The Open Challenge
In the midst of all of the world turmoil that now seems to dominate the daily news cycles, many across the Body of Christ are trying to understand what all of these things mean. Where are world events leading and what should we expect to happen next? The burden of helping the Church to understand what the Bible says about these things falls upon those who have been called not only to understand, but also to teach the Church what the Bible says about these things.
Over the past thirty years, the Body of Christ has seen an explosion of interest in and an emphasis on Biblical prophecy. During this time, there have arisen many very excellent teachers of this subject. In recent years, a debate has arisen among prophecy teachers that now seems to be coming to a head. The question that is arising is regarding what the Bible actually says about the nature, the characteristics, and the location from which the Antichrist, his empire and his religion will emerge. Throughout the history of the Church, the majority position has been that the Antichrist would come forth from the Roman Empire. Today, that belief has popularly been narrowed down into a European specific emphasis. Other teachers however are now pointing to numerous passages throughout the Bible as proof that the Antichrist will come from the surrounding nations that are today the Islamic neighbors of Israel. Various leading voices have emerged in this camp who are effectively communicating this position to the Church and many are embracing this Middle Eastern End Time Paradigm. In recent months, in smaller forums, some from among the European End Time camp have begun to openly challenge the proponents of the Middle Eastern position. As one of the leading voices in the Middle Eastern camp, I have attempted to address this debate by personally asking a handful of well-known leading voices from the European camp to join with me in co-authoring a book whereby we could openly discuss the various Scriptural supports for our respective positions. To date, I have personally invited such well-known teachers as Mark Hitchcock, Dr. Tommy Ice, Dr. Randall Price and Dr. David Reagan to join me in such a project. I am confident that such a work would greatly benefit the Body Of Christ and help the Church to sort through the various strengths and weaknesses of each position. Surely in an age of growing global radical Islam, such a volume would be very timely and edifying to the Body of Christ. I have received an overflow of e-mails excited about such a project. Yet to date, none have accepted the invitation. Beyond this, both Dr. Reagan and one of his students, Bill Salus are both quite openly writing negative articles about the Middle Eastern End Time Paradigm and those who espouse it, yet they have also both refused to debate the issue publicly. Also, just recently, I spoke with both Dr. Tommy Ice and Dr. Randall Price about this issue. It was a very disappointing conversation to say the least. First I extended the invitation to Dr. Tommy to co-author a book as mentioned above. Dr. Tommy’s response was both surprising and very saddening. He claimed that because he has written several books arguing for the European perspective, he could never change his position. Not wanting to push the implications of such a statement, I agreed to his decline. “And besides, you are just plain wrong anyway.” He added. Which of course gave me a chuckle. So, on one hand, you are unwilling to step into the ring, but you are still willing to throw jabs behind the scenes? Needless to say, I took the bait. I asked Dr. Ice if the Roman Empire had ever crushed the Persian Empire (a feat that would be required to Scripturally fulfill the biblical criteria for the fourth kingdom per Daniel 2:40). Dr. Ice immediately responded, “Absolutely it did.” I reminded Dr. Ice that if one were to simply look at a map, that it is quite clear that the Roman Empire never came close to reaching—never mind “crushing”—the Persian Empire. In fact, it was the Parthian Empire that stood as the Roman Empire’s greatest unbeatable foe to the East. To that, Dr. Tommy switched up his approach and decided that the phrase “will crush all the others” (Dan 2:40) does not really mean “all”. Reminding Dr. Ice that there are only three other empires, I asked how many qualify as “all”; one or two? To which Dr. Tommy then again switched his approach and decided that “all” did mean all afterall, but that the passage should not be taken literally. Despite the fact that it says that the fourth empire would “crush all of the others” (Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece), it was only inferring that through conquering Greece, Rome had in fact conquered all three of the others. To this I reminded Dr. Ice that although I once held to this view, it is simply not what the verse is saying—not a small problem for the position. And beyond this, it is also entirely illogical. If the Cardinals beat the Colts who beat the Ravens, who once beat the Patriots, this in no way infers that the Cardinals beat the Patriots. The Roman Empire may have succeeded the Greek Empire but it simply did not conquer the majority of its holdings to the East. It simply could never take Persia. Not even close. Lost for a reply at this point, Tommy simply retreated to his original comment and declared, “Well, you are just wrong.” Obviously frustrated, Dr. Tommy then handed the phone over the Dr. Randall Price who he said could better help straighten out my errors. Sadly, my conversation with Dr. Price followed a similar pattern as that which took place with Dr. Ice. Hanging up the phone, I was genuinely saddened that these teachers were so closed to the simple historical facts as well as the clear meaning of Scripture. I was also saddened that behind the scenes these men are all too at ease to boldly declare that the Islamic End Time Paradigm is unscriptural but are unwilling to publicly lay their cases out before the Church to examine. That said, I want to humbly, and yet very directly (on the 15th of February, 2009), extend an open challenge and invitation to any well-known leader or leaders from among the European End Time camp to join myself (Joel Richardson), Walid Shoebat and Chuck Missler in an open and televised round table discussion or debate. We have secured a few Christian TV stations and shows that have agreed to air any such discussion or debates. All we need now are a few qualified leaders who will step forward to defend their positions publicly. The Return of Christ is quickly approaching; the Body of Christ needs solid answers. The predominance of Islam in the earth and the overwhelming emphasis on Islamic Nations throughout the Scriptures is no longer an issue that can simply be ignored by the Church. A revolution is taking place within the world of Biblical prophecy, and the time for this discussion has come. We will be awaiting a response. Feel free to send any replies to menosabe@hotmail.com
Bless you,
Joel Richardson
February 15th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Best of luck Joel. You are clearly right and I am sure someone will eventually step up. I also wonder if this is part of the deception of the Enemy. I am sure he does not want to be clearly identified.
Dan
February 15th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Yes. It really is sad at how Pharisaical some of these Propheratti have become. The truth is so clear in Scripture that it baffles the mind how one could miss it. The European Emperor wears no clothes, yet the sheep keep flocking, but the tide is quickly turning. Keep up the good work Joel! Looking forward to see what comes of this.
Joseph Farmer
February 15th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
They are so invested into their view, that any challenge is a threat.
The problem with their view is they “base” it on history, yet they are theologians, which make poor historians. Because they use history to “support” their theory and theology, in other words, their theory and theology shapes history, not the other way around.
They put the cart before the horse, and anything to the contrary is ludicrous. No matter how crazy they may appear defending their view.
February 15th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
Joel: Appreciate the tone of your approach. I know some of those guys. I have never found any of them prideful, contrary to the suggestion in some of the comments above.
I hope something comes of this.
Also, I would disagree with your assertion that the teaching of Bible prophecy has been growing in the church. I think it’s just the opposite. I think the signs are more intense, but the teaching on this subject is, generally speaking, declining. That decline might itself be a sign.
February 15th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
I would not call it prideful, but more of a unwillingness or even a denying spirit.
All of them have written books and made a name for themselves in this field. For them to be proven wrong or even to verify another form of belief is tantamount to acknowledging themselves being wrong or potentially being wrong. They are afraid.
Look how Calvinist and Arminius treat each other, somehow a civil conversation means that they could be wrong. What fear lies beneath them is that an argument by a smarter person could unravel their belief.
Christians fear being wrong more than anything else.
February 15th, 2009 at 7:06 pm
Bonjour !
Doesn’t all this debate show what people have in their hearts?
Like 1 Samuel 16.17 says: man looks upon the outward appearance, but Yahweh looks upon the heart.
Bravo Joel for fighting for the truth about the end of time. May Abba continue to enlighten you on this issue and may He give you even more insight and wisdom.
Doesn’t the above behaviour from Doctor Such and Such clearly show what they have in their hearts?
Why do they refuse to acknowledge what the Bible teaches?
Could pride be involved?
“These six Yahweh hates; yea, seven are hateful to his soul…
What are the FIRST two: a proud look, a lying tongue… (Proverbs 6:16-17)
The question is: are we prepared to submit ourselves to the truth of the Scripture or not?
The end of time issue is one thing, but this is not the most important one, is it?
What about worshiping Yahweh in truth and in Spirit?
Doesn’t’ Yeshua tell us: “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15)
Why then do Pastors and Drs. So & So teach us the law is done away with?
Christ comes back for a Bride that is ready, sanctified and purified. If we want to be amongst the wise virgins (and not amongst the foolish ones), haven’ we better get ourselves ready?
Would not that be wiser for each of us, knowing that “Yahweh will render to every man his righteousness and his faithfulness “(1 Samuel 26:23)?
“For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He shall reward each one according to his works.” (Matthew 16:27)
May we “Study earnestly to present ourselves approved to God, workmen that do not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.” 2 Timothy 2:15
Blessings,
FX
February 15th, 2009 at 10:37 pm
Hi John,
I agree. Mark Hitchcock for instance I have aways found to be very polite and down to earth. My personal desire of course is more friendly public discussion and less debate.
And sadly, the spirit of the age is indeed gaining ground. Far too many churches are embracing a post-prophetic worldview. Or they are simply adjusting their prophetic perspective to accommodate their zeitgeist emphasis: Focusing more on healing the ecology, embracing hyper-preterism and thus effectively disregarding or utterly spiritualizing vast portions of the Old and New Testaments. Maybe then the world will accept us. If that doesn’t work, then we may have to resort to self-mutilation such as ear-lobe gauging with Large clay disks. I’m sure they will accept us then. (No offense intended if you have your ears gauged.)
Its sad because prophecy is a powerful apologetic as the truth and reality of His Word. Personally, my burning desire is to get past the “what” and start moving into the “what now”, the “how to” and the “what for” or more appropriately, the “Who for”. But much of the Church still doesn’t understand the basics of the “what” yet. And thus “The Open Challenge”.
Bless you! Joel
February 15th, 2009 at 10:44 pm
Joel,
We wish you good luck. We pray for you.
May God give you wisdom and excellence in all these debates. This message is of utmost importance to church in Europe.
Blessings from Poland.
February 16th, 2009 at 12:59 am
Amen, we are praying that the Lord will use you to continue to shine the light of truth onto what we are now seeing in the world. Islam will soon overwhelm Europe. The evidence is too overwhelming to ignore. Come Lord Jesus, and open the eyes of your Church to what is coming soon onto the whole earth. Your churches are not prepared. Prepare your Bride!
God bless you Joel, we are all so grateful for your and Walid’s ministries. And God bless Chuck Missler too. We are soooo thankful for all of you!
February 16th, 2009 at 1:21 am
Joel,
I agree with you, especially concerning the ‘what now’ and ‘how to.’ God has led me to re-evaluate what my role has been and what it should be at this time. Having been so involved in politics and government, He first led me to fast from politics for 3 months (oh this is so hard to do!). Next He gave me two books to read - 1) The Myth of a Christian Nation by Gregory Boyd which I would HIGHLY recommend ALL Christians to read!!! It has completely changed how I look at this world - completely……….
2) The Great Omission by Dallas Willard - this surprisingly is the ‘how to’ book that should come after reading The Myth.
It could very well be that God sees our political involvement as wasted effort at this point in time and is encouraging us to serve others and bring as many as we can to Christ - especially if we are indeed nearing the end of times (or in it).
God bless you for your obedience and faithfulness in spreading the truth.
February 16th, 2009 at 1:25 am
Joel,
This weekend my wife and I were watching Christian Television as we tried to relax from the events of the past week. There were a plenty of shows on end-times prophecy. Most, albeit not all, of the speakers appeared to be sincere, filled with a sense of urgency, etc. However, NONE of the speakers viewed the ME and Islam has having ANYTHING to do with the AC or the AC religion (except to the extent that some how Muslims would spontaneously decide to join a “new age” church movement or the Echumenical Movment, etc.).
After channel surfing for several hours we concluded that it was entirely likely that the great majority of people who turn to these “teachers” for instruction will be decieved into feelings of safety at the very moment real danger is upon them because it won’t be led by the Pope or a European.
I fear many will actually fall away because things won’t be playing out as they expected it. In fact, their “failure” to see scripture fulfilled may just be the thing to make them decide to believe the Islamic claim that the Jews and Christians “corrupted” the Bible.
When I first heard Walid and later read “Will Islam Be Our Future?” I was skeptical about a ME AC because what you and Walid were saying was so contrary to what I had previously read and been taught on the subject.
However, the more I studied scripture and history on my own, the more I became convinced that your approach made more sense. Simultaneoulsy, I began to view Islam and Islamic Eschatology as a “Diabolical” plot…. literally!
I know that many of the readers on this page are trying to wake their local church communities out of their slumber and prepare them for what I now believe is an imminent conflict of “Biblical” proportions. The program you have described would be a great aid. However, even if you find no takers to your challenge, please consider putting together a program (or better yet, a series of programs) in which the arguments for and against the “Roman” and ME AC are systematically compared and contrasted.
Such a resource is desparately needed.
John
February 16th, 2009 at 1:31 am
One person I think may be willing to have a debate is David Pawson. I know he wrote a book years ago about the Roman view of the end time. From what I know of him he has always come across as someone who is willing to change his point of view if it can be proved from scripture and he has on occasion done this. The problem is that because he is maybe not a big name outside of the UK, you maybe looking someone bigger. I would like to see this debate come about.
February 16th, 2009 at 2:05 am
Ahhh….Joel, what are the western prophecy teachers who support a sinking ship (aka Revived Roman Empire) so worried about? LOL
If they understand prophetic scripture sooooooo much, then they should be more than happy to take your “up-start” challenge and crush it shouldn’t they? Aren’t they eager to prove you wrong with God’s Word who is the source of truth, love and grace, etc. and qucikly forgive you for your inherrent ways? They are fellow brothers of the faith and they should know “Iron sharpens iron. So one man sharpens another.” (Proverbs 27:17) is this not of God spoken thru his servant, Solomon?
Keep making public challenges, Joel. Eventually, someone will have to do something…
February 16th, 2009 at 2:08 am
Joel,
I am a Pastor of a small church in Arkansas. For years, I also accepted the whole western european antichrist view. However, your book changed all that. I now believe as you do concerning where the antichrist will come from.
What you say makes sense, pure and simple.
I am one of those people that likes to make absolutely sure I know what I’m talking about before I teach anything to anyone. That being said, I want to make sure I understand correctly. The empire that will be “revived” during the tribulation, the one over which the antichrist will rule, is a revived version of the Ottoman empire, is that correct?
Respectfully,
Mark.
February 16th, 2009 at 2:21 am
I was watching Glenn Beck on Fox News this weekend and he had a guest on talking about the radical leadership of Iran and how Iran’s leadership wanted to hasten the coming of their “Islamic Messiah” Mahdi figure by creating chaos and the conditions necessary to hasten Mahdi’s appearance (he spoke from the Shia perspective, the Sunni believe in the Mahdi but differently than the Shia). Glenn Beck looked at his guest and point blank stated, “If you look at the extremist Muslim version of the Mahdi, and then you read the book of Revelation, he suspiciously looks like the Antichrist”. Strange how someone like Beck in the mainstream media can connect a couple of dots, but many of today’s prophecy teachers can’t.
You can view the segment here:
http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/C02C8B42-C5BD-4D34-B23F-2669871E28B9/
February 16th, 2009 at 7:57 am
Peter,
David Pawson is perhaps one of the greatest theological minds out there. I respect him immensely. I doubt that he would desire to travel across the ocean, but I would love to co-author a book with him. His book When Christ returns is perhaps one of the best End Time overviews out there. Like Pawson, I am also a post-tribber.
February 16th, 2009 at 8:12 am
Mark,
Good. As someone once said, “I’ll know my song well before I start singing.”
The AC empire is a revived version of the previous empire. This is the 7th empire of Revelation 17 and the fourth empire of Daniel 2 and 7. In Daniel 2, the only empire that fulfills the very clear biblical criteria of Daniel 2:40 is the historical Islamic Empire that consisted of the various Islamic Caliphates. The Abbasid, the Ummayid, and lastly the Ottoman Caliphate or Empire. Thus we should expect to see the Islamic Empire revived to life. Precisely what that will look like is yet to be seen, but Ezekiel 38 and Revealtion 13 together give is a fairly clear picture. Ezekiel 38 tells us that Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, and Libya are the most likely nations to be the primary nations involved. Others might include Lebanon, Palestinian Territories and possibly several others. Revelation 13 confirms this when it describes the final Beast as essentially being a composite of the Lion, Bear, Leopard (ie., Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece). I hope that this helps.
Bless You!
Joel
P.S., I am not all that far from Arkansas. Always happy to do a week-end with your Church if should ever have the desire.
February 16th, 2009 at 8:15 am
Mitchell,
Glenn Beck once had some of his researchers study my book and asked John Hagee a bunch of questions about it. He never mentioned my name but cited several lines verbatim. I would love to do a show with Beck.
February 16th, 2009 at 8:17 am
John,
My first DVD and my forthocming second one will do just that. Of course, God’s War on Terror also does that albeit in a book form.
Bless You!
February 16th, 2009 at 9:10 am
Joel,
Yes sir, it helps…thank you much.
I will look into having you come to our church. I think that would be awesome. I am currently teaching the book of Revelation on Wed. nights.
I will be in touch.
Mark.
February 16th, 2009 at 9:38 am
Joel,
Speaking of David Pawson, if a co-authored book with you is not possible for whatever reason, how about a tele-conference broadcasted with one of the Christian stations to discuss both eschatological positions? If David is agreeable, I think that would be a good compromise. Just a suggestion for you to consider.
February 16th, 2009 at 10:01 am
One more thing Joel, I emailed Glenn Beck (who is Christian, btw) and told him to put you on his show. I’m sure it will work! LOL
Give me credit, if it works! LOL
February 16th, 2009 at 10:06 am
Although Islamic, the Ottoman Empire was not really a Caliphate per se, even though they wanted to make it look like one. Also, they tried to have their leaders called Caliphs, but they were rather called Sultans. Ottomans (Turks) are not Arabs, they are not from Ishmael/Esau.
The revived Empire is the Arab Islamic Caliphate, specifically the Umayyad Caliphate which geographically resembled the “leopard” or Grecian Empire the most. Also, historians agree that the Umayyad Caliphate was the most jihadi-like, most aggressive, militant, the superpower of its day.
The Umayyad Caliphate was based in Syria. Syria today is led by Alawites which are a Fatimid (from Mohammad’s daughter Fatima) offshoot of Shia Islam, but are neither Shia nor Sunni, thus the perfect ones to make peace between Shia and Sunni and have them united in their common goal to destroy Israel.
Daniel 11 calls the AC the King of the North and some Bible translations have King of Syria instead of north, because Syria’s capital, Damascus, literally means “to the north”, “northern”. Damascus (and no other city!) will soon be wiped out and the AC will move to Jerusalem and rule from the Temple Mount. Every single country in the middle east submits to Damascus’ policies and now Europe and America too, Kerry is visiting Damascus for the 3rd time now.
I pray that we stop listening to traditions (even ones that we currently are creating like the “revived Ottoman empire”) and start listening to what YHWH’s Word is actually saying. Shalom.
February 16th, 2009 at 10:29 am
Glenn Beck is Mormon, but would be great to have the word out on national TV.
February 16th, 2009 at 10:38 am
Hello Joel~
Can’t thank you enough for your helpful input on my Jordan/Edom/Moab question, it’s a great study springboard (at least for me.) In reference to your open invite for commencement of a “round table” on the AC scenario. For sure the names you mentioned are important ones. But have you considered calls to Hal Lindsey and/or Tim Lahaye ?!?! I mention these men for they are responsible for information dissemination of MUCH of the present Eurocentrist/Caucasian AC worldview. Adding the needed zest to our education would be to have an OT/NT Biblical scholar who specializes in the ancient ME [and ANE] languages and history. Say for example someone with the name of Michael S. Heiser. Mike is slightly reticent to engage in a lot of end time prophecy talk (his reasons are unknown to me) but you might be able to convince him. A few months back he did some dialogue on this subject in a thread on one of his blogs; probably still some archived if you care to check it out. Mike is a wellspring of Scriptural knowledge and I can’t recommend him enough. There is one more item attendant to the end time AC scenario that I’m thinking is remarkably overlooked: the False Prophet VERSUS (key word here) the Antichrist. Most Scriptural references (they are few in using the actual word ‘antichrist’) to the AC are termed as “spirit of” whereas the FP we definitely know to be a human. Now I have no firm position on this….I’m only suggesting it as topic because we just might be having another misguided and wrong-headed portrayal hogging up doctrinal space. Not to mention TRUTH. Carry on and Gods will be done. Amen.
February 16th, 2009 at 10:51 am
Hi Paul Evans—
Thank you for your short-but-sweet feedback. I couldn’t agree more (personal experience is always the best teacher!)
February 16th, 2009 at 10:59 am
I would say these men have much more to lose than pride. If/when they realize they are wrong, they’ll have to declare their whole back issues, books, dvds, etc. as wrong, and that’s where prophet becomes interchangeable with profit. Especially with men like LaHaye, Lindsey, Van Impe, Jeffreys, etc. who’ve made a living off of the revived Roman empire.
Joel God bless you for your work man! The word is getting out there, it seemed to start as a trickle but it’s picking up steam!
February 16th, 2009 at 11:51 am
Joel, I think you have completely the right attitude. We Christians should certainly be pooling together: It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. (Proverbs 25:2) Unfortunately I’ve found through experience that most Christians are very defensive about their interpretations of scripture and I think a large part of the reason is insecurity, that their subconscious is telling them that if they are wrong about one thing then maybe they are wrong about all of it. There isn’t much solid faith around anymore and a Christian’s personal theology can sometimes become their rock instead of their beloved saviour. I don’t know if this is true for any of these prophecy experts. But I’m sure that with or without them, God will get the truth out to those who are seeking.
February 16th, 2009 at 11:57 am
Greetings forsockssakes (LOL! that’s a mouthful!)~
But of course! I seriously doubt they’d ever consent to Joel’s offer. ((It’s just that any undertaking of this magnitude would be complete without even a whisper of Lindsey and Lahaye– their responsibility is enormous.))
February 16th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
BeBerean
I entirely agree, it would be awesome to see the fathers of modern Christian mythology in an open discussion! And yeah their responsibility is enormous:
James 3:1 Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check.
February 16th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Larry, I believe it is the “revived Ottoman Empire”, Daniel 11 has nothing to do with this empire,contrary to what most believe. I use to think it did have something to do with the endtimes, due to its similarity to Ezekiel 38 and 39. But I am a student of Classical History and the last few verses that most attribute to the end times is in fact a fulfilled event.
The king that “passes through Israel” and attacks Egypt, was Augustus, he launched an invasion from Syria, passed through Israel and left what is now Jordan, alone and captured the wealth of Egypt and permanently ending the power of Egypt.
Between the invasion of Egypt by Julius and Augustus destroyed Egypt and since has never recovered.
Rev. 13 the beast described fits the Ottoman Empire. It controlled the land of Macedonia, Byzantium and Persia. And by proxy: Babylon, Assyria and Egypt.
Rev. 13 is the Ottoman Empire. The “Beast from the Abyss” that is mentioned in Revelation is the revived Ottoman Empire. That can be found in Rev. 20 The beast released from the Abyss and Rev. 9 the beast that is released from the Abyss and Rev. 11 that kills the “two witnesses”.
February 16th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
Larry LA your right. Beck is Mormon. I did not know that until I checked YouTube and saw his “testimony.” Nevertheless, God can use a cultist too and if we campaign in email to Glenn to get Joel a spot on his show, God will use Joel on a national platform. Thanks for the info.
Glenn sure exposes the values of conservatism that I agree with most of the time. I do love, love, love his show.
February 16th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Larry LA if you feel that Syria is the origin of the AC; how is Syria more northern than Turkey if Ezekiel 38:15 says from the far north Gog will come? (Excluding Russia, of course, as a non ME nation in keeping w/the Islamic Paradigm.) Just an honest question.
February 16th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Hi Joel,
I see you mention you’re post-trib. Have you considered the pre-wrath take on the tribulation and rapture?!
February 17th, 2009 at 12:01 am
“He claimed that because he has written several books arguing for the European perspective, he could never change his position.”
I used to debate with atheists (actually closet agnostics as I define them) regularly and it always boiled down to choice. One has to take a serious look personal allegiance…more than a serious look, one has to grab personal allegiance by the neck and look at it face to face. If that other face is not Jesus, throw it away. Many won’t do this.
It doesn’t mean the Eurocentric end-timers are lost, no more than it means Catholics who truly trusts Jesus for their salvation are lost. It just means they could be closer to the Truth if they were to shed some allegiance, where being closer to the Truth is not only good for its own sake, it will better prepare one for things to come.
Joel, I think I have come to know you over the past couple of years and I feel safe in saying that I believe if you found evidence that proved the Eurocentric view (or some other) was correct, you would not hesitate to plant your feet there. The problem with intellectually honest people is that they expect other intellectuals to be the same, mirroring I think it is called. Not that the others are intentionally being dishonest, but they have not conducted an allegiance check, or if they have, they haven’t made a proper decision.
There are going to be many Euro end-timers out there who believe what they believe because they have seen no better evidence. In time they will decide for themselves. For those who have chosen their camp despite scriptural problems they can’t solve and in light of other solutions, no amount of reasoning or force can drag them past their gates.
The Lord himself promised us there would be a great deception and we ought to heed that warning. I suspect by the time all of the scrolls are laid open, our heads will need a good amount of time to stop spinning. Thank the Lord we have eternity to look forward to.
February 17th, 2009 at 12:02 am
Joel,
I have also e’mailed Glenn Beck about you and your work. And I actually got to speak to him live on the air about 2 1/2 years ago and announced your website address out to the masses! I hope that he will pay attention and get you on his program.
I appreciate what you’re doing in attempting to engage these men concerning the ME AC paradigm. Somewhere along the line, they’re going to have to deal with this and its good to know that they at least have an idea of who they can go to when it boils down to the fact that they are wrong about a European AC RRE.
It really disappoints me the arrogance and un-teachable attitude that seems to come from these people. Someone said above that we must pull together. That couldn’t be more true! I pray that as the heat increases, pulling together will happen. We need one another as much as I’d like to chew these characters out!
If they are so confident of their positions and are that comfortable with themselves and their handling of Scripture on the matter, why not challenge you? I believe they know something is afoot deep in their hearts that they cannot reconcile against the fact they’ve taught what they’ve taught for years and profited from it.
I don’t know that any of them read your site but I call them out right here and now and invite them to bring the discussion on if they can.
People are waking up to this paradigm and the laity are coming to know the truth! I spoke with a lay member of the Presbyterian Church in my town for about an hour in my office about all this. She had actually come to my Church attempting to join together in Bible Study when we rolled out some of the big topics.
It sounded like she had been raised with the RRE Euro AC eschatology but was hungry for more. This is completely understandable because the RRE stuff takes you away from the hot spot, the ME.
The laity are being drawn to observe the times and search out the truth. They know what they’ve heard which has left them unsatisfied, but when you spread this ME AC paradigm out in front of most of the laity, at least in my experience so far, they eat it up. I have watched so many people confirm the accuracy of this eschatology in their spirits.
In my United Methodist Church, I could hold up the Newsweek cover you recently posted and translate the question into english for the congregation and most of the people would know exactly what I was talking about. I don’t stop thinking about this and I don’t stop teaching either.
I have taken numerous “left behind” folks and introduced them to the Scripture they thought they were following. The clearity on the other end is something to behold. The work you and Walid have done quenches the spiritual thirst like left behind cannot do. I continue to watch it over and over with great satisfaction! And to that end I will continue on because the Church must be informed and become prepared. We’re only going to get one shot at all this as the battle for the ages comes to a head.
So continue on as well, because one day ‘they’ will come to you.
February 17th, 2009 at 12:04 am
“Glenn Beck is Mormon, but would be great to have the word out on national TV.”
Glenn Beck may be Mormon, but he is obviously an honest and God fearing man. I have a great deal of respect for him and really appreciate his work.
Remember, God chose for him to live in this age as well, and judging by the work I see him doing, I count him on the good side for sure.
February 17th, 2009 at 12:26 am
Hi Joel,
You know some of my history - grew up at the feet (literally) of Dr. John Walvoord, Dr. Charles Ryrie, Dr. Merrill F. Unger, et al. Heavily influenced by Dallas Theological Seminary and the Revived Roman Empire eschatological school. Your thoughtful and provocative insights into the new paradigm of a ME AC is both scripturally and historically sound. You’ve won me over, and I know how important the distinctions are to prepare our fellow believers for the rapid birth pangs that are overtaking the world. The Messiah’s footsteps are becoming louder daily.
But FWIW, my lifelong fascination with biblical prophecy and it’s strong place in Christian apologetics has suddenly taken a back seat. I know it’s important, but feel sharing my faith in these end times has taken preeminence, yet I feel hindered on every side from doing so! Are there others out there who feel and experience this spiritual warfare? Boy howdy, may the Lord give us strength, wisdom and guidance as he wraps up this age of grace.
February 17th, 2009 at 1:38 am
Paul Evans,
I am aware of the interpretation you mention on Daniel 11:40-. It is another attempt to nullify prophecy about the end times.
Daniel 11:40- looks like Ezekiel 38-39 because IT IS the same battle. We should stop listening to people’s interpretations who try to fit history to events that are future and listen to what YHWH’s Word actually says.
Dan 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. (the last part is paralleled in Psalm 83 as the people that Assyria (the AC) is helping by creating the so-called Palestinian state, the descendants of Lot who are Ammon and Moab)
In Daniel 11:40 the King of the South pushes at him (the King of the North-the AC) and the King of the North (the AC) comes against him (the King of the South), it is an exchange between 2 kings, South and North (the AC).
The King of the South is not Egypt, but Judah or present day Israel which is Judah, not all 12 tribes (the word ’south’ is H5045 ‘negev’ and means Judah, only occasionally it means Egypt which is in fact the word ‘Mitsrayim’ which we find in verse 42). As a matter of fact, recently the State of Israel moved important military equipment and bases to the Negev desert.
We barely averted this conflict recently when Syria was working on chemical weapons and several engineers were killed in a supposed accident. Also, Israel recently bombed a nuclear reactor that was under construction in Syria. But this cannot be indefinitely averted, soon Israel will attack again Syria and Daniel 11:40- will happen and Damascus will be nuked, like the IDF says that in situations like that they have to use the doomsday weapon. Daniel 11:39 is another famous AC verse, he “shall divide the land for gain”.
Verse 45 “And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.” refers to the AC establishing his “tabernacle” between the Mediterranean, Sea of Galilee and Dead Sea on the Temple Mount and THERE he will be killed by Yeshua when He returns. Other translations say “upon a glorious and holy mountain: and he shall come even to the top thereof”, the top or the Temple Mount. This is paralleled in Daniel 8:25 “he shall be broken without hand” and in Revelation when the AC is destroyed not by human hand, but by the glorious appearance of Yeshua and the sword (word) coming out of His mouth.
Like I said, the AC Empire is a revived Islamic Caliphate, but Ottoman is NOT scriptural. It has to be an Arab Caliphate led by an Arab from Syria. Turkey will be a member though.
Daniel 8:8-9 says that the AC comes out of one of the 4 divisions of the Grecian Empire (the Seleucid division), specifically from the area that is south-east of the seat of the Grecian Empire (Greece) and NEAR the Beautiful Land (the word H413 “el” means ‘near’ and in certain cases ‘toward’). Now, this narrows it down to ONLY Lebanon and Syria. Actually Ezekiel 28:1-10 calls the AC, the Prince (or ruler) of Tyre which is in Lebanon, today a Syrian puppet.
Isaiah and Micah call him the Assyrian. The Assyrians moved west to Syria, in fact, the name Syria(n) comes from the Greek “Sirioi” which the Greeks used to call the Assyrian people established there. Syria has the largest Assyrian population after Iraq. When ALL prophecies are put TOGETHER, they clearly point to a Syrian AC, NOT Ottoman.
Shalom
February 17th, 2009 at 9:20 am
Mitchell,
I saw that spot from the link that you posted on the Glenn Beck show last Sunday (repeat from weekday show) which featured Joel Rosenberg. I was finishing my bible study lesson and this spot caught my attention immediately and I began listening…
Now, Joel I know you do not necessarily agree w/the “other” Joel and you explain that on your forthcoming DVD. We briefly spoke about him during break at your book table at the conference. But help me, can you explain briefly why you disagree w/the “other” Joel again? He seems to be on the same track as you eschatoglogically, what am I missing? Refresh my memory for this older lady…
February 17th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
Joel,
I assume you’ve actually gotten Chuck Missler to agree to sit on your side of the panel for this, since he’s part of your open challenge - that’s extremely cool.
Ever since I adjusted my thinking on major eschatological points such as rapture timing and end time kingdom identification, I’ve often wondered how these modern prophecy teachers would handle things if they were forced to acknowledge that the perspectives from which they had taught (and sold books and held conferences) for so long were likely wrong, and how difficult that might be, knowing that their very livelihoods could be based on faulty interpretations. Very sad to see Dr. Ice respond in such a way, that he can “never” change his mind.
February 17th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
I agreed with you Larry, but it didn’t post again.
The city of Hierapolisin western Turkey has been traced to Magog and so also with the city of Hierapolisin in Syria was called by the Syrians Magog; This city is now called Manbij or Hierapolis Bambyce, an ancient city in the Aleppo Governorate, Syria.
The CRADLE of MAGOG is located in the NORHERN SYRIAN city of Hierapolis Bambyce
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manbij
The place first appears in Greek as Bambyce, but Pliny (v. 23) tells us its Syrian name was Mabog (also Mabbog, Mabbogh). It was doubtless an ancient Commagenian sanctuary; but history records it first under the Seleucids, who made it the chief station on their main road between Antioch and Seleucia on the Tigris; and as a centre of the worship of the Syrian Nature Goddess, Atargatis, it became known to the Greeks as the city of the sanctuary (Ieropolis), and finally as the Holy City (Ierapolis).
I have a feeling God was speaking of Gog’s lands before they migrated to other places, like Turkey and on to Russia. The origianal location of these peoples seem to fit better with the other scriptures.
Notice that the peoples missing from these prophecies are Assyrians/Syria/Babylon. I am pretty sure it isn’t because they won’t be involved in the Gog war but is because God is refering to those places by the older name of the land of Magog.
God bless
Norma
February 17th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
The time of the end of that period was the time that Christ was born. It starts from the time that Alexander’s empire splits and the king of the north is Seleucid Empire and the King of the South is Egypt (Ptolemy) either the whole chapter is about them or no one, you can not keep the names of them for one group and then suddenly change them when it becomes convenient.
The entire chapter goes from the beginning of that time period. Vs 36 to 39 is King Herod. Vs. 33 to 35 is the Maccabean period. The book ends at the time of the birth of Christ. So vs. 40ff must happen at that time period.
And the thing is It happened and it was fulfilled by Caesar Augustus, when he invaded Egypt. The time of the end is to be interpreted by the author not the reader. The time of the end in this case was c. 30 B.C.E.
When the Roman Empire was being formed, the rise of the sixth empire.
Ezekiel, as i said, i used to think 11:40 was chap 38 and 39, but somethings did not add up. One they did not invade Israel as Ezekiel describes. So the two are different events. Also Egypt is not this wealthy country anymore, it is one of the poorest nations of the Middle East. They would do better to attack Iraq, if they want wealth.
I think those that hold those vs to future is in the same predicament as the challenge that Joel is issuing. There is enough historical evidence to prove my position right, yet everyone dismisses it the same way this EC people dismiss Joel and his Islamic view.
Daniel 8 is talking about the Macedonian empire being split, but the empire that precedes it is not mentioned. So this must be accounted for in Daniel 11.
It is, It is talking about Antiochus Epiphanes, who invaded Israel and desecrated the temple and it was restored by the Maccabeans.
The end that is being talked about is the time of Christ birth, not the end of Christ return.
February 17th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
hmmm… Antiochus did not die in Israel as described in this prophecy. No one to date has done those things spoken about in Dan11:40-44. I don’t believe the resurrection of the dead has taken place already. And I don’t bleive the time, times and half time of the beast has already taken place, which would have to be the case if you are appointing all these things to Antiochus or even the Romans.
In Him
Norma
February 17th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
Yes, Augustus did. The resurrection of the dead is in chap. 12. Times, et el is future.
The problem is this: Daniel saw all this happening at once, he did not anticipate anything happening after chap. 11 other than what happened in chap. 12
He did not anticipate two thousand years of time. So his “end” was to happen at the birth of Christ, which was why they wanted a “military messiah”. Which why Paul expected the end to happen in his time.
We are taking the chapter to be future, when it is past, but Daniel expected the end to happen around 30 B.C.E.- 12 C.E The invasion of Egypt by Augustus and the rise of King Herod and the birth of Christ.
February 17th, 2009 at 5:22 pm
Good4U,
Rosenberg believes that Gog Magog Ezekiel 38,39 invasion will be shattered in Israel soon. He sees Gog as a separate individual other than the AC. Plus he is pre-trib. He thinks that the AC will be European with a ME headquarters in Iraq where a new religion will form.
February 17th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
No one every expected a two thousand year gap.
So I don’t see how this settles anything. But a separation of Dan 11 from Daniel 12 is not possible since it says and at this time, meaning at the time of the events of the king of the north of verses 40-44, then the resurrection would take place.
Augustus was not a king of the North, being that he was not from the same areas that the former kings of the North were from. This is very important. Once again it is trying to fit Rome into the picture because they were the next empire to arise but in the west. The problem is that it is not the next empire to arise that we need to look at. It is the next empire that incorporates the same lands as the three former empires. Rome did not conquer a large part of those lands, certainly not the North which included the Seleucid and Parthian areas.
The church as a whole needs to cut Rome out of the picture when it comes to the rise of the final empire, or we are not going to stand a chance in understanding the prophecies. Rome wasn’t a leg on the statue, isn’t the 4th beast, and wasn’t the 6th head of the beast in Revelation.
I realize it takes time and takes people like Joel, and those with him, that are willing to dedicate their lives to opening the eyes of the church. I thank God for them and the work they are doing. But they are fighting against teachings that are deeply ingrained in the church and it is a long hard road. I am not saying they understand it all, and might not have to make some adjustments along the way, don’t get me wrong. It is a learning process.
God bless
In Him
Norma
February 17th, 2009 at 7:15 pm
Why Norma, you are the female counterpart of Joel! You two should write a book. One half for the female readers Norma can write and the other half for the male readers Joel can write…then everyone will get it! LOL
It is like ants marching up the ant hill…marching, marching, some day we will stamp out this sad misinterpretation that has veiled the churches’ eyes for so long and I pray it doesn’t come too late…like this fall.
Frankly, every year I watch international politics around the “high holy days” of the Jewish religious calendar. It is extremely important to prophecy students like myself. Joel, do you know what I’m talking about? (I know you do.)
February 17th, 2009 at 7:22 pm
Joel,
My internet pastor and I have been teaching a “Revived Greek Empire” for almost a decade now. Your reference to the nations mentioned in Ezekiel 38 is right on.
Unfortunately, your “post-tribulation” rapture position is the WEAKEST of the various positions. This, in turn, weakens your “Middle East Antichrist” position.
I noticed that one of your blog readers suggested that you investigate their “prewrath rapture position”. I wouldn’t recommend that position but would suggest that you, at the very least, investigate the “midweek rapture position”.
You can find everything you could possibly want to know about the midweek rapture position at www.midweekrapture.yuku.com/bthemidweekrapture
In Christ,
Jim
February 17th, 2009 at 7:31 pm
Joel,
A fair scriptural case can be made for Gog being the SATANIC aspect of the Antichrist. Here’s why:
1. The Antichrist and the False Prophet are cast into the lake of fire ALIVE at the battle of Armageddon.
2. Gog goes to the grave at the battle of Armageddon. That is consistent with Satan being chained in the bottomless pit.
Therefore, it is possible that Satan, the spiritual aspect of the Antichrist, separates himself from the Antichrist when the Antichrist is cast into the lake of fire.
Keep in mind, that SATAN enters the Antichrist making him Satan Incarnate, the son of perdition. This is consistent with Satan entering Judas Iscariot, thus making him a “son of perdition”.
In Christ,
Jim
February 17th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
“Augustus was not a king of the North, being that he was not from the same areas that the former kings of the North were from.”
In the literal sense you are correct. But he launched his invasion from Syria, entered into Israel and attacked Egypt. He was allied with Libya and southern Egypt in order to take down the Ptolemy line and the “many Caesars”.
Rome is in this picture because Rome is mentioned. But, Daniel and the Passages do not see Rome as a “major” player, the way it is worded almost makes Rome an nonexistent empire, other than just a few incidents.
Granted Rome is not a major player today as many believe, I agree with you there, but I think many have neglected Rome in many passages, even if they are mentioned in passing.
But seeing Rome in this passage does not neglect that the Seventh and Eighth empire is the Ottoman Empire. It means that, they have to be seen as fulfilled. Which I do.
The only difference between what Joel and others like him teach and Roman centrist is that they see the empire as only with a different color. European see blue and Joel and others see green.
They all have a lot in common and not that much difference on the passages, other than seeing Rome or Turkey. I agree with Joel’s and others conclusion, but I see many of their passages as being fulfilled.
So i am not looking for a “man of peace” or a seven year treaty, or some world religion, ect. But I see a time period that is 3 1/2 years, no peace treaty, a reformation of the Ottoman Empire or something similar. I see an alliance of Iran, Turkey, Sudan, Libya, ect. Based off Ezekiel, not Daniel 11.
February 17th, 2009 at 8:24 pm
norma,
Spot on! Took the words right out of my mouth. Like I said, this happens when we try to fit history to events that are yet future. One more thing, none of those kings in the past were killed in Jerusalem/Temple Mount.
Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
Another translation says “… upon a glorious and holy mountain: and he shall come even to the top thereof, and none shall help him”. What top thereof? The Temple Mount! Check out this translation:
Daniel 9:27 “… And one who causes desolation will come upon the pinnacle of the abominable temple , until the end that is decreed is poured out on the desolated city”
Other translations have the word ‘temple’ in plural, ‘abominable temples’. So, the Abomination of Desolation is “one who desolates” (the AC) setting himself up on the Temple Mount in/near the “abominable temples/shrines” (the 2 mosques, by the way the Dome of the Rock was built by the Umayyads under the Umayyad Caliphate based in Syria).
Contrary to common belief, YHWH will not allow Apostate Judah (present day Israel) to build a temple that He destroyed in 70 AD, it does not make sense! Many say, well, it will not be a blessed or godly temple, but still supposedly the AC will desecrate it. How can the AC desecrate a temple that is not blessed/godly and why would God allow it? Nonsense!
This is from http://www.templemountfaithful.org/pass1.htm “This sacrifice can be performed even before the Temple is built, just on an altar on the Temple Mount”, “This will be done on an altar which is already ready”, “It is only on the Temple mount that sacrifice can be performed on an altar. We hope that the Israeli government will at least grant us the permission to perform the sacrifice in this place”.
This is what Daniel is talking about, the AC will stop/forbid this altar/sacrifice on the Temple Mount, prohibiting Apostate Judah from building a temple.
Shalom
February 17th, 2009 at 8:34 pm
good4u,
Regarding Ezekiel’s “far north”. It is the phrase “y’rekah tsaphon” which means “the northern part, part/quarter of the north” and in different translations is rendered “far north, remote parts of the north, distant north”. Syria’s capital “Damascus”, literally means “to the north, northern, land to the north”.
February 17th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
Jim,
I generally do not get into the rapture issue too heavily. I believe that we are raptured when Christ returns. I also believe that the bowls are poured out after that time. Christ is on the earth, judging the nations as his Wrath is being poured out. We are also with Him, in glorified bodies during this time. But again, this is not my main focus.
Regarding Gog, it is so abundantly clear that he and the AC are one and the same. Of course, Satan is integrally part of that equation as Satan and the AC are often spoken of almost interchangeably. (Isaiah 17 for instance) But looking at the verses that you highlighted, some have tried to make a distinction between Gog (who is said to be buried) and the AC (who is said to be thrown into hell. Personally, I see no contradiction in these two descriptions. First, of all, what exactly does it mean to be thrown alive into hell? In what sense? In my estimation, this seeming contradiction should be understood in light of what Christ said, to the effect that we should not be afraid of those who can kill the body, but Him who can kill the soul in Hell. Likewise, the AC will be physically killed and his soul will be thrown alive in hell to suffer conscious torments. When assessing the destruction of the AC, we must also consider (Lucky #) Daniel 7:11 “I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire.” as well as 2 Thess 2:8 “And then shall the Lawless One be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming” So there is no reason to see the AC and Gog as being different, at least not because of their deaths. There are a few descriptions of the AC and his destruction, and it is clear that he will not go to hell without also being physically slain first. On this issues, Gog and the AC are identical. But I would say that the efforts of the European camp to cast Gog and the AC is one of the biggest and most obvious errors.
Thanks for checking in. Stay in touch. May the Lord Bless You! Joel
February 17th, 2009 at 8:44 pm
Jim Coburn,
haSatan does not “enter the AC”. There are 4 distinct entities, haSatan, his fallen angels, AC and FP. They each have their own vessel. haSatan is not a “wind”, just because you can’t see him, it doesn’t mean he has no vessel/body.
February 17th, 2009 at 8:52 pm
Larry,
Technically, Damascus does not mean North. It means “silent is the sack-clothe weaver” or so does Strongs state it. It is As-Sham (Arabic) that means the North. Damascus is a translated and shortened version of that.
Also, remember that Syria today is not the Syria of Biblical times. It was much larger then. We need to be careful of equating modern Syria with ancient Syria. I always need to remind folks that the Biblical / Syrian AC allows for a Turkish AC. The two positions are not at all in opposition. Seleucid Empire:
http://tinyurl.com/bfo2ox
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Seleucid_persia_map.PNG
http://www.preceptaustin.org/SeleucidEmpire198BCE.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Seleucid-Empire_200bc.jpg
What would you say Scripturally makes you the most confident that Bashir Assad is the Ac as opposed to someone that will come after him?
February 17th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
Which is what Augustus did, he made his HQ in Israel, after the invasion of Egypt. When it comes to prophecy, a phrase can have years in between them.
The passage does not say he will come to his end on the temple mount, it just says that his end will come and no one will help him.
Again, when Augustus died, he died alone, no one would help him, there were forces already undermining him to seize control of his power. There are some rumors, that Augustus was poisoned some how, though I am not sure.
He died in Italy.
August was the Caesar that was living when Christ was born. Again, showing that Daniel believed the end would happen around the time of Augustus.
The entire chapter, taken verse by verse follows a timeline from the split of the Macedonian Empire to the fall of Antiochus to the Maccabean period, to the rise of King Herod and the Prophecy of Augustus invading Egypt.
Which is why, they were looking for a military messiah, because they believed that at that time, the Messiah would deliver them, why Paul believed the end was near and the return of Christ would happen in his life time. Daniel 11 being fulfilled prior to the first century, would explain why they believed that Christ was not the Messiah they were looking for.
By making this future, it creates an event, that will not happen.
February 17th, 2009 at 9:13 pm
Joel,
I never said Damascus means North. What I meant was that “Ash-Sham” which IS Damascus means “to the north, northern”. From Wikipedia, in Arabic, the city is called دمشق الشام (Dimashq ash-Shām), although this is often shortened to either Dimashq or ash-Shām by the citizens of Damascus, of Syria and other Arab neighbors. Ash-Shām is an Arabic term for north and for Syria (Syria—particularly historical Greater Syria—is called Bilād ash-Shām—بلاد الشام, “land of the north”—in Arabic, or “land of Shem (son of Noah)”—in Arabic, but with Shem being from the native Syriac language).
Bashar Assad like his father, one of their dreams has always been to reinstate Greater Syria, actually many maps in Syria refer to it as Greater Syria. I already gave countless reasons on this forum why the AC is NOT from Turkey and CANNOT be. I think we’re moving beyond disagreement here to disregarding\covering up evidence.
It’s mainly about Damascus here, Damascus is the one that will be wiped out, not Instanbul or Ankara, offered as a sacrifice, so that the world will again condemn the “Zionist Entity”, Bashar Assad actually years ago removed the country’s archives from Damascus, he knows Israel will nuke it soon.
Shalom
February 17th, 2009 at 10:29 pm
Thanks, Joel for coming to my rescue! I needed someone more knowledgeable than myself to respond, I am not up on Greek, Hebrew or Arabic as I did not get into Seminary or Dallas Theological as of yet!
The Damsel in Distress…
February 17th, 2009 at 10:44 pm
As far as i am concern, we are having a conversation based on different meanings of a text. I am not covering up anything or dismissing anything. My reasoning is logical and the history is correct.
Just because we disagree with you, does not mean we are not listening to what your saying, I kind of get the feeling that it is more reversed, you are covering up what we say, so it does not “mess” up your belief.
If someone can prove that vs 40ff is future, than present an argument that will convince me wrong. So far, all I have seen here is what I have been told over ad nausem over again. There is nothing new that can be stated on what vs 40ff can be, either it is future or it is past. And the future argument is the same, no matter who presents it.
There is a reason that the Jews expected their messiah to arrive at the time of Jesus and for him to be a military messiah, and for Paul to expect the return of Christ to happen in his life. And the major prophecies stem from Daniel. Which means, the prophecies of Daniel that we take to be future, i.e. Daniel 11, must be a past event.
The passages can not be our future, but our past. It was their present. This explains their attitude. Unless, you or someone else can show me otherwise, my view is logical.
February 18th, 2009 at 2:17 am
Paul Evans,
Messiah came AFTER Antiochus and still says “when you see (future from Him) the abomination of desolation (singular)” rendering it an impossibility for it to refer to Antiochus or other kings in the past. In fact some atheists use this mockingly to say that Yeshua didn’t even know Daniel that the “abomination” happened in the past, before Him, or did He?!
Without a doubt Yeshua understood Daniel (and other prophets) that the end times were FUTURE from Him (Daniel 12 which IS LINKED with the end of 11).
Shalom
February 18th, 2009 at 2:44 am
Dear Brethren, shalom,
Interesting discussions going on!
Larry, you write the following:
“So i am not looking for a “man of peace” or a seven year treaty, or some world religion, ect. But I see a time period that is 3 1/2 years, no peace treaty, a reformation of the Ottoman Empire or something similar. I see an alliance of Iran, Turkey, Sudan, Libya, ect. Based off Ezekiel, not Daniel 11.”
Can you please further explain why you discard both the man of peace and the seven year treaty?
Aren’t there some strong Scriptures both in the Tanach and in the Brit Hadassah supporting a 7 year time period/peace treaty (that will be broken half way through by the antichrist) before the return of Mashiah?
I would be interested to review the evidences you put forward…Especially as things are unfolding right now in the world.
I personally think there is a strong possibility to see the return of our King in 2015! I do not know if you are familiar with the signs in the sky that are going to happen then?
Here’s a recap…
Joel 2:31 “The sun shall be turned into darkness [total solar eclipse], and the moon into blood [moon eclipse], before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.”
The first sign is a red moon on Passover 2014.
The second sign is another red moon on Sukkoth 2014.
Then on the first day of the biblical year in 2015, there is a total solar eclipse!
Then we have another red moon on Passover 2015…
A partial Solar eclipse on the Feast of trumpet in 2015…
And last, another red moon on Sukkoth 2015.
Knowing that there is no more tetrad (4 red moons in a row, not too sure about the spelling!) falling on the Feats for another century, the above sure indicate that something BIG is bound to happen around these dates. If it does not, then it means that things will start to happen from these above dates on…
As far as I am concern, the above clear signs are something we just cannot ignore, can we?! That’s why we need to be looking closely at how things unfold on the world scene. We also need to be prepared to rethink our scenarios.
The one that is generally agreed upon by most people is the one regarding the 7 year peace treaty.
Could it be that this 7 year peace treaty understanding is not the correct one?
If the above signs are given for us not to be in darkness (that the Day should overtake us like a thief, like Paul says!), then there is something we need to consider about this last 7 year period of time.
If 2015 is the correct return date, and if the 7 year peace treaty is the correct interpretation, then that would mean that something has been already signed or at least agreed upon behind the scene?
Is it possible?
There is also something we need to look at, which is the division of the Land. Isn’t it what provokes Abba’s anger and His judgement over the Nations?
Knowing that the division of the Land, the two States solution, is something that would be on the table at the signature of a peace treaty, I would be curious to know how do we reconcile all the above…Larry, any idea?
I would be curious to have your points of view…Joel?
Toda raba!
Greetings and blessing fromFrance,
FX
February 18th, 2009 at 4:19 am
“Paul Evans,
Messiah came AFTER Antiochus and still says “when you see (future from Him) the abomination of desolation (singular)” rendering it an impossibility for it to refer to Antiochus or other kings in the past. In fact some atheists use this mockingly to say that Yeshua didn’t even know Daniel that the “abomination” happened in the past, before Him, or did He?!”
There are two abominations of desolation. One done by Antiochus and the one mentioned by Christ. The one mentioned by Christ is Daniel 12, not Daniel 11.
Historical fact proves that Antiochus made the temple an abomination and it caused the Maccabean revolt. But Chap. 12 talks about one as well, which would be future.
February 18th, 2009 at 4:33 am
“So i am not looking for a “man of peace” or a seven year treaty, or some world religion, ect. But I see a time period that is 3 1/2 years, no peace treaty, a reformation of the Ottoman Empire or something similar. I see an alliance of Iran, Turkey, Sudan, Libya, ect. Based off Ezekiel, not Daniel 11.”
I am the one that stated that, not Larry. Also the signs you mentioned were mentioned by me in a few other post in a different topic.
The reason I do not is I take Daniel 9 to be about the Messiah. The Prince mentioned in that passage is called “The Messiah the Prince” and a few sentences later the phrase “The people of the Prince”, since there is no clause or phrase to denote a change in person, the people of the prince would be Christ. The next phrase says “will destroy the city and the sanctuary.” I believe the word Destroy is a mistranslated word, though the word can mean destroy, there is a rare use of the word being used “Abandoned”, so I read it to mean the people of the prince, will abandoned the city and the sanctuary”.
Which is what happened, the Christians abandoned the city and the sanctuary before the city was destroyed.
I also lean toward something happening in 2015, I do not know what, but it will be beneficial for Israel, every other time it has happened Israel has benefited from it, but normally a war precedes it.
Something I am sure will happen around 2012/2013, I am not sure what, but i have a sense it will cause the event that will take place around 2014/2015. If you look at that that adds up to 3 1/2 years, which is the time frame mentioned in Daniel the time and two times and half a time, and the 1260 days, ect. There is more evidence for a three and half year tribulation than a seven year, which is from one verse, but there are several mentionings of a three and a half year event taking place.
So I lean more towards that.
February 18th, 2009 at 5:42 am
Joel,
I’ve always believed in the pre-trib, and I see from above that you believe in post-trib. Do you have anything on your site here that tells about the reasons for each belief system and why you are a post-trib believer? From the reading I’ve been doing the last year or two I’ve come to believe many of the Bible’s prophecies will and are coming to be, before Jesus’ return, but I still don’t know at what point Jesus will come and/or how much time we’ll be here living through the things to come. It’s hard for me to put into words my thoughts on this.
Thank you for any response.
February 18th, 2009 at 5:49 am
Shalom Paul,
Thanks for your explanations…Sorry for having placed your sentences in Larry’s mouth!
Why are you sure something will happen around 2012/2013? What makes you believe that?
Be blessed,
FX
February 18th, 2009 at 7:02 am
Howard,
If you are interested in reading about the post-trib position, I can send you a book. Just e-mail me. Its an easy little read by a Baptist Minister Ralph Woodrow, called The Secret Rapture: Is It Scriptural? The most significant verse that folks need to look at is Rev 20:4-6:
And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus (they are Christians) and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads (alive during the tribulation) or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Notice that they go through the trib and yet this is THE FIRST RESSURRECTION. Rapture teachers are forced to say that this is the second part of the first resurrection or something like this. In all of the Bible, there is not one clear pre-trib rapture verse. 1 Thess 4 tells us that we are raptured when Christ returns. Hope that this brief commentary helps.
Bless You! Joel
February 18th, 2009 at 7:10 am
Larry LA,
I know what you believe. What I asked you was, Scripturally, what is the reason do you have to so firmly and confidently believe that Bashir Assad is the AC and not someone in the future? Declaring someone to be the AC is a huge deal. What Scriputral basis for this do you have?
February 18th, 2009 at 8:43 am
FX—viola’! You are singing my song, my French brother in the LORD! LOL
I am very much in agreement with your post! I think it is no accident that the LORD in Matt. 24 tells his disciples (and ultimately us now) to understand that the tetrad (4 red moons) are the definitive signs of his return! In addition, it is also no accident that these cosmic “signs” are available for public inspection. As you said there are no more tetrads in this century! I was hinting at this with Joel and using the Jewish fall festivals to prove these cosmic signs as “markers” not only for Jews, but also for the Body of Christ!
You are right on brother FX! Joel, do you know about this? It is all over the eschatology boards and is well disemenated by prophecy students who stay connected. There is a guy (pastor) who first discovered it–I will have to track it down from the other board if you want it. Let me know.
February 18th, 2009 at 9:03 am
Yes, I have watched all of the Videos. Interesting stuff. But if there is not a comprehensive Peace treaty within a few months, then that whole thing seems to be past.
February 18th, 2009 at 9:15 am
FX, now you have me pondering something…Joel, way in if you wish…
Because of this severe, global economic crisis we are in, the world is suffering immensely and deeply. Jobs are lost, ppl losing homes, ppl looking to gov’t for assistance to help them and worldwide, etc. Could it be the the 1st horse and rider of the apocalypse has been somehow released? Especially, in light of the public info on cosmic signs of the tetrad and the date of 2015? Now I am publically specualting…I am merely a prophecy student of only 30 yrs…so what do I know. But it is worth a closer look with prophectic Scripture to rule out one way or the other.
Does this peace treaty have to be public news? Yes, it is hard for Israel to do anything secretly and it not be worldwide reported somehow. But if conditions are worsening, then maybe, just maybe…we need to continue to watch closely…
February 18th, 2009 at 9:27 am
But Joel, that is just it! I said in one of my prior posts that the fall Jewish festivals where the high holy days I watch every year. Why? Because it may be for some land-for-peace treaty to be signed. Fall is not here yet! Maybe, just maybe…we must continue to watch and pray…you make be to quick to be dismissive here, my brother. We will just have to wait and see what God in his sovereignty will allow.
Remember, Jesus in his first coming fullfilled completely the spring festivals. He must return to fill precisely the fall Jewish festivals as prescribed by Jewish law. I am singing tothe choir, you know this…
February 18th, 2009 at 11:12 am
Paul Evens said:“So i am not looking for a “man of peace” or a seven year treaty, or some world religion, ect. But I see a time period that is 3 1/2 years, no peace treaty, a reformation of the Ottoman Empire or something similar. I see an alliance of Iran, Turkey, Sudan, Libya, ect. Based off Ezekiel, not Daniel 11.”
I agree Paul, in that I am not lookng for a 7 year pease treaty but am looking for there to be 3 1/2 years as shown to us in Revelation but I base it on Eze and also Dan 11 and 12.
as both speaking of the revived empire or 8th head.
The preterits had one thing right.
but I am not a preterits.
I see Dan 11 as speaking of the same four empire that God gives us a view of in the statue dream, and the 4 beast vision and the Ram a Goat vision. He is always speaking of just 4 empires that originate in the middle east. Each of these visions gives us more detail about these empires. Where the Ram and Goat vision tells us more about Media-Persia and Greece and the splitting up of Greece into 4 kingdoms, Daniel 11 shows just two of those 4 kingdoms of the Grecian Empire. But then goes on to give details of the 4th and final Empire (4th beast) that will originate in the Middle East. The last one will occupy the lands of Nebuchudnezzar’s Babylonian empire, and the lands of Media Persia and all the lands conquered by it, and all the lands of the Grecian Empire that were in the Middle East. Rome didn’t do this but Islam did. They still occupy those same lands to this day.
To me this means that not only is Dan 11 a view of the remaining Media Persian kings and a view of two of the kingdoms of the Grecian empire but also, beginning at verse 31, a view of the 4th beast of Islam. So when reaching vrs 40 one can see the rise of the revived 4th empire or 8th head. A revived Islamic Empire. I don’t believe it will rise up out of Turkey but will rise up out of old Assyria. Not to make a peace agreement with Israel but to make war and to conquer.
In Dan 11 it makes it clear that this new leader that will rise up must first reconquer Islamic countries to build up his forces. Much like Salidin did. Egypt must be taken as we see in Eze 38. Egypt is to pro-west and has a peace agreement with Israel. So it’s government must fall to make that agreement null and void.
When all this is accomplished then they will take Israel. And then the Lord will return and the resurrection of the dead spoken in Dan 12 will take place.
God bless
Norma
February 18th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Bonjour Good4U!
Merci!!
Oui, it’s going to be very interesting to see what happens and how things are going to unfold in the future!
Mark Blitz of El Shaddai Ministry is the one who discovered these signs. He has some excellent teachings on his site at http://www.elshaddaiministries.us/
Joel do you think there is a possibility that the way we interpret the 7 year peace treaty, may not take place as we expect it?
Is it possible that we will only be able to clearly identify the last 3,5 years and not the last 7 years?
What if, if we are waiting for a clear 7 years sign, and when the peace agreement is actually signed, there is no mention of a timescale of 7 years?
Maybe we are going to think, well, after all, it is not that one! Maybe next one!
Is it possible that something was signed behind the scenes, or at least agreed upon, in 2007 during the September/October Annapolis talks or last October?
I don’t know if you noticed, but there’s been peace talks going on, especially during the fall Feasts…Could it be that the main thing that was secretly agreed was the birth of a Palestinian State within the next couple of years?
This would actually materialise in the forthcoming peace treaty where the Land will be divided….
The above questions are for us to ponder!
I wish I had the answers but I don’t!
What do you guys think?
May Yahweh bless and enlighten us.
FX
February 18th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Another person who might be interested in a debate is Perry Stone, if he has space in his schedule.
February 18th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
After EXTENSIVE study years ago into the rapture timing question I have concluded that the rapture in indeed post-trib as well. When I was pre-trib I would always say “Keep looking up!”, a direct reference to Luke 21:28 which reads, “So when all these things begin to happen, stand straight and look up, for your salvation is near”. Many prophecy teachers acknowledge that Luke is directed at Christians (and presume, due to their pre-trib position, that Matthew must be directed at Jews only). But, if you look at the immediate context of Luke 21 notice something specific here. Luke 21:20,25-28 says, “But when you see Jerusalem SURROUNDED by armies, then know that its desolation is near… And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now WHEN THESE THINGS BEGIN TO HAPPEN, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws NEAR.”
Notice the cosmic signs in Luke 21:25. When does this happen?
Matthew 24:29-30, “IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory”
And when is Jerusalem surrounded by armies? Hint: Check out Zechariah. This is a reference to Armageddon.
Why quote a verse from a pre-trib perspective that is obviously in a post-trib context? Many who hold the pre-trib position quote this verse without realizing the context.
Matthew 24:33, “So you also, WHEN YOU SEE ALL THESE THINGS, know that it is NEAR–at the doors”
Looking back I misunderstood what the Day of the Lord was, thinking that this was the whole “seven year tribulation” during which time God pours out His wrath, when Scripture makes it clear the Day of the Lord is not until Armageddon. Joel 3:14-15, “Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is NEAR in the valley of decision. The sun and moon will grow dark, And the stars will diminish their brightness.” The New Testament calls this day a day of “wrath,” a day of “visitation,” and the “great day of God Almighty” (Revelation 16:14). So, when the pre-trib position claims that Christians are not appointed unto wrath, which is correct, the mistake the pre-trib position makes is by also claiming that the whole seven year tribulation is when God’s wrath is poured out. The Bible makes it clear however that the Day of His wrath does not come until Armageddon, which is the end of the tribulation. Sound hermeneutics does wonders in helping us to understand Scripture.
February 18th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Peter,
Perry is actually somewhat on board the ME paradigm. In fact he wrote a book about it a few years back.
FX,
I am very open to it lookingdifferent than we expect. However, a secret peace treaty… one would have to wonder whay seven eyars was even mentioned in Scripture. I tend to believe that these things are there for us. But I always try to be humble and flexible on the finer details.
February 18th, 2009 at 6:44 pm
Joel has a point, FX. Why would the LORD reveal it to be 7 yrs and besides this, it MUST BE seven years to fulfill the 70 weeks decreed for Daniel’s ppl–to finish the transgressions against the LORD as told by the angel to Daniel. So—where does that leave us…oh and please speak French to me…I can’t get enough! LOL
February 18th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
FX said: “I don’t know if you noticed, but there’s been peace talks going on, especially during the fall Feasts…Could it be that the main thing that was secretly agreed was the birth of a Palestinian State within the next couple of years?”
This is EXACTLY what I was trying to tell Joel! The fall feast have everything to do with End-Times, but Joel knows this. He is just being, shall I say…ummm…I love you Joel…cautious? Yeah, that’s a good diplomatic word! I don’t know if the parties could be keep this secret for so long, however. So I don’t think it has happened and maybe never. But the trend is there for this treaty to come about, I believe soon. And as Joel points out it has to be “months” for the tetrad moons to be a plausible scenerio. Depending upon the outcome of who the Israeli PM will be, that maybe the missing piece to this puzzle. Time will tell if you and I are right or wrong.
February 18th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
One more little thing, feast is translated from the Hebrew word “moed”, which means appointment. Does the LORD have an “appointment” to keep with the nation Israel and also the nations who trouble her? I can’t help but remember your words Joel from the conference…the Bible is written by ME authors who play on words and layer their ME thoughts. It is not linear western thought and the western church may miss it as you rightly point out.
February 18th, 2009 at 7:50 pm
Good4U, FX
I watched the videos and thought they were quite impressive last year in August-ish. The problem that I am highlighting is the eclipses largely fall on the Feasts in 2015. That would mean that this past fall - seven years back from 2015 - would have had to have been the beginning of the seven years. But they came and went and there was no events that we could point to, so I am I think rightfully cautious. That said, there is enough swirl right now with regard to various peace plans that if one took place very soon, I would certainly reconsider. But the time is quickly passing for Biltz’s suggestion to really have any validity. Unless as FX suggested that we are missing something in our perspective. One thing about the end times is that in 1972 when folks were reading Hal Lindsey’s books, they were so convinced that it was only year away that many never got real jobs etc. The years have a way of slipping by quickly. I am sure that at any time, the Lord could put things in place and we could be there, but I also think that caution is a good approach until we see something a bit more concrete. This isn’t being skeptical at all, just cautious an patient.
Bless ya! Joel
February 18th, 2009 at 9:35 pm
I did not quiote this in the conference, but He does certainly have an appointed time for His sacrifice.
My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; see, it descends in judgment on Edom, the people I have totally destroyed. The sword of Yahweh is bathed in blood, it is covered with fat—the blood of lambs and goats, fat from the kidneys of rams. For Yahweh has a sacrifice in Bozrah and a great slaughter in Edom… Their land will be drenched with blood, and the dust will be soaked with fat. For Yahweh has a day of vengeance, a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s legal cause. Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch, her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch! (Isaiah 34:3-9)
February 18th, 2009 at 10:15 pm
Hi Joel
Now this is where a person needs to really be open because if those of us that believe Dan 9 is not speaking of an antichrist making a 7 year agreement are right then it could easily be in 2014-15.
Since the only requirement of time would be 3 1/2 years.
God bless
February 18th, 2009 at 10:39 pm
Hi Norma,
I know that there are some who do not believe that Daniel 9 is referring to a seven year period, but I do very strongly lean that way. Otherwise, it is Jesus who is responsible for the abomination that causes desolation. Do a study on ceasing of offerins and abomination in the Book of Daniel. It is always with reference to the AC. Also, we have other OT foreshadows, such as Joseph and the seven years etc. But again, I am cautiously open.
February 18th, 2009 at 10:52 pm
As long as people are cautiously open then they won’t miss something if it disagrees with their theory. I have studied it extensively….but in no way does it mean that Jesus is responsible for the abomination. Not sure how you would get that out of what it says.
Someday, if things go more the way I see things then we’ll have to discuss this further, if there is suddenly a 7 year peace agreement made then I can just go back to my old belief with the AC as making it. In other words I fully understand both theories. I think that is a good idea. hint hint.
God bless
Norma
February 18th, 2009 at 10:58 pm
I am so glad I pegged you correctly! I knew I picked the right word!:)
Frankly, I don’t blame you one bit, you have a lot on the line; on the other hand, I, Norma and FX do not. Not to say that we know anymore than you regarding the tetrads and his glorious return. So we can eschatologically and with wild abandon—roll the “spiritual” dice! If we win, you each send us a bouquet of roses. France is a long way, but go FTD.com! I look forward to seeing those roses, Joel! I’ll give you my addy in an email, of course. Or if I have to have a consolation prize, you back to speak in my hometown soon!
Good night!
February 18th, 2009 at 10:59 pm
Here we go again. Let’s start with the name of the President of Syria, Bashar Al-Assad. He is from the Al-Wahash=The Beast (in Arabic) family line (Revelation 13-17,19,20-the Beast). Al-Assad means The Lion (Revelation-mouth of a Lion, Joel 1-teeth of a lion).
Bashar means Giver of Good News in Arabic, also the root letters B-S-R are the same as for the Hebrew word for Gospel-Besorah. He has eyes like human eyes (Daniel 7:8,20). I explained that the phrase can also be translated has eyes or understanding of/about human eyes (Septuagint also supports this). Bashar Assad is an Ophthalmologist or Eye Doctor, he has understanding, knowledge of/about human eyes. In fact “ayin” the Aramaic word for “eye” also means “knowledge, understanding, insight”.
He is more imposing or greater in appearance than the others or than his fellows/associates/peers/counterparts (Daniel 7:20). Bashar Assad is 6′3 and I have countless pictures of him “hovering” above all the foreign and domestic dignitaries that visit him.
In Ezekiel 28 the AC is the Prince (or ruler) of Tyre which is in Lebanon, Bashar Assad’s puppet. Not to mention all the links I’ve posted in this forum that prove beyond the reason of a doubt that he pulls the strings/controls the dogs in the Middle East, neither Iran nor Turkey. Iran and Turkey submit to him. I could go on like this everyday to show you Middle Eastern News links that prove this.
Check out this Bible Translation, the Good News Translation:
Daniel 11:40 When the king of Syria’s final hour has almost come, the king of Egypt will attack him, and the king of Syria will fight back with all his power, using chariots, horses, and many ships. He will invade many countries, like the waters of a flood.
I don’t agree with “Egypt” there, the word is “negev” and it means Judah and only occasionally Egypt, but they understood that the King of the North is the King of Damascus/Syria. It’s interesting that the Presidential Term in Syria is 7 years (7-year Tribulation), not 4 like in the US. There’s not even time for a supposed successor to Bashar Assad. The Tribulation could even start this year and the 2nd coming (AND rapture) could happen in 2015 like FX said.
Shalom
February 18th, 2009 at 11:34 pm
Norma,
I’m in your corner on this one!
Joel, I’m happy to see the humility…Staying open is always smart!
Blessings to all
February 19th, 2009 at 12:03 am
“Christian” means “Anointed” and is not something new, supposedly created at Pentecost. The Ekklesia (church) or correctly, assembly, has always been (before Yeshua and until today) made up of a remnant within the Israelites (12 tribes) and Gentiles who attached themselves to them, thus stopping to be Gentiles (which is the word “goy” and means heathen, outsider, adulterer) and becoming Israel.
In fact Paul tells us the same thing, that we ARE Israel, blood bought, grafted it. Israel comes from 2 words, Yasher=”straight as an arrow” and El=God, so those who are straight as an arrow before God, it is not something inherited by blood or religion. There are many of the 12 Tribes who are not Israel. Actually the New Covenant (correct-renewed covenant) is made by God with the 2 houses of Israel and Judah, there are no Gentiles there. So, next time you say Gentile or Gentile Church, think about this.
Shalom
February 19th, 2009 at 12:19 am
The word Feast is the word “moed” and it means appointment, rehearsal and watch this… assembly (church)! God has these appointments, rehearsals and He assembles only with His children, NOT with the nations (gentiles, heathen). His children who recognize that Torah is not done away with, His children who obey the Torah out of love and not with a spirit of malice or self righteousness. They obey His teachings and instructions and assemble themselves before YHWH at the…, you guessed it, appointed times or “moedim”, first of them being the Shabbat, then the New Moons and the 7 Feasts.
One of the reasons Lucifer was kicked out of heaven was because he wasn’t showing up at the appointed times and guess what he does.., he doesn’t repent, instead he creates his one times, Sunday, Easter (Ishtar-fertility goddess, red eggs from the blood of sacrificed children), Christmas, etc. My prayer is that we repent/return (teshuvah) to Abba and His Torah which is the way, truth and life, like Yeshua said about Himself, He is the Word of God, the living Torah.
Shalom
February 19th, 2009 at 1:09 am
I love those verses on the Feast of YHWH. You either honor the Feasts or you WILL BE the Feast! Love it.
Sorry about the typos before, I meant “grafted IN” and “Lucifer created his OWN feasts”.
February 19th, 2009 at 2:21 am
Bonjour, Joel, Good4U, Norma, Larry and all!
“C’est bon pour toi”, parles-tu français ? (”Good for U” do you speak French?)
;-)
Joel, like you say, we have to be humble and prepared to challenge our way of thinking regarding biblical prophesy.
If Abba is clearly giving us signs in the sky for us to consider, and if they do not fit with our actual understanding, then it is interesting to look at other possibilities or interpretations of Scriptures we have always understood in one way and look if an other approach is tenable.
Like you point out regarding 2015, so far we haven’t seen any clear 7 year peace treaty. Two possible options:
1- 2015 is not the possible date for Abba’s return. The correct date will be when the peace treaty is signed + 7 years.
2- 2015 is a real contender. Dan 9 is not to be interpreted as being a 7 year end of time peace treaty.
When we look at the current situation in the ME, we clearly see that there are peace talks going on. Therefore, at first glance, we may think that the above first option is the correct one.
The world is looking at Israel and want the Israelis to sign a peace treaty (with what we know is the beast) because people think it will bring peace in the region and solve all the world problems.
Of course we know this is not true!
So the above tend to lean toward the signature of peace treaty. Will it be the 7 years one?
Isaiah 28 talks about a covenant with death, will it be that one?
Now we know ha satan is very clever and knows the bible very well. Could it be that he is playing around with us to make us believe that the peace treaty to come is the 7 year one, knowing there is no such thing?
We may be caught off guard if he coax us into believing something which is not the correct interpretation!
That’s why I am very interested to hear what Norma has to say about the issue of Dan 9.
Norma, can you please explain to us what your approach is and how do you reconcile with what Joel brought up regarding Yeshua being responsible for the abomination?
Also what do you make of the actual peace treaty talks which are very real?
Thank you in advance for your insights.
Shalom, shalom
FX
February 19th, 2009 at 7:47 am
FX,
The primary Biblical basis for the notion that the AC will sign a seven year peace treaty is Daniel 9. He will confirm a covenant for one shabuwa (seven). Isaiah’s reference to the covenant with death is confirmatory that there will be a covenant. Also, if there is no seven years peace treaty, then Israel would not be just before the Abomination that Causes Desolation living securely in her land as a few verses state that she will be. Elsewhere in the Scriptures, in the OT, we see foreshadows of the seven years. As I mentioned, in Joseph’s seven years and his preparations, in Jacob’s seven years, working for the Beloved that he longed for. But these are hints and not proofs. Another option that you did not mention is that the seven years is not precisely seven years. There is some evidence of this in verses such as “unless those days had been shortened for the sake of the elect…” You do not know the day or the hour, etc. So it could be that the Peace Treaty will be signed soon, as in this Spring. This wouls still allow for the timeframe in my opinion. If however, after this Spring, we still see nothing, then I would simply tend to see the eclipses of 2015 as some other sign, perhaps pointing us to 2022. But I am simply not willing to say that “this is that” based on the eclipses alone.
Shalom, Joel
February 19th, 2009 at 8:15 am
Larry,
If we stop being Gentiles, then why do the Apostles / the Scriptures never stop calling us Gentiles even after we have become believers? Why is there not a single verse that says that someone is a former Gentile? They always continue calling Gentiles Gentiles. Its just that in Christ, it no longer matters, Gentile, Jew, Man, Women, Rich, Poor, Slave, Free, it no longer matters. But men do not cease being men nor women cease being women, nor do gentiles cease being Gentiles. We become children of Abraham, children of faith, co-heirs of the promises, grafted into Messiah, but no where do the Scriptures ever says that we stop being Gentiles. It always continues to call gentiles gentiles, even after we get saved.
Romans: 16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.
Acts 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Etc etc etc…
As far as Scot’s witty cliche’ about observing the feats or becoming a feast; do you really believe that if someone does not honor the feasts, that God will kill them and feed them to the beasts? Or is it more appropriate to say that if does not get on the invitation list of the Wedding Feast that they risk becoming a feast for the beasts? I can go with that, but the idea that those who do not celebrate the feasts will be killed by God finds no basis in the Scriptures. Those who are eaten are those who attack Israel, not Christians who do not observe the feasts.
Assad: okay, I fully understand your various reasons for looking to Syria, and agree with most of this, but as far confidently declaring Bashir specifically to be the AC, to me this is a big deal. So do I understand you correctly that your primary basis for believing this is because he is a very tall former Opthamologist? Do you believe that the verse in Daniel that states that the Horn has the “eyes like the eyes of a man” is actually in its primary meaning saying that he will have insight into eyeballs or do you see this as more of a secondary word-play hint?
February 19th, 2009 at 9:45 am
FX–
Sadly, no misseur, I do not really “parles-tu français?” But I “amour” it! Yours is the most romantic language on earth, it is beautiful to listen to(and read) and I am envious that you are its native! Besides, as a “cowgirl” American who lives in the midwest, conversational French just basically hurts my throat! *sigh*
Nevertheless, WE are part of the universal church and we will “amour” each other in the LORD! And vigorously discuss in “amour” our eschatological passions, oui? Amen? (Tell me in English what you said in the first part of your sentence, I knew the last part already.) Luv u!
Joel makes a very good case for his point, IMO, FX. Tho’ Daniel’s 70th week will not be a complete seven year period, it will be the vast majority of it. Again, Joel is correct as different prophets speak directly to this coming 7-yr treaty w/AC and thus warn Israel not to sign it confirming God’s foreknowledge by different servants. I will stretch the time out a bit longer than Joel to the fall feasts, but not any longer than that.
Now, God as transcendent Creator does not have to use 2014/15 and can supernationally have such eclipses take place w/o warning. But I don’t think this would be consistent with his Word and believers would be with out “cosmic signs” and it truly his arrival would be “unexpected.” Is that what the LORD meant? Pray it isn’t so!
Joel has warned not to be too myopic in our escahtological thinking. I think he is right. We must take all eschatological signs together and they must “align” to have confirmation thru his Word. We are frankly, not there yet.
I too would like to hear Norma’s take on Daniel 9 and why it differs with Joel’s. Norma?
February 19th, 2009 at 11:28 am
I am having trouble posting again.
February 19th, 2009 at 11:46 am
Shalom Joel,
Thanks for your insights !
I personally doubt we will see something move on the peace treaty front as soon as this Spring. If Bib is elected, then we may not see any peace treaty at all in the foreseeable future! He is not dumb! He knows Muslims very well and won’t give them what they want!
Now if Tsipi is elected, then the scenario could be different. She will be more inclined to submit to the new US administration and give away what the Arabs want.
Let’s wait and see what the future brings. We’re living in exciting times, that’s for sure!!
Greetings and blessings,
FX
February 19th, 2009 at 11:49 am
Is it because I am putting a link in my post?
February 19th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
Okay, this is important and why I am posting again. FOXNEWS ticker just said that Liberman’s 3rd place political party has endorsed Bi Bi Netanyahu (sp?) officially as PM. BUT, he cautions that we must have a “wide, inclusive government” meaning Zippy’s slight majority. So, Joel, we were wrong for the most part (re who would be PM) and where does that leave us, eschatologically? Your thoughts, kind sir?
February 19th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Norma,
Posting issues. hmmmm? Do you have DSL? Or broadband? That may be culprit, but I am speculating.
February 19th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
Hi FX
The prophecy is about the coming Messiah, and what He will do when He arrives, and what will happen as a result of the Jewish nations rejection of Him.
All of the perimeters are set in the first verse of the this prophecy. It is 70 weeks appointed for Daniel’s people only.
Daniel 9, Verse 24
Seventy weeks are determined *upon thy people and upon thy holy city,*
to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”
In hindsight we know this means they have 70 weeks to accept their Messiah as the Son of God since these things can not be accomplished accept through belief in Jesus.
Jesus was “cut off” during the 70th week and not before that time.
*Daniel 9 Verse 25
Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times
Verse 26; And *after* threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,”
Notice that it says AFTER the 69th week. Not before, or on the last day of the 69th week, but after it is over, which puts His being “cut off” as taking place during the 70th week.
Some believe that the final 70th week is left till the end days, but Jesus already used a portion of it because He was cut off during the 70th week.
Jesus came to make a covenant. That was and is His purpose. He did so for the first 3 1/2 years of the final week of this prophecy as He taught his new covenant to the Jewish people.
The Jews as a nation only had one week to accept this covenant, because they had only been given 70 weeks to do so.
His death caused the sacrifices to cease as in that they were no longer accepted by God. They had been replaced by His blood as the last sacrifice in this age that God would accept.
For any Jewish person that accepts Jesus now, they are under His grace. He has put an end to believers sins through His blood. He has atoned for their wickedness before the throne. He has for them everlasting righteousness. But this prophecy was for the nation as a whole and they didn’t accept Him.
What would be the result of their rejection of Him?
They rejected Him and the covenant He offered. So when their abominations reached their higist point, the destruction would come on their Holy Place and Holy City to a complete destruction, as spoken of in the pervious verse.
.
Daniel 9 Verse 27 continues;
*and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
.
The Hebrew word that is translated as “overspreading” is the Hebrew word meaning “Wing’ sometimes translated as the “pinnacle of the temple” It all starts with the word wing. Which is a reference to feathers, which the Hebrews are to cut the “corners” of their robes in fringes like that of a wing. So then the word took on the meaning of a “corner” Hence the corner of the of the walls of the temple compound became known as a wing of the temple. The corners were the pinnacles, or highest places. Probably because that is where the towers were located and because they were built to the edges of the mountain and so were built over the valleys. The pinnacle of the temple was the highest wall of the temple compound.
————————————–
As a side note; The word pinnacle (pterygion-Greek) also means wing. The wing or pinnacle is the highest part of the temple compound looming over the valleys below.
“pterygion”
1) a wing, a little wing
2) any pointed extremity
a) of fins of fishes
b) of part of a dress hanging down in the form of a wing
c) of the top of the temple at Jerusalem
Mat 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle (or a wing) of the temple,
So what this verse in Daniel is saying is that at the pinnacle of abominations, one will come and make it desolate until a complete destruction. Which is a reference to the previous verse that speaks of the complete destruction of the Temple and the Holy city at the hand of the people of the prince who would come. This took place in 70 AD.
After His death and resurrection the nation of Israel did not repent, and because of this their abominations reached its pinnacle, their highest point. So the Lord allowed it to be made desolate (Temple and city).
Jesus had told them;
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.”
This destruction to a complete desolation took place within 40 years after His death and resurrection fulfilling the prophecy.
As for the closeness of a peace agreement. It has been close many times since Oslo. That is nothing new.
It’s a good start to understanding this theory better.
God bless,
Norma
February 19th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Norma,
The above explanation is a relatively new understanding for me. When I
was first introduced to this “theory”, I knew immediately that It felt so true.
My objection to many interpretations is always rooted in the lack of respect and importance given to the “CROSS”.
What Jesus accomplished can’t be over emphasized or diminished.
To many, all prophecy seems to revolve around the “coming of the AC”!
…This seems to cheapen the “Good News” of Jesus and his Life/Death/Resurrection.
This is why a “rebuilt Temple” is so unbelievable to me personally. Yes,
I know several “church Fathers” taught this, but they were men and
their writings were not Canon. (these same fathers have been proven
wrong in other areas)
The destruction of the Temple was huge! The tearing of the curtain was
enormous in symbolism! ….Jesus was to rebuild this Temple in 3 days!
(all spiritual)
We are the stones of this rebuilt Temple…Jesus is the corner stone!
The standing Temple was destroyed by Jesus BEFORE the Romans finished it off with literal fire.
Why are we looking for another Temple?
Could this be the deception? Is this Satan’s way of diminishing the work
of Jesus?
February 19th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Hi Nancy
Yes, I am afraid I wince sometimes when people take away from these verses about the work of Jesus.
I am not really looking for the Temple to be rebuilt. I have a webpage about the location of the old temples and if they have to build it on the same exact spot then I don’t see how that will be possible since the original threshing floor of David is about 40 feet under the Al Aksa mosque. I also can’t envision the Israeli govenrment ever pushing for the rebuilding of the Temple since they would have to give control of Israel over to the Sanheadrin and Temple Law.
Whether or not the temple mount faithfull will be able to set up a portable altar and do sacrifices, minus a temple, will remain to be seen. I doubt it since the Israeli government won’t even let them get near the place for fear they start a riot.
If a peace agreement were to finally take place it won’t include the right for Jews to rebuild a Temple on the Mount. That is a pipe dream. For one thing, that would cause war not peace. secondly, when push comes to shove the Jews are unable to prove the location of the old Temples and can’t build until they do. I am sure that the Arabs will not allow the removale of the Dome of the Rock or Al Aksa mosque in any peace agreement. Jews aren’t even allowed to move their lips in prayer if they are allowed to go up on the mount now. Let’s be real.
Anyway, we seem to agree on alot.
February 19th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
My guess that it would go to Zippy was only rooted in my cynicism of late. I have no idea what will happen now. As I often say, I am not that kind of prophet.
February 19th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
And Joel, apparently neither am I so you have more than enough company!
February 19th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
Hi good4u
I have broadband. Does that mean I can’t place links in my posts because there is a confilict?
Thanks,
February 19th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Joel, you are our resident “expert” here (for lack of a better word) or maybe FX can do this…I am seeing “red flags” in Norma’s “theory” God bless her. I think she is a bit “off” in her understanding of the calculations of the 70 weeks of Daniel. *Sigh* this is my weakness…I am not swift at explaining this well because I am math-challenged as a female. Ugh!
I have heard it taught differently and it made sense as to why there is a full “week” (i.e., seven years) outstanding that God will again deal directly w/Israel. I don’t wanna confuse her w/my “wobbly” explanation.
But, Norma, it is something along the lines that the Passion week of Jesus at the time of his crucifiction COMPLETED the 69th week. That is when God’s prophectic clock stopped for the Jews. The 70th week was not even entered into at that time. (I’m not explaining this very well, Joel…) and why there will be nearly a full seven years that God will again deal directly w/Israel. Not a mere 3 1/2 years as you supose Norma. I know, I know you are gonna have questions…Joel can you help her? I prolly just made it worse for poor Norma and Nancy.
Joel, they may still disagree and that’s fine, but they may need a better communicator than little ole me to explain.
February 19th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
Joel,
In many cases where the word Gentile is used in the Apostolic Writings (“new testament”), it refers to the 10+2 tribes of Israel scattered among the Gentiles.
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the TWELVE TRIBES which are scattered abroad, greeting.
1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the STRANGERS [cannot refer to Gentiles] scattered throughout Pontus, GALATIA, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
So, when Paul says “church of Gentiles”, “brethren which are of the Gentiles”, etc., etc., he mainly refers to the believers AMONG the scattered tribes and secondly to American, French, etc. believers AMONG the nations. But, like I said, and you mentioned it too, one verse says “Gentile Church”, other there is no Jew or Gentile, other (and the most important) that we ARE Israel, wild branches grafted into the Olive Tree of Israel (not Messiah, Messiah is the Root). So, which one is true? All of them, the Scripture cannot contradict itself, it’s just that we have to take all of them together to get the bigger picture. Conclusion, we used to be Gentiles (heathen, pagan) by blood (and lifestyle), we still ARE American, French, etc., but most importantly, we are NOT Gentiles anymore (heathen, pagan, outsider, adulterer). Clearly the Renewed Covenant is with the 2 Houses of Israel and Judah. Sorry, you are in error for saying that “no where do the Scriptures ever says that we stop being Gentiles” and “there is not a single verse that says that someone is a former Gentile”. We cannot be part of the Renewed Covenant if we continue to be Gentiles (heathen, outsider). We have to return to Him, to stop being outsiders, and to be grafted into the Commonwealth of Israel. Israel is a concept, not a bloodline, not a nation in the sense of American, French, etc.
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time PAST Gentiles in the flesh [=FORMER GENTILE], who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Again, Paul here is talking to the 10 scattered tribes (but is also an example to us) that were given a “divorce decree” by YHWH. This “divorce decree” is the “the law of commandments“ and “handwriting of ordinances”, it is NOT talking about the Torah being nailed to the cross, it’s this decree that He nailed to the cross:
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
By the way, the Gospel, the Good News is the fact that this “divorce decree” between YHWH and the 10 tribes was abolished by Messiah’s death. In His death, He made it possible for the 10 tribes to remarry Him, because in His death, He became a new man (Torah forbids a woman to remarry the first husband). This is what Yeshua commanded the disciples to announce to the 10 tribes when He sent them forth in Matthew 10:5-7. The whole book (Bible) is about Israel (which again is a concept), we are just grafted in. When Shaul (Paul) says in Rom 11:26 “And so all Israel shall be saved”, what does he mean by that? The State of Israel, the 12 tribes, Judah, ALL Jews will be saved? Of course not, he is talking about this Remnant within the 12 tribes (and the grafted in Gentiles who become Israel), this is Israel, this is Ekklesia (the church), and of course ALL ISRAEL will be saved, ALL within this “church” will be saved.
Regarding Bashar Assad, it’s not just “tall Ophthalmologist”, it’s all the things together both me and Scot have been presenting in this forum. The phrase “eyes like human eyes” in Hebrew cannot even be translated, the translators did their best. It is “ayin ayin” or “eye eye”. The word “ayin” also means “knowledge”. Now, we logically have 5 possibilities:
1. Eye eye
2. Eye knowledge
3. Knowledge eye
4. Knowledge knowledge
5. Daniel was babbling or stuttering
The only translation that makes sense is “knowledge eye” or “knowledge about eye”. The word “like” in “eyes like human eyes” in Septuagint is “osei” and first means “about”, so “eyes about human eyes”, again “knowledge about human eyes”. Like I said, we are moving beyond disagreement, to disregarding/covering up evidence. If all the reasons I gave you (and those given in the past), don’t mean anything to you, I don’t know what will.
Regarding “Scot’s witty cliché”. I don’t see it as cliché, but I do see it as witty and scriptural. God will judge all the nations (Gentiles, heathen, pagan) that attack Israel and pour out His wrath upon ALL unbelievers. God’s Feast is also symbol about what happens to the heathen, the un-circumcised (in the heart), they become the feast. You’re so funny Joel, love you brother. I can almost see Nicodemus taking Yeshua’s words literally. The way we prove our faith is by our “walk”. If you love Me, you keep My commandments as He kept YHWH’s commandments, Torah, he fulfilled the Torah, meaning he obeyed it (perfectly), now we have to fulfill the Torah in America, France, etc. When we fall short, we have Yeshua the High Priest to mediate for us and forgive our sin. If now we don’t celebrate the moedim (moed also means rehearsal, so if we don’t rehearse now), what makes you think we will want/be able/be allowed to celebrate them then? This is why we need the Tribulation. Marriage Supper of the Lamb is not some party where we eat and drink, it is a moed that He commanded us to rehearse.
Shalom
February 19th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
Great posts everyone…love reading the various viewpoints represented here. Regarding the 7 year peace treaty, I’m not sure if anyone here is familiar with something called the European Neighborhood Policy. I read about this on another message board and was quite intrigued by it. I had never heard of it before so I did a quick google search and came up with this website which describes in detail what it is. I don’t know who Ted Montgomery is but he gives his own perspective on what it might mean if the ENP is the 7 year treaty spoken of in the Bible. I’m not saying I agree with his position on everything but just thought I’d post this for anyone who might want to read about it.
http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/Endtimes/ENP.html
February 19th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Paul Evans,
Of course there are 2 Abominations of Desolation, one by Antiochus and the last one in the future by the AC, exactly my point. But in my last post, I was talking about the “end times”. You said that the end times were until Messiah’s birth, that that was the interpretation of Daniel.
You keep mentioning that supposedly the Jews 2 thousand years ago, including Paul, understood that the end times were upon them and you present this as logical proof for your theory. Is it just me, but this is no proof whatsoever and there is nothing logical about this, like Norma said, no one knew about the 2 thousand-year “gap” and the history you present is no proof either, it’s just an attempt to fit those things into prophecy about future and nullify it in the process.
I proved to you in a very simple but truthful manner that at least one Jew, Messiah Yeshua, understood and knew that the end times were FUTURE from Him, NOT past. We should listen to Yeshua and how He interprets Daniel and prophecy in general, especially about end times. And like I said, Daniel 12 is linked to Daniel 11, you cannot separate them, unless you’re desperately trying to save a dead theory.
February 19th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
I have a cool picture of a big rally in Damascus, Syria where youths are seen carrying on their shoulders a model of the Dome of the Rock mosque (built by the Umayyad Caliphate based in Syria). On the top of the model (on the wing, pinnacle, if you will) you can see 2 pictures, one of the 1st (or 11th) Iman (a painting/drawing) and next to it, that of Bashar Assad. Even on their shawls around their necks, there are designs of the mosque.
This is what we will see soon, after Damascus is destroyed, Bashar Assad in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount being hailed by the people he helped create a state. I love this translation, it’s in the footnote of the NIV: Daniel 9:27 “And one who causes desolation [the AC] will come upon the pinnacle of the abominable temple [other translations have plural, temples, the 2 mosques on the Temple Mount] , until the end that is decreed is poured out on the desolated city”
February 19th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Joel,
I am appalled that you ban Scot for preaching the truth and don’t say (combat) anything on the Preterist ideas presented in the forum, actually in the past you praised Preterism saying that “it is a respectable position”, sad. You cannot call respectable a theory that is not scriptural, you cannot have half truths, speaking of coexistence among denominations/religions.
February 19th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Tiny mistake there again, sorry. I meant Yeshua in His death/resurrection, became a new Man.
February 19th, 2009 at 6:42 pm
Deb,
Welcome to Joel’s blog!
I wanted to tell you that yes, some of us indeed are familiar with the ENP, like myself. However, I no longer view it as a serious peace treaty specifically relating to prophectic Scripture. Basically, it doesn’t truly fit prophetic Scriptural requirements. The EU as the long-held view to be the “beast empire” is invalid. But something else is much, much closer and that is a a revival of the Islamic Empire as Joel supports. His pardigm is the closest I’ve seen to matching biblical requirements! Stick around, you will learn lots.
How’s that Joel for a commercial for your position? LOL
February 19th, 2009 at 7:19 pm
Larry,
I don’t have time to read half of the posts on here. So take a chill pill. “Partial” preterism is indeed respectable so long as one sees the ultimate fulfillment as being future. But full preterism is a heretical joke. Also, I left some questions for you several posts up.
February 19th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
Thanks for the response good4u. Contrary to popular belief, I’m not exactly a new poster here, lol. I’ve posted a couple of times before and lurk here every day so am very familiar with Joel’s position on end times eschatology and I agree with him completely! I’ve even corresponded with Joel about the possibility of him coming to my church to speak. Anyway, as I said, I had just recently heard about the ENP and even though it has to do with the EU, I thought it was still interesting to read about.
February 19th, 2009 at 9:31 pm
good4you,
“AFTER the sixty-two ’sevens,’ the Anointed One will be cut off…”
(seven ’sevens’ have preceded the sixty-two for a total of sixty-nine)
AFTER the sixty-nine…the Anointed is cut off…(not in the midst).
Are we following each other?…the Anointed is “cut off” sometime after
the sixty-nine…(into the 70th).
There is much more to the debate, but this is a tiny start. Ask yourself
if you have ever heard of or known of another example where prophecy
has a 2000 year gap between years or “WEEKS”? Is there a precedence
for this type of interpretation?
Blessings
February 19th, 2009 at 9:57 pm
“Why are you sure something will happen around 2012/2013? What makes you believe that?”
FX, Something will instigate what happens in 2014/2015. So most likely it would start around that time.
Also, there are several calenders that seem to end around 2012. What i find interesting is that many end around that time and then these events take place in 2014/2015, so something is bound to happen.
February 19th, 2009 at 10:16 pm
Larry, chill out.
Yeah, no one expected the two thousand year gap, thus the end times was expected to happen when Christ was born, which they expected to be the Messiah coming, as in what we are expecting today. They were expecting two thousand years ago.
When Christ came, he presented it as future from him. But if you read Paul’s letters carefully, he wrote of the coming of Christ as if it would happen in his lifetime.
The Jews expected Christ to be the Messiah/king who will set up his kingdom and over throw the Romans. Not the suffering servant. Thus, they expected the end to happen then.
Daniel 11 is taken to a fulfilled event, ends at the birth of Christ, thus the end would have been at that time. It was/is not a future event.
Daniel did not expect a two thousand year gap between the two chapters, he was expecting it to be fulfilled when Christ was born. So chill out if I disagree with you, I can not take anything you say seriously, because you force your belief on everyone and expect everyone to accept your view, while rejecting their own.
February 19th, 2009 at 11:03 pm
Joel,
Take a chill pill? Wow! I didn’t mean ban the Preterist, all I meant was that you should say something, discuss, combat heretical ideas. As for your questions, I think I answered them all. If there’s anything else, please let me know, this is a pretty long thread here.
Shalom
February 19th, 2009 at 11:39 pm
Okay, Nancy…I know what you are getting at. Trust me, I do. I need Joel to explain. (Joel, can you rescue me again?) Hey, maybe I am wrong. I frequently am. If I am, Joel will tell me so and I am a good teachable student. I know, you believe I support the “gap” position. I’m not sure what you call it, but the Apostle Paul revealed it in his brilliant masterpiece in the Book of Romans.
Do you do Bible study? I am a Bible teacher, not of adults [like Joel] but of older thinking children. I have done this for years and I must do diligent Bible study and God holds those who teach His Word (like Joel at the general public level and myself [at a tiny level] accountable before Himself and not many should be doing this because we both fear the LORD and greatly!) just to give you background. So both of us must study constantly God’s Word.
Have you ever read the Book of Romans? In Particular Romans 11 and this passage below as Paul is speaking:
***
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[g]
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.”
***
Tho’ the Apostle Paul does not come right out and say the “gap of time” this is exactly what has happened. Do you know what biblical hermanutics is? This is important to understand and how we have come to have the church age. It is where God in his partial judgment of his ppl Israel has set them “temporarily” aside because of their rejection of Jesus as their Messiah at his first coming. Hence, God’s direct dealings with Israel was suspended after the 69th week because “the annointed one” was cut off and had nothing according to the angel.
But wait, we still have one more week of left that God has to fulfill which is the 70th week according to the angel when he was talking to Daniel. There is no “continuation or in the midst of this last week. Why? It has not started yet.” Because God is at this time is not dealing directly w/Israel which is what the Book of Revelation main focus is, not the church, but Israel. Yes, the salvation of Israel’s remanent!
Paul is talking about this in this Roman’s passage as he looks back to the OT when he quotes about Zion, godlessness WHEN (FUTURE) the deliever (Jesus) takes away their sins. This is the 70th week which has not happened yet and you are “presuming” in error as I understand this passage. Romans is an extremely theological book and rich in Christian doctrine. It appears to me you have not studied this Roman passage, I would encourage you to do just that and you will see as the Holy Spirit gives spritual illumination when you ask it of Him.
Joel, I’m sorry, I shifted into teaching mode…and that is not what I should have been doing. But this issue seems to have needed to be addressed. If I am wrong, please tell me. I will defer to you. This is your site.
Blessings, good4u
February 19th, 2009 at 11:42 pm
Paul Evans,
Brother, sorry you feel that way. I was feeling like you’re forcing your belief on everyone. You said that your belief is logical and the history you present is true, so… no place for other theories.
I was trying to make you say, there are “2 end times”, lol, sorry. Your exact words were “the end times were until Messiah’s birth”, so that’s “1st end times”, then Yeshua speaks of the future abomination of desolation, “2nd end times”, it’s funny. Of course they didn’t know how long until the return of Messiah, 10 years, 100, 1000, but what they knew was, especially Paul (from Yeshua’s teachings), that it was future, NOT past like you said, that’s all I was trying to say.
And you are in error, the remnant (ekklesia, assembly, “church”) back then, knew and was expecting the Suffering Servant, the religious people weren’t, they were expecting the Army guy Messiah. It is the same thing today, but in reverse, the religious people teach us that the Torah (Yeshua is the Living Torah, the Word of God at Mount Sinai) is done away with and therefore we don’t have to obey it, while they accept the suffering servant (or so they think). But Yeshua is both. Isn’t history repeating itself? I love the fact that the Bible is not linear, dispensational, but cyclical.
You’re saying “Daniel 11 is taken to be a fulfilled event” (parts of it indeed are), you take it, not us. The scroll of Daniel was exactly that, a scroll, no chapters, no verses. The end of Daniel 11 is linked to chapter 12. Even so, what you’re saying about the end times and the end of Daniel 11 respectfully I say, it does not prove your theory, because you’re using as “proof” whatever you believe people thought about the end times 2 thousand years ago.
Shalom
February 19th, 2009 at 11:50 pm
Paul Evans,
One more nugget:
2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
Now this sounds like a very loooong time to me until Messiah’s return. Many probably were hoping it was gonna be in their life time, but Peter says that “the holy prophets, the apostles and our Lord and Saviour” bear testimony to this… looong time. You told me to read Paul’s letters, I chose Peter instead, but even in Paul you get this idea.
Peace to you
February 20th, 2009 at 12:06 am
Paul Evans,
Oops, forgot the last part, I’m tired:
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Again, the wording, looooongsuffering, one day like a thousand years, all should come to repentance (”all” takes a long time), etc.
February 20th, 2009 at 12:13 am
I said what i said, because it is logical and it is history, these are not false statements. If someone disagree’s that is fine with me. We all make absolute claims, at one point or another.
If two people hold two different views, it stands to reason that one of them could be wrong, or both of them being wrong. Mine is based on history and logic, again you may disagree on the logic and the history, but that is your opinion.
The way Daniel 11 was written or at least how it is transcribed today (verses and chapters), yes you are correct. It all would have “run” together. But that is my point.
They would have seen it and Daniel would have understood it as the whole thing taking place in one consecutive span of time.
Thus, if what i said is true, then it is logical to take it that the end, according to Daniel, would be when Christ was born, because it says “at the time of the end”, I and many others take it to be a fulfilled event, thus “at the time of the end” is the Reign of Caesar Augustus and the Birth of Christ. Unbeknowing to many, that 2,000 years would be inserted.
But as the first century wore on, God filled in the gaps and gave more information, both from Jesus and especially the book of Revelation. So, in a sense, I do believe there is two “end times” or better yet, the birth of Christ was the beginning of the End and time has not ended yet, so to speak.
February 20th, 2009 at 12:52 am
Paul Evans,
Daniel barely understood a few things, he keeps saying throughout his book, beyond my understanding, couldn’t understand it. You said “But as the first century wore on, God filled in the gaps and gave more information”. I wouldn’t say He filled in the gaps. Yeshua and the Apostles didn’t really say many new things, they were just explaining/expanding things already said in the Tanach (”old testament”). For example Yeshua’s Golden Rule is straight from the Torah, when Yeshua mentions the “abomination of desolation”, He just explains Daniel. Same with the teachings of the Apostles.
YHWH says, I tell the end from the beginning, what does He mean by that? That He knows the future before it happens, of course He does, but that’s not what He means. The word “beginning” is the Hebrew word “breishit” and it is the same as the name of the first book of the Bible, Genesis. So, He is saying that He tells the end from Genesis, and not just Genesis, but the whole Torah, Prophets and Writings (”old testament” which was actually the Bible, Yeshua and the Apostles didn’t have any other Bible or scrolls).
Confusion happens when we take the Bible as linear. God before Creation knew all things and revealed all things in the Bible (whatever had to be written), so we find the end times (there’s only “1 end times”) in Daniel, in other prophets, in Torah, etc.
Islam and other linear systems teach that different prophets came to show the way, to teach the truth, but basically what they’re saying is they came to replace “old” with “new”, to better ourselves, to ascend, to evolve which is exactly what haSatan has wanted and has been teaching us to do (Darwin’s Evolution actually stems from this kind of evolutionary, linear thought). There is no such thing with God. God doesn’t change, doesn’t change His word, they are perfect forever.
February 20th, 2009 at 12:53 am
Having read the entire thread to this point, one thing becomes glaringly apparent; whatever our various takes on the prophetic time-line, the date-settings, the designation of the lineage and geographical origin of the Antichrist, the differing interpretations of end times events, etc. can be overwhelming and, frankly, distracting. I love all of this conjecture, but have a strong conviction of late that my eyes should be focused on the prize. Pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, whatever! Can “we all just get along” and remember the great commission?
Thanks so much for your ministry, Joel. Just discussing these issues has ironically relegated them to the back burner for me. I hope we can all use whatever time is left us to share the redemptive power of the Lord Jesus with all around us. Time is running out. God bless each and every one of you who has added to this discussion. And may the dear Lord guide us, protect us and bless us in the dark days ahead. We will understand all the prophetic mysteries clearly when we see Him face to face.
Maranatha!
February 20th, 2009 at 2:15 am
Hi good4u! A number of us have had discussions with Norma in the past about the timing from Daniel 9 and the 70th week, so she is aware of the view that you described. However, what she was describing makes more sense to her, so in the end we had to agree to disagree.
Nancy, the reason why for the belief of a gap between weeks 69 and 70 is because the Jews rejected their Messiah at that time, so God’s prophetic clock paused for them (in good4u’s words) to allow the time of the Gentiles and the spread of the Gospel. After all, the 70 weeks were appointed specifically for Daniel’s people and the holy city (Israel and Jerusalem). One of the important things about this view is the idea that the 69 weeks ended when Jesus rode into Jerusalem right before His crucifixion, not at the time of His baptism as some believe. He was then killed immediately after the 69 weeks (within several days) because they did not recognize Him as the Messiah - but this was not in the middle of the 70th week according to this view.
February 20th, 2009 at 3:09 am
Bonjour Norma,
Thanks for your explanation. At first glance it looks like it holds itself. I only had a quick read so at this stage I do not have any comments.
Regarding your second post, I totally agree with you regarding the Temple. I do not think we’ll ever see a third one before the return of our King. The third One will stand in all its glory when it is rebuilt in the Millennium, not before!
Good for You : Bonjour chère soeur (hello dear sister) your nickname literally means : bon (good) pour toi (for you) hence, c’est bon pour toi ! It’s good for you!
Indeed Yeshua is good for us !
May y’all be blessed.
Shabbat shalom,
FX
February 20th, 2009 at 4:24 am
FX,
Shabbat Shalom mon frère! Indeed Yeshua builds the Temple when He returns. Until then, we are the Temple. The “temple” reference that the AC supposedly desecrates is in fact a pagan temple/shrine.
February 20th, 2009 at 7:08 am
Thanks for the response good4u. Contrary to popular belief, I’m not exactly a new poster here, lol. I’ve posted a couple of times before and lurk here every day so am very familiar with Joel’s position on end times eschatology and I agree with him completely! I’ve even corresponded with Joel about the possibility of him coming to my church to speak. Anyway, as I said, I had just recently heard about the ENP and even though it has to do with the EU, I thought it was still interesting to read about.
February 20th, 2009 at 7:25 am
Larry,
The word that is used for the Temple in Thessalonians is Naos. While it can be used of a shrine, in the New Testament, it is always used to refer to the Inner sanctuary of the Temple except once. How can the Antichrist set himself up in us, if we are the Temple of God? Something to consider. When Jesus said “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Mat 24:15″ When he said in the Holy Place, he was speaking about the Temple, not some pagan shrine.
From Strongs:
1) used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of gold was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure)
2) any heathen temple or shrine
3) metaph. the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in Christ
As for Paul Evans wacky theories, I’ve told him several times that he is off in left field. But he enjoys sharing and discussing with very unique theories. He never seems to be rude or forceful, so I just tend to skim over it.
February 20th, 2009 at 7:27 am
JWebb,
Amen and Amen.
February 20th, 2009 at 7:43 am
Good4U, nancy, Norma,
In brief (very brief) my problem with Norma’s position, which is held by many actually, is again that it asscoiates an event (1. the ceasing of offerings and 2. the abomination of desolations - actually one and the same event) that is always associated with the Antichrist as being asscoiated with Christ. So if the theory that Norma is setting forth is true, then this is what we are expected to believe:
ANTICHRIST: Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified [himself] even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
ANTICHRIST: Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
ANTICHRIST: Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
ANTICHRIST: Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
CHRIST: Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
There is no way that i could accept that. We always need to base our interpretations on more than just the isolated passage.
February 20th, 2009 at 9:57 am
Bonjour Joel,
You’ve got a point!
Larry, passe un merveilleux shabbat !
In Abba’s shalom,
FX
February 20th, 2009 at 11:47 am
Good Morning Joel
I do have a problem when people just lump everything that sounds similar together and say, this proves it to be so.
You know enough about me to know that I have done my homework and must have a VERY good reason for what I believe. That if scripture wasn’t very clear about the abominations of desolations that take place in both the past and in the future, and defined for those who search it out then I wouldn’t believe it. The first three verses you put up belong to Islam and the abomination of desolation it will bring into play. The last two you mentioned refer to the abomination that would bring desolation in 70 AD. Both are very important and both have scripture prophecying about the event. One does not nagate the other.
Is it important that these things be understood for the events that they are? I don’t know. The end will come as prophesied and whether or not the church agrees on how it will happen *ahead of time* won’t make a difference. All it means at this point is that you are expecting a 7 year agreement and I am not.
Are we both expecting a revived Islamic Empire to rise up? Yes. Are we expecting the birthpags spoken of in Matt to preceed the very end of days, which are seen in the Book of Revelation as the first four seals? I assume you are. I am. Do we beleive that the Lord will be seen coming in the clouds after the sun does not give light and the moon is red, as prophesied in both the Olivet discourse and the Book of Revelation? I believe we are both believing the same on that. If I am wrong about your postion, sorry.
So, will I argue which abomination each scripture is speaking of? Not to much, but I do like it when both parties speaking fo something fully understand the other persons position. And how they reached that understanding.
Good4u, you are very sweet and I thank you for wanting Joel to explain things to me about your position, but it seems I know your postition better than you do. I have studied it until I know it like the back of my hand and wouldn’t have needed someone else to explain it for me on here. I just have found that it has flaws when looking deeper into the scripture that support it. I wish everyone studied all the positions in depth. But probably not going to happen. I am a realist.
God bless to all
In Him
Norma
February 20th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
good4you,
Paul has many deep things to say…even Peter found Paul hard to under-
stand. Paul is my favorite. I don’t claim to have all of Paul’s words comprehended, but I’m fairly comfortable with the conclusion that Rom. 11 is not speaking of a 2000 year gap between the 69th week and the 70th.
I hear Paul grieving for His People. I see Paul reminding the Gentile Church to remain humble. He leaves hope for the Jewish people, and reminds His audience that God did not reject His People…they rejected Him.
The whole message of Scripture is clear regarding the Jewish people….
when they want Jesus, they can have HIM. (His arms are always out-
stretched)
Paul speaks of Elijah, who assumed “I am the only one left”…GOD
reminds Elijah “I have reserved for myself 7,000 who have not bowed
the knee to Ball.” (the Church started w/Jews and is filled w/Jews)
The gift of Eternal Life was offered to the Jew first…then the Gentile.
For 3 1/2 years the message was exclusively offered to JUDAH.
Remember the Parables? Go back and read Matt 20…Who is Jesus
talking about when he says “So the last will be first, and the first will
be last.”? (read it again before you answer)
What about Matt 21? “Therefore I tell you that the Kingdom of GOD will
be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit”
Again Matt 22…The wedding Banquet…
The above parable is very sobering…The first “guest” simply ignored
the invitation…some even “seized” the folks who did the inviting,
mistreating and even murdering them. So, the King “sent His army
and destroyed those murderers and burned their city”….He then invites
all, and many do come, but not all are accepted….only those wearing
the “wedding clothes” get to stay…”For many are invited, but few are
chosen” (this last part is another post)
Point is…I love Paul, but the scriptures have to be taken as a whole.
When Paul is hard to understand, Jesus can help clear up any misunder-
standing…
Blessings
February 20th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Quote-but I’m fairly comfortable with the conclusion that Rom. 11 is not speaking of a 2000 year gap between the 69th week and the 70th.
Niether am I, Nancy.
Rom 25 “I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.”
The gospel went out to the gentiles after the Jewish *nation* rejected Jesus. In otherwords they did not recognize the day of their visitation within the time allotted to them as a nation which was a full 70 weeks, not 69 weeks.
The 70 weeks are according to the Jewish calendar so that they could count the years until Messiah was to come. They could have even counted it by Jubilees. How can the people living through all those years count if it is not by their calendar. By their calendar it is exactly 483 years from the decree until Jesus is baptized. The way to change this is to say this time was meant to be counted by 360 days per year. Their calendar is made up of regular years and leap years. In those regular years and leap years there are minimum Days Per Year (353, 383) and medium DPY (regular-354, leap-384) and Maximum DPY (355, 385.) As you can see no Jewish year equals 360 days per year. In the leap year their is an extra month of Adar added. The Lord set up their calendar by moons and every 19 years our calendar and their calendar will agree in the amount of days that have passed during that 19 years. So the time from the decree to the time the Messiah comes can be counted by our calendar. On the link I wanted to put up earlier and was not able to do was a chart showing the weeks, year by year, from the decree to His baptism. Now who stops the days from passing? Where is it written that at the last day of the 69th week wouldn’t be followed by the first day of the 70th?
Is it just a coincidence that Jesus came to confirm His covenant with many. That is what He did. No one can deny that. Or that His sacrifice was made in the midst of a week? It only lasted for a half a week or 3 1/2 years for teaching His covenant. None would disagree with that. Does anyone believe that God accepted even one Jewish sacrifice after His Son gave His life for our salvation? Or did the Jewish animal sacrifices made in denial of His Son become a stink onto the nostrils of God and cease in relevance to God?
This clock that ticked away the years until Messiah did not stop suddenly at the end of 69 weeks. It continued until the Jews had fully rejected Him and all that He did for the full 70 allotted to them by God. It was at that time that the first became last and the last became first. And God will not deal with the Jews again until the fullness of the Gentile is made complete. Then those that had once been first will get a second chance to recognize their Messiah and morn Him that they pierced. The time allotted to those end days when the first will once again be given that chance to see the truth are given in the book of Revelation. God didn’t have to hole over 7 years for this, like Sprint’s hold over minutes.
He just simply appointed the time for it.
Those things listed to Daniel that the Jewish people had only 70 years to accomplish, were not accomplished by the nation because they rejected the only person that could have accomplished it for them. Belief in the Son of God that He sent as promised.
When He returns and the nation believes….. then all Israel will be saved. Which is after the time of the gentiles is has run it’s full course.
Just because Dan 9 is not speaking of the end days doesn’t mean that other prophecies aren’t talking about the end days.
God bless
February 20th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
I meant I agree with you Nancy. Lol! I guess I read it as you were uncomfortable with the idea of a 2000 year gap between the 69th and 70th week.
February 20th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
How come sometimes when I post it says “awaiting moderation.” after my name, and yet other posts go straight through, and some never post at all? This is a confusing forum sometimes.
Does this mean the post that I posted just before Nancy’s last post is not visable to anyone but me?
February 20th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
Norma,
Well said!
(why don’t we hear from you more often?)
Blessings
February 20th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Thanks, Nancy. I don’t know. I come here a few times a day to read, but since I disagree with Joel on a few rather important things and I really don’t like disagreeing with the owner of a blog or forum when they are doing a service for the Lord……so…. I feel less “pesty” if I don’t make a lot of comments. But sometimes I guess I am jsut in a talkitive mood, so to speak, and can’t stop myself.
But it is more important that Joel get the word out about Islam being Christian’s *worst nightmare* in the end days, and I don[t want to distract from that by disagreeing with him about things that will prove out in the days to come anyway, one way or the other.
February 20th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
Good4U
If I ever had the guts to try and publish a book it would be on the actual location of the old Temple on the Temple Mount. But.. no guts.
February 20th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
Joel,
You didn’t say anything about my post above http://www.joelstrumpet.com/?p=1766#comment-158675
That’s the problem with the Greek. We also have a HUGE problem with the word LAW in Greek, it is “Nomos”, but the Hebrew has different words for different meanings of “Law”. One is Torah (the most important), then we have Halacha, Oral Law, etc. So, how do you know in Greek which one is which? Well, we need to understand who’s talking, usually Paul speaks about the Law, what was he, a Pharisee, what were the teachings of the Pharisees, the culture of that time, the Oral Law, the context of the text, etc.
Same with “Naos”. We have to take every single verse in the Bible that speaks of a so-called future temple. I’m not gonna present all verses, but just general ideas from those verses.
1. We are the Temple now
2. The Temple in 70 AD was destroyed by God basically, and He will not allow apostate Judah (the “Jews”) to rebuild it, it would NOT make sense. Many believers say that Apostate Judah will rebuild the temple, but it won’t really be God’s temple, it won’t be blessed/godly. We have a problem with that, it just doesn’t make sense, why would God let them build that and how can the AC desecrate a temple that is not godly/blessed?
3. Messiah builds the Temple when He returns and we have the plans of the Temple in Ezekiel
4. When Yeshua mentions the Abomination of Desolation in Daniel, indeed He says “in the Holy Place”, but that today means the place on the Temple Mount where the Holy of Holies stood, in fact that’s the most disputed piece of real estate on the planet, the Rabbis are not sure where the place was exactly, that’s why it’s so hard to be allowed to go on the Temple Mount to not desecrate it by mistake (which is rather silly because of those 2 mosques, the Muslims and their pagan worship there, but that’s what the Rabbis believe). It’s not exactly like in Antiochus’ time when we had the Temple and he put a statue of Zeus in the Holy Place.
5. Daniel 9:27 is pretty hard to translate from Hebrew, everyone agrees with that, but I presented earlier a different translation found in a footnote of NIV:
Daniel 9:27 And one who causes desolation [the AC] will come upon the pinnacle of the ABOMINABLE TEMPLE [or temples, the 2 mosques] , until the end that is decreed is poured out on the desolated city
I also said earlier that I have a cool picture of a big rally in Damascus, Syria where youths are seen carrying on their shoulders a model of the Dome of the Rock mosque (built by the Umayyad Caliphate based in Syria). On the top of the model (on the wing, pinnacle, if you will) you can see 2 pictures, one of the 11th (or 1st) Imam (a painting/drawing) and next to it, that of Bashar Assad. Even on their shawls around their necks, there are designs of the mosque. This is what they want, Assad in Jerusalem ruling from the Temple Mount.
Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
Or a different translation:
Dan 11:45 And he shall fix his tabernacle, Apadno, between the seas, upon a glorious and holy mountain: and he shall come even to the TOP thereof, and none shall help him.
What TOP? Temple Mount. Regarding the sacrifice that the AC will abolish/stop/forbid, the Hebrew word is “tamyid”. This is from http://www.templemountfaithful.org/pass1.htm “This sacrifice can be performed even before the Temple is built, just on an altar on the Temple Mount”, “This will be done on an altar which is already ready”, “It is only on the Temple mount that sacrifice can be performed on an altar. We hope that the Israeli government will at least grant us the permission to perform the sacrifice in this place”.
This is what Daniel is talking about, the AC will stop/forbid this altar/sacrifice on the Temple Mount, prohibiting Apostate Judah from building a temple.
6. Like I said earlier, we ARE Israel, blood bought, grafted in. There are no “dispensations” of the Gentiles, Jews, etc. So, we are not raptured in some occultic chambers in the heavens while the Jews on Earth suffer and have to build their temple. During the Tribulation, a Remnant of the Jews (tribe of Judah) will be grafted back into the Olive Tree of Israel and we will be there to see it.
Shalom
February 20th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Norma,
I think WE are our “worst nightmare”
and the fig leaves (denominations, religions) we use to cover ourselves, but YHWH will judge both, Mystery Babylon who rides Babylon in the Middle East (Islam). There is hope though, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Blessings
February 20th, 2009 at 4:14 pm
Larry! Lol! I disagree with everything you just said. But oh well.
Blessing in the Lord
February 20th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
Norma,
Everything?
Even secular people use this expression that WE are our worst enemies and they are right, in biblical terms, you could call it “the flesh”. Yeshua (Jesus) Himself said:
Luk 16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world [SECULARISTS] are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
Blessings to you too
February 20th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
Yes, I am my own worst enemy for many reasons, like I don’t eat properly, exersize enough, etc. to mantian this body the way I should. I am my own worst enemy that I am in the flesh and need the covering of Jesus daily for my sins. But Jesus won’t be judging us by whether or not our doctrine is perfect. He will be judging us individually according to whether or not our hearts are for Him. Some from this church and some from that church. The USA/NY city/Church, whichever you meant, isn’t Babylon sitting on Babylon in the ME. Did I misunderstand something you said?
February 20th, 2009 at 5:54 pm
Norma,
“I do have a problem when people just lump everything that sounds similar together and say, this proves it to be so.”
Notice that I did not say that it “proves it to be so”, simply that I cannot accept it. I know others that hold to your position. So while I very much doubt that it is the correct interpretation, on this one at least, I must invoke the: God knows best. Also, Norma, never fear disagreeing with me, here. I’m really not a dictator. So long as something is not so flat out bogus that it has dangerous implications for the Body, I usually will not worry about it.
Larry,
Sorry, I didn’t initially see your lengthy post way up there. Thanks for responding. Forgive me for not responding in full here, but the idea that we Gentile believers are no longer Gentiles, or that all Gentile believers are actually members of the Lost Tribes is IMO, a great last days deception. It is this kind of false doctrine that leads folks to believe things like every non-feast celebrating Christian will be eaten by animals as a judgment of God before the return of Christ… This is a huge subject, but not one that I have time to deal with daily. I am quite sure that we would not agree on this regardless of what is said. For now, I would simply remind you that while I am very tolerant here, one thing I cannot tolerate is non-Biblical proselytizing on this forum. Loving His Torah is absolutely wonderful, but once one crosses into claiming that everyone else MUST obey Torah whether Jew or Gentile (otherwise they will be devoured by Beasts), then it becomes heretical, destructive and unbiblical. And I just do not have time to run an apologetics web-site.
Blessings, Joel
February 20th, 2009 at 6:41 pm
Thanks Joel
Common courtesy is why I don’t comment too much on anyones board, or blog, and speak of things they can not accept. I don’t like to bug people too much.
I Know you aren’t a dictator type and I am pretty much fearless when it comes to *taking people on* when the Spirit moves me.
I have known since first finding this blog that you would not be able to accept that there won’t be a 7 year agreement, but figure it doesn’t hurt for people to hear this, because I feel it is correct. Forewarned people accept things easier when events force them to change their thinking later on. I know you will. I am such a little stinker.
God bless
February 20th, 2009 at 8:26 pm
Norma,
Like I said, this exact interpretation is presented in the Eerdman’s Bible Commentary. Its not the 7 year thing that I cannot accept. In fact, a few of the early Church Fathers speak of the coming three and a half year trib, but never mention any seven year period. So I am slightly open to the idea. But its the notion that Jesus is in any way responsible for the “abomination” and ceasing of offerings (that happened 40 years later). Specifically when every other usage of the abomination and ceasing of offerings are associated with the Anti-Christ.
February 20th, 2009 at 8:48 pm
Hmmm…well, that’s interesting. Slightly open is good.
I would love to get into this with you someday because so much understanding of Dan 9 comes from an understanding of the Olivet discourse, but it would be rather difficult to discuss on a blog. A side-by-side study of the three accounts of the discourse with color coding of the verses reveals so much. And the history of what happened in 70 AD concerning the Temple and the abominations taking place at the time helps put it into proper perspective. But it is an involved study and a person needs time to really get into it and I know that you already have too much on your plate. But I think it wise of you to remain slightly open because you haven’t really seen this theory fully explained before. For myself, once I saw how it fits together I can not see it any other way as I read the scriptures concerning this.
Until “someday”
God bless
February 21st, 2009 at 1:02 pm
I am not really responding to any poster here, Joel. As far as I am concerned you had the “last word.” But this thread is highly interesting to me for a variety of reasons as a long-time prophecy student. I’m sure you get this idea…:)
February 21st, 2009 at 2:08 pm
Ummm…okay, Joel, I just have to add one tinsy, binsy, thing to help. I’m kinda reversing myself a bit, but I’m not replying to any poster specifically. If you disapprove, I will always defer to you, Joel. I have the greatest respect for your spiritual understanding as the Holy Spirit has given it to you.
When I refer to a seven year treaty (that both Joel and I support) I am referring to a larger time frame. Not the 3 1/2 year time frame that Norma and Nancy seem to constantly refer to as the 70th week. The 70th week of Daniel is the LARGER time frame in the broader scope of prophectic Scripture. This 70th week begins officially at the signing of this covenant by Israel. However, having said that, that when you see the “abomintation that causes desolation” proclaim himself “God” in the “temple” we (i.e., the church) have entered into the specific time period widely-known as the Great Tribulation. For Israel, it will be the time of “Jacob’s trouble” for the church/saints it will be the Great Tribulation.
Joel, if you disagree, let me know. Maybe this is just a vigorous “in-house” discussion among brothers and sisters which is nothing ever to divide over. Ever! As Mishael has rightly pointed out, we will just agree to disagree. And let the Holy Spirit who teaches all things to his children and the revealer of all mysteries do his work for we are not permitted to do it for Him. He alone maintains such authority!
Shalom, good4u
February 21st, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Good4U,
While I hold to the more traditional position that the final seven years is the last week of daniel’s 70 weeks, I am mildly open to other perspectives, such as the idea that the week was partially fulfilled in Christ’s ministry. But again, I am in deep doubt about this.
February 21st, 2009 at 6:26 pm
Good4u,
Although you are not addressing me, I think I understand your point.
You are wondering where Jacob’s Trouble fits in? I am still very much
a student (not a teacher)…and I’m still sorting out many of my own
thoughts regarding many scriptures…having said this, I still believe
that Jacob’s trouble is yet to be fulfilled. I have always insisted that
Jacob is not exclusively Judah (Jews). I believe that Jacob includes all
of Jacob (Judah and Israel…Ephraim…the Church). This is not what
Joel believes and probably not Norma, but this is my expectation.
This is not something you need to rescue me from! This is simply a
view that I hold and I’m aware that I could be wrong…I’m also aware
that I’m in the minority here. But a rose is still a rose no matter what
you call it…point is I’m expecting trouble for all of GOD’s children
before Jesus returns…this is where Islam enters the picture for me.
We would not be here if we didn’t all agree on this last point…right?
Blessings
February 21st, 2009 at 7:39 pm
Joel,
Please read my post again. This again is another misunderstanding, I NEVER said that all Gentiles are members of the lost 10 tribes. What I said was, that the 10 tribes were scattered throughout the world and many times when Paul and the rest of the apostles are using the word Gentile, they are referring to those lost sheep of the 10 tribes who by disobeying YHWH (Torah), became like “goy”, like Gentiles. Everything that I said is biblical, I gave clear Bible verses there and I’m sure you know these things.
We never complain about the tens of thousands of Laws that we have in our judicial system, but when it comes to the Torah (which means teachings and instructions that Yeshua kept and we are called to keep, to walk like He did, not because we’re better, not to brag, not to be saved, but because we ARE saved and we love Him), we say that those were just in the past for the “Jews”.
Scot’s “witty cliche”, “there comes a day when you either honor the feasts or you will become the feast” is very true, and doesn’t necessarily mean that ALL will be devoured by wild beasts, I NEVER said that.
Shalom
February 21st, 2009 at 8:00 pm
Norma,
You said “The USA/NY city/Church, whichever you meant, isn’t Babylon sitting on Babylon in the ME. Did I misunderstand something you said?”
Mystery Babylon in Revelation 17 is clearly a City (verse 18) and cannot be Dubai, Mecca, etc., because the Syrian Antichrist and his 10 buddies will hate and kill her. The Syrian Antichrist will never destroy his own Kingdom (Babylon), because he IS the King of Babylon, it is nonsense. These are 2 different entities, Beauty and the Beast. She rides the Beast (the Islamic Kingdom of the AC), they use her and then abuse her. She is indeed like previously thought Rome which Muslims hate and promise to destroy, nothing complicated here.
Islam is not Christian’s worst enemy. Islam is another tool in YHWH’s hand. Sin which is disobeying the Torah is our worst enemy, but Abba will judge both. The AC we see in the Prophets is an axe, a tool in Abba’s hand, it doesn’t say our enemy. We have to see the bigger picture here.
Shalom
February 22nd, 2009 at 10:56 am
I didn’t say worst enemy I said worst nightmare.
Quoting myself; But it is more important that Joel get the word out about Islam being Christian’s *worst nightmare* in the end days, end Quote
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to *make war with the saints, and to overcome them:* and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Islam is the beast.