Ezekiel 38, 39 The Battle of Gog and Magog
I understand that notes are not the best, easiest or the most complete way to communicate regarding a particular subject. However, the following are my notes - loosely spelling out why I believe that Gog is Antichrist. As usual, this is sure to stir up opinions and so forth and as things go right now, I will not have time to respond. Even if you disagree with my position, hopefully these notes will begin to help build understanding for the Biblical basis for my position as well as to show the many holes in the opposing position.
Blessings all. Joel
I. PASSAGE OVERVIEW:
A. Ezekiel 38-39 is one of the most critical and most essential end time passages to grasp. Yet it is one of the most significantly misunderstood and misinterpreted of all of the significant end time passages.
B. While several other passages use historcial types or foreshadows (Antiochus Epiphanes, Assyrian, etc.), to give us infoformation about the Antichrist, in this passage God addresses the Antichrist directly. It is a straight forward futuristic prophecy without any historical partial fulfillment. Where the Antichrist comes from as well as the primary nations that will make up his ten nation coalition are all named quite clearly.
C. Portrayed in this passage is a large end time coalition of nations primarily from the Middle East and northern Africa joining together to invade the land of Israel. The leader of this coalition is called “Gog”. The invasion concludes with a series of both natural and supernatural events that leave the invading armies shattered in the land of Israel.
II. ALL PROPHETS ESSENTIALLY SPOKE OF THE SAME THING, TOLD THE SAME GENERAL STORY, ALBEIT USING VARIOUS LENSES AND SHARING VARIOUS EMPHASIS’
A. The general story told by all of the prophets is fairly simple. Each one of the elements of the following story are repeated numerous times throughout the prophets.
B. Today, by and large, the Church is generally very Old Testament / Tanakh illiterate. If we simply understand the commonly repeated themes throughout the prophets, then we recognize that this is simply the same story that has been told over and over again.
1. In the last days,
2. A large coalition of nations from the Middle East (neighbors of Israel),
3. Will gather together and invade Israel.
4. They will be led by an evil world leader (The Antichrist).
5. They will kill a majority of the inhabitants of the land.
6. Many of the Jews that survive will be taken captive.
7. In the midst of this darkest time in Israel’s history, God Himself, through the Messiah will intervene, appear and deliver His people, the Jewish nation.
8. He will physically defeat all of the enemies of Israel (who He calls His enemies).
9. He will deliver the captives.
10. He will march up from Egypt, as the greater Moses and ascend to Jerusalem.
11. He will re-establish the throne of David on Mt Zion.
12. He will lead Israel in plundering the nations that plundered them.
13. Israel’s borders will be greatly expanded.
14. The children of Israel’s enemies will come and repent before them.
15. He will restructure the authority structure and leadership of the whole earth.
16. He will rule the world with an iron scepter for an extended period of time (a thousand years.)
17. The earth will be filled with the knowledge of God.
18. All of the promises made to Israel will be fulfilled.
19. Jews and Gentiles will live as “one new people” under His leadership.
C.. Despite the fact that the basic story told in Ezekiel 38,39 is essentially identical to that same story which all of the prophets tell, the majority position as held by many of today’s prophecy teachers holds that Gog and Magog are not the Antichrist and his armies. Instead they claim that:
1. Gog is a different evil end time world leader other than the Antichrist.
2. Gog’s armies are a different evil end time coalition of nations other than the one that the Antichrist will lead.
3. Their invasion is a different massive invasion of nations into Israel other than the invasion led by Antichrist.
4. The defeat in Israel is a different defeat other then the defeat of the Antichrist’s armies.
5. Etc etc etc.
D. Despite all of the numerous commonalities of Gog and his armies and Antichrist and His armies, the most commonly held position today in the Church is that Gog and Magog is another evil end-time world leader and his armies who will invade Israel either just before of just after the beginning of the final seven years that precede the return of Christ. Thus to most prophecy teachers, Ezekiel 38,39 comes at least several years prior to the coming of the Antichrist.
E. The reason that many hold this position is two fold:
1. Through a misinterpretation of Daniel 2, 9:26 and Revelation 17, they begin with the false assumption that the Antichrist will come from Europe. Because Gog’s armies are clearly Middle Eastern, they conclude that this must be someone different than the Antichrist.
2. In order for their vision of a universal new age humanistic religion to rule the world, they need to find a way to get rid of Islam. It is imagined that a drastic defeat of Muslim nations will do just this; render Islam as an irrelevant force in the earth.
F. By beginning with a faulty foundation (the Roman End time paradigm), they arrive at other false and unbiblical conclusions. Foundational errors always lead to compounding errors.
G. Yet there are numerous very clear and strong internal evidences that show conclusively that this passage is indeed speaking of the final battle between Yeshua the Messiah and the Antichrist.
Note: The position of the Jewish rabbis and sages throughout the Talmud and throughout history is that Gog and Magog is indeed the final evil world ruler and his armies that all of the prophets speak of who will attack Israel and be defeated by the Messiah in battle.
The notion that Gog is a different evil end time world leader is unique to Christianity and a somewhat modern idea.
III. PROOFS THAT GOG IS THE ANTICHRIST
A. REASON #1: THE NUMEROUS SHARED COMMONALITIES BETWEEN GOG AND THE ANTICHRIST
1. THE DEFEAT OF BOTH GOG AND ANTICHRIST ARE FOLLOWED BY “THE FEAST OF GOD”
Gog:
Call out to every kind of bird and all the wild animals: ‘Assemble and come together from all around to the sacrifice I am preparing for you, the great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel. There you will eat flesh and drink blood. You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth… At my table you will eat your fill of horses and riders, mighty men and soldiers of every kind,’ declares Yahweh the Sovereign. —Ezekiel 39:17-20
Antichrist:
And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great.” (Revelation 19:17)
2. BOTH ARMIES ATTACK TURN ON EACH OTHER.
Gog
I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign LORD. Every man’s sword will be against his brother. I will execute judgment upon him with plague and bloodshed. -Ezekiel 38:21-22
Antichrist
On that day men will be stricken by the LORD with great panic. Each man will seize the hand of another, and they will attack each other. -Zechariah 14:12-13
3. BOTH COALITIONS CONSIST OF THE SAME NATIONS:
Antichrist:
…and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his (Antichrist’s) steps.
Daniel 11:43
Gog:
Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet.
Ezekiel 38:5
4. BOTH GOG AND THE ANTICHRIST TAKE SPOIL, LOOT AND PLUNDER:
Antichrist:
“Woe to the Assyrian (the Antichrist), the rod of my anger, in whose hand is the club of my wrath! I send him against a godless nation; I dispatch him against a people who anger me, to seize loot and snatch plunder, and to trample them down like mud in the streets. But this is not what he intends, this is not what he has in mind; his purpose is to destroy, to put an end to many nations.” (Isaiah 10:5-7)
“When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them… He will distribute plunder, loot, and wealth among his followers.” (Daniel 11:24)
Gog:
On that day… you will make an evil plan: You will say, ‘I will go up against a land of unwalled villages… to take plunder and to take booty, to stretch out your hand against the waste places that are again inhabited, and against a people gathered from the nations, who have acquired livestock and goods, who dwell in the midst of the land. (Ezekiel 38:10-13)
SIDE NOTE:
“When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them… He will distribute plunder, loot, and wealth among his followers.” (Daniel 11:24)
A. The Antichrist will be a populist, wealth spreader. He will want to “spread the wealth around” among his followers. Every dictator in history uses the concept of spreading the wealth to the poor, pseudo “justice” issues to curry favor with the peoples. Hugo Chavez, Communism, Fidel Castro, etc etc etc.
B. The Early Church Understood this: “The Antichrist pretends that he vindicates the poor.” Ireneaus (c. 202)
C. Muslims Await a Populist Messiah:
1. In the last-days of the Islamic community, the Mahdi will appear… He will give away wealth profusely, flocks will be in abundance, and the Muslim community will be large and honored… - Sahih Hakim Mustadrak
2. In those years my community will enjoy a time of happiness such as they have never experienced before. … A man will stand and say, “Give to me Mahdi!” and he will say, “Take.” At-Tabarani
5. BOTH GOG AND ANTICHRIST ARE KINGS THAT COME FROM THE NORTH.
Antichrist:
At the time of the end the king of the South (Egypt) will engage him in battle, and the king of the North (Antichrist) will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He (Antichrist) will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. (Daniel 11:40-42)
” And I will never again make you a reproach among the nations. I will drive the northern army far from you, pushing it into a parched and barren land, with its front columns going into the eastern sea and those in the rear into the western sea. And its stench will go up; its smell will rise.” Surely he has done great things. (Joel 2:19-20)
Gog:
In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it? You will come from your place in the far north, you and many nations with you… a mighty army… You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land… I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. I will turn you around and drag you along. I will bring you from the far north and send you against the mountains of Israel. (Ezekiel 38:14-16; 39:1-3)
6. BOTH ARMAGEDDON AND THE BATTLE OF GOG END WITH A GREAT EARTHQUAKE
The destruction of both Gog and the Antichrist is accompanied by an earthquake of unparalleled proportions. This is not a small event. Every creature on the Earth, all men will shake at the presence of Jesus. This same event is described in the Book of Revelation as occurring when the armies of Antichrist are gathered together in and against Israel:
7. BOTH ALSO EXPERIENCE GREAT HAILSTONES
Antichrist:
Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon… Then there came… From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. (Revelation 16:16-21)
Gog:
I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. (Ezekiel 38:22)
8. BOTH GOG AND ANTICHRIST COME AT A TIME OF PEACE AND UNSUSPECTINGNESS
Antichrist:
When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them (Daniel 11:24)
This is also in accordance with the false peace that Israel will experience as a result of the AC’s bogus peace treaty with Israel. While Ezekiel 38,39 portarys the final battle in very general and broad terms (wide angle lense) , Revelation 19 portrays it in very specific and focused terms. This is common throughout the prophets. It is the prophetic perspective / mountain peak principle that Clarence Larkin spoke so eloquently about long ago.
Gog:
You will say, “I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars. (Ezekiel 38:12, 13)
B. REASON # 2: THE THEORY WHICH CLAIMS THAT MUSLIMS NATIONS WILL BE DECIMATED PRIOR TO CHRIST’S RETURN CONTRADICTS NUMEROUS OTHER PASSAGES:
The Bible teaches that Israel will be shattered and nearly wiped out just prior to the return of Christ by Muslim nations. It names them very specifically numerous times. When Jesus returns he is seen to be fighting against Muslim nations and delivering Jews from captivity from the surrounding Muslim nations. Any claim that the Muslim World will be rendered irrelevant prior to the return of Christ must ignore vast tracts of Scripture and is thus unbiblical.
C. REASON #3: EZEKIEL 38, 39 PORTRAYS THE PAROUSIA: CHRIST IS PRESENT
In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. The fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence (panim) . (Ezekiel 38:20)
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming (parousia lit. presence). (2 Thessalonians 2:8)
Presence = Panim: Means face, or in front of. Actual presence. The actual face of God.
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face (panim) to face (panim), and my life is preserved. Gen 32:30
THE HOLY ONE IN ISRAEL:
“And the heathen shall know that I am Yahweh, the Holy One in Israel.” Ezekiel 39:7
1. Kaddosh Yisrael: 32 times in the Scriptures it uses the phrase:
2. “The Holy One OF Israel”
3. Only once is it translated as: “the Holy One IN Israel” Ezekiel 39:7
D. REASON # 4: ISRAEL AND THE NATIONS COME TO FAITH: AFTER THIS EVENT, GOD’S NAME WILL NO LONGER BE PROFANED.
1. God Himself says that after the defeat of Gog and his armies, all of the Gentile Nations as well as Israel will be convicted of their unbelief and will know that He (Yahweh) is God:
So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward. (Ezekiel 39:22)
2. This can only happen after they accept their Messiah Jesus. Jesus told them that they would not see him again until they recognized Him as being from God.
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. (Luke 13:35, Matthew 23:39)
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem… And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (Zechariah 12:9-10)
3. Not Only Israel, but all nations will come to faith. God will NO LONGER allow his name to be blasphemed.
And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am Yahweh.’ I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in safety in the coastlands, and they will know that I am Yahweh… ” ‘I will make known my holy name among my people Israel. I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, and the nations will know that I Yahweh am the Holy One in Israel. It is coming! It will surely take place, declares Yahweh the Sovereign. This is the day I have spoken of. (Ezekiel 38:23-39:7-8)
4. Everything about the events and Scriptural language in this passage indicate that this war is no mere opening act to the Great Tribulation, but is rather the magnificent capstone of that period that will have a decisive effect on all nations worldwide.
5. How could God say that after the defeat of Gog and Magog, that his name would no longer be profaned if this were speaking about an event that came just prior to the coming forth of the Antichrist who will literally spend three and a half years openly blaspheming God’s name, all the while gathering a global following in the process? Does that make any sense at all?
6. The description of what will take place after Gog’s destruction is one that can only be applied to that period after Christ returns and has utterly destroyed all of His enemies.
E. REASON #5 GOG WAS REFERRED TO BY THE FORMER PROPHETS: GOD DECLARES THAT GOG IS THE ANTICHRIST
1. Ezekiel also says specifically of Gog that other biblical prophets spoke of him in times past:
This is what Yahweh the Sovereign says: Are you (Gog) not the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel? At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them. (Ezekiel 38:17)
Thus saith the Lord God, to Gog; Thou art he concerning whom I spoke in former times, by the hand of my servants the prophets of Israel, in those days and years, that I would bring thee up against them. - Septuagint Translation
2. If Gog and Magog are spoken of by Israel’s former prophets prior to Ezekiel, then where are all of these references?
3. If Gog is Russia, then I challenge anyone to show me one passage anywhere in the Prophets where God is speaking about Russia.
4. This would include almost every OT book other than Haggai, Zechariah, Daniel and Malachi
5. In fact, I have yet to see one single treatment of this subject by those who claim that Gog is not the Antichrist.
6. If we do take the position that Gog is Antichrist however, then it is very easy to find numerous passages about Antichrist and his invading army throughout the prophets.
IV. CONCLUSION:
ALL THE PROPHETS SPEAK OF THIS SAME EVENT. They all have the same ending. The story is always the same. A group of nations attack Israel, God steps in to save them, and they return to God forever. All the prophets speak of these same issues and they all end with Israel with God forever after – “from that day forward”.
Brief Addendum:
Arguments not dealt with here:
The Mountains issue. Simply put, “on the mountains of Israel” is simply an expression that means the whole land of Israel. To read this in a hyper-literal fashion is to ignore the immediate context of Ezekiel 36. In essence it would be like saying “all across the fruited plains” of America. One is not merely speaking about plains, but all of the USA. Thus in Ezekiel 36, God tells Ezekiel to prophecy to the Mountains of Israel and say… to the mountains, ravines, cities valleys etc etc etc.
The burning of weapons issue: Some claim that there is no need to burn weapons in the millennium. Why then will there be the need to beat swords into plowshares? Yet we know that this takes place. Simply put, life goes on during the millennium. Fuel for cooking or for light or for simple cleanup will continue. Just because Jesus is present, all things are not simply done through magic.
A few other arguments are made through silence. This or that is not mentioned, therefore it is not part of this story. If this same logic were applied to the gospels, one would have to conclude that they are all different stories. Yet we know that they are the same.
The most common error that some make in attempting to say that Ezekiel 38 39 is not talking about the AC is to compare it in isolation to Rev 19 / Battle of Armageddon. Yet this is the same thing that many cults do: they build doctrines on isolated passages while ignoring the wealth of other passages that speak to this issue. Thus to determine if Gog is the AC we must examine it next to all of the Antichrist passages and not just Revelation 19. Common sense.
Lastly, some claim that in Armageddon, every nation is involved while Gog Magog Battle is limited. First, the Gog battle is not limited but left open. “many nations with you” it says. Second, we must remember that the Antichrist coalition is primarily ten nations with many others eventually joining as well. But every last nation of the earth is not with the Antichrist. This is another whole study and there is not enough room or time for me to add it all here but suffice it to say that the AC does not rule every last nation on the earth, otherwise there would be utter peace, yet the AC is at war until the very end. War necessitates resitors. Daniel 11 actually names nations that escape his hand. But again, perhaps we can deal in detail with this issue at a later time. Blessings all, Joel
May 19th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
May I post this on my forum for discussion?
May 19th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
Sure thing.
May 19th, 2009 at 8:03 pm
Joel
I guess this means you believe we are near the end of the 1000 year millennial reign of Christ, and about to start the white throne judgment, and that Satan is now bound, as stated in Revelations 20:7-15?
May 19th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
Nope.
The idea that the Gog and Magog of Rev is the same as in Ezekiel is a very minority position, fraught with even more problems than the position that it is a pre-trib event.
If the “Gog and Magog” mentioned in Revelation were the same as the Gog and Magog mentioned in Ezekiel, then it would also stand to reason that during the millennium, most of Israel and the nations do not know God, even under the reign of Christ. That is the first problem, among several.
Instead, we should understand the term “Gog and Magog” in Rev as essentially a euphemism for Satan’s man and his armies in the earth.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
thanks for posting these bro
May 19th, 2009 at 9:57 pm
Joel
So does this mean you believe in two Gog/Magog wars; the Ezekiel prophecy and the Revelations prophecy, 1000 years apart?
May 19th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
I havent had a chance to read yet but I think notes can be very helpful and may make more sense some times.
May 19th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
Joel,
I totally agree bro. This is the only interpetation of EZE 38-39 that I believe makes any sense and can be substantiated by scripture. Good notes!
May 19th, 2009 at 11:21 pm
Joel,
that was excellent. I have thought for some time that the prophets were telling the same story but hardly a soul would scope it out with me.
It is obvious the scriptures have a running theme.
Also it kept coming to me that if we overlaid the passages just as you did above we would see the continuity.
The Gog/Magog battle at the end of 1000 years is imo simply satan being called by his former names in a final sifting of mankind before the Great White Throne Judgement.
One thing that puzzles me tho. If the AC is revealed when he declares himself God then what would be a sign to know we are into the final week?
Pretribs for example watch for a kick off war but the truth is there is not kick off war. Daniel says this person comes in peace that destroys with a small number of people right?
And today we are seeing a big increase in the signs Jesus told us of and imo correlation to the first several seals of revelation 6.
So what would tell us we have entered the final week? Perhaps it is that not knowing for sure that Jesus and others warned about being decieved and caught up in the cares of life?
Thoughts?
blessings
May 20th, 2009 at 1:33 am
Joel, I agree with you 100%. Good post.
May 20th, 2009 at 5:33 am
Gord,
Yes. The Battle mentioned in Ezekiel is that which all the prophets are talking about. The one mentioned in Revelation is the only time that this particular final last hoorah of Satan is ever mentioned anywhere in Scripture. We are given very little info on this. But given its proximity to me, I am not too concerned for now.
Laura,
When the comprehensive treaty is “confirmed” then the seven year clock begins ticking. This is the time maker that Daniel 9 gives us.
May 20th, 2009 at 6:27 am
Thank you for finally showing me the truth to this whole Gog vs Revelations debate by using the Bible itself to prove your point. I wish I could understood and memorize the scriptures as well as you. This is probably one of your best posts I’ve ever read…
Slap Happy
What other ‘notes’ can you post for us to read ??
May 20th, 2009 at 6:40 am
Joel, do you have any ‘notes’ about the Rapture ??
That’s one subject that I would love to have stettled once and for all. I’ve had it put into my head since I was a child but for some reason it just doesn’t add up to me. The whole ‘rapture’ scenario seems like wishful thinking to me but, once again, I don’t know the scriptures well enough to figure this out for myself…
May 20th, 2009 at 8:16 am
Joel,
While saying the church today is largely Old Testament ignorant is accurate, it does not tell the whole story and seems more of a way to block people from thinking because the assumption is that we are ignorant. The truth is that many in the church are ingnorant of the new testamant also and it may be worse when it comes to knowledge of the old testament. However there are those who study the Bible and have a different viewpoint and it’s not just because they don’t have the so called “eastern” mindset.
First you say that the prophets all spoke of the same thing. But Jewish people originally thought the prohpets were talking about one coming of Jesus but they were wrong.
You also say that this is one prophecy that hasn’t been partially fulfilled. Just because it hasn’t doesn’t mean that it won’t be partially fulfilled in the future and then completely fulfilled farther down the road.
You can have similarities in two wars because the same evil is at work. Satan will be behind both attacks.
I’m not tied to Ezekiel happening before anything else and I think you could be right with your conclusion, it could also be that Ezekiel happens somewhere slightly different in the percieved timeline.
My issue is that your notes and arguments don’t seem completely accurate and or completely convincing at least. I appreciate your work on the subject and I don’t think you have come to this conclusion without putting in work it just doesn’t all seem to fit to me. I know many disagree with me but I also know that there are those who are logical and not dogmatic about EU Antichrist who also feel that something is lacking in this explanation.
It’s nothing worth arguing over, as you have made a good case, it just falls short of being a full explanation for me.
Some of what you are saying I agree with but not everyone who sees Ezekiel 38 different from you sees it exactly as the Joel Rosenberg viewpoint either. Just for example I don’t think the Muslims will be wiped out in that battle if it is to occur before the end.
May 20th, 2009 at 8:21 am
Bonjour Joel,
Merci beaucoup…Toda Rabah for your notes. Spot on as usual!
;-)
Slap happy, if the following can be of help…its aim is to demonstrate that the pre-trib raputure is not biblical.
I started questioning the pre-trib rapture teaching when none of the pastors I spoke to were able to answer two simple questions I had about the issue!
The first one was: Where are the verses, in both the old and the new testament, where it talks about 3 distinct coming of Christ?
Jesus came once as the humble servant who came to die to redeem us from our sins. The Bible tells us that He is coming back as a King to reign in Jerusalem for one thousand years. If prior to His return, He is to come secretly to rapture His elects, then that clearly makes 3 distinct comings, doesn’t it?.
My second question was: where in the Scriptures do we clearly see there is a hidden coming of the Messiah to rapture the “Church”?
Nobody was able to answer these two questions without having to allegorise verses and take them out of their context. The Holy Spirit had me search the Scriptures for myself, like good Bereans He wants us to be, and I came to the conclusion that whenever the Bible mentions the second coming of Jesus, that’s when His elects are gathered with Him. Nowhere could I find a 7 year gap between the 2 events.
Let me try to show you what I understood from Paul and John regarding the rapture issue. Look at the following verses:
“But I would not have you ignorant, brothers, concerning those who are asleep, that you be not grieved, even as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
Paul gives us interesting clues here: For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God.
In the following Scriptures he gives us more:
“Behold, I speak a MYSTERY to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed; in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.” (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)
According to the mystery, the “rapture” will take place at the last trumpet. Now the question is when is the last trumpet? What does the Bible reveal to us about it?
Revelation 8:2 tells us:
“And I saw the seven angels who stood before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.”
Notice the angel? I believe we are clearly dealing with the voice of the archangel we read in the verse above. Here we learn about 7 trumpets. Paul talks about the last trumpet being the one where the change/rapture will take place.
I invite you to read about the 7 trumpets in Revelation chapters 8 to 11. Pay attention to what John tells us just before the 7th and last trumpet is blown :
“But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he will begin to sound, the MYSTERY of God should be finished, as He has declared to His servants the prophets.” (Revelation 10:7 MKJV)
What is this mystery. Could it be the exact same one Paul is talking about in First Cor 15.51? I believe it is.
Now let us see what happens at the last trumpet:
“And the seventh angel sounded. And there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ. And He will reign forever and ever.” (Revelation 11:15)
We see that at the seventh trumpet, Yeshua is coming back to take His kingdom. Next, in Revelation 11.18, we are going to be told that the time of God’s wrath has arrived:
“And the nations were full of wrath, and Your wrath came, and the time of the judging of the dead, and to give the reward to Your servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to the ones fearing Your name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those destroying the earth.” (Revelation 11:18)
Just prior to the wrath of God, we see Yeshua will judge the dead prior to their coming back to life (the dead shall be raised incorruptible), and He will give the reward to His servants the prophets, and to the saints (we shall all be changed/Ruptured).
As you can see, everything takes place at the same time: the second return in Glory, the reward of the faithful (rapture) and then the wrath. Do you see a 7 year gap?
Blessings to y’all,
FX
May 20th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
Joel, quick question. In your opinion, how long could the Gog-Magog war last? I believe that it could begin as early as the “mid-point” (shortly after the Abomination of Desolation) and continue right up until it is culminated at Armageddon.
With respect to the arguments against the idea that Gog-Magog is Armageddon, I’ve read one other argument stating that Ezekiel 40 and beyond describe the “tribulation temple” in Jerusalem after the Gog-Magog battle, which must therefore mean that the Gog-Magog battle occurs prior to the tribulation. However, it should be pointed out that Ezekiel was not describing any sort of “tribulation temple” to be constructed on the Temple Mount in Ezekiel 40. Ezekiel, in fact, “describes in great detail a temple in Israel that is much too large to fit on the present Temple Mount site. The Temple of Ezekiel proper measures about 875 feet square, and it sits in the middle of a large consecrated area. Ezekiel’s temple is also very different in many details from any previous temples that have existed in Israel (or elsewhere). Therefore most Bible scholars believe there will one day exist in the Holy Land a Fourth or ‘Millennial’ Temple.
Ezekiel also describes the reapportionment of the land in specific lots during the millennial kingdom. The temple and the temple district are not part of the rebuilt city of Jerusalem according to the details of this reapportionment. Note that the Temple area will be located to the North of rebuilt Jerusalem…
According to many Christian Bible scholars, the Fourth Temple (Ezekiel 40-45) will be ‘memorial’ - a teaching center apparently to instruct men about the holiness of God and proper worship during the coming kingdom of Jesus on the earth. As sinful men and women continue to be born into the world in the millennium, the temple is supposed to remind everyone of the substitutionary death of Jesus on the cross, as the ‘Lamb of God,’ some two thousand years earlier.”
In light of this, anyone who wishes to argue that Ezekiel’s temple is sequential to the Gog-Magog war should therefore acknowledge that the Gog-Magog war in Ezekiel in fact comes to an end at Armageddon due to the details that Ezekiel himself provides regarding the temple of Ezek 40 - 45.
http://www.templemount.org/ezektmp.html
May 20th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Brother in Christ, Joel
Thanks for posting all these biblical prophecies here and the current events that are closely associated with the end time bible prophecy. Can i post this as my blog in my website and cite you as the author? GOD bless your heart.
In Christ,
Queenie
May 20th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Slap Happy,
For a good easy read on the Rapture, I would recommend Pastor Ralph Woodrow’s The Secret Rapture: Is it Scriptural? or Steve Moutria’s presentation on the latest DVD that we just released.
Mitchell here is also excellent at articulating the reasons for a post-trib rapture. Feel free to share Mitchell.
Larry A,
I agree that mere numerous commonalities are not enough to prove my case, but the remaining arguments in the presentation are fairy water tight. None of them have been discussed in any opposing treatements of this subject. None that I have ever found at least. The fact that Christ is present and that all Israel is saved etc. These are pretty hard to get around. In any case…
Bless you, Joel
May 20th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
Just a side comment, but I came across this rubbish on the BBC website about 10 top tips to make a prophecy:
1. Predict Something That Has Already Happened
The classic method of prophecy: this works best if you claim to have made your prophecy much earlier than you actually did.
For example, the Old Testament book of Genesis (agreed by most scholars to have reached its current form sometime around 550 BC) predicts the fall of Canaan in around 1100 BC1.
8. Falsify Events to Make it Appear Your Prophecy Has Been Fulfilled
It appears that the writers of the gospels known as Matthew and Luke based their accounts on the previously-existing gospel of Mark, but added in details that allowed Jesus to appear to fulfil Old Testament prophecies such as being born in Bethlehem or not having bones in his legs broken on the cross.
I could answer these critiques myself, but if there is anyone in this thread who could provide a really good water tight answer with facts that I personally don’t have then I’ll contact the BBC with it.
May 20th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
Hi slap happy, with respect to a post-trib rapture, there are numerous reasons from Scripture why it is post-trib. I’ll post a few points and try to be as concise as I can (I’m not known for being concise sometimes!)
* The pre-trib teaching states that “Since the word ‘church’ is not used after Rev 3:22 then the tribulation does not apply to the church.” Answer: That is a pretty weak argument in my opinion. The book of Revelation is an epistle, so it was written for the Church. As for the word “church” not being used after Revelation 3, keep in mind that the church isn’t mentioned in Mark, Luke, John, Galatians, Ephesians, 2 Peter, 1 John and 2 John either, and not until the 16th chapter of Romans, so I guess if Revelation doesn’t apply to the church because the word “church” isn’t used after 3:22 then using that logic a large portion of the entire New Testament doesn’t apply to the church either.
The word “saint” or “saints” however is used 59 times in the New Testament, referring to believers in Christ (ie, the church). This term is used repeatedly in Revelation for the church as well. For instance, Christians are directly mentioned in Revelation 14:12, saying “Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus”, and Revelation 20:4-5 says in no uncertain terms that those who do not worship the beast or receive the mark and are killed for “the witness of Jesus” and will rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years.
Now here is an important point, and it is one that caused me to seriously consider the post-trib position when I was pre-trib. Those who reign with Christ are raised at the first resurrection (Rev 20:5), which is AFTER the tribulation. The dead in Christ rise first, THEN we who are alive and remain will be caught up with them (raptured). If the first resurrection is after the tribulation, then there is no resurrection before it, and if there is no resurrection before the tribulation then therefore there is no rapture before the tribulation. (Also, why would the text say those who are “alive and remain” if the rapture was pre-trib?) The only way for the pre-trib teaching to get around this dilemma is to separate the first resurrection into “phases”, which is not supported in Scripture at all. In fact, due to the “phases” contention the pre-trib position is essentially stating that before the first resurrection is even fully completed that the rapture takes place, yet Scripture is clear that the dead in Christ rise first, THEN we who are alive and remain will be caught up. Obviously, per Revelation 20, there are still many dead in Christ at the end of the tribulation.
* The pre-trib teaching contends that “The tribulation is the wrath of God, and since we are not appointed to wrath (1 Thess 5:9), then the rapture must happen before the tribulation.” The first error here is the assumption that the tribulation is the wrath of God. Nowhere in Scripture do we read that this is the wrath of God. Regarding the wrath we are not appointed to according to 1 Thess 5:9, the Greek word is “orge”. In Revelation, the “orge” of God “is found only six times in the book, and it is always used in a post-tribulational setting. It accompanies the cosmic signs and revealing of the Lord at the sixth seal (6:16, 17); it is found after the seventh trumpet (11:18); it is used to describe the final torment of unbelievers in hell (14:10); it is found after the seventh bowl (16:19); and it is used in connection with Christ’s second coming (19:15). Therefore, there is no problem reconciling the promise of deliverance from God’s ‘orge’ with a post-tribulational rapture. Every time this promise is made, this word ‘orge’ is used. If the ‘orge’ does not take place until after the tribulation is over and the church is raptured, then God’s promise is kept.”
http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/post/link3.htm#Anchor6
* The pre-trib teaching believes that “Revelation 3:10 promises to keep us from the hour of temptation, which means we are removed from the earth during the tribulation.” Rev 3:10 says, “Because thou has kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, that shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth.”
Jesus says “keep thee from”, not “remove thee from”. The Greek for “keep thee from” in Revelation 3:10 is “tereo ek” and is the exact wording used in John 17:15: “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.”
The Greek “tereo” means “to attend to carefully; take care of; to guard; to reserve; to keep, one in the state in which he is” and does not mean to remove from the earth but to rather watch over during the time of testing. Jesus even prayed in John 17:15 “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world”. Revelation 3:10 is saying that we will be kept from the hour of temptation by being watched over, guarded, during this time and not removed from it. The elect will be deceived if it were possible, but Christ will keep us from the evil of these deceptions during that time. The protection is spiritual, not physical. Many of us have children that attend public school, but we protect them or keep them from false teachings such as Darwinian evolution. How? We watch over them and keep them grounded in the Truth of Scripture, not by removing them from school.
Let’s look at some other translations and how they’ve rendered Revelation 3:10:
Rev 3:10, “Because you kept my Word in passionate patience, I’ll keep you safe in the time of testing that will be here soon, and all over the earth, every man, woman, and child put to the test.” (MSG)
Rev 3:10, “Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world.” (NLT)
Rev 3:10, “You have obeyed my word and been patient. So I will keep you safe in the time of trouble which will come all over the world. It will test the people who live on earth.” (WE)
Rev 3:10, “You obeyed my message and endured. So I will protect you from the time of testing that everyone in all the world must go through.” (CEV)
Many will die “for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God” because they will not have “worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.” The soul is more important than the body.
* We’ll often hear our pre-trib brothers and sister say “look up” when referring to the rapture, referring to Luke 21:28. But when are we told to look up? Let’s look at the immediate context of this verse:
Luke 21:25, “And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”
This is when we are then told to look up: Luke 21:28, “And when these things begin to come to pass, THEN look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.”
* Notice the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars. Jesus says these signs occur immediately after the tribulation in Matthew 24:29. This is when He sends His angels to gather the elect, not before. Also notice the revealing of the Son of man coming in power and great glory immediately after the tribulation. What does Peter say regarding the revealing of His glory? 1 Pet 4:13, “But rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy.” This would make little sense for a pre-trib rapture, which states that His coming is in secret. His glory is only revealed at His Second Coming after the tribulation.
* In 2 Thess 2:1-5 Paul writes that our gathering to Christ (the rapture) happens on the Day of the Lord. Joel 2:31 says that the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the Day of the Lord. Jesus says in Matt 24:29 that those cosmic signs only happen immediately AFTER the tribulation. Therefore, if these cosmic signs happen before the day of the Lord, and if Jesus places the signs as happening after the tribulation, then the Day of the Lord and therefore the rapture can only happen after the tribulation. The pre-trib teaching will skirt around this by attempting to create more than on Day of the Lord or by redefining the Scriptural definition of the Day of the Lord by claiming that it is different from synonymous language such as the “day of Christ” or “day of the Lord Jesus Christ” instead of accepting this explicit timing from Scripture. Btw, also notice that Paul in 2 Thess 2:3 says that the before the day of the Lord (and therefore the rapture) that the man of sin (Antichrist) must be revealed. The pre-trib position contradicts this by teaching that the rapture happens before the revealing of Antichrist.
Ok that’s longer than I intended to post, I hope it helps!
May 21st, 2009 at 7:05 am
Could the Gog Magog War happen at the end of the Millenium? Revelation 20: 7-9 reads:
Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
May 21st, 2009 at 7:14 am
Todd, see my comments above.
May 21st, 2009 at 10:28 am
Joel:
It took me 20 years of intense study to come to the same conclusion you reached, though I also lean a bit toward partial preterist positions.
When I found your website, it was literally a breath of fresh air.
I don’t know whether you follow some of the ultra-Orthodox Jewish blogs — Shirat Devorah and Geulah Perspectives are good starting points — but all are in agreement that calamitous events are about to happen and are warning Jews to make aliyah now.
Finally, can you offer a comment on the Jewish concept of two messiahs — Mosiasch ben Josef and Mosiasch ben David? It’s interesting that they talk of two messiahs while Christians talk of the same Messiah coming twice. I came to the conclusion about 25 years ago that Mosiasch ben Josef is the first incarnation of Jesus while Mossiach ben David is the second coming.
Blessings,
-Michael
May 21st, 2009 at 2:17 pm
The prewrath rapture position (variously defined but in all cases after the 6th Seal) has grown in popularity in recent years and has definitely overtaken mid-trib in popularity. It solves some of the logic problems in pre-trib and post-trib.
http://www.prewrathrapture.com
May 21st, 2009 at 2:28 pm
Nick, in your view what logic problems of post-trib does pre-wrath solve? If the pre-wrath position is after the 6th seal per your post above, and if the 6th seal brings about the cosmic signs that happen “immediately after the tribulation” according to Jesus in Matthew 24:29, then the pre-wrath position is in essence post-trib as well.
Revelation 6:12-13, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.”
Matthew 24:29, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:”
Per my previous post, the wrath (orge) that we are not appointed to is only used six times in the book of Revelation and is always used in a post-trib setting.
May 21st, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Michael,
The concept of Moshiach Ben Yusuf and David are simply Jewish ways of dealing with the scriptures that seemingly point to two different messiahs. But of course, we know what the truth is and as you said, Jesus fulfilled the passages about the suffering servant etc first time around and will fulfill the remainder when he returns. There are two books released at least fifteen years or more ago called just that Moshiach Ben Yusuf and David.
As for partial preterism, most futurists are also partial preterists in that we see dual fulfillment of numerous passages. In this sense, I am a partial preterist. However, if what is meant is that the events of 70 AD were the primary fulfillment of any major prophecy simply is unbiblical IMO.
Bless You!
May 21st, 2009 at 5:03 pm
MItchell,
The Prewrath position solves an important problem that post-tribs have traditionally wrestled with. Prewrath asserts that the rapture/resurrection takes place sometime during the second half of the 70th week–not the end of the 70th week.
Post-tribs have always had problems with what to do with the Day of the Lord’s wrath. Some have placed it at a single 24-hour day at the end of the 70th week. But the problem with this is that the nature of the Day of the Lord will take a period of time to unfold (even the 5th trumpet is said to be 5 months in duration.)
And other post-tribs have rightly seen that the Day of the Lord will unfold over time, not just a single 24-hour day. But they end up placing the Day of the Lord as occurring at the same time as the Great Tribulation; in essence having the Church on earth during God’s wrath. But this is in error as well since Scripture indicates that the Day of the Lord’s wrath will follow _after_ the Antichrist’s Great Tribulation when it is cut short.
I hope this helps to see the significance between the two positions–at least one of the important differences. I have posted recently on post-trib here:
http://www.prewrathrapture.com/2009/05/where_do_believers_go_after_they_are_uni.php
Thank you,
Alan
May 21st, 2009 at 8:16 pm
Western Mediterranean defence ministers approve joint security measures
http://www.magharebia.com/cocoon/awi/xhtml1/en_GB/features/awi/features/2009/05/20/feature-01
Joint training, military co-operation are the key to regional stability, 5+5 defence officials agreed Sunday in Tripoli.
Western Mediterranean defence ministers and other officials converged in Tripoli on Sunday (May 17th) for their fifth meeting on co-operation and security in the region.
As part of the 5+5 Western Mediterranean defence initiative, officials from Libya, Algeria, France, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Malta, Tunisia, Morocco and Mauritania reviewed last year’s achievements and outlined next year’s goals.
Libya also handed over the 5+5 defence initiative group’s rotating presidency to Malta at the weekend session.
Participants saw a film highlighting member states’ co-operative capabilities in preventing acts of terror in the air, on sea and on land. The meetings also discussed ways to exchange information, co-ordinate between army commanders of the different countries and boost the role of women in the armed forces.
Quote:
“This meeting”, said Abu Bakr Jaber Younis, Secretary of the General Temporary Defence Committee in Libya during his opening remarks, “will produce positive results that will provide the peoples of the area with good, security and prosperity”.
May 21st, 2009 at 9:31 pm
Alan - “Prewrath asserts that the rapture/resurrection takes place sometime during the second half of the 70th week–not the end of the 70th week ….”
You mentioned the fifth trumpet in your post as well, which I believe is prior to the day of the Lord. Everything I read in Scripture regarding the Day of the Lord indicates to me that it only happens after the tribulation, not during it, and the fifth trumpet is during the tribulation. Whether that Day is a literal 24-hour period or a little longer is moot really. Christ can defeat the invading armies and smite the nations that come up against Israel in an instant if He so desired.
* Revelation 6:12 has the sun & moon darkening after the opening of the sixth seal.
* Joel 2:31 says that these cosmic signs happen before the Day of the Lord.
* Matthew 24:29 places these cosmic signs as happening immediately after the tribulation.
From the verses above we have a specific sequence of events that pinpoint for us when the day of the Lord takes place. The darkening of the sun & moon will occur between the end of the tribulation and the day of the Lord, therefore the day of the Lord will not happen at any time during the tribulation.
Moreover, Isaiah 2:10-19 tells us that during the Day of the Lord idols will be abolished and the Lord alone will be exalted in that day, and no one else. During the great tribulation however Antichrist will exalt himself above God and be worshiped, as will his image. The cosmic signs as well as Isaiah’s description of that day prohibits the Day of the Lord from extending into the tribulation period.
We know that Paul’s description of our gathering unto Christ (the rapture) is clearly tied in with the Day of the Lord in 2 Thess 2:1-3, a day that he specifically tells us to watch for in 1 Thess 5:2-6. Since Paul gives us the timing of the rapture as occurring on the Day of the Lord, and since the Day of the Lord does not extend into the tribulation and only takes place after it, the rapture therefore can only take place after the tribulation.
I’d like to ask a couple of questions if I may Alan.
1. How do you view the book of Revelation - is it sequential in your view, or do you take into account its Semitic style of writing?
2. The prewrath position is placing the start of the Day of the Lord somewhere during the second half of the 70th week, but on what Scriptural basis?
3. Is the rapture and Christ’s return in power and glory the same event, or is Christ not physically present during the prewrath rapture?
May 21st, 2009 at 11:26 pm
Mitchell,
Thanks for your comments. My responses are below each of your statements:
“You mentioned the fifth trumpet in your post as well, which I believe is prior to the day of the Lord.”
Prewrath understands the trumpets and the bowls as constituent of the Day of the Lord’s wrath. When the scroll is opened after the seven seals are unsealed, God’s judgments unfold through the trumpets and bowls.
“Everything I read in Scripture regarding the Day of the Lord indicates to me that it only happens after the tribulation, not during it, and the fifth trumpet is during the tribulation.”
The term “the tribulation” is not a precise term. Do you mean the Great Tribulation that begins at the midpoint? Or are you referring to the 7 years period?
“Whether that Day is a literal 24-hour period or a little longer is moot really. Christ can defeat the invading armies and smite the nations that come up against Israel in an instant if He so desired.”
But if Scripture reveals that the nature of the Day of the Lord’s wrath is such that it will unfold over an undetermined length of time (the fifth trumpet itself is 5 months long) then it is not a moot point, but a Biblical reality.
“From the verses above we have a specific sequence of events that pinpoint for us when the day of the Lord takes place. The darkening of the sun & moon will occur between the end of the tribulation and the day of the Lord, therefore the day of the Lord will not happen at any time during the tribulation.”
The Bible does not teach that the cosmic disturbances will occur at the end of the 7 years. That is a wrong assumption. Jesus say in Matthew 24 that the Great Tribulation will be “cut short” which he says happens at the Cosmic Disturbances. When is it cut short? Jesus says that we do not know the day or the hour of his Return which will happen during those Cosmic Disturbances.
“Moreover, Isaiah 2:10-19 tells us that during the Day of the Lord idols will be abolished and the Lord alone will be exalted in that day, and no one else. During the great tribulation however Antichrist will exalt himself above God and be worshiped, as will his image. The cosmic signs as well as Isaiah’s description of that day prohibits the Day of the Lord from extending into the tribulation period.”
It is an unwarranted assumption that the Great Tribulation is 3 ½ years in duration. The Great Tribulation begins at the midpoint (Mt 24:15; Dan 9:27) it will unfold until it is, to use Jesus’ term, “cut short.” Indeed the Antichrist will be given rule over the saints for 3:1/2 years, even the two witnesses are killed by his authority at the end of the 70th week; but though the Lord alone will be exalted during the Day of the Lord, it is a leap to say that there will not be _any_ rebellion at all. If that was the case, then one could not say that the Lord is exalted during the millennium because there will be a concerted rebellion toward the end. Antichrist’s authority is, to use Paul’s term in 2Th 2:8, paralyzed (katargēsei). He still has authority de jure but his power is severely limited for the remaining 70th week.
“I’d like to ask a couple of questions if I may Alan.
1. How do you view the book of Revelation - is it sequential in your view, or do you take into account its Semitic style of writing?
2. The prewrath position is placing the start of the Day of the Lord somewhere during the second half of the 70th week, but on what Scriptural basis?
3. Is the rapture and Christ’s return in power and glory the same event, or is Christ not physically present during the prewrath rapture?”
(1) I have read the Book of Revelation in the Greek a number of times and am well familiar with its Semitisms, in lexeme and syntax. But that is not the issue. It is context and literary elements that concern us. For example, the fact of the three woes make an impossibility a concurrent or recapitulation interpretation of the trumpets and bowls. There is some recapitulation in the book of Revelation, but it does not extend to the seals, trumpets, and bowls. The nature of the 5th, 6th, and 7 trumpets (which are the woes) make recapitulation unintelligible unless one completely ignores the major differences and selectively only see the few similarities between seals, trumpets, and bowls.
(2) On the basis that Jesus says the great tribulation is cut short and followed by the Day of the Lord’s wrath. I have had many ex-post-tribbers tell me that once they saw that, it solved their questions about what to do about God’s wrath. They often had an accordion affect to God’s wrath squeezing it into a 24-hour day, which is not possible given the Biblical data on the nature of the Day of the Lord.
(3) The Rapture and the parousia are not the same event. That would be like saying the birth of Christ and the first coming of Christ is the same event. The birth of Christ initiated the first coming but should not be identified as the first Coming as if that is all that constituted it. But the birth of Christ was not the whole, but a part of his Coming. During the first Coming, God fulfilled certain Divine purposes: Jesus’ birth, ministry of teaching, healing, the cross, burial, and resurrection.
As well the Second Coming of Christ be a comprehensive whole in which God will fulfill certain Divine purposes and events. We are informed that God’s first Divine purposes will be to raise the dead in the resurrection and rapture those believers who are remaining on earth at that time. Then the Coming will continue to unfold with the Day of the Lord’s wrath, Armageddon consummation of the Kingdom with his physical rule, Israel’s salvation, and the ushering in of the Millennial age.
I hope that helps. But I want to encourage you to read some substantive primary prewrath literature such as Marvin Rosenthal’s book, The Prewrath Rapture of the Church. Here is a primer though:
http://www.prewrathrapture.com/2005/11/the_prewrath_rapture_1.php
Thank you,
Alan
May 22nd, 2009 at 12:32 am
Thank you for your explanation Alan. It seems that one of the major sticking points is where Christ said in Matthew 24:22 that “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.” My view of this statement is not that God will reduce the time that Antichrist is given to rule. Personally, I believe that interpretation to be a misconception that many assume from the text. In my view Scripture is clear time and again by telling us precisely how long Antichrist is given to rule and persecute the saints:
Daniel 7:25 says that “The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time”. A specific length of time. Why would Daniel be inspired of the Spirit to provide a specific lengh of time if the real truth is that it is less?
Daniel 9:27 says that Antichrist will set up an abomination of desolation “until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” Again, a specific amount of time, and in this verse it is explicit that the Abomination of Desolation will be set up until the end that is decreed. What is decreed? Daniel already tells us in 7:25.
Revelation 13:5-7 also tells us exactly how long Antichrist is permitted to exercise his authority, which is 42 months. Again, a specific length of time. Why would John be inspired of the Spirit to provide a specific number of months (which just so happens to match Daniel’s length of time exactly) if the real truth is that it is less?
So here we have multiple Scriptures telling us precisely how long Antichrist will be given to rule. We are even told how long the two witnesses will prophecy. If the AC’s rule of 42 months is cut short in the way that you describe, then the 1260 days given to the two witnesses is cut short as well since it is the AC who kills them, yet Rev 11:3-6 is clear that they prophecy for 1260 days. Whether it is called “a time, times and half a time”, “42 months” or “1260 days” they are all a specific length of time. So, the question is, how do we reconcile this specific time length with Jesus’ statement that the days would be shorted for the sake of the elect? It is simpler than one may think. Scripture does not contradict Scripture, and I believe that what Christ is saying is that if the Antichrist were allowed to continue beyond the 42 months that he is given then no flesh would be saved, but for the sake of the elect of God the Antichrist’s reign is cut short so that he can only exercise his authority for precisely the time that is decreed — a time, times and half a time. Daniel 9:27 is pretty clear to state that he will be allowed to rule “until the end that is decreed”.
You mentioned above that Jesus says we do not know the day or the hour when He will return, but here is something for your consideration. The words of Christ are in Matt. 24:36; 25:13 and Mark 13:32 when He said that no one knows the day or hour of His return. Is what Jesus said here true? Everything that Christ says is truth, so yes. However, Revelation 3:3 presents a problem for the belief that “we can never know the day or hour”. In my view I think that Revelation 3:3 alone, not to mention Matthew 24 and Luke 21 as a whole, are serious problems for the idea that we can never and will never know the hour of His return.
Revelation 3:3 says, “Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.”
This statement by Jesus is often overlooked, but it reveals something that is very significant and profound: IF we do not watch He WILL come upon us as a thief and we WILL NOT know what hour He will come upon us. If this verse is true, then the inverse must also be true: If we DO watch, He WILL NOT come upon us as a thief, and we WILL know. If this is correct, and if we watch and can know, then the prewrath view has a bit of a problem from a textual standpoint.
Christ’s words in Revelation 3:3 are true just as His words in Matt 24:36. So, how could Jesus say that we could never know the day or the hour of His return and then imply that we could know in Revelation 3:3? As mentioned previously, Scripture cannot contradict Scripture so either one of the verses is wrong (which is not possible), or our understanding is wrong somewhere. It’s not hard to figure out which one it is.
Let’s look at them again: Mat 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only”. Are there other clues here that can help us to resolve the seemingly contradictory statements by Christ? Yes. If we look more closely we realize that it doesn’t say anywhere in this verse, nor in the context of Matthew 24 or elsewhere, that we can not know, and that we will never know. It only says, in the present tense, that we do not know when He will return. A few verses later in Matthew 24:42 Jesus tells us to WATCH for the signs that He just gave us BECAUSE we do not know the day or hour of His return. Since we do not know the day or hour of His return today we must watch for those signs that He provided, which is exactly what He alluded to in Revelation 3:3. This is also the exact same thing that Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5, telling us that the Day of the Lord is our gathering unto Christ, and that that day — the Day of the Lord — will NOT overtake us as a thief IF WE WATCH.
Much more could be said, but any longer and we’ll start writing books
Mitchell
May 22nd, 2009 at 3:12 am
Joel,
This is a very useful summary.
Could you post it as a separate sidebar entry (Possibly under “Categories”
So that it can be accessed readily?
Actually if you had other similar entries (”proofs”) that you could also post under a similar sidebar heading that would allow visitors to quickly view this info.
Thanks for the info!
This is a good summary of your views
May 22nd, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Joel did you see the above news bite from me?
May 23rd, 2009 at 6:44 am
this is great contextual stuff, joel
May 23rd, 2009 at 12:00 pm
First an article from USA:
http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=98895
The reasoning in the above comments is correct in principle, but needs some clarifications.
1. The king of the North (AC) shall attack King on the South (Egypt), probably in the middle on 7-year periode. (Dan.11:40)
2. He shall enter many other countries on his way there.(Dan.11:40)
3. He shall enter the Holy Land (Israel), overthrow many countries, but Edom, Moab and chief of the children on Ammon are spared.(Dan11:41) During this time AC shall set his own time, law and order in Jerusalem, which shall be called Sodoma and Gomorra. He shall demand to be worshipped as god; his prophet erects AC:s stature in Templemount.
This will start the great tribulation for the Jews. AC hall erect his Royal Tent
in the Templemount. (Dan.11:45)
War is going on untill the End (Harmageddon).
4. AC hears rumors from North and East and go forth with great fury to destroy and utterly make away many.(Dan.11:44)
During AC absence Jews shall capter part on Jerusalem 110 days before Harmageddon.(Dan.8:13-14)
5. AC shall attack again Israel to utterly destroy Jews at Harmageddon.
6. There are 4 great earthquakes in Israel during 7-year periode. Sun will get darkened after each. Third quake is in the middle of 7-year-periode, after which some Jews shall flee to Moab along Mount of Olives, which has split into two parts. (Zec.14:4) Jews will be there 3.5 years.(Jes.16:4)
7. It is misleading to speak about “rapture of the Church”. Only the Body of Christ, the “real Church”, will be raptured. The earhtly Church structures will be functioning some time (Rev.17:16) and there will be Christians during AC:n time regardless of timing of the Rapture.
May 23rd, 2009 at 5:41 pm
Joel,
First of all I would like to say that the book God’s War on Terror by Mr. Shoebat and yourself was superb! A couple of questions for which I have not been able to get satisfactory answers regarding Gog being the Antichrist have to do first of all with the scripture in EZE 38 which states that Israel is dwelling safely when the invasion occurs. If Israel is being occupied for 42 months by the Antichrist and his armies how can you claim that they are dwelling safely?
Also, in EZE 39 Gog is buried but in Rev 19 the Antichrist is cast alive along with the False Prophet into the Lake of Fire. How do you reconcile this?
In reference to God referring to Gog as be spoken of by the Prophets many of the translations show God as if he is questioning Gog almost as if to possibly say “you are not who you think you are.” God questioned Job in a similar fashion to emphasize Job’s lack of understanding and inferiority. Also, by the time this prophecy is fulfilled both Ezekiel and John would have already made references to Gog in scripture.
Don’t get me wrong! I believe more pieces fit with Gog being the Antichrist at Armageddon than they do with other positions that place it as a different event. It would certainly shed more light on Gog being referred to as the King of the Locusts in Amos 7 (Septuagint Version) and Rev 9. I look forward to hearing your input as well as others regarding these questions! Thanks very much for such a great forum!
In Christ,
Mike C.
May 23rd, 2009 at 6:12 pm
Mitchell,
I believe you are making a fundamental assumption, which is characteristic of the post-tribulation system. And the consequence is that post-tribulationism requires an unnatural reading of the placement of the trumpet and bowls judgments squeezed into the last day of the 70th week of Daniel, or a version of that. Let me explain.
Because post-tribulationists become fixated on the time-frame of Antichrist’s rule of 3 ½ years, they ignore (or more accurately mold) what actually happens during that time according to the assumption that God does not intervene with wrath during that time.
You wrote,
“My view of this statement is not that God will reduce the time that Antichrist is given to rule.”
You have misunderstood the prewrath view. Prewrath does not state that his 3 ½ year rule is shortened. It is that particular persecution which Jesus refers to which is shortened. The Greek term for “shorten” (koloboo) means to “reduce.” The most authoritative Greek lexicon is BDAG, which states: “to reduce the duration of something shorten.” A time frame is not being shorted, instead a particular experience is.
I would encourage you to see beyond the notion that since Antichrist is ordained to rule for 3 ½ years, somehow God does not intervene and limit the severity of his rule. This will be nothing new: God ordained for foreign nations to rule over Israel, yet the severity of that rule was limited during the Persian period under Cyrus.
His rule is indeed limited. His rule is de jure during the Day of the Lord. But it is not completely taken away as evidence by the fact that the 2 witnesses are killed at the end of the 70th week, etc.
As far as your question about Revelation 3:3 and Matthew 24:36, I really would encourage you to read primary prewrath literature to understand our position. It is prewrathers who have argued voluminously that certain prophesied events must happen before the rapture. The Bible teaches expectancy, not imminency.
If you place the rapture at the end of the 70th week of Daniel, then the post-tribber has the problem with Jesus’ teaching that no one knows the day or the hours. The post-tribber can count exactly 31/2 days from the midpoint and know the exact day of his Return! The prewrath teaches that the rapture happens sometime during the second half of the 70th week, and thus compatible with Mt 23:26.
Revelation 3:3 clearly is speaking of spiritual awakeness.
Finally, you cannot squeeze all the trumpet and bowls judgments in a single day. The fifth trumpet is five months long in itself. And the other judgments will take time to unfold. The post-tribber has two choices: either place the Day of the Lord’s wrath concurrently with Antichrist’s Great Tribulation (which is exegetically impossible); or squeeze the Day of the Lord’s wrath into a single 24-hour day at the end of the 70th week, which contradicts the Biblical data regarding the length of the Day of the Lord’s wrath.
I encourage you to pick up some prewrath literature and we can have more beneficial discussions.
Thank you,
Alan Kurschner
May 23rd, 2009 at 6:19 pm
For primary reading on the prewrath see especially Marvin Rosenthal’s book, The Prewrath Rapture of the Church.
Also here are a couple of helpful articles (not to replace a full-length book though):
http://www.prewrathrapture.com/2005/11/the_prewrath_rapture_1.php
http://www.solagroup.org/products/pdf_files/parousia03.pdf
May 23rd, 2009 at 10:49 pm
Alan - “If you place the rapture at the end of the 70th week of Daniel, then the post-tribber has the problem with Jesus’ teaching that no one knows the day or the hours. The post-tribber can count exactly 31/2 days from the midpoint and know the exact day of his Return!… Prewrath does not state that his 3 ½ year rule is shortened. It is that particular persecution which Jesus refers to which is shortened.”"
Hi Alan, a couple of points if I may. You agree that Israel is delivered at the end of the 70th week at Armageddon, correct? First, in my view Daniel 12 gives us an important clue regarding when the resurrection will happen, and it is mentioned AFTER the people are delivered (Dan 12:1-2). The dead in Christ rise first — whether they be those who died in Messiah prior to the incarnation, or those who died in Messiah after the incarnation — and THEN those who are alive and remain will be raptured. Revelation 20:5 tells us that this resurrection is the first resurrection. If the first resurrection is at the end of the 70th week, then there is no resurrection prior to the last day of the 70th week. If the resurrection must take place before the rapture, then the rapture cannot happen until the end of the 70th week. Jesus’ own words prove this point when He tells us four times in the Gospel of John when this resurrection would take place:
John 6:39, “And this is the Father’s will who has sent me, that of all whom He has given me I should lose none, but should raise him up again at the LAST DAY.”
John 6:40, “And this is the will of him who sent me…that every one who sees the Son and believes on Him may have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.”
John 6:44, “No man can come to Me, except the Father who has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.”
John 6:54, “”Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.”
In order for the prewrath position to be correct, the resurrection would have to take place many months prior to the last day, and therefore many months prior to the first resurrection. That is hermeneutically and exegetically problematic.
Second, Christ said that “no one knows the day or hour”, but the prewrath position (like the pretrib position) adds meaning to this statement, in my opinion, by then asserting that it is therefore impossible to ever know. I do not believe that’s what Christ was saying at all. Jesus said, in the present tense, that we do not know, and since we do not know we need to watch for the signs we are given so that we can know (Matt 24:42). If we could never know the timing of His return, why would Jesus give us specific signs and tell us to keep watch? Why would Jesus imply that we could know in Revelation 3:3? “Spiritual awakeness” doesn’t answer why Jesus used the exact same language here as He did in Matthew 24. If we could never know, why would Paul then tell us that the Day of the Lord will not come upon us as a thief if we watch?
Alan - “…post-tribulationism requires an unnatural reading of the placement of the trumpet and bowls judgments squeezed into the last day of the 70th week of Daniel, or a version of that.”
I do not place the trumpet and bowl judgments into the last day of the 70th week at all. They begin to happen well before the last day. However, there is a significant point that the prewrath position misses in my opinion and is a fatal flaw. One of the major premisses in which the prewrath position is based upon is 1 Thess 5:9, which states “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ” as well as Romans 5:9 and 1 Thess 1:10. You and I both agree 100% that as believers we are not appointed to suffer the Divine wrath of God. However, the Greek word for “wrath” in each of these verses is “orge”. We are not to suffer the “orge” of God. The prewrath position seems to take almost every word translated as “wrath” in Revelation and then apply the English translation to mean that we will not be here to witness any of the “wrath” or from God mentioned in Revelation during the initial trumpet and bowl judgements, and it is an assumption that these first six trumpet and bowl judgements are a part of the Divine Wrath of God. That is a huge error. The word “wrath” is found 13 times in Revelation from the Greek word “thymos” and “orge”, but the “orge” of God that we are not appointed to and are saved from is only found six times. Each time “orge” is used it is in a post-trib context:
1 and 2. It is mentioned AFTER the cosmic signs and the revealing of Christ Jesus (Revelation 6:16-17). Jesus tells us in no uncertain terms that these cosmic signs happen immediately after the tribulation (Matt 24:29).
3. It is found AFTER the SEVENTH trumpet (Revelation 11:18).
4. t is used to describe the final torment of unbelievers in hell (Revelation 14:10).
5. It is found AFTER the SEVENTH bowl (Revelation 16:19).
6. it is used in connection with Christ’s second coming (Revelation 19:15).
The first six trumpet and bowl judgments are not the “orge” of God. They are not the Divine Wrath. They are best described as you have said — judgments — and these judgments are upon the Antichrist and those who follow him, not the believers / sealed of God. They are more limited in scope.
Moreoever, I do not view the seals, trumpets and bowls as consecutive. Instead, due to the Semitic styling of Revelation, they are much more concurrent. (See “The Seals, Trumpets & Bowls” here: http://worldview_3.tripod.com/prewrath.html).
Alan - “The post-tribber has two choices: either place the Day of the Lord’s wrath concurrently with Antichrist’s Great Tribulation (which is exegetically impossible); or squeeze the Day of the Lord’s wrath into a single 24-hour day at the end of the 70th week, which contradicts the Biblical data regarding the length of the Day of the Lord’s wrath.”
I agree that the first option is exegetically impossible. As for your second option, the assumption that the first six trumpet and bowl judgments are a part of the Divine Wrath (orge) of God is very problematic in my view per what I have shown above.
As for it being a 24-hour period, there are reasons why the Day of the Lord can indeed be one literal day, and cannot begin as early as the prewrath view teaches. For your consideration:
* Zechariah 14:7 indicates that the Day of the Lord is a 24 hour day. The Hebrew text says “one day” — “But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, [that] at evening time it shall be light.” (Also see Isaiah 10:17).
* In Isaiah 13:9, Joel 2:1 and Zech 14:1 we read in each of these verses that “the Day of the Lord COMETH”, and in each verse the text immediately begins to describe the battle of Armageddon. The word “cometh” is the Hebrew word “bow” and it means to come or arrive, and it implies the beginning of the Day of the Lord. In each case the arrival of the Day of the Lord bring about the battle of Armageddon. This is problematic for the prewrath view, which teaches that the Day of the Lord begins many months prior to the battle of Armageddon. I am confident that the Lord does not need more than one day to defeat these armies.
* Joel 3:9-17 describes the gathering of the armies of the nations around Jerusalem for the battle of Armageddon, the cosmic signs, and the coming of the Lord. AFTER the armies are gathered, but BEFORE the cosmic signs, Joel wrote that the Day of the Lord is “near.” The Hebrew word means “at hand,” “imminent,” or “next in sequence”. The Day of the Lord must begin AFTER the armies of the nations are gathered for the battle, which occurs at the end of the tribulation, according to Rev. 16:13-16.
One thing we both see eye-to-eye on though brother Alan, we both know that there is no pre-trib rapture.
May 24th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
Mike C,
Hi there.
Okay, first I want to try to get you to recognize the approach that you are taking. No insult against you at all, but this approach (trying to find irreconcilable differences between Ez 38,39 and Rev 16,19) is deeply rooted in the popular discussion of this issue because of these lists having been passed around the Internet so much. When prophecy teachers make these long lists of alleged differences in an effort to “prove” that “the Battle of Gog and Magog” and “the Battle of Armageddon”, are not the same, they utilize a strict reasoning that they would never apply to other portions of the Bible. Let me give a few examples:
“Proof” that the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New are two different Gods:
God dwells in light:
“[God] who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light whom no one has seen or can see.” [1 Tim 6:16]
God dwells in darkness:
“Then spake Solomon. The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness” [1 Kings 8:12]
“Clouds and darkness are round about him.” [Ps 97:2]
How about this one:
“Proof” that these are two completely different occasions:
[Luke 24:4] There were two angels seen by the women at the sepulchre, and they were standing up.
[Matt 28:2,5] There was but one angel seen, and he was sitting down.
Now, as Bible believing Bereans, we know that the above seeming contradictions / “proofs” are quite easily resolved. I do not need to explain that here.
Likewise, with regard to Gog / Battle of Gog Magog (Ezekiel 38,39) and Antichrist / Armageddon (Revelation 16, 19) there are some seeming variances in these two accounts, but none that are so drastic so as to merit seeing these as distinct events. Unless one is pre-determined to do so.
So, what I am trying to say is that when people point out some of these (IMO) weak variances, I must ask why they are so determined to prove this when there is already incontrovertible evidence that this is the final battle between Christ and Antichrist. As listed above, (1) Christ is present, (Parousia), (2) Israel and the nations come to faith, (3) Gods name will no longer be blasphemed (4) etc etc.
That said, some still require an explanation of every seeming variance so I am happy to do so.
Okay, lets look at the seeming contradictions / difficulties that you suggested:
(1) Israel is dwelling safely when the invasion occurs. If Israel is being occupied for 42 months by the Antichrist and his armies how can you claim that they are dwelling safely?
The Gog Magog Battle is a general prophecy about the entire final 42 month period. It is not strictly only focusing on the final period of the 42 months as is Rev 16, 19 (Armageddon). The Armageddon passages are more zoomed in on only that final battle at the conclusion of the 42 months. So before the 42 months begin, Israel is dwelling securely precisely as Ezekiel records. But this security is interrupted by the invasion and abomination etc. Remember that of the AC, the Bible says that he specifically invades when people feel secure:
When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them. Daniel 11:24
And
“Through (false) peace he (Antichrist) will destroy many.” Daniel 8:25
Also, when some demand that the Battle of Gog Magog must be only referring to the final period of the 42 months, they demand something for the prophecy that is never demanded elsewhere. Again, an example:
Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.
In this little two verse passage, it begins with the child being born and ends with him ruling the nations. Where is the mention of the two thousand year gap that we know is there? No where on the surface. This two verse passage is in essence one sweeping overview of the entire coming of Christ - first and second in one fluid prophecy. Likewise Gog Magog is a general overview of the final 42 months. To demand that it could not be so would be without support. Make sense?
(2) In EZE 39 Gog is buried but in Rev 19 the Antichrist is cast alive along with the False Prophet into the Lake of Fire. How do you reconcile this?
First, you would have to explain what being thrown alive in hell means exactly. Is the soul alive? Is the body alive? How can a body be thrown alive into a place that only souls go? If I am to be honest, I have no idea what this passage even means. However, I do know that if we look at the full counsel of Scripture on this issue (as opposed to making the error of comparing Gog only to the AC as he is portrayed in the Battle of Armageddon) then we will see that the AC is clearly killed - just like Gog is also killed. Paul tells us in Thessalonians that the AC will be slain by the brightness of the coming of Christ, correct? How do we reconcile this with the notion that he is “thrown alive into hell”? Could it be like Korah in the OT? Will the earth open up and swallow him? I do not know. Where else does the Scriptures describe the death of the AC? Daniel tells us that the “beast / horn” will be destroyed.
And then the lawless one (the Antichrist) will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8
Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. Daniel 7:11
Clearly, the Antichrist and his Empire will be physically destroyed by Jesus. What does it mean that he will also be thrown alive into hell? I’m not sure, but there is no contradictions between what we know about the death of the AC and what we see about the death of Gog.
(3) In reference to God referring to Gog as be spoken of by the Prophets many of the translations show God as if he is questioning Gog almost as if to possibly say “you are not who you think you are.”
I am not aware of which translations say it this way. They all seem to indicate a rhetorical question that is clearly inferring that Gog is indeed the one that all the prophets spoke of. That seems to be the most natural reading. And this is also why the Jews interpret this passage as they do.
Sorry so sloppy. Let me know if this helped.
Bless ya, Joel
May 24th, 2009 at 8:38 pm
Joel, good post. It even answers the question I asked earlier.
May 24th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
Joel,
Thank you so very much for taking the time to answer a neophyte like myself in such detail. Your comments have been most helpful and have pretty much solidified my support for your position of Gog and the Antichrist being one in the same.
The post from Gavriel was also most helpful to me in reconciling the occupation of Jerusalem for 42 months and the invasion from Gog. God mentions in Ezekiel that he will “turn him (Gog) around” or “bring him back” which tells me he was previously already their but leaves to fight against the King of the North.
Thank you again Joel for your ministry! It has been an immense blessing to me and my study of Eschatology! Take care.
In Christ,
Mike C.
May 24th, 2009 at 10:26 pm
I should mention, the points above regarding reasons why the Day of the Lord could indeed be one literal day are from Tim Warner. I tried searching for an article he had on one of his previous websites from a few years back but was unable to locate it. If anyone has a link please share.
May 25th, 2009 at 5:27 am
Thanks Michael. Again, sorry so sloppy. I just went back and slightly edited it.
Mitchell,
I didn’t see that you had a question. You are usually more on top of this than I am. So from your perspective, would there be any problems with the Day of the Lord being the period from the day that He returns extended out for a few weeks as He pours out His wrath etc.?
May 25th, 2009 at 10:29 am
Hi Joel, I see no real issue with it being extended out a few weeks from the end of the 70th week, just as I see no real issue with it being as short as one literal day. I do see problems however with it beginning many months prior to the end of the 70th week.
My current view is that there are 30 days from the time the daily sacrifice is taken away and the Abomination of Desolation is set up, followed by 1260 days were saints are persecuted for a total of 1290 days (Dan 12:11) and the end of the 70th week. There are also an additional 45 days beyond the 1290 for a total of 1335 (Dan 12:12), so if the resurrection/rapture happens after the 30+1260 days it is possible that the Day of the Lord could be for the duration of the remaining 45 days.
May 25th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Mitchell,
I would like to respond to your claims about the Day of the Lord being a single day.
You made the following assertion about the Hebrew Bible:
“Zechariah 14:7 indicates that the Day of the Lord is a 24 hour day. The Hebrew text says “one day” — “But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, [that] at evening time it shall be light. (Also see Isaiah 10:17).”
I know Hebrew, and I read it everyday and I can tell you that first, the Hebrew text does not contain English words such as “one day.” Second, the Hebrew term in that verse is ’eḥāḏ. But are you aware that the term has a semantic range of twenty meanings!? (Tim Warner is not going to tell you that.) And the meaning of a 24-hour single day is only one of those meanings. And you have arbitrarily chosen one of those meanings to fit the post-trib system.
Furthermore, the most authoritative Hebrew lexicon (and all Hebrew scholars agree with that assertion) is _The Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament_ by Ludwig Koehler and Walter Baumgartner. The lexicon lists Zechariah 14:7 and its use of this term under the meaning of “never-ending day.” So in reality, they do not see this term in that context as a single 24-hour day, but actually just the opposite: it is never-ending. Some translations render it “unique day” which is possible since it will be a time as never experienced.
You also said, “Also see Isaiah 10:17.” First, that is not even talking about the Day of the Lord. And second it is a text that is clearly speaking of Assyria’s judgment. So that verse is not even remotely relevant as an argument.
Next you made some amazing leaps of error in this statement:
* In Isaiah 13:9, Joel 2:1 and Zech 14:1 we read in each of these verses that “the Day of the Lord COMETH”, and in each verse the text immediately begins to describe the battle of Armageddon. The word “cometh” is the Hebrew word “bow” and it means to come or arrive, and it implies the beginning of the Day of the Lord. In each case the arrival of the Day of the Lord bring about the battle of Armageddon. This is problematic for the prewrath view, which teaches that the Day of the Lord begins many months prior to the battle of Armageddon. I am confident that the Lord does not need more than one day to defeat these armies.”
First, you are making the claim that the first event of the Day of the Lord is the Battle of Armageddon. This is exegetically false. The Battle of Armageddon is actually the _last_ expression of the Day of the Lord as Revelation specifically details. The sixth seal announces the Day of the Lord; then at the opening of the 7th seal, you have the unfolding of the trumpet judgments followed by the quick bowl judgments culminating then in the Battle of Armageddon.
You mentioned Isaiah13:9 as evidence that the Day of the Lord begins with the Battle of Armageddon. The Isaiah text says nothing of the sort! You did not provide any contextual argumentation; you only cited the reference hoping that it would support your assertion.
You did the same thing with Joel 2:1. You only cited the reference. There is absolutely nothing in the passage that would even hint at the idea that Armageddon occurs on the day that the Day of the Lord begins.
Then you cited Zech 14:1, which I agree refers to the Battle. But the fact that it says that the Battle is going to be wrath during the Day of the Lord (no one disagrees with that) does not support your assertion that the Day of the Lord is going to be a single 24-hour day with Armageddon.
Finally you cited Joel 3:9-17 in which you make the assumption that if the prophet warns of God’s judgment of the Day of the Lord at the Battle of Armageddon, then that somehow requires that God has not been pouring out wrath upon the ungodly before that. The texts qualifies the particular expression of the Day of the Lord’s wrath: it says that it is “in the valley of decision.” This is where the Day of the Lord’s wrath culminates. But certainly before this time his wrath has been pouring out universally in the trumpet and bowl judgments. Even Revelation 15:1 says that the bowls will be the “last” of the wrath of God meaning of course that the trumpets that preceded were God’s wrath as well. But the finale of the wrath of God will be geographically narrow in the valley during the Battle of Armageddon.
In addition, Joel 3:15 mentions cosmic disturbances. Prewrath has never said that the only cosmic disturbances will happen only once. Indeed, they will punctuate the judgments throughout Revelation. But there will be a specific cluster of cosmic disturbances accompanied by earthquakes that will signal that the Day of the Lord will begin.
I find it very telling that you seem to be interpreting the events in the book of Revelation in light of Old Testament texts, rather than interpreting the Old Testament texts in light of the specific texts in Revelation. It is more sensible to use progressive revelation particularly that of the New Testament to illuminate Scripture’s teaching. And those that ignore this fundamental interpretive principle are indicative of a particular Tradition.
Prewrathers have certain affinities with postrib, indeed. But I would encourage traditional post-tribbers to be more open to Pre-wrath considerations and exegesis.
I noticed that you said that you are paraphrasing or using some of Tim Warner’s material. He has proved himself (in other doctrines as well) to be very irresponsible with respect to Greek syntax and exegesis. I have it documented if you care to read some of it. He seems to be the proverbial individual who has just enough knowledge of Greek to be dangerous. And as far as I am aware, does not read Hebrew. Not that someone must be proficient in both Hebrew and Greek to be responsible in Biblical interpretation, but when someone makes important lexical and grammatical claims, they need to know what they are talking about. And Warner has failed in that endeavor.
It is Memorial Day and, pun intended, will only last a single day, so I want to enjoy the rest of it before it is over. But in the next couple of days I will respond to your other claims about when the resurrection must take place, and a Greek lexical fallacy that I observed that you made, and other assertions that you made in your last comment to me.
I do though appreciate the interaction.
Alan
www.prewrathrapture.com
May 25th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
Famous Rapture Watchers - Addendum
by Dave MacPherson
(The statements in my “Famous Rapture Watchers” web article appeared in my 1983 book “The Great Rapture Hoax” and quoted only past leaders. Here are the other leaders who were quoted in that original printing.)
Oswald J. Smith: “…I am absolutely convinced that there will be no rapture before the Tribulation, but that the Church will undoubtedly be called upon to face the Antichrist…” (Tribulation or Rapture - Which?, p. 2).
Paul B. Smith: “You are perfectly free to quote me as believing rather emphatically in the post-tribulation teaching of the Bible” (letter dated June 9, 1976).
S. I. McMillen: “…Christians will suffer in the Great Tribulation” (Discern These Times, p. 55).
Norman F. Douty: “…all of the evidence of history runs one way - in favor of Post-tribulationism” (Has Christ’s Return Two Stages?, p. 113).
Leonard Ravenhill: “There is a cowardly Christianity which…still comforts its fainting heart with the hope that there will be a rapture - perhaps today - to catch us away from coming tribulation” (Sodom Had No Bible, p. 94).
William Hendriksen: “…the one and only second coming of Christ to judgment” (Israel in Prophecy, p. 29).
Loraine Boettner: “Hence we conclude that nowhere in Scripture does it teach a secret or pre-tribulation Rapture” (The Millennium, p. 168).
J. Sidlow Baxter: “…believers of the last days (there is only one small part of the total Church on earth at any given moment) will be on earth during the so-called ‘Great Tribulation’ ” (Explore the Book, Vol. 6, p. 345).
Merrill C. Tenney: “There is no convincing reason why the seer’s being ‘in the Spirit’ and being called into heaven [Revelation 4:1-2] typifies the rapture of the church…” (Interpreting Revelation, p. 141).
James R. Graham: “…there is not a line of the N.T. that declares a pre-tribulation rapture, so its advocates are compelled to read it into certain indeterminate texts…” (Watchman, What of the Night?, p. 79).
Ralph Earle: “The teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture seems first to have been emphasized widely about 100 years ago by John Darby of the Plymouth Brethren” (Behold, I Come, p. 74).
Clarence B. Bass: “…I most strongly believe dispensationalism to be a departure from the historic faith…” (Backgrounds to Dispensationalism, p. 155).
William C. Thomas: “The return of Jesus Christ, described by parousia, revelation, and epiphany, is one single, glorious, triumphant event for which we all wait with great eagerness!” (The Blessed Hope in the Thessalonian Epistles of Paul, p. 42).
Harold J. Ockenga: “No exegetical justification exists for the arbitrary separation of the ‘coming of Christ’ and the ‘day of the Lord.’ It is one ‘day of the Lord Jesus Christ’ ” (Christian Life, February, 1955).
Duane Edward Spencer: “Paul makes it very clear that the Church will pass through the Great Tribulation” (”Rapture-Tribulation” cassette).
J. C. Maris: “Nowhere the Bible teaches that the Church of Jesus Christ is heading for world dominion. On the contrary - there will be no place for her, save in ‘the wilderness,’ where God will take care of her (Rev. 12:13-17)” (I.C.C.C. leaflet “The Danger of the Ecumenical Movement,” p. 2).
F. F. Bruce: “To meet the Lord [I Thessalonians 4:17]…on the final stage of…[Christ’s] journey…to the earth…” (New Bible Commentary: Revised, p. 1159).
G. Christian Weiss: “Some people say that this [’gospel of the kingdom’ in Matthew 24:14] is not the gospel of grace but is a special aspect of the gospel to be preached some time in the future. But there is nothing in the context to indicate this” (”Back to the Bible” broadcast, February 9, 1976).
Pat Brooks: “Soon we, in the Body of Christ, will be confronted by millions of people disillusioned by such false teaching [Pre-Tribism]” (Hear, O Israel, p. 186).
Herman Hoeksema: “…the time of Antichrist, when days so terrible are still to arrive for the church…” (Behold, He Cometh!, p. 131).
Ray Summers: “Because they [Philadelphia] have been faithful, he promises his sustaining grace in the tribulation…” (Worthy Is the Lamb, p. 123).
George E. Ladd: “[Pretribulationism] may be guilty of the positive danger of leaving the Church unprepared for tribulation when Antichrist appears…” (The Blessed Hope, p. 164).
Peter Beyerhaus: “The Christian Church on earth [will face] the final, almost superhuman test of being confronted with the apocalyptical temptation by Antichrist” (Christianity Today, April 13, 1973).
Leon Morris: “The early Christians…looked for the Christ to come as Judge” (Apocalyptic, p. 84).
Dale Moody: “There is not a passage in the New Testament to support Scofield. The call to John to ‘come up hither’ has reference to mystical ecstasy, not to a pretribulation rapture” (Spirit of the Living God, p. 203).
John R. W. Stott: “He would not spare them from the suffering [Revelation 3:10]; but He would uphold them in it” (What Christ Thinks of the Church, p. 104).
G. R. Beasley-Murray: “…the woman, i.e., the Church…flees for refuge into the wilderness [Revelation 12:14]…” (The New Bible Commentary, p. 1184).
Bernard L. Ramm: “…as the Church moves to meet her Lord at the parousia world history is also moving to meet its Judge at the same parousia” (Leo Eddleman’s Last Things, p. 41).
J. Barton Payne: “…the twentieth century has indeed witnessed a progressively rising revolt against pre-tribulationism” (The Imminent Appearing of Christ, p. 38).
Robert H. Gundry: “Divine wrath does not blanket the entire seventieth week…but concentrates at the close” (The Church and the Tribulation, p. 63).
C. S. Lovett: “Frankly I favor a post-trib rapture…I no longer teach Christians that they will NOT have to go through the tribulation” (PC, January, 1974).
Walter R. Martin: “Walter Martin finally said…’Yes, I’m a post-trib’ ” (Lovett’s PC, December, 1976).
Jay Adams: “Today’s trend is…from pre- to posttribulationism” (The Time Is at Hand, p. 2).
Jim McKeever: “Nowhere do the Scriptures say that the Rapture will precede the Tribulation” (Christians Will Go Through the Tribulation, p. 55).
Arthur Katz: “I think it fair to tell you that I do not subscribe to the happy and convenient theology which says that God’s people are going to be raptured and lifted up when a time of tribulation and trial comes” (Reality, p.
.
Billy Graham: “Perhaps the Holy Spirit is getting His Church ready for a trial and tribulation such as the world has never known” (Sam Shoemaker’s Under New Management, p. 72).
W. J. Grier: “The Scofield Bible makes a rather desperate effort…it tries to get in the ‘rapture’ of the saints before the appearing of Antichrist” (The Momentous Event, p. 58).
Pat Robertson: “Jesus Christ is going to come back to earth again to deliver Israel and at the same time to rapture His Church; it’s going to be one moment, but it’s going to be a glorious time” (”700 Club” telecast, May 14, 1975).
Ben Kinchlow: “Any wrath [during the Tribulation] that comes upon us - any difficulty - will not be induced by God, but it’ll be like the people are saying, ‘The cause of our problems are those Christians in our midst; we need to get rid of them’ ” (”700 Club” telecast, August 28, 1979).
Daniel P. Fuller: “It is thus concluded that Dispensationalism fails to pass the test of an adequate system of Biblical Interpretation” (The Hermeneutics of Dispensationalism, p. 369).
Corrie ten Boom: “The Bible prophesies that the time will come when we cannot buy or sell, unless we bear the sign of the Antichrist…” (Tramp for the Lord, p. 187).
[just saw the above quotes on the web. interesting? Sue]
May 25th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Alan - “I know Hebrew, and I read it everyday and I can tell you that first, the Hebrew text does not contain English words such as “one day.”
Hi Alan, the point was that it is possible that the Hebrew “echad yowm” could be referring to “one day”, like it does in Isaiah 10:17. I am not dogmatic on that point, only presenting the possibility.
Alan - “First, you are making the claim that the first event of the Day of the Lord is the Battle of Armageddon. This is exegetically false. The Battle of Armageddon is actually the _last_ expression of the Day of the Lord as Revelation specifically details… You mentioned Isaiah13:9 as evidence that the Day of the Lord begins with the Battle of Armageddon. The Isaiah text says nothing of the sort! You did not provide any contextual argumentation”
I disagree that the Battle of Armageddon is the last expression of the Day of the Lord. Notice Isaiah 13:4, which reads “… a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.” Verse 9 then says that “the day of the LORD cometh”, so after the armies have already been gathered the Day of the Lord is yet to take place. The prewrath position contradicts this by teaching that the Day of the Lord begins many months prior to Armageddon.
Alan - “The sixth seal announces the Day of the Lord; then at the opening of the 7th seal, you have the unfolding of the trumpet judgments followed by the quick bowl judgments culminating then in the Battle of Armageddon.”
By the time the sixth seal is opened most of the trumpet and bowl judgments have already taken place (see link I provided above in my previous post). I do not view them as consecutive, but rather much more concurrent. The 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl all end together in my view. Notice the similarities of each (taken from http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/post/link3.htm#Anchor4):
6th & 7th Seal:
1. A great earthquake
2. Voices, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake
3. Angel cried with a loud voice
4. Every mountain and island taken out of their way
5. —
6. —
7. Day of his wrath is come
8. Silence in heaven
9. Great multitude in heaven
10. —
6th & 7th Trumpet:
1. A great earthquake
2. Lightnings, voices, thunderings and an earthquake
3. Great voices in heaven
4. —
5. Great hail
6. Temple opened; voices heard
7. Thy wrath is come
8. Mystery of God is finished
9. Time of the dead
10. Kingdom given to Christ
7th Bowl:
1. A great earthquake
2. Voices, thunders, lightnings and a great earthquake
3. Great voice from heaven
4. Every island fled away and the mountains were not found
5. Great hail
6. Great voice out of the temple
7. Fierceness of his wrath
8. “It is done”
9. First resurrection (ch. 20)
10. Christ reigns 1,000 yrs (ch. 20)
The writer continues, “Although some of these are debatable there seems to me to be overwhelming evidence here linking these events. The most logical understanding is that these are describing the same events with some giving more details and some leaving out details. This is more plausible than the idea that all these things take place multiple times…. Jesus plainly states that the great cosmic signs would take place ‘after the tribulation.’ John has them occurring at the sixth seal. We must therefore conclude that at least the sixth seal is after the Tribulation. Furthermore, the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19) clearly describes the end and is said to finish the mystery of God (10:7) as was already stated. Also, as John is approaching the seventh trumpet he is told that he ‘must prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tongues and kings’ (10:11). This leads me to believe that the sixth and seventh trumpets bring us to the end, and then John starts back over from a different perspective listing different events with the bowls. Finally, it seems likely that this seventh trumpet parallels Paul’s last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 and Jesus’ trumpet in Matthew 24:31.”
Look at what is written after the 6th bowl is poured just before the battle of Armageddon: Rev 16:15 reads, “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” If the rapture has already happened, then who is this referring to?
Alan - “You did the same thing with Joel 2:1. You only cited the reference. There is absolutely nothing in the passage that would even hint at the idea that Armageddon occurs on the day that the Day of the Lord begins.”
Look at Joel 2:10, “The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.” Joel 3:11,14-16 says, “Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD… Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD [is] near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD [will be] the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.” These verses describes the gathering of the armies of the nations around Jerusalem for the battle of Armageddon, the cosmic signs, and the coming of the Lord. AFTER the armies are gathered, but BEFORE the cosmic signs, Joel wrote that the Day of the Lord is “near.”
Alan - “But certainly before this time his wrath has been pouring out universally in the trumpet and bowl judgments. Even Revelation 15:1 says that the bowls will be the “last” of the wrath of God meaning of course that the trumpets that preceded were God’s wrath as well.”
Where do you find that the “orge” of God that we are not appointed to is a part of the first six trumpet and bowl judgments? Revelation 15:1 says, “And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.” The word for “wrath” in Rev 15:1 is the Greek word “thymos” (G2372), and not “orge” (G3709). As someone who is versed in Greek, how to you reconcile this? Is there a verse in the Bible that says we will not be present to witness the “thymos” of God? Even Rev 16:1 uses the word “thymos”, and the next verses tells us precisely who is the subject to the “thymos” by saying that it is “upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and [upon] them which worshipped his image.” In fact, those upon whom these bowls are being poured refuse to repent (16:9). The fifth bowl is “upon the seat of the beast” (16:10), and again they refuse to repent (16:11). Again, look at 16:15 which reads “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” This verse is not referring to those who refuse to repent, I believe it is referring to those who are waiting to soon be raptured.
Alan - “In addition, Joel 3:15 mentions cosmic disturbances. Prewrath has never said that the only cosmic disturbances will happen only once. Indeed, they will punctuate the judgments throughout Revelation. But there will be a specific cluster of cosmic disturbances accompanied by earthquakes that will signal that the Day of the Lord will begin.”
I view the cosmic disturbances as only happening once (immediately after the tribulation per Jesus in Matthew 24:29), just as there is only one “first resurrection” and one “day of the Lord” and one “second coming”.
Alan - “I noticed that you said that you are paraphrasing or using some of Tim Warner’s material. He has proved himself (in other doctrines as well) to be very irresponsible with respect to Greek syntax and exegesis. I have it documented if you care to read some of it.”
Sure, I am open to studying differences of opinion. Thanks Alan.
Best regards,
Mitchell
May 25th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
Alan - “Prewrath does not state that his 3 ½ year rule is shortened. It is that particular persecution which Jesus refers to which is shortened. The Greek term for “shorten” (koloboo) means to “reduce.” … I would encourage you to see beyond the notion that since Antichrist is ordained to rule for 3 ½ years, somehow God does not intervene and limit the severity of his rule.”
I meant to expound upon my earlier response in a previous post. My point was that Daniel 7:25 is very specific in stating that the saints “shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.” This is a full 3.5 years (or 1260 days, or 42 months) that the saints are persecuted. I understand the point you are defending, but in my view the prewrath position contradicts Daniel 7:25 with the contention that the length of time in which saints are persecuted is actually “cut short” and is not the “time, times and the dividing of time” that Daniel tells us. It is my belief that such a teaching is in err, and that the time “cut short” refers to the fact that Antichrist is not permitted to exercise his authority beyond the 1260 days. In other words, if Antichrist’s rule were to be permitted to continue beyond the 1260 days (without Divine intervention) then no flesh would be saved, but for the sake of the elect (the saints) Antichrist’s reign is cut short to only 1260 days with the glorious return of Christ Jesus.
May 26th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Alan and Mitchell …
Great discussion. I am probably 65% prewrath and 35% posttrib.
One thing I believe we can all agree on is this: pretrib does not have scriptural support.
I state that for this reason alone … while we can debate which view has the most scriptural support, we should also point out those views which have none.
Thanks,
Jeff
May 26th, 2009 at 10:11 pm
jgilberAZ,
Glad that you are enjoying the interaction. I agree. At the end of the day, I have good affinities with post-tribbers since we agree on the central issue that God will call the last generation of the Church to endure the awful persecution of Antichrist.
I have some commitments at this time, but at the end of the week I will provide more cogent responses to the remaining assertions that Mitchell has made. I would have preferred to interact with him if he was conversant with Prewrath literature since I believe it would be more beneficial of a discussion. Nevertheless, it is my aim to challenge some key post-trib tenets that I believe arise out of unnatural readings of the text required by the false premise of the rapture/resurrection at the end of the 70th week.
Thanks,
Alan
June 1st, 2009 at 5:34 pm
Mitchell,
Below are the following reasons why a concurrent reading of the seals, trumpets, and bowls are not possible. Simply listing some similar motifs among some of the elements, instead of noticing major differences is facile.
As far as some other issues that you listed such as the placement of the last resurrection, etc. I point you to reading prewrath literature. I have read thousands of pages of post-trib primary literature, the least you could do is read a couple of primary prewrath books on it to understand what you are attempting to critique. It would be more beneficial. This is my final post.
My prewrath book will be out by the end of the year and in the appendix it will have a section on notes on chronology of Revelation.
The weakness to the recapitulation or concurrent theory is as follows:
(1) The metaphor of a “scroll being opened” is done injustice to the imagery by the concurrent theory. The opening of the scroll is for the purpose to initiate judgment on the world and thus God to reclaim his kingdom. Hence, the reason the trumpets and bowls are contents of the scroll. Once the seventh seal is broken the wrath of God is formally inaugurated (8:1-4). The seals are conditions that allow something to happen. When the scroll is opened the wrath of God begins. Hence, the metaphor of trumpets which “announce.” The metaphor of bowls is a swift judgment. The Greek word there indicates a very shallow dish, which connotes that the wrath-contents are swiftly poured out. (e.g. During the fifth bowl, the earth-dwellers are still feeling the effect of the first bowl).
(2) The first six seals cannot be considered God’s wrath for the following reasons:
First, the Cosmic Disturbances of the sixth seal announce God’s wrath upon the ungodly, “The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.” (Joel 2:31)
Second, both the responses from the martyrs in the fifth seal and the ungodly in the sixth seal reveal that God’s wrath is soon to come–they have not viewed it already in the past. The fifth seal martyrs are asking when God will pour out his wrath; and the ungodly in the sixth seal are running to the caves and crying out about the impending wrath.
Third, the fact that there are two groups of people, one group being sealed and the other delivered, just before the seventh seal suggests strongly that they are being sealed and delivered from something looming that will come upon the whole world.
Fourth, the nature of the events in the first four seals are “natural” (but intense) catastrophes (wars, famines, etc.) carried out by “horsemen.” This is in contrast to when the seventh seal (supernatural contents) is opened up and the unmistakable wrath of God is mediated directly by angels via the trumpet and bowl judgments against the ungodly. (By the way, a fourth of mankind is not killed in the fourth seal; there is only, “power over a fourth of the earth.”)
Fifth, the first five seals in Revelation chapter six parallel Jesus’ teaching about this being the “beginning of birth pangs” in Matthew 24:5-8.
Sixth, obviously the fifth seal is not God’s wrath because it specifically speaks of the martyrdom of believers. And since believers are promised protection from the Day of the Lord’s wrath, to argue that the fifth seal is God’s wrath is contradictory.
Seventh, when the seventh seal is opened, immediately it says that there was silence in heaven for about a half an hour. The most plausible explanation for this silence is for all the members of the heavenly court to observe the grave and profound significance of the event that is to follow: The Eschatological Day of the Lord’s wrath. Immediately after this silence it says,
“Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake.”
This unprecedented dreadful opening act of God’s wrath is then followed by how the Old Testament prophets characterized the Day of the Lord: fire and destruction. And this is realized in the trumpet and bowl judgments.
(3) The placement of the three woes establishes a very important fact: the first six seals do not correspond equally to the first six trumpets nor to the first six bowls. The fact that the completion of woes one and two follows trumpets five and six, respectively, clearly and unmistakably demands a chronological sequence to the seals, trumpets, and bowls. The seventh seal inaugurates the seven trumpets. The seventh trumpet inaugurates the seven bowls. The intensity of God’s wrath demonstrated in the fifth, sixth and seventh trumpets is unparalleled in the first six seals and the first four trumpets. Therefore, the clear dissimilarity between the seals, trumpets, and bowls demonstrates that they are not coincidental and in fact proves them to be chronological in sequence.
(4) Recapitulation is incongruent with the nature of the bowl judgments which are seen as much more intense than the trumpet judgments. This is consistent in that they are called God’s “final completed wrath,” a finale if you will.
(5) I’d like to also highlight the following reason why the bowls follow the trumpet judgments. It is imperative that one understands the symbolic connection between the opening of the heavenly temple in heaven in 11:19 and 15:5. It will not do for someone to simply say, “What we have here is the temple of heaven opened and viewed at two different times, two different events.” The meaning of the temple in heaven being opened
is highly significant to the chronology of Revelation. The symbolism is huge.
The ark was the central feature on the Day of Atonement as you know. We understand that it was prophesied that at the end of the 70th week of Daniel Israel will be atoned for their sins and have salvation. And it is perfectl fitting that a passage that brings us to the end of the 70th week via the two witnesses, we would find the heavenly copy of the ark of the covenant being unveiled. And so it is best to see 15:5 picking up from 11:19; hence the interlude of chs. 12-14.
Also, there was no judgment element in the seventh seal in itself–it contained the seven trumpets. Similarly, the seventh trumpet does not have a judgment element in itself. But it would be consistent if it contained the bowls, especially in light of the temple-in-heaven-opened passages.
I would suggest that post-tribbers who have the a priori of the the wrath of God being expressed on a single day after the close of the 70th week of Daniel require them to have the unnatural reading of the parallel structure
Alan
June 1st, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Alan, If you send out any pre-release copies for review, drop me an e-mail, I’d be very interested. Bless ya, Joel
June 1st, 2009 at 7:49 pm
Joel,
I will make a note of that.
My interaction with post-trib distinctives at different points in the book are more complete and edited than I have provided here, especially when engaged in the issue of the sequential versus concurrent (e.g. Indeed, the second trumpet and second bowl both contain the motif of the water turning to blood and death of creatures in the sea. But on closer examination, it is unintelligible to see this as recapitualtion or concurrent since in the second trumpet only one-third of the creatures perish, but the second bowl has them ALL perish. The increase intensity of God’s wrath in the bowls make sense of this, not to mention they are considered God’s final complete wrath. Other examples could be provided, but my time is spent.)
I do though believe that recapitulation plays a supporting role in some parts such as the interlude chs 12-14 for example (which goes back to give more detailed information on the Antichrist’s Great Tribulation). But the thrust of the seals, trumpets, and bowls require us to view them sequential.
Thank you,
Alan
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:13 am
Hi Alan, thank you for your explanation, you write very well. Before I offer my response, however, I would like to understand your reasoning regarding the “orge” of God that we are not appointed to (1 Thess 1:10, 1 Thess 5:9, Rom 5:9) and how you come to the conclusion that the “orge” of God is somehow present during the trumpet and bowl judgments, when John puts the “orge” of God after the seventh trumpet and seventh bowl.
June 2nd, 2009 at 9:25 am
Mitchell,
That is the word-concept fallacy, (aka lexical-theology). See D.A. Carson book _Exegetical Fallacies_ and Moises Silva’s book _Biblical Words and Their Meaning: An Introduction to Lexical Semantics._ You never want to find yourself saying, “This word is not found in this text so this concept is not there.” That is like when pretribs say, “the word ‘church’ is not found in Revelation 4-21, therefore, the church is not present during this time.” I suppose the church is not raptured either since the word “church” is not found in any rapture passage.
There are myriads of words that describe God’s wrath so to limit it to orge is simply exegetically facile. But if you demand that the word must be used “before the trumpet and bowls,” here is a very important use.
Orge is used in Revelation 6:16 “hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb” This is fitting since the 6th seal announces God’s wrath (See also Joel 2:29-31).
And let’s look at context to name a few:
(1) In the fifth seal the martyrs are crying out for God’s judgment of vindication. Their prayers are answered in the trumpet judgments (Revelation 8:1-5).
(2) The fact that the world is completely burned up and living creatures are wiped out is self-evident that this is God’s wrath. It is wrong to demand of John to append each judgment with “by the way readers this particular trumpet judgment was orge” as if his readers could not figure out the obvious.
(3) Also, the word-concept fallacy often ignores synonyms. A very intense word to describe God’s indignation against the ungodly is thymos: Rev 14:8, 10, 19; 15:1, 7; 16:1
It is really strained to not only to have the seals, trumpets, and bowls, as concurrent but to say that the trumpet and bowls to not express wrath until the last occurrence. But this is the case if one fails to see that God’s wrath is a not a literal 24-hour day.
I am not just saying this, but I have had testimonies from ex-postribers who was relieved to get away from that straining of scripture and embrace the natural reading of the Prewrath. I hope you do one day as well
In any event, thanks for the discussion.
Alan
June 2nd, 2009 at 6:17 pm
Joel,
This afternoon, I took the time to respond to Silva’s article. I think you know him. I was compelled to respond to him for two reasons. He repeatedly committed about five lexical fallacies that I documented. And second, it impinged about his theology about the future Antichrist only have a local influence.
I thought you may find it interesting, so I hope you don’t mind me posting it here:
http://www.prewrathrapture.com/2009/06/a_brief_response_to_rodrigo_silva.php
Thanks,
Alan
June 2nd, 2009 at 6:29 pm
Alan,
Perhaps when I have more time, I will deal with this issue in more detail. While you make several valid points, you likewise make several errors and assumptions as well. And from one brother who has made the same mistake myself many times, your tone is a bit “off”.
Ultimately, when all of the relevant info is considered, it is impossible to conclude that the AC will absolutely rule the whole globe. However, it is also impossible to prove that he absolutely will not. All info considered, it is far more likely that his rule will be: primarily a ten nation base with significant influence that extends beyond this, the degree to which we cannot know.
Many Blessings, Joel
June 2nd, 2009 at 7:15 pm
I am open to correction. Thanks.
June 2nd, 2009 at 8:19 pm
Alan,
Throw out the top two or three verses that you believe concretely substantiate the notion that the AC must be absolute. Maybe we can start from there. Also, I am hoping to get an advance copy of your book, if you are able to do that.
Bless ya, Joel
June 2nd, 2009 at 8:37 pm
Joel, which verses in what section are you referring to? The book is not complete and still needs to be edited. It won’t be till the end of summer. But I will keep you in mind.
June 3rd, 2009 at 1:09 am
Hi Alan, I want to thank you again for explaining your position and wish you all the best with your new book. This should be my last posting on the pre-wrath/post-trib topic as well, so here are my final responses regarding why I believe that the seals, trumpets and bowls are indeed much more concurrent instead of consecutive, and why the rapture is post-trib. We will not convince each other of our respective positions, but others will enjoy the discussion and decide for themselves after additional study.
Alan - “(1) The metaphor of a “scroll being opened” is done injustice to the imagery by the concurrent theory. The opening of the scroll is for the purpose to initiate judgment on the world and thus God to reclaim his kingdom. Hence, the reason the trumpets and bowls are contents of the scroll. Once the seventh seal is broken the wrath of God is formally inaugurated (8:1-4). The seals are conditions that allow something to happen..”
MITCHELL: The sky receding “as a scroll” in Rev 6:14 is simply a description of what John saw at the sixth seal and does not preclude the seals, trumpets and bowls from being more concurrent at all. As you stated, it is simply a metaphor and is describing what John was seeing after the sixth seal was opened, which would not do “injustice” to the the metaphor of the sky receding “as a scroll”. Now, regarding John’s description here I believe that he was witnessing the exact same event that the prophet Isaiah was describing in Isaiah 34:4, which is the only other place in Scripture that describes the sky being rolled up “as a scroll”. Isaiah is describing armies at Armageddon and the destruction they will suffer in the exact and immediate context of the sky being rolled back as a scroll. Isaiah 34:3-5 reads, “The Lord is angry with all nations; his wrath is upon all THEIR ARMIES. He will totally destroy them, he will give them over to slaughter. Their slain will be thrown out, their dead bodies will send up a stench; the mountains will be soaked with their blood. All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved and THE SKY ROLLED UP LIKE A SCROLL; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.” Isaiah’s description points to only one time in the eschaton — Armageddon — and just before the battle of Armageddon begins the seals, trumpets and bowls would have all nearly been completed.
Alan - “(2) The first six seals cannot be considered God’s wrath for the following reasons:
First, the Cosmic Disturbances of the sixth seal announce God’s wrath upon the ungodly, “The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.” (Joel 2:31)”
MITCHELL: I agree, and this happens immediately after the tribulation according to Jesus in Matt 24:29. It is impossible for the first six seals to be the wrath of God that we as believers are promised to be delivered from, so you will have no argument from me there.
Alan, “Second, both the responses from the martyrs in the fifth seal and the ungodly in the sixth seal reveal that God’s wrath is soon to come–they have not viewed it already in the past. The fifth seal martyrs are asking when God will pour out his wrath; and the ungodly in the sixth seal are running to the caves and crying out about the impending wrath.”
MITCHELL: Though I agree that the first six seals are not the wrath of God, I would like to share my view briefly if I may on some of these other points you’ve set forth. Here, at the fifth seal, the martyrs are asking when the Lord will judge and avenge their blood upon those responsible for their deaths, and they are told to “wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.” So, the Lord will not pour out His wrath UNTIL the last “fellow servant and brother” is killed. Now, if one were to adhere to the pre-wrath position, one would need to draw the text of of the fifth seal out to its logical conclusion: it would not be possible for anyone to come to Christ after the pre-wrath rapture because the last martyr of Christ had already died, yet we continue to see the saints a number of times later in Revelation persecuted by Antichrist and dying for the faith of Jesus. Or, the position is forced to create another group of “fellow servants and brethren” all together. The post-trib position isn’t forced to explain away this problem.
Alan - “Third, the fact that there are two groups of people, one group being sealed and the other delivered, just before the seventh seal suggests strongly that they are being sealed and delivered from something looming that will come upon the whole world.”
MITCHELL: I agree, and what is coming upon the world is the Divine “orge” of God per Rev 6:16, which is also found after the seventh trumpet and after the seventh bowl. In my view, when all things are considered, this is a significant clue point to the seventh seal, trumpet and bowl all ending together.
Alan - “Fourth, the nature of the events in the first four seals are “natural” (but intense) catastrophes (wars, famines, etc.) carried out by “horsemen.” This is in contrast to when the seventh seal (supernatural contents) is opened up and the unmistakable wrath of God is mediated directly by angels via the trumpet and bowl judgments against the ungodly. (By the way, a fourth of mankind is not killed in the fourth seal; there is only, “power over a fourth of the earth.”)”
MITCHELL: I view the seals as general descriptions of the overall picture from the beginning to the end of Daniel’s 70th week. The trumpets zoom in on the supernatural calamities in general that are meted out upon the wicked during the Great Tribulation (and notice how those suffering these calamities are given opportunity to repent, but do not; and how the trumpets are never described as the wrath of God, whether it be “thymos” or “orge”). Now, look at something we read in Revelation 10:7, “But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.” I believe this is directly related to 1 Cor 15:51-52, which reads “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” Here we have one of the most famous rapture passages in Scripture telling us of a “mystery”, describing the “last trump” and what happens during the rapture when it sounds, and in Revelation 10:7 the “mystery of God should be finished” when the seventh angel sounds the last trumpet. A few verses later in Rev 10:11 John is told that he must “prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.” Hence, the description of the bowls from a more focused perspective.
The bowls themselves as mentioned are a much more focused description and are called the “thymos” of God, and we are told upon whom the bowls are poured — upon Antichrist and those who have received his mark and worshiped him, and persecuted and killed the saints. The end results is the same — they do not repent.
Now, one point I would like to touch on here regarding the bowls is this: note that the descriptions of the bowls and upon whom they are poured leaves open the possibility that there will be many in the world who may not necessarily be believers, but they will not have received the “mark” of the Beast, they will not have worshiped the Beast, and they will not have taken part in the persectuion and killing of the saints, yet since we know upon whom the bowls are poured specifically they would therefore not suffer the “thymos” of the bowls. If that is the case, then how much more likely is it that the saints who are waiting for the return of Christ will in no way experience these judgments? God is able to protect His own and direct His wrath with pinpoint accuracy if He so desires. Moreover, before the seventh and final bowl is poured out Jesus says in Revelation 16:15 that “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” This should immediately bring to mind the words of Christ and Paul who told us previously to watch for the signs that we would witness just prior to Christ’s return. This statement is a strong indicator that believers have not yet been raptured, but are instead still waiting for the soon return of Christ Jesus, and is highly problematic for the pre-wrath rapture position which is forced to conclude that it must be some sort of “parenthetical” statement by Christ to remind the reader just how awful the bowls of wrath will be. But awful upon who? The Antichrist and his followers. The post-trib position is not forced to call this a parenthetical statement since it recognizes that the rapture is yet to happen.
Alan - “Seventh, when the seventh seal is opened, immediately it says that there was silence in heaven for about a half an hour. The most plausible explanation for this silence is for all the members of the heavenly court to observe the grave and profound significance of the event that is to follow: The Eschatological Day of the Lord’s wrath.”
MITCHELL: I agree that the Day of the Lord is about to begin. However, other than an eisogetical reading into the text, we do not know for certain why there is silence in Heaven. If we’re going to be guessing, and knowing that the Apostle Paul directly ties in the Day of the Lord with the rapture in 1 and 2 Thessalonians, from a post-trib view I could surmise that it is because:
1: The 7th trumpet and 7th bowl have begun
2: The dead in Christ are resurrected (1 Thes 4:16, Rev 20:5)
3. The angels have been sent to gather His elect (Matthew 24:31)
4. Christ is about to destroy the armies that have gathered for the battle of Armageddon, and the armies in Heaven follow Him (Rev 19:14)
So, given the fact that angels are sent to gather the elect and the armies of Heaven follow Christ out of Heaven seems to me a good reason for there to be silence in Heaven. That is a much more plausable explanation in my view instead of the “heavenly court” observing the “grave and profound significance” of the Day of the Lord. I don’t read that happening anywhere in Scripture.
Alan - “(3) The placement of the three woes establishes a very important fact: the first six seals do not correspond equally to the first six trumpets nor to the first six bowls. The fact that the completion of woes one and two follows trumpets five and six, respectively, clearly and unmistakably demands a chronological sequence to the seals, trumpets, and bowls. The seventh seal inaugurates the seven trumpets. The seventh trumpet inaugurates the seven bowls. The intensity of God’s wrath demonstrated in the fifth, sixth and seventh trumpets is unparalleled in the first six seals and the first four trumpets. Therefore, the clear dissimilarity between the seals, trumpets, and bowls demonstrates that they are not coincidental and in fact proves them to be chronological in sequence
(4) Recapitulation is incongruent with the nature of the bowl judgments which are seen as much more intense than the trumpet judgments. This is consistent in that they are called God’s “final completed wrath,” a finale if you will.”
MITCHELL: I do not believe that the seals need to correspond equally to the first six trumpets or bowls at all. By the time the first trumpet sounds the first three or four seals could have already been opened, so I believe that the latter seals being opened are prepatory for the trumpets, which are themselves prepatory for successive bowls, until the seventh of each are completed together at virtually the same time — which is evident in John’s descriptions of events surrounding the seventh seal, trumpet and bowl. So, having said that, I believe that perhaps the trumpets are pronouncements, and the bowls are the consequences or the end result of those pronouncements upon closer focus. As they progress they could be timed closer together. The seventh trumpet and bowl are virtually simultaneous.
Let me explain:
* First Trumpet (Pronouncement): hail and fire mingled with blood; third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
* First Bowl (focus: end result of the first trumpet): there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and [upon] them which worshiped his image
* Second Trumpet (Pronouncement): a great mountain burning with fire cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
* Second Bowl (focus: end result): the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead [man]: and every living soul died in the sea
* Third Trumpet (Pronouncement): there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
* Third Bowl (focus: end result): the rivers and fountains of waters became blood.
* Fourth Trumpet (Pronouncement): celestial disturbance - third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. (Comment: massive sun spots or other solar phenomenon?)
* Fourth Bowl (focus: end result): upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire; men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. (Comment: during increased sun spot activity there is also a marked increased in solar activity. A massive solar flare, if timed right, could have devastating effects upon those on the receiving end)
* Fifth Trumpet (Pronouncement): a star from heaven to earth is given key of the bottomless pit, opened; smoke arises, the sun and the air darkened by smoke; out of smoke locusts upon earth, given power to hurt only those which have not the seal of God in their foreheads; tormented 5 months: men seek death and do not find it.
* Fifth Bowl (focus: end result): Upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain and blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
* Sixth Trumpet (Pronouncement): Four angels bound in the Euphrates river loosed - were prepared for an hour, a day, a month, a year, for to slay the third part of men; the number of the army of the horsemen 200,000,000: three horsemen - by these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, smoke, brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
* Sixth Bowl (focus: end result): upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared; he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
* Seventh Trumpet (Pronouncement): the mystery of God finished (Rev 10:7, cf 1 Cor. 15:51-52); there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
* Seventh Bowl (focus: end result): there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, IT IS DONE.
In my view, as welcomed as the pre-wrath position is regarding where it places the timing of the gathering of the elect, I believe that it still falls short in some of the same areas as the pre-trib position: it requires two first resurrections, there must somehow be two last trumpets, it requires two second comings of Christ, etc. From my perspective it also requires significant presuppositions in order to work, such as the reading that the seals, trumpets and bowls as strictly sequential instead of much more concurrent as the Semitic styling of Revelation would suggest (as well as the descriptions of the trumpet and bowl judgments), and presupposes that the days being “cut short” per Matt 24:22 for the sake of the elect must refer only to the lessening of the 1260 days that Antichrist is permitted to persecute the saints, which contradicts Daniel 7:25. Moreover, when Ezekiel 34:4-9 has the armies that come up against Israel already gathered for Armageddon Ezekiel is clear that the Day of the Lord is “near” or “at hand”, however the pre-wrath position completely ignores this by placing the Day of the Lord many months prior to the battle of Armageddon. Either Ezekiel is wrong, or the pre-wrath position is in err. In light of the whole of Scripture, I cannot personally agree with the pre-wrath position.
Much more could be said, but I’ll end with this: everyone should study this for themselves and be convinced in their own mind. It’s a very good, meaty study, but regardless of what view we decide to hold it is not a salvation issue.
June 3rd, 2009 at 5:34 am
Alan,
I am saying to throw out the top two or three verses which you feel substantiate the notion that the rule of the AC will be universal and absolutely global.
Editing is the worst part.
Bless you, Joel
June 21st, 2009 at 11:47 am
Joel,
Thank you for your indepth work concerning Islam and the End Time prophesies. When I began studying the events, I gravitated to Hal Lindsey and Grant Jeffreys. However, with a recent Southern Minnesota visit from Walid Shobat, I have returned to the study with a bit more insight. Are you familiar with Wally, as he is called?
http://www.shoebat.com/index.php
After hearing him and now in my own resumed research, I found your website.
Thanks again,
Daniel
July 5th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
With much prayer and, we believe, direction by The Holy Ghost, the last battle of Gog is the end-time attack of Jerusalem written of in Revelation 20:7-9.
The following scriptures, however, are pertaining to the battle of Armageddon wherein Gog and Magog are defeated before the millenial reign of The LORD God Almighty Jesus Christ…..Ezekial 39:17-20 and Revelation 19:17-21.
The “prophecy teachers” are teaching false teachings as they proclaim that this is to happen prior to the antichrist’s reign. This was not taught in this fashion when we were young. It has evolved over time with one “prophecy teacher” taking from another “prophesy teacher’s” thoughts on the subject of the end-time time-table of Biblical events. As most of what calls itself the Church in these lasts days do not read nor study their Bibles, these false teachings persist.
Living Hope In Jesus
www.livinghopeinjesus.com
July 14th, 2009 at 7:22 pm
While this is not directly related, I’d like to put to rest the argument that rosh is Russia for once and for all, and after careful examination of the ancient OT translations, I think we finally can:
In God’s War on Terror, Joel & Walid state that the debate centers around whether the Hebrew word rosh should be rendered as a proper noun or ordinary noun in the context of Ezekiel 38 & 39. Those who argue for rosh to be translated as a proper noun believe they have a case with the LXX reading, which is as follows:
[38:2-3] Son of man, set your face against Gog and the land of Magog, ruler of Ros (Ρος), Mosoch and Thobel…Behold, I am against you, Gog, ruler of Ros (Ρος), Mosoch and Thobel,
[39:1] …Behold, I am against you, Gog, ruler of Ros (Ρος), Mosoch and Thobel, (New English Ttranslation of the Septuagint)
I did a word search in the LXX and I can conclusively say that the LXX rendering of rosh as a proper noun is in fact a scribal error. Basically what the translator of Ezekiel did was transliterate the Hebrew word rosh, instead of translate it as “chief”, “head” or “top” as he should have. I know this because this same error is found in 2 other verses in the LXX:
[2 Samuel 15:32] And Dauid was coming to the Roos (Ροως), there where he did obeisance to God… (New English Translation of the Septuagint)
[2 Samuel 16:1] And Dauid passed some little way from the Roos (Ροως), and behold, there was Siba… (New English Translation of the Septuagint)
Now look at those same two verses from the Masoretic Hebrew Tanakh:
[15:32] And David was coming to the top (rosh) where he would prostrate himself to God… (Judaica Press Tanach)
[16:1] 1. And David was a little past the top (rosh) [of the mount], and behold, Ziba…(Judaica Press Tanach)
Really now, did David go to the top or to the Roos? Yes the spelling is slightly different (Ρος/Ροως), but it’s the same error as it - the same Hebrew word was erroneously transliterated in both cases.
Further proof that the LXX reading is in error is the readings of the other ancient OT translations. Here’s the Vulgate reading:
[38:2-3] “Son of man, set your face against Gog, the land of Magog, the prince of the head of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy about him…Behold, I am against you, O Gog, prince of the head of Meshech and Tubal.
[39:1] …Behold, I am above you, O Gog, prince of the head of Meshech and Tubal. (Catholic Public Domain Version)
I don’t know why the translator of the CPDV rendered it “the prince of the head” as the Douay-Rheims Bible reads “chief prince”. But nevertheless, the bottom line is Jerome translated rosh as chief in Latin, he did not transliterate rosh as a proper name.
The Aramaic Translations:
There are 2 of these: The Targum of Yonathan and the Peshitta Tanakh. Unfortunately there are no English translations of the the Targum Yonathan (at least not online), and Lamsa’s translation of the Peshitta is not accurate. So I’ve had to translate the readings myself, with the aid of 2 lexicons - the Comprehensive Aramaic Lexicon & the Syriac Electronic Data Retrieval Archive (please note I’m not an expect, check with a native speaker). It’s a shame that few prophecy teachers consult the Aramaic texts, because unlike Greek & Latin, Aramaic & Hebrew share about 90% of their vocablury, Aramaic offers direct cognates for Hebrew words almost every time. So how do these 2 texts read concerning rosh? Now things are going to get very interesting…
Targum Yonathan:
[38:2-3] Bar adam, invoke this prophecy against Gog, of the land of Magog, the rab (great/master) resha (head/top/chief)* of Meshekh and Tubal, prophesy against him…Lo, I will unleash wrath upon you Gog, rab (great/master) resha (head/top/chief) of Meshekh and Tubal.
[39:1] …Lo, I will unlesh wrath upon you Gog, rab (great/master) resha (head/top/chief) of Meshekh and Tubal. (own translatin with the aid of CAL & SEDRA)
*”the great head” or “the master chief” seems to make the most sense
Peshitta Tanakh:
[38:2-3] Bar adam, set your face against the bayta (house/homeland/territory/seat) of Gaug, and against the land of Magug, the medabbrana (leader) and resha* (head/top/chief/) of Mushkhi** and Taubel, prophesy against him…Lo, I am against you Gaug, medabbrana (leader) and resha* (head/top/chief/) of Mushkhi** and Taubel.
[39:1] …Lo, I am against you Gaug, medabbrana (leader) and resha* (head/top/chief/) of Mushkhi** and Taubel. (own translation with the aid of CAL & SEDRA)
*Aramaic word resha is the direct cognate of the Hebrew rosh and is applied only to the person of the highest authority, eg: the High Priest, Head of State or the Patriarch of the Church. I’m trying to get hold of the “Mosul Bible”, this is an Arabic translation of the Peshitta (OT & NT) done by the Iraqi Chaldean Catholics. I bet they translated medabbrana (leader) as imam (leader in Arabic), while the standard Arabic translations (Hebrew & Greek based like Smith & Van Dyk) undoubtedly have amir (prince, following the Masoretic Hebrew).
**Confirmation needed. I was unable to decipher which vowels are used, nevertheless the name is the same in both Hebrew & Aramaic (Mshkh), only pronunciation of the vowels differ. I based my rendering on the fact that ancient Assyrian records read “Mushkhi & Taubel” (the Peshitta Tanakh was translated in Mesopotamia), and that most Aramaic cognates of Hebrew words push the last vowel to the end of the word, observe:
meshiakh (Hebrew) -> meshikha (Aramaic)
ruakh (Hebrew) -> rukha (Aramaic)
qodesh (Hebrew) -> qudsha (Aramaic)
Hence: Meshekh (Hebrew) -> Mushkhi (Aramaic)
The Peshitta’s reading is differs significantly because it specifically states that Gog is both the leader and chief, while the Hebrew says “chief prince”, with a grammatical pause between the two words. Like the LXX the Peshitta Tanakh was translated from a much earlier Hebrew text than the one we use today (Masoretic text), and it was translated earlier than the Vulgate (around 100BC - 100AD). Could this have been the original reading of Ezekiel, which the LXX failed to get right? I find it especially intriguing that the Peshitta’s reading extends the prophecy even to Gog’s bayta, which is probably referring to the location of his seat of power, if not his very household!
July 29th, 2009 at 5:57 am
I know I am mixing the bag once more, but anyhow, would somebody explain the following:
1. Who is the one in Tess.2:7: “untill he be taken out of the way”? It is a masculine pronomine, refering to a male person?
2. Who are those 24 elders, who sat on 24 seats in Rev.4:4? One of them guided John through his visions. John wanted to worship him, but he said dont do that, because “I am your fellowservant, and thy servants the prophets and of them which keep the sayings of this book, worship God”. Rev.22:9. Where did they come from and when? Before Trib?
3. I suppose the 144 000 were translated (raptured) before HG?
4. I suppose the 2 witnesses, whom AC kills in Jerusalem and raises them up after 3 days, are translated (raptured) before HG?
5. If the rapture happens after Trib. and HG, when is the marridgefeast of the Christ?
6. Who are the saints, who accompany Christ from heaven before HG, where Christ shall lead the jewish troups?
Bible uses the term “elect” both of the Jews and the Church. so one must see from the text, which one is in question
July 29th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Sorry, terrible mistake
Point 4 : the 2 witnesses it is God who raises them up, not AC.
.
But AC (Beast) seems still to be very mush alive and kicking at the time.
July 30th, 2009 at 4:39 am
I wonder, if I am right to assume, that when AC comes to Jerusalem,
he cannot conquer it without a fight? Could it be, that this fight is part
of the fightings in Hezekiel and Revelation? “It will be war untill the end”.
Blessings
August 9th, 2009 at 11:27 pm
For good reason their are two seperate battles, remember Satan as well does know the scriptures and the prophecies. While most of the World will be convinced that the Gog/Magog Battle is the Battle of Armegeddon it will then be easy to deceive the masses. Satan will use this occasion to exploit those who will be under strong delusion, that they will believe a lie.
Many will look to the Anti-Christ as the promised Messiah bringing peace to the world added with his promises of prosperity. Notice that under the Gog/Magog invasion their is a diplomatic protest by several nations, yet under the Battle of Armegeddon their exists no such protest, for it is the Lord God that gathers all the Kings of the Earth to the Jezreel Valley. The deception is now being permeated within so called prophecy circles, even Satan has brought delusion to many well known scholars.
This deception began with the influx of followers of Islam who mask themselves as Christians offering a new take on Prophetic passages, creating an Islamic Anti-Christ, along with a supposed Global Caliphate. These errors now continue to build in intensity with every perversion of the clear scriptures. Walid Shoebat and Joel Richardson have brought this deception yet only those with a firm foundation in the Word of God can spot the wolves seeking to devour he prey.
The Lord Yeshua warned us to be aware of these, for this reason we were to continue in fellowship and in one accord, specifically as the day approached, for there is strength in numbers, the wolves look for the weak and vulnerable prey. Trust now in the Lion of Judah, let the discernment of the Holy Spirit be among you, for the Spirit of Truth brings us unto all truth and show’s us things yet to come. These seek to divide the flock in order to persuade them which are babes to follow them.
August 10th, 2009 at 7:06 am
Rodney,
Sigh…
Walid Shoebat and I are secret Muslims? Have you been drinking?
But seriously, what is so sad about this is that you name call, make bizarre claims and yet you do not even interact with the Scriptures. Be a Berean for goodness sake…
August 11th, 2009 at 3:33 am
Joel,
Some of us know the truth, the only people interested in such fiction are those who are scripturally ignorant and follow after every new wind of doctrine or false prophet bringing tidings of peace and prosperity. New revelations are common in Charismatic circles where discipline is non-existent and false doctrine is accepted as truth. Judgement is coming for those who are willing to pervert the Word of God and deceive the weak. For they shall endure great tribulation such as never was, nor ever shall be…Repent for the day is far spent and the time of darkness fast approaches. The Great Shepherd watches over his flock, and the sheep within this fold hear his voice and obey, we recognize the cunning of the serpent and the wolves who seek the prey yet the staff of the Great Shepherd, will smite these enemies and his heel will bruise the serpents head. That means you!
August 11th, 2009 at 4:27 am
Yeshua comes in Power and Great Glory. Biblical Anti-Christ enters in peaceably or uses diplomacy, devises cunning plans, and by peace destroys many. Islamic Anti-Christ or Mahdi comes on the scene by crawling out of some abandoned well. No comparison. The modern Islamic fable describing the Mahdi is ridiculous at best. Enough with this stupidity, Islamic belief has nothing to do with Christian and Jewish prophetic beliefs. Islam is a religion based on the pagan worship of the crescent moon god not the God of the Bible. Just so you know, if some lunatic does crawl out of a well claiming to be some Islamic messianic figure, I am sure a cruise missile will clear it all up. Islam is irrevelant, nothing more than a pagan religion born of bloodlust and conquest. Their is no comparison to the Truth of the Living Word of God. Trust me when I say I will do all that is in my power to expose you.
August 11th, 2009 at 6:04 am
Rodney,
If you have something that you disagree with regarding my presentation here of Ezekiel 38,39 then set it forth Scripturally.
August 11th, 2009 at 11:38 am
Joel,
Evidently, I already have, the prophecy concerning the Gog/Magog Battle as recorded in the Bible indicates a distinct diplomatic protest by Saudi Arabia, Gulf Emirates, Pro-Western European powers including the United States listed as one of the young lions. Historically the Lion was also a heraldic symbol held in the United States including the Phoenix which later became the Eagle. This is recorded in Ezekiel 38:13. The Battle of Armegeddon involves all nations as scripture indicates the Lord God will gather all the Kings of the Earth in the Valley of Decision or Plain of Megiddo. Their really is no need to debate with someone that equates a modern Islamic Fable such as the Mahdi as fact. The attempt by a handful of so called new and improved prophecy scholars to give revelance to Islam being a global power is fantasy at best. The Lord God has his own War on Terror about to debut, those nations that have caused terror in the Land of the Living (Israel) will be decimated. Damascus, now the modern hub for several Islamic Terrorist groups has a date with destiny, their brand of Islamic fundementalism is nothing new. Muhammed was a murderer from the beginning like his father Satan.
August 11th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Their obviously is no protest involved in the Battle of Armegeddon, therefore your theory is bogus. As some well known prophecy scholars have indicated, “Why should we give credence to fairly newly claimed converts to Christianity, or eloquently, put snot-nosed kids when interpreting Bible Prophecy”. While these mature believers have over 50 years in the ministry does mean they are always correct in their interpretation either, however, we have to come to our own conclusion based on the biblical text. I personally tend to give credence to those who exhibit the Fruits of the Spirit in their dedicated labor in the Word of God. For those giving revelance to a religion with demonic origins as comparible to Biblical Prophecy, I believe they are either followers of this Satanic religion or quite possibly apostates perverting scripture for their own devise.
August 11th, 2009 at 6:47 pm
Rodney,
First, let me say that I apologise for asking if you had been drinking. It’s just rare that someone accuses me of being a secret Muslim with plans on deceiving the Church. Now, concerning your point, I actually answered it above to another, but copied it here as well for you to consider.
Okay, first I want to try to get you to recognize the approach that you are taking. No insult against you at all, but this approach (trying to find irreconcilable differences between Ez 38,39 and Rev 16,19) is deeply rooted in the popular discussion of this issue because of these lists having been passed around the Internet so much. When prophecy teachers make these long lists of alleged differences in an effort to “prove” that “the Battle of Gog and Magog” and “the Battle of Armageddon”, are not the same, they utilize a strict reasoning that they would never apply to other portions of the Bible. Let me give a few examples:
“Proof” that the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New are two different Gods:
God dwells in light:
“[God] who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light whom no one has seen or can see.” [1 Tim 6:16]
God dwells in darkness:
“Then spake Solomon. The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness” [1 Kings 8:12]
“Clouds and darkness are round about him.” [Ps 97:2]
How about this one:
“Proof” that these are two completely different occasions:
[Luke 24:4] There were two angels seen by the women at the sepulchre, and they were standing up.
[Matt 28:2,5] There was but one angel seen, and he was sitting down.
Now, as Bible believing Bereans, we know that the above seeming contradictions / “proofs” are quite easily resolved. I do not need to explain that here.
Likewise, with regard to Gog / Battle of Gog Magog (Ezekiel 38,39) and Antichrist / Armageddon (Revelation 16, 19) there are some seeming variances in these two accounts, but none that are so drastic so as to merit seeing these as distinct events. Unless one is pre-determined to do so.
So, what I am trying to say is that when people point out some of these (IMO) weak variances, I must ask why they are so determined to prove this when there is already incontrovertible evidence that this is the final battle between Christ and Antichrist. As listed above, (1) Christ is present, (Parousia), (2) Israel and the nations come to faith, (3) Gods name will no longer be blasphemed (4) etc etc.
That said, some still require an explanation of every seeming variance so I am happy to do so.
Okay, lets look at the seeming contradictions / difficulties that you suggested:
(1) Israel is dwelling safely when the invasion occurs. If Israel is being occupied for 42 months by the Antichrist and his armies how can you claim that they are dwelling safely?
The Gog Magog Battle is a general prophecy about the entire final 42 month period. It is not strictly only focusing on the final period of the 42 months as is Rev 16, 19 (Armageddon). The Armageddon passages are more zoomed in on only that final battle at the conclusion of the 42 months. So before the 42 months begin, Israel is dwelling securely precisely as Ezekiel records. But this security is interrupted by the invasion and abomination etc. Remember that of the AC, the Bible says that he specifically invades when people feel secure:
When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them. Daniel 11:24
And
“Through (false) peace he (Antichrist) will destroy many.” Daniel 8:25
Also, when some demand that the Battle of Gog Magog must be only referring to the final period of the 42 months, they demand something for the prophecy that is never demanded elsewhere. Again, an example:
Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.
In this little two verse passage, it begins with the child being born and ends with him ruling the nations. Where is the mention of the two thousand year gap that we know is there? No where on the surface. This two verse passage is in essence one sweeping overview of the entire coming of Christ - first and second in one fluid prophecy. Likewise Gog Magog is a general overview of the final 42 months. To demand that it could not be so would be without support. Make sense?
(2) In EZE 39 Gog is buried but in Rev 19 the Antichrist is cast alive along with the False Prophet into the Lake of Fire. How do you reconcile this?
First, you would have to explain what being thrown alive in hell means exactly. Is the soul alive? Is the body alive? How can a body be thrown alive into a place that only souls go? If I am to be honest, I have no idea what this passage even means. However, I do know that if we look at the full counsel of Scripture on this issue (as opposed to making the error of comparing Gog only to the AC as he is portrayed in the Battle of Armageddon) then we will see that the AC is clearly killed - just like Gog is also killed. Paul tells us in Thessalonians that the AC will be slain by the brightness of the coming of Christ, correct? How do we reconcile this with the notion that he is “thrown alive into hell”? Could it be like Korah in the OT? Will the earth open up and swallow him? I do not know. Where else does the Scriptures describe the death of the AC? Daniel tells us that the “beast / horn” will be destroyed.
And then the lawless one (the Antichrist) will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8
Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. Daniel 7:11
Clearly, the Antichrist and his Empire will be physically destroyed by Jesus. What does it mean that he will also be thrown alive into hell? I’m not sure, but there is no contradictions between what we know about the death of the AC and what we see about the death of Gog.
Lastly, as for “giving credence” to Islam as if it is true in some way, you obviously have never read my stuff. I give no credence to Islam. I simply show that what Muslims are expecting is setting them up to recieve the Antichrist. I’m sure you would agree.
Bless ya, Joel
August 12th, 2009 at 2:03 am
Joel,
Thanks for explaining your opinion more in depth, however, I believe the Battle of Gog/Magog to occur prior to the Tribulation or Time of Jacob’s Trouble. For this time is reserved for the judgement of the nations and the Lord God revealing himself to Israel through the work of the Two Witnesses as well as the 144,000. The prophecy of Ezekiel does not identify a clear peace, nor does it mention a diplomatic marvel such as the Anti-Christ. The fact that they are at rest indicates that their is some peace agreement in the works, thus the reasoning behind the diplomatic protests as the invasion begins. It is interesting to note those involved in the protest our the same exact nations today pushing the Road Map down Israel’s throat. Saudi Arabia being chief among them.
Shalom, Baruch Ha Ba B’Shem Adonai
August 12th, 2009 at 5:49 am
Rodney,
It is true that there are protester nations in Ezekiel 38. But consider this, during the final period of the Antichrist’s reign, he is at war. And war necessitates resistor nations. Thus the AC will also have enemy nations. Going to war is the ultimate form of protest, is it not? He is fighting enemies right up until the end. So the idea that some nations would protest is not out of the question at all. But not every passage metnions every detail of everything that will happen. Thats why we need the views of all the propehts to get a clear picture. Ezekiel gives us some portions, Joel some others, Zechariah others etc etc.
“The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.” Daniel 9:26-27
We also know that the King of the South will be Egypt that will first fight against but then be conquered by the AC. Yet the popular scenario today is to believe that Egypt will be decimated by the IDF during a Psalm 83 war. Yet they are alive and well enough to challenge the AC after this fact. Likewise several other of the names mentioned in Psalm 83 are alive and well and fighting against Christ when he returns. Edom, Moab, etc etc.
If The Gog and Magog battle happens before hand, then no problem, I will just acknowledge that I was wrong. We are all trying to be watchers. But if the Gog and Magog Battle is part of the Antichrist scenario, then people run the risk of saying that this or that is not the Antichrist, because the Battle of Gog and Magog has not yet happened. This is why we need to humbly consider all possible Biblical options.
We can divide together against the cults and false religions, but when it comes to the best efforts of scholars and teachers to understand the future, this is something that w must all humbly work through together as watchful Bereans.
Blessings, Joel
August 15th, 2009 at 11:14 pm
Joel,
I know you are aware of several individuals endorsing Psalm 83 as an actual battle instead of a prayer for divine intervention in regards to the many enemies of Israel. I personally believe that the Gog/Magog battle is the key to unlocking several prophecies in combination such as the Destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17), construction of the Third Temple, arrival of the Anti-Christ on the scene that will confirm a covenant of peace with many. A recent title known as Israelstine evades the clear meaning of scripture to support an obvious error.
The concept of a Greater Israel does not fit the prophetic picture, the Lord God declares, “I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and PARTED MY LAND..Joel 3:2. It should be obvious within this context that their is no greater Israel in the future until the time of the coming of Yeshua as King. This text indicates that even up until the time of the judgement of the nations in the valley of decision the international community will be in the process of pressuring Israel to continue their campaign of dividing the land.
We have many fables entering the Church in an attempt to mislead people from the clear meaning of prophetic passages. The Bible clearly teaches that prophecy is of no hidden interpretation and the generation that will see it’s ultimate fulfillment will notice it fitting perfectly. The Battle of Gog and Magog is the launching pad for the Time of Jacob’s Trouble. The Psalm 83 fable omits the dynamics now on the ground, for the immediate neighbors surrounding Israel could do nothing without the coordination and cooperation of the outer-ring of enemies or vice versa. Iranian and Syrian proxies coordinate their efforts together. Hezbollah would not launch rockets against Israel without approval by Iran, Russia, and Syria.
August 16th, 2009 at 6:36 am
I have spoken with the author, Bill Salus, and I like him. But I believe that his scenario is very unbiblical. Again, all of the prophets are basically telling the same story. It focuses on the return of Jesus and the establishing of the Kingdom here on earth. Ezekiel 38,39 is no different. Although some are overview descriptions that cover a whole time period, others prophetic snap-shots zero in on one particular element. I believe that Gog is the Antichrist because God says to Gog that he is the one that all of the propehts have spoken about. The idea that Israel will soon dominate most of the Middle East, when in my opinion, Israel will soon be conquered (yes, there is a period of false peace first), is dangerous to the Church. Even as many came to Christ through Hal Lindsey’s books during the 70’s as he pointed out the prophetic fulfillment of the events of 1948 and 67, so also will the conquering of Israel have an adverse affect, particularly if people are believing that Israel is about to soon conquer the whole Middle East and that Islam is about to be wiped out. I think that false propehtic scenarios have the potential to deeply harm peoples faith. Thus we need to understand all scenarios and be watchful and alert and in most of all, in prayer.
Blessings, Joel
August 16th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Joel,
I do not believe that Israel will be conquered, scripture indicates that Israel is firmly planted by God and will never be removed again, this is an obvious fact with the Arab-Israeli Wars of 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973. Israel stands as a testimony to the Truth of the Word of God. The Bible indicates that the Anti-Christ will enter into the Holy Land peaceably and will confirm a peace contract with many nations, yet through this supposed peace he will destroy many. This also can be seen today, the Road Map does not bring peace but continues to put Israel in a vulnerable position as strategic territory held by Israel is put on the negotiating table by the international community.
For the World to accept a global government and controlled commerce an tremendous event must have occurred to convince global citizens that they are vulnerable. As long as Islam remains a threat to the globe, their can be no possibility of security, therefore their must be a global shift, this is why the Gog/Magog Battle must occur prior to the events of the Tribulation. With the devastation of the majority of Islamic armies and Allah being shown to be nothing more than a false pagan idol, many that once embraced Islam will turn to the God of the Bible. Then will the Rapture occur convincing the World that a global peace must be established, and the promise of peace and prosperity will be announced by the Anti-Christ. The Quran suggests that Islam will be a global power, the Bible, the True Word Of God identifies this as a fable as the majority of the Major and Minor Prophets reveal their destruction.
August 16th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
Joel,
One other element to this story, Rabbinical authorities have recorded for years a warning to Israel that when they see the Russian naval forces come through the Bosphorus Strait that they are to put on their Sabbath clothes and not depart their homes preparing for the deliverance of the Lord God Almighty. The Passover was an example of this, in which ancient Israel remained in their quarters protected by the Blood of the Lamb as the Destroyer passed over.
August 16th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
The identity of Gog as Russia is not disputed by Jewish Rabbinical Scholars, I place more faith in the interpretation of these scholars, after all it was the descendants of these same students of the Torah that provided us with the Bible we now have today. The Rabbinical sage Vilna Gaon also identified as the Elijah of his day provided the specifics regarding the movement of Russian naval forces into the Meditteranean through the Bosphorus Strait.
August 16th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Rodney,
Lets consider a couple of hints.
He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. Revelation 13:7
The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time Daniel 7:25
He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy the mighty men and the holy people. Daniel 8:24
He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed… Daniel 11:36
He will also invade the Beautiful Land. Daniel 11:41
Zechariah 12 says that 2/3’s of the people will be “cut off”.
Paul says that the Antichrist will set up his seat in the Temple of God.
Jerusalem will be conquered, trampled and even destroyed for 42 months:
I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. Zechariah 14:2
I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. Revelation 11:1-2
When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Luke 21:20
Jesus told all Jews to flee to the mountains when this time arrives. Matthew 24
Where are they told to flee? To Petra in Jordan:
You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Zechariah 14:5
How could this be unless Israel was invaded and occupied?
Most scholars, Missler, Walvoord Fruchtenbaum will say that the Jews have returned to their land now in unbelief, but will once more return in belief, after the return of Christ. In numerous passages, after the return of Christ, he is seen delivering the captives and those in prisons from among the gentile nations. It is only after these events, in my opinion, that Israel will forever be planted safely in the land, never to be removed.
Just a few things to chew on.
Sorry so brief.
August 16th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
The verses you quote refer to the Time of Jacob’s Trouble or the Tribulation. Notice also that during the time of the message of the Two Witnesses for 42 months they will not be harmed, the same goes for the 144,000 Jewish evangelists that will be sealed against the wrath of God during their ministry. It will be after this 42 months that the Anti-Christ will seek to move his seat of power to Jerusalem by military subjection. The Battle of Gog/Magog occurs prior to this appointed time of wrath. During the time of the Anti-Christ and his armies entering the Holy Land, much of the city of Jerusalem will be occupied, yet not all, and the gathering of the nations will also be taking place.
The Prophet Zechariah identifies clearly in Chapter 14, verse 14, that the remnant of Judah will fight with the Lord Yeshua against the Anti-Christ, his armies, and all those nations that have come against Jerusalem. Therefore, this text clearly identifies that Israel is far from being defeated and clearly holds their ground within Jerusalem. Israel will from that point gather the spoil of all the nations that did gather themselves against Jerusalem and King Yeshua will begin his reign in the midst of his people Israel and all the nations shall serve them. God is not the Author of Confusion it is that man leans to his own understanding grasping carnal desires of fables that tickle the ears and appeal to the desires of the flesh.
The belief that Islam will conquer the known world is a myth easily identified in the prophetic scriptures of the Bible. Ezekiel 32 also identifies those that will be slain by the sword and deposited in the pit or belly of the earth, Egypt, Elam and all her multitudes, Meshech, Tubal, and all her multitude, Edom her kings, and all her princes, and finally the princes of the north including the Zidonians. These all caused Terror in the Land of the Living yet their place was prepared in the depths of Hell. Israel is well known through scripture as the Land of the Living, the Lord God here depicts his own War on Terror against the many enemies of Israel, followers of Islam or not, their place is prepared.
August 16th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
Joel,
Why do you have a picture headlining this blog with the symbol of Allah being prominently displayed? What place does a pagan moon idol have with God? Allah was one of 360 pagan idols worshipped at the Kabbah in Mecca, yet it was the false prophet of Islam Muhammed that gave his patriarchal idol prominence, that being Allah. This idol was worshipped by his family for even his father Abdullah was named after this god of stone. Most Islamists today do not even realize what they worship, they frequently say that Allah means god, yet this is not designated as the God of the Bible it merely means the hierarchy of the pantheon. Remove the covering off the Kabbah in Mecca and you will see the existence of these other pagan idols including Allah.
August 16th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
Rodney,
It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
When have I ever claimed that Islam would conquer the known world? I haven’t.
What religion do you think will conquer the known world? What religion do you believe that the Antichrist will follow?
Why do you have a song that has unbiblical lyrics playing on your site?
If Gog is destroyed before the seven years, and if the destrcution of Gog results in God saying that he will NO LONGER allow his name to be blasphemed, then how do you justify the fact that the Antichrist blasphemes Gods name for three and a half years?
If we are all raptured, then why are you worried about us being decieved by the Antichrist?
Do you think that Gog is Russia? God says that Gog is spoken of by all of the former prophets. Can you sho me one verse anywhere in any of the former prophets that speak of Russia?
August 16th, 2009 at 6:52 pm
Gog, only designates a title, such as chief or commander, the Prophet Ezekiel goes on to explain the geographical area in which this commander or chief will come from. Russia is designated as this area, recognized by Rabbinical Scholars as well as recognized Christian Prophecy Scholars with years of study under their belts. I have no song on my blog with unbiblical lyrics. The Antichrist is notably the seed of Satan and prophetically fulfills this to the letter. In what way do the nations profane the Holy Name of God but by calling Him a liar in seeking to divide the Land of Israel to her enemies for political gain.
No religion will conquer the World, every religion has used military power to conquer territory in the name of their god. Christianity is not a religion, for a religion is a system of works whereby men or women seek to please their perspective deity. True Christianity is by faith alone, trusting in the finished work of Yeshua on the cross as a pure sacrifice, recognizing that by the works of the flesh, no one is justified in the site of God. Catholicism is not Christianity, the innocent lives destroyed under their various inquisitions, crusades, and pogroms identify this clearly. Protestants are also not immune to this under the Puritan movement many innocents were butchered.
I would say Joel, that your fascination with Islam and even bearing the symbol of their pagan deity on your site one can easily come to the conclusion that you are a follower of Islam. Specifically with your unbiblical belief that Israel will be conquered, this is a widely held belief in Islam and indoctrinated in the minds of their children. Where are you from Joel, what is your background? The Quranic fairytale of Israel being destroyed in the Later Days clashes starkly with the Bible. Your book Islamic AntiChrist alludes to the same conclusion that Islam will bring the World into submission. What I believe is that the New Age Religion is not that new and finds it’s birth in the words of the serpent Lucifer, that man is god, this will be the dominant view in the end.
August 16th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
You ignored most of my questions.
Once more:
Show me one verse in the former prophets that speak of Russia. Just one. Yet God says that all of the former prophets spoke of him.
After Gog is destroyed, will God’s name be blasphemed or not? Yes or no?
Where did you read that under the curtain of the Kabba is images of other idols? Cite one source.
August 17th, 2009 at 1:49 am
Joel,
Yes, the nations will profane the name of God, for this is evident when the wrath is poured out they will shake their fists at the very One that has the power over these plagues. The curtain covering the Kabah in Mecca only serves to cover the cracks in the walls, yet there are crates within this edifice that are said to house remnants of the 360 pagan idols. The Kabah has collapsed and been destroyed several times and many times abandoned. It is also suggested that it was once a Hindu Shrine.
Israel from the day of Gog/Magog will no longer pollute the name of God for the Lord will have revealed himself to Israel in power and might for even the heathen nations of the World with acknowledge this. The phrase “It is hard to kick against the pricks” was provided by Yeshua when addressing Saul of Taursus prior to his conversion on the Road to Damascus, this is found in Acts 9:5. Though the nations and individuals many blaspheme the name of the Lord God they will at that time find themselves under judgement rapidly.
I am done addressing this area of scripture with you, I believe if you spend as much time in the Bible as you do the Quran and Hadith’s you would be knowledgeable of these same things. It is interesting to note that the Kabah is a dark place, dimly lit, said to represent a House in Heaven even suggested as the House of Allah, yet it is of poor construction and obscure dimensions, covered so as not to reveal its cracked walls. Surely the god of Islam would be disappointed with such a horrible dwelling. Yet he will be even more disappointed when the Al Aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rock become rubble and dust while the Third Temple rises on the mount.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:41 am
Show me one verse in the former prophets that speak of Russia. Just one. Yet God says that all of the former prophets spoke of him.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:48 pm
Rodney, if you want make claims then bring chapter and verse forward. I don’t care what the pompous self-centred American scholars in the Left Behind camp say, who also DON’T back their claims with Scripture! As for the Rabbis concerning Russia, where have you been? Jewish Rabbis have acknowledged that Gog & Magog is Turkey, see this: http://www.torahohr.net/gogumagog/index.php.
Also I suggest you read this: http://www.biblicalstudies.com/bstudy/eschatology/ezekiel.htm. There is absolutely no evidence for a Russian connection to Gog & Magog, and that article was written in 1985 when the nonsense you’re propagating was the mainstream paradigm, yet that author decided to ignore current events and instead interpret Ezekiel 38-39 from Ezekiel’s ancient eastern perspective, without breaking linguistic rules like Scofield and Gesenius.
Let me be clear here: English is NOTHING like Hebrew, it is falacious to equate Meshech & Tubal with Moscow & Tobol’sk, Hebrew can only be compared with other Semitic languages like Aramaic & Arabic. Another thing that idiots like Lindsey & La Haye don’t take into consideration is the native languages of the countries they’re pointing their fingers to. The Russian word Moskva (Moscow) cannot in any way to be tied to Meshech and the German word Deutschland (Germany) cannot be connected to the Hebrew word Gomer.
What I find rather amazing is that this belief in a Russian connection is largely absent among non-English speaking Christians. Why is this? Because they don’t see the connection, try comparing the Spanish or Chinese translations of Moscow & Germany with Meshech & Gomer, and you’ll see the problem. After all if it’s the truth, surely ALL Christians, including those who don’t speak English will be able to see the connection to Russia, wouldn’t they??? But they don’t, so what should that tell you?
It is amazing how much more objective Bible translations into languages other than English are, seems it’s only the American church that has an “axe to grind”. The only modern Bible translations I’ve seen with the reading “Gog, prince of Rosh” are English translations. As for the ancient translations all of them read “Gog, chief prince” except for the LXX, but if you think you can use it as proof you are sorely mistaken as I already demonstrated in my previous post that it’s a scribal error.
You come here acusing Joel & Walid of being crypto-Muslims, yet you offer no motive for why any Muslim would even study Bible prophecy, let alone teach it to Christians. Why is it that when it comes to Bible prophecy, popular western scholarship feels the need to throw common sense out the window? And then you launch into insults when Joel challenges your views, Rodney that is how Muslim apologists behave, so you are actually being a hypocrite. Resorting to insults is the most obvious sign of defeat, you haven’t proven Joel wrong, all you’ve proven is that your view is indefensible and that means your view is false. If you can’t cite Scripture to back up your claims then you don’t have a case.
August 17th, 2009 at 11:47 pm
Alex,
Josephus also identifies that the present location of the southern steps of Russia was once occupied by Scythians a people traced genetically and historically to the people now occupying Russia. As far as a Muslim studying Bible Prophecy, it was Muhammed that studied early Judaic and Christian writings when formulating the mythical Quran. Notice that Yeshua told believers to observe the signs around them to know that prophetic fulfillment was underway, current events are these sign posts. Russia does fulfill the prophetic role mentioned in Ezekiel by being not only a guard and chief arm supplier to the nations of the coalition, yet presently stand in bold opposition to not only Israel but the Western World. Historically the Soviets were involved in each Israeli-Arab conflict whether in logistics or command observers. The Sons of Japeth settled in the area of the Caucusus, Meshech, Tubal, are these sons of Japeth, Arab peoples are from Ham as well as the Asiatic and African peoples.
August 18th, 2009 at 3:10 am
Alex or Walid Salameh?
Pennsylvania has no record of a supposed Walid Shoebat Foundation, seems to me it may be an Islamic Front. Joel I am aware of Rabbi Simon and what was done to him. I will expose your true identity.
August 18th, 2009 at 6:02 am
Rodney,
Your comment explains a lot. Do you support that Messianic sex cult in Florida that Simon Altaf is part of? You do realize that “Rabbi” Simon is a heretical polygamist who denies the trinity, who has made up his own Bible translation with extra books in it, do you not? Would you like me to put you in contact with his ex-wife Aliyah? She would be happy to tell you about his “godly” character. As Simon’s former friend, Walid stood up for his ex-wife, and as a result Simon has gone after Walid and threatened his family. Now you are threatening to do the same to me? As far as my real name, I have one thing to say: Go after me theologically all you wish, I have asked you three times now to provide one scripture from the prophets that speaks of Russia. Answer if you can. If you disagree with me theologically that’s one thing, but if you expose my real name, you expose my wife and three little girls to very real danger. If this is the type of man that you are, then do what you feel you need to do. You are only exposing yourself and showing what kind of person you really are.
August 18th, 2009 at 11:55 am
Rodney said:
Alex,
Josephus also identifies that the present location of the southern steps of Russia was once occupied by Scythians a people traced genetically and historically to the people now occupying Russia.
Alex says:
Josephus said that the Magogians are what the Greeks call “Scythians”, but he says nothing about location of the actual LAND of Magog. And this is the crux of the matter, Ezekiel wrote “Gog of the LAND of Magog” NOT “Gog of the Magogians”, the issue is geography NOT anthropology. IOW what we need to find out is WHERE the LAND of Magog is NOT WHO the Magogians are! And the truth is we have no way of determining this for certain because the ancient records don’t agree with each other. The bottom line is both the land of Magog and the Magogians are, to this day, a mystery.
A word about Josephus: Josephus’ statement that the Scythians are the Magogians is as Fred G. Zaspel said: “without support from historical anthropology.” Historians have identified the Scythians as descendants of Ashkenaz, this is confirmed by ancient Persian & Assyrian records (which date closer to Ezekiel’s day not hundreds of years later!) which call them the “Saca” and “Ishkuzai” respectively. The Scythians were an Iranian people, closly related to the Medes (Kurds) and Persians (Iranians), their closest modern descendants are the Tajiks of Tajikistan.
The Russians are NOT descendants of the Scythians. The Russians are descents of the Vikings who intermarried with the Slavs (both of which are also unrelated to the Scythians!). The word “Russia” derives from the Old Norse word “rus” which means “oresman”, referring to the Vikings who migrated from Scandinavia by sea. None of these peoples (Russians, Slavs & Vikings) existed in Ezekiel’s day.
While it’s true that the modern descendants of the Scythians still occupy the ancient region of the Scythians, what you are failing to grasp is that these people are NOT ethnic Russians! But the point is, it doesn’t matter WHO the Magogians, Meshechites or Tubalites are, what really matters is WHERE Magog, Meshech are Tubal are! Ezekiel wrote Magog, Meshech & Tubal NOT Magogians, Meshechites & Tubalites, i.e. Ezekiel is talking about and places NOT peoples!
Rodney said:
The Sons of Japeth settled in the area of the Caucusus, Meshech, Tubal, are these sons of Japeth, Arab peoples are from Ham as well as the Asiatic and African peoples.
Alex says:
Firstly, to be specific the Arabs are actually Hamo-Semitic. The Hamitic element came from Hagar (Egyptian) and intermarriage with Sheba & Dedan (sons of Kush), while the Semitic element came from Abraham (Aramean) and intermarriage with the ancient Arabians (sons of Joktan & Keturah).
Secondly the sons of Japeth which originally settled (and still occupy) the regions of the Caucasus & Central Asia were Turkic and Iranian peoples, modern ethnic Russians are unrelated to these peoples. These regions are now populated by Caucasions (Chechens & Georgians), Iranians (Kurds, Tajiks & Afghans) & Turkic (Turkish, Tatar, Kazakh, Uzek, ect.) peoples, all of whom are unrelated to the Viking-Slavic Russians, and are Muslim today. Also while Meshech & Tubal are sons of Japheth they have nothing to do with the Russians. All reliable historical sources (i.e. ones that date to Ezekiel’s time!) place Meshech & Tubal in modern day Turkey.
Rodney said:
As far as a Muslim studying Bible Prophecy, it was Muhammed that studied early Judaic and Christian writings when formulating the mythical Quran.
Alex says:
It’s highly doubtful that Muhammad actually studied either the Bible or extra-Biblical Judeo-Christian writings, the many blunders he makes (like confusing Yeshua’s mother Mariam with Moses’ sister Mariam) rules out this possibility. The poor quality of the Biblical quotes in the Quran clearly suggest that Muhammad got his information exclusively from oral sources and repeated them from his obviously imperfect memory.
Rodney said:
Notice that Yeshua told believers to observe the signs around them to know that prophetic fulfillment was underway, current events are these sign posts. Russia does fulfill the prophetic role mentioned in Ezekiel by being not only a guard and chief arm supplier to the nations of the coalition, yet presently stand in bold opposition to not only Israel but the Western World. Historically the Soviets were involved in each Israeli-Arab conflict whether in logistics or command observers.
Alex says:
If a nation is not specifically named by the Prophets, and that means EVERYTHING west of Greece, south of Sudan, east of Iran, and north of Turkey, then quite frankly I’m not interested. It truly amazes me how most prophecy teachers and students are focussing on every nation except the ones they’re supposed to – the nations that are SPECIFICALLY NAMED. If you insist on wasting your time with Russia, the EU & the USA, then at least deal with the nations YHWH SPECIFICALLY NAMES FIRST!!!
August 18th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
Joel I smell a Muhammadan.
August 18th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Having given this further thought, I’m banning Rodney from making any further comments. When he says that he will do everything in his power to expose me or to reveal my actual name, this is a direct threat to my family. When asked simple questions, he responds with insults, bizarre accusations and literal threats. I would be foolish to continue to give anyone an open platform to put my family in danger.
August 18th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Wise choice, it’s obvious this guy is not interested in an intellegent debate but in making trouble. Still there are others here who are reading this so I don’t believe our efforts to refute him were in vain.
August 24th, 2009 at 11:37 am
Joel,
I just finished reading your book “The Islamic AntiChrist”. It was well written, and is causing me to rethink what I believe concerning the end-times. I must also say, that by skimming through this series of posts and the arguments in all directions, I have learned more about eschatology than from many other sources that I previously studied. I am now motivated to work out for myself the chronology of Revelation, since I cannot decide on whether the events are chronological or coincidental.
I remain skeptical, but not dismissive of your thesis. I am persuaded fully that Islam is “an” anti-christ system, but not necessarily the final, and most deadly one that is prophesied in Revelation. The most important of your arguments was the identification of the seventh and eighth kingdoms of Rev. 17. I hit the history books to see if you left any invading powers out of your list to make it tidy (which many sloppy exegetes do to shore up their crazy theories). I was surprised to learn that the Hittites, Sassanids and Mongols never took Jerusalem. You exclude the Crusader Kingdom and the period of European domination (such as the British Mandate), but if we call them Christian, then they should not be listed among the Beast’s kingdoms. You collapsed the Rashidun, Umayyad, Abbasid, Fatimid and Ottoman periods into a single Muslim empire. Is this warranted? They are unified by religion, which no previous two Kingdoms were. But the particular ethnic group that was in dominance varied over the several periods. Nevertheless, I am willing to concede that the Islamic Empire in its many forms constitutes a single empire, the seventh kingdom of the beast.
But my most serious criticism is in identifying a resurgent Islamic Turkish empire as the eighth kingdom. Here is the quote from Revelation 17:
9″This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. 11The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.
The key phrase is “once was and now is not”. When John is being addressed by the angel, when is “now”? The time when John lived? Or the time of the end which he was being shown by the angel?
If “now” referred to John’s time, then the Roman empire is the kingdom referred to as “one is”, which is how you made your argument in your book. To be consistent, therefore, “one was and now is not” must refer to one of the first five kingdoms, not the seventh! (Or perhaps some other ancient empire besides that five.) Thus the eighth kingdom is most likely to be a resurgent Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia or Macedonia (Greece).
Four of these nations are currently Islamic, so your main thesis is not brought into serious question. One is marginally Christian - and European. But only one hails to the north: Assyria (Syria), which will be the weakest of the five as soon as Babylon (Iraq) recovers from our invasion.
The possibility of Greece (which is to the northwest) conquering the middle east is remote, but it would surprise the world more than if a powerful confederacy of Islamic nations did it. Of course, if Greece were to take the rotating leadership of the EU, then a charismatic, demon-possessed man could accomplish much.
Where this leaves me is that your thesis is well argued, but this hole allows the popular notion that a confederacy of European nations is the beast’s kingdom to survive as a logical possibility. Indeed, look how many peoples are threatened today by Islamic extremism: Europe, America, Canada, Australia, India, China, Russia, etc. If 75% or more of the wars going on in the world are caused by Muslims, and a demonic power wanted to bring “peace”, then it seems to me that if he could defeat the Muslims in battle or through diplomacy, the rest of the world would follow him gladly. My take is that the devil has set up the Islamic empire as his foil, so that he can pretend to be our savior by delivering us from another of his puppets.
How do you respond?
- Paul
August 24th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Paul,
First I want to apologise for being so brief here. My position is that we need to be Bereans as you clearly are and also humble with our specifics. So while I do hold to some specifics, I try to be open to variances like the one you suggest. That said, be careful of missing the forest for the trees. So we must not examine Rev 17 in isolation. It needs also to be compared for instance with other passages such as Daniel 2 to see that the final Empire (the feet) flows out of the that which came prior (the legs / Islamic Empire). Also, be careful of reading too much into an English translation. Tense issues are often difficult. Personally, I am convinced that the eighth is a revival of the seventh specifically. In fact I believe that unless we recognize this, the passage almost does not make sense. They are expressed as if they are one and the same yet distinct, precisely like Daniel 2 (legs / feet). Beyond this, because I view the various Caliphates essentially as dynasties in one larger Empire as you recognized, I am looking for the revival of the “Islamic Empire” that was “beheaded” by the western powers and Mustafa Kemal Ataturk in 1924. Again, sorry so brief.
Bless you, Joel
September 12th, 2009 at 10:08 am
Alex,
You appear to be the same Alex that posted awhile back regarding Aramaic primacy of the New Testament. And by the way, I am persuaded that you are correct, in large part. But what I’m interested in today is your statement during that prior thread that you could provide a synopsis of the errors/problems that you believe exist in the Greek translation of the Revelation. If you could elaborate on a few of this issues, I would love to hear them.
God Bless
September 12th, 2009 at 11:01 am
Alan K.,
If you’re still following this thread, I have a question for you regarding the imagery of the golden censer of Revelation 8.
I agree with your assessment of the heavenly court reacting to the profound significance of this event, given their silence. Yet, I wonder if there is a little more to this imagery. When the angel fills the censer with fire from the altar and hurls it on the earth, this is almost universally interpreted as an act of judgment from God. However, I have often wondered if this is also, or alternately, an act of atonement for man. There are a few Old Testament passages that seem to portray this symbolism.
The first is in Leviticus 16, where burning coals from the altar were placed in a censer to protect Aaron’s sons in the presence of the Lord. The second is in Isaiah 6, where a seraph touched Isaiah’s tongue with a live coal from the altar in order to atone for his sin. The third is seen in Ezekiel 10, where coals/fire from the altar were scattered over the city before the Glory of the Lord departed. Each of these could be interpreted in the context of atonement.
Any thoughts on this?
October 4th, 2009 at 10:26 pm
Michael K.
I have a book on the Day of the Lord due out next year and I do cover this. In fact, there is a surprisingly amount of new scholarly research on this imagery in Revelation 8:1-4. I do not have this entire argument from the research crystallized at this time, but, yes, indeed, the OT background informs us with a protection-atonement application to this NT context. In addition, the imagery supports that God’s Day of the Lord’s wrath is about to begin, encapsulated in the unfolding of the Trumpet and Bowl judgments. This will all be unpacked in the book. If you follow www.prewrathrapture.com I will announce more information on the book in due time.
Thanks,
Alan
October 9th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
What a very convincing treatise on the singularity of the Gog and Magog and Armageddon battles by Joel! I also appreciated reading through the responses above, especially Mitchell and Alan K.’s dialogue about post-mil and pre-wrath positions on the return of Christ.
I had a few thoughts and suggestions that may be obvious to Joel, his “Responders”, and his readers, but nonetheless, here they are:
First, I endorse Joel’s comment on “tone”. We are presumably brothers and sisters here, and pretty much everything discussed above doesn’t affect one’s salvation; so a higher level of respect, deference and politeness should be expected and expressed.
Second, some of the issues discussed seem to be secondary or tertiary issues—by that I mean not only are they NOT salvation issues, they are not even that immediately important to a believer. These would be questions such as “Are the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls successive or concurrent?” or maybe even “Is the rapture pre-wrath or post-Trib?” They are interesting questions, and many are worthy of debate and may be ultimately answerable, but don’t rise to the level of being a significant error if we get it wrong.
On the other hand, there ARE some End Times teachings and answers that seem to be increasingly essential to believers who take seriously the need to be watchful for Christ’s return, per scripture. They include:
1. Timing of Gog/Magog Battle–Is there a major battle that wipes out Islam prior to the Trib? If we’re expecting it, and it doesn’t happen, then when the Antichrist is active we might be unaware of his true identity, since we’re expecting Gog and Magog to come first.
2. Is there a pre-Trib rapture? If not, and we’re expecting one, we may be unprepared to deal with the persecution and difficulties ahead—in fact one might be deceived enough to fall in behind AC, thinking that the rapture comes before AC. Serious error.
3. What is the extent of the AC group of nations? Will it be truly global, or have a global impact but be regional, surrounding Israel? More study and insight is needed on this question, because if it’s a limited alliance and there are regions of resistance and divine protection, it offers hope and the potential for believers to partner with the Holy Spirit through prayer and organization, maybe even now.
I would be interested in seeing a list developed of practical, essential doctrines discussed that could be implementable for believers, both in their own lives and communicable to others. Insightful scholars such as Joel and Mitchell herein, and others like Mike Bickle/IHOP could put the time in of prayerful study of the Word to help us lay people deepen our understanding and focus our attention on essentials.
Of course understanding our purpose and destiny through the Great Trib and into the Millenium is a huge motivation and encouragement.
It’s exciting that through prayer and intimacy with God (branch-vine connectedness) that we can participate with his End Times plan.
November 17th, 2009 at 12:50 am
Joel,
Just a comment concerning the “mountains issue.” I heard Lance Wallnau explain once while lecturing on ” taking the seven mountains of influence,” that when the Bible uses the term, “mountains” it is nearly always refering to government or nations. Does this help or hinder your conclusion/interpretation?
November 17th, 2009 at 1:00 am
Joel,
I listened to your interview on Sid Roth and I was amazed at how many of the things you said were exactly the same as what I heard from Walid Shoebat….the former PLO terrorist turned Christian. (He has been on YouTube with people like Chuck Missler and has been on CNN and the O’Reilly Factor. ) Do you know of him…?
November 24th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Mitchell, you believe the last trump in 1 Corinthians 15 is the trumpet judgments and the Pre-Wrath group does not. Many believe the last trump has to do with the Jewish Festival, Feast of Trumpets or Yom Teruah. Many believe, including me, that you have to go back to the Jewish culture at that time to have a full understanding of scripture. Many Christians believe that Jesus fulfilled the Spring festivals literally and I believe along with many, that the Fall festivals will be literally fulfilled as well.
Alan, I cannot wait for your book. We have conversed before on my blog and you briefly spoke about it then. Stop posting on these blogs and finish it!!!
November 24th, 2009 at 10:22 pm
Hello Joel, I am glad that this entry is still active. Have you come across, “A Second look at the Second Coming” by T.L. Frazier, which looks at Eschatology from the viewpoint of the Orthodox Church.
I’d like to know.
Thank you.
December 19th, 2009 at 12:00 am
Angie95 says, “Mitchell, you believe the last trump in 1 Corinthians 15 is the trumpet judgments and the Pre-Wrath group does not. Many believe the last trump has to do with the Jewish Festival, Feast of Trumpets or Yom Teruah. Many believe, including me, that you have to go back to the Jewish culture at that time to have a full understanding of scripture. Many Christians believe that Jesus fulfilled the Spring festivals literally and I believe along with many, that the Fall festivals will be literally fulfilled as well.”
I also believe that the Fall Festivals will be literally fulfilled as well. But you know what, I also believe that the 7th Trumpet of Revelation 10 will somehow line up with the fall festivals in some way.
But there are more reasons why I believe the trumpet of Revelation 10 to be the last trump of 1 Cor 15:51-52 and the trump of God in 1 Thess 4:16:
Let’s take a closer look at this “mighty messenger” that is described just before the seventh trumpet sounds. I believe that we can ascertain exegetically and hermeneutically that the “mighty messenger” that John sees coming down from Heaven (often translated as “angel”) in Rev 10:1 is a direct reference to Christ Jesus. (We need to keep in mind that “angel” does not always refer to a created being, though it normally does in most cases. The Greek word for “angel” simply means “messenger” and at times can be referring to a Christophany, especially in the Old Testament.) John borrows extensively from the Old Testament so this could very well be a Christophany here as well, and I believe that it is. Here is why.
In Rev 10:3 we read that “he gave a loud shout like the ROAR OF A LION.” This is a significant clue in my opinion, for we know that Christ is the One who roars at His coming. Jeremiah 25:30 says that, “‘The LORD will roar from on high, And utter His voice from His holy habitation; He will roar mightily against His fold. He will give a shout, as those who tread the grapes, Against all the inhabitants of the earth.” In Hosea 11:10 we read, “They shall walk after the LORD: he shall ROAR LIKE A LION: when he shall roar, then the children shall tremble from the west.” Joel 3:16 says, “The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD [will be] the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.” Amos 1:2 says that “The LORD will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither.” 1 Thess 4:16 says that “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven WITH A SHOUT, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first”.
Are there more clues here? Yes.
Note that this “mighty messenger” in Rev 10:1 comes down from heaven “clothed with a cloud”. During the Second Coming Jesus Christ is “coming in a cloud with power and great glory” (Matt. 24:30, 26:64, Mark 13:26, 14:62, Luke 21:27, Rev. 1:7, Dan 7:13). Indeed, even when Jesus ascended to Heaven “he was taken up; and a cloud received him” (Acts 1:9).
Even the “rainbow upon his head” is another clue in my opinion. (The only other reference to a rainbow in Revelation is in 4:3 when John describes the throne of God. Could the rainbow be symbolic of holiness, authority, the Covenant?) Moreover, “his face was like the sun”, which should remind us immediately of the Prophet Daniel’s description of the Messiah in Dan 10:6 where the prophet writes that, “his face [was] like the appearance of lightning”. In Rev 1:16-17, the One who calls Himself “the first and the last” is described by John as having a face “like the sun shining in all its brilliance”. It should be quite obvious to us that this is none other than Jesus Christ.
Matthew Henry (along with numerous other commentators, scholars, and theologians) agrees. In his commentary regarding the “mighty messenger” of Rev 10:1, Henry writes that “… it could be no other than our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ! 1. He was clothed with a cloud: he veils his glory, which is too great for mortality to behold; and he throws a veil upon his dispensations. Clouds and darkness are round about him. 2. A rainbow was upon his head; he is always mindful of his covenant, and, when his conduct is most mysterious, yet it is perfectly just and faithful. 3. His face was as the sun, all bright, and full of lustre and majesty, ch. 1:16. 4. His feet were as pillars of fire; all his ways, both of grace and providence, are pure and steady.”
Absolutely, without a doubt in my mind, the rapture is seen at the 7th and last trumpet in Rev 10.