 2009 at 2:17 am
We here contend with some physiological realities that we do not often really consider. One of them is the capacity of the human mind to fully grasp AND respond to a series of ideas in — quite literally — just the blink of an eye. This ability is central to our ability to perform complex tasks like driving an automobile in heavy traffic, or piloting a commercial aircraft, or playing complex video/computer games.
Because of this God-given capacity, it is entirely possible to give a 30-second testimony of Jesus to a dying man, have him hear, be convicted by The Spirit, repent and be saved all between two successive breaths. The mind is lightning quick, and capable of thinking hundreds f interconnected things in just the time it took you to read this sentence; including noting the fact that I left out the “o” in “of.”
Certainly repentance is necessary to salvation, but repentance for how long? Must “repentance” require an established period of time, else it not be actual repentance?? We humans tend to say, “Yes” because our own ideas about guilt and repentance leave us prone to the notion that the longer we spend agonizing over our sin, the more repentant we really are, and — by extension — the more well-saved” we will be. We see someone on their face sobbing out their wretchedness before God, and we assess that this display indicates a deep salvation experience. We see another who stands in silence for a few moments, sheds a few tears then leaves, and wonder whether they’ll be in church ever again. It is a good thing, indeed, that God doesn’t think like us; that He sees the inward man, not merely the outward displays.
Having grown up in church, I can think of several times when people I knew had emotional times of repentance at an altar of prayer, and I recall some who had several such experiences spaced some months and years apart. Were they not saved the first time? Were they any more repentant the next? If outward evidence of repentance were any measure, these people ought to have been canonized before they graduated High School. Yet, some among them do not walk with God 25 years on. Clearly, these people all felt grieved over their own behavior, but it is equally clear that some went on to repentance, while others merely cried out their own guilt, and left it at that.
What shall we say, then?
Just this: that repentance is absolutely required, but not adequately measured in either duration or display of emotion. Repentance is not a quantitative thing, it is a binary thing; one either is, or one is not repentant. What follows from there is really secondary. One might be brokenhearted and pour out a river of emotion, or one might go on their way in quiet introspection. Neither subsequent disposition proves that there was real repentance that precipitated it, nor does either prove that there was not.
We cannot rely on a slate of outward manifestations as a necessarily accurate method of measuring the inward repentance of the heart.
July 7th, 2009 at 11:03 am
Very insightful InfiniteEMF. Thank you.
July 7th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
That’s it, right there, InfiniteEMF.
That’s what those story’s about the pastor and surfer dude were about… it had nothing to do with their outward acts, works, or if they said a prayer or not. It’s what God knew about them inside that made the difference.
July 7th, 2009 at 10:32 pm
Wendy,
Would you happen to know the name of the program or have any idea of where to find the testimony of these men? I find it troubling that a Christian man could be sent to hell for one sin, I know there’s a discussion about original sin on another thread on Joel’s page; I believe we are born with a sin nature and will have it until the resurrection or our death. If we didn’t there would be no need for Christ to have made the greatest sacrifice. God the Father can only look at us through Jesus. So simply by living we are in our sin. What hope is there for anyone unless we are confessing up until our last breath?
The surfer dude, is it possible to accept Christ after death? Seems off to me.
I’d be interested in hearing more about this if you can remember the details.
Thanks!
July 7th, 2009 at 11:52 pm
Dear ignobleuse,
I’m sorry, I do not remember the name of the program. It was at least 3 years ago that I saw it. I would rarely watch TV (we don’t have cable now) and I saw it on one of those Christian networks… TBN or Daystar. My husband was flipping through channels trying to find some football stuff and left it on one of those TBN or Daystar and that show began and I asked him to leave it on so we could see what it was about.
It was a bunch of short story clips of different people who had claimed to have experienced something after they died and remembered it when they were brought back to life. Some remember being taken by large angels, some were shown glimpses of heaven, others of hell, etc.
Throughout the years those two stories of the pastor and the surfer dude stuck with me… not because of the “theological” aspect of reasoning something like that happening; not going to heaven because of one sin, or go to heaven after death when not receiving Christ when alive. But what struck me and hit my heart was that we really don’t know what happens until it happens.
Since people were talking about MJ on this site, and some said they thought he went to heaven and others said there was no way, I immediately rememberd this show and how the people who knew the pastor thought for sure he went to heaven, and the people who knew the surfer dude thought for sure he would go to hell and the complete opposite was to happen.
When I saw that show, I was reminded that we are not God and we don’t know who goes to heaven and who doesn’t or why. I was also reminded about always walking in forgiveness while on this earth because we never know how long we’ll have to get over our anger before we die. How can we expect God to forgive us when we ourselves won’t forgive others for far lesser transgressions than the ones we commit daily unto God. That’s what I took from it. Whether it’s possible for something like that to happen or not, my heart didn’t care about that. It was more of a slap on the face of how we think we can say a prayer and no matter what else we do we go to heaven, but it can be so much more than that.
Yeshua said to love God, and love other’s. When you love others, you easily forgive. When I saw this show I had unforgiveness in my heart towards people who had wronged me in the past, before coming to Christ, and I knew I needed to release them and forgive them. How could I claim to have the love of Christ in me when I can’t even forgive past offenses, or current ones?
Then when I saw the surfer dudes story I remembered how I rejected God throughout my life because my father was atheist and I thought my mom was a crazy catholic so I wanted nothing to do with God. It was because I didn’t understand the fullness of Christ’s love for me. Prior to giving Christ my life, I didn’t even know who he was. I heard of Him, but I thought it was just another name for God. So if anyone would have known me then and I would have died, they would have thought I went to hell because I had rejected God throughout my life. And I had always wondered that… what would have happened to me if I had died prior to giving my life to my LORD?
When one worship leader took the time to talk to me about the TRUTH of Christ is when I broke down and immediately gave my life to Him. I now knew the fullness of His love and sacrifice for me. All the other people who tried to “save” me were pushy, bossy and threatening. So do I believe I would have had a chance after dying without having given my life to Christ? I believe so, just because God would have known my heart and known I didn’t know the fullness of Him and in His abundant grace and mercy would have given me a chance to experience His love, as one last chance to accept Him. At least I would hope God wouldn’t just cast me out for rejecting something I didn’t understand.
In regards to the pastor, the Bible talks about those who say “Lord, Lord” and He tells them He doesn’t know them. Is it possible to get so confident in your salvation that you think you are untouchable? I don’t know, but I don’t want to find out.
That’s the lesson I took from what I saw on the tv show. It’s the lessons I try to take from everything I see.
But, see, that wasn’t my point in sharing those stories and I’m really sorry if I brought about all this confusion of me being unbiblical, or bringing about unbiblical things. My point was that we don’t really know who goes to heaven or who doesn’t based on outward appearances. No matter what! We are not God. We need to stop acting like we know it all and begin to really live out what God has commanded us to do and live out as stated in His Torah, and as Yeshua reiterated in the Brit Hadasha.
I know I’m going to be the least popular on this blog
But “CAN’T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?! Just kidding… I love you all and thank you for sharing and interacting with me. I’m just sharing along with all of you.
Abundant blessings to you all
July 8th, 2009 at 12:14 am
Wendy,
My coming to Christ was a little different. I love this quote by C.S. Lewis:
In the Trinity Term of 1929 I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England…. But who can duly adore that Love which will open the high gates to a prodigal who is brought in kicking, struggling, resentful, and darting his eyes in every direction for a chance to escape.
I experimented with various beliefs before declaring myself agnostic. Then God made me an offer I couldn’t refuse. Kinda like “Hey, I’m real, how are you going to deal with that fact?”. I set out to see if he was right or not, and I have to say in my wanderings, there is no God but God. One of the things that I found most intriguing was what does it mean to be a Christian, and does it make sense. So forgive me if I get a little doctrinal on ya! lol
But I do agree that there will be people in eternity who we will not expect, and others who we do expect will sadly not be there. I recall a story I read about a military chaplain who was ordered to take confessions from Nazi war criminals at Nuremberg. He was vehemently opposed to his orders, but did so unwillingly, and he said that he has no doubt he will see some of those men again. Even the son of sam has a prison ministry http://www.ariseandshine.org/ So who’s to say…
But yeah it’s good to share so keep doing that! We’re all just a community of believers seeking out our own salvation as well as discussing the end of the world
Peace
July 8th, 2009 at 3:45 am
ignobleuse,
The reason why only one sin would be enough to send us to hell is because one sin is just a symptom of the larger problem, which is a sinful heart. Whether you believe in original sin being inherited or not makes no difference, because the sinful heart (as a result of inheritance or rebellion) is totally depraved.
The reason it doesn’t always seem that way to us is because we are raised in a world that has been blessed by God and in some places more directly by the gospel, so we are affected by His good influence which curbs our inner depravity. But one must be born again to receive a new heart, otherwise even God’s presence in the world is not enough (as was proven in Old Testament times). If one is not born again and God’s Spirit is withdrawn, then we descend into the total depravity that lies in our heart and such will be the final state of those who never repent.
July 8th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Stuart - do you believe in once saved, always saved?
July 8th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Stuart,
I’m assuming you haven’t read the whole thread. Wendy said the pastor was “a man after God’s heart”. That hardly makes him a depraved sinner. My point was, as a result of original sin, we are all considered sinful before God. If one sin is enough to send a devout Christian man to hell, then there is no hope for any one of us.
July 8th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
Water,
That’s one of those issues that I fluctuate upon, although for some time now yes I have been a believer that we are once saved, always saved. However I don’t yet understand all the scriptures pertaining to the subject, so I’m not dogmatic on the subject. If we CAN lose our salvation, then I am certain it would only be by our conscious choice to depart from God, He would never let us go. He who has begun a good work in you…
Ignoble,
I’m not sure if it’s my fault or your misunderstanding, but I was talking about pre-saved individuals - I believe scripture teaches we all have totally depraved hearts with no good thing in them before we are saved. Of course we all continue to sin after becoming believers so if a believer went to hell for one sin then there would be no hope for any of us, would there…
July 8th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
Ignobleuse and Wendy,
The name of the show was “The Lazurus Phenomenon” as I recall, and it aired on the Trinity Broadcasting Network. I think you can still find this for sale on the web. I would highly recommend this DVD for anyone who is searching for God, or doubting what the Bible says about heaven and eternity.
Wendy, I also saw this show about 2 or 3 years ago, and it fascinated me because I have a friend that had a NDE that was very similar to the surfer dude’s experience. He was not a Christian either when he ‘died’ at the hospital.
As I watched the surfer tell his story and describe what he saw in heaven, it was as though I was listening to my friend tell his story all over again. Their respective descriptions were virtually identical with regard to the physical environment around them in their ‘paradise’. But the real clincher is the emotion that overcomes them as they recall their meeting with the ‘being of light’ and the unconditional love that they felt from Him. These two men tell exactly the same story.
Though this NDE happened to him 40 years ago, my friend still remembers this moment as though it just happened. To this day, he cannot give his testimony without breaking down, as he longs to return to that place.
I won’t comment on the ramifications of this and how it relates to the ‘narrow gate’ of the Bible, but it seems that God shows His grace to individuals in many different ways. And it seems like we don’t know the half of it.
July 8th, 2009 at 6:48 pm
Stuart,
ummm……ok… It sure is hot over there the past while hey?
July 8th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Michael,
Thanks I’ll check it out! Here it is online.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5186211187154170413
July 8th, 2009 at 11:41 pm
Well the surfer dude did pray to God before he died. I think death bed conversions can definitely be genuine, the parable of the workers in the vineyard in Matthew 20 is a good reference point. Or as one of my non-Christian friends who likes to tease me says: “no one goes to Jesus on prom night.”
July 9th, 2009 at 10:45 am
Ignoble,
I wish! The temperature dropped 12 C in two days at the start of the week and it now feels like early spring. Only England has such temperamental weather.
July 9th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
Thank you so much for finding the show I was talking about, Michael (K.), and finding the link ignobleuse. I haven’t seen it in such a long time, I hope my paraphrasing of the stories were close enough. The real shocker to me was the pastor; what he saw, how he felt, etc.
Because of that, I don’t take for granted my salvation through Yeshua, or my grafting in to the tree (Rom. 9-11).
Thank you for sharing your friends story and how almost identical it was to the surfer dudes story. And you are so right on, “we don’t know half of it”. The Old Testament is full of how God longs for us to live. He set His instructions right there for us; Yeshua didn’t come to do away with them but kept them all, and how far we have moved from those olam ways of God.
July 9th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
Stuart, thanks for the reply, I was curious.
I landed firmly on once-saved-always-saved a few years ago after studying the topic quite a bit. It is an important issue that we believers need to understand.
July 9th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
I agree Water, a believer’s security in Christ is essential to free us up to live for God to our full potential, not fearing mistakes. Contrary to Islam which leads people to kill others to insure their own salvation, knowing we already have it gives us a fresh lease of life to die to ourselves for the sake of others, knowing that what we have guaranteed in the afterlife will more than make up for what we lose in this one.
One of the scriptures that had me worried for a bit on this subject was Hebrews 10:26, but I now understand this to be directed at those unbelievers who receive a witness of the truth and then forever turn their back on it, not at believers. The reason why so many people who heard the gospel in their youth and rejected it are now so antagonistic to Christians is because deep down they are in fearful dread. I was once there myself, but thankfully, gloriously, God was very merciful and long-suffering with me whilst He waited for me to finally repent and turn to Him. Hosanna!
July 9th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
To understand the fullness of the Bible we need to look at it through Hebraic eyes, not western/greek ones. Constatine changed God’s olam ways and now look where we are - all confused. God is not confusion. I see so many of us writing in these posts with so many different views of what this or that verse says or means.
One thing the Islam people have is that they all know their beliefs and they all agree with them and are in one accord about them. Wrong as they may be, they are all in one accord. We can’t say the same about us Christians. The Islam people pray 3 or 4 times a day (I don’t know the exact number, but it’s up there). They fall on their knees and face and pray without care or concern of who’s watching or what they’ll say or do. How many times can we say we as followers of Christ do this with such diligence and devotion, daily? We wonder why Islam is so rapidly growing, it’s no wonder.
We Christians, I am so sorry to say, have fallen so far off the right path. But I wholeheartedly believe that with our Abba’s help, we will get back on track in these last days. We need to for His sake and our children’s sake.
July 9th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
oh, another one…
July 9th, 2009 at 9:42 pm
Stuart,
Yes, Hebrews is full of great stuff concerning eternal security.
10:26 Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins.
All of us sin, before and after salvation. The difference is that once we belong to the Lord, we don’t rest easy in our sin. Our hearts are troubled until we confess and repent. And if we fall into the same sin again? It is the Lord who keeps promises. It is the Lord who keeps his covenant, even when we do not.
I had a discussion with a very devout friend not too long ago who believed that if we sin, we lose our salvation until we confess and repent again. I asked him what would happen if a man was saved in his younger years, lived the rest of his life without a single sin, but then as he lay on his death bed he had a lustful or hateful thought without a chance to confess or repent before he died. My friend had to think about that one for a while and never really answered.
The Lord said that when he set someone free, they were free INDEED! He said we are a *new* creature, that new wine can’t be put into old wine skins, and that even when we are not faithful, he always is.
If salvation were not forever, we would be bouncing in and out of eternal life, like a yo-yo. One minute we are saved, the next we are not, then we confess and repent and we are saved again, only to lose it again when we have a bad traffic moment or think that lady down the street is pretty hot.
Anyhow, sorry to wander off topic. Sometimes I just have to follow a path.
Also, I wonder if I could wear one of those boxes on my head at work. That might not turn out well for me.
July 10th, 2009 at 9:27 am
Water,
Thanks, those are some good points! I once had a friend who told me he was discipling me, and he used himself as an example for me to follow and told me that he goes a long time without sinning. I told him that his definition of sin was way too narrow. In Isaiah it says all of our righteousness is as filthy rags compared to God.
One single wayward thought is enough to disqualify us for heaven. Paul is such an awesome example for us. The closer he got to God the more he realized how far away he was declaring “Christ Jesus came into this world to save sinners of whom I am the worst.” Not who he used to be when he was persecuting Christians, he was referring to his present state.
July 10th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
ignobleuse,
Exactly, there is nothing we can do to earn salvation to begin with, so to think we can perform to keep it or maintain it is nonsense.
Eternal security is not a license to sin, it is a get out of Hell for free card…only it wasn’t truly free…it was just that we did not have to pay the penalty.
July 10th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
amen!
July 11th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
To those who say “once saved, always saved and no one sin can disqualify you from heaven”;
1. If I go to the mall, see an old boyfriend, have an ongoing affair with him, I die… I still get to go to heaven?
2. If I have a ministry at my church, take some of the money donated to that ministry for my own pleasure.. maybe get me some cute new pair of shoes, then I die… I still get to go to heaven?
3. My dad sexually abused me as a child and I have never forgiven him, even though he has made every attempt to come and speak to me and apologize, I’m way too hurt to ever forgive him, I die… I still get to go to heaven?
4. I continue to smoke, drink, do drugs, get drunk — afterall, it’s my body and the stress in this world is just too much for me — I die… I still get to go to heaven?
All I have to do is get saved and that’s it? I can do all those things above, without having to repent so I don’t become a yo-yo in and out of salvation, and still go to heaven, no matter what I do?
July 12th, 2009 at 12:25 am
Wendy,
I have discussed this issue with so many people so many times and I have come to the conclusion that there is really nothing anyone can say in a forum or in person to change another person’s mind. Eternal security is not a license to sin, it is our assurance that when we stumble that our Father still loves us and that his ***gift*** of eternal life is secure.
Salvation is a gift, not a wage. We can’t earn it the first time, we can’t maintain it, or keep it by our own efforts. The first time we sinned in life we were guilty of violating the entire law and therefore eternally incapable of earning our own salvation. Only sinless blood can pay that price - we don’t have anything to offer.
Remember this, Jesus paid the penalty for all of your sins almost 2000 years before you were born. ***The penalty for your sins has been paid.*** The condition to receive this gift is clearly defined in the Bible.
So, if you truly know Jesus and you are saved, whether you believe in eternal security or not, rejoice!
The link below provides a brief summary of scripture supporting eternal security. I would recommend you check it out, investigate on your own, and really ask the Lord to show you the truth of the matter.
I too once struggled with this concept and let me tell you something to help motivate you to study this question. When you were saved, do you remember how everything changed? When you first experienced the burden of eternal death lifted from your back, was that a good experience? Well, I found the realization that eternal security is true to be another wonderful experience - not for the sake of experience - for the sake of taking one more step close to understanding the love my Creator has for me.
Anyhow, chase the Lord on this issue and don’t stop until you have your answer. If you knock, he will open the door. If you seek him, you fill find him. Both of those promises are from the Lord’s Word.
http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-security.html
July 12th, 2009 at 3:08 am
Just to add my knowledge, if someone were continually doing those things that you listed Wendy then it would be clear that person was not truly born again, had not received salvation in the first place, because the letters of John tell us that if we “continually” sin then we are not saved.
July 12th, 2009 at 4:38 am
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July 16th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
I don’t know if anyone will still read this, since it’s a late post (I homeschool and didn’t have time to come check out the answers).
I am eternally grateful for my salvation and completly understand everything you wrote, Water. And Stuart, your response is what I believe as well. It just seems that so many people think that because they got “saved”, said a “prayer”, etc.. it’s like a license to continue doing what they wish which makes us no different from the world. And makes the world not want what we have. Do I make sense?
That was the point I was trying to make. Those who think they can continue lusting without thoroughly seeking God for help to overcome that temptation, don’t have true salvation. True salvation is yearning for that change from how we were in “Egypt” to how we are in the “Promised Land”.
Yes, we will struggle, like Rabbi Shaul said, but what we do with those struggles is what true salvation is about. Having the heart of Yeshua is not liking it when we sin, but trying to overcome it and being humbled to know we haven’t gotten there yet, and won’t until we get there.
Hope I made sense?
It just seems some people think they can do all those things I said up there and it’s okay as long as no one else finds out, or it doesn’t matter because we are all filthy rags and will never be sinless.
August 7th, 2009 at 12:32 am
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