European Antichrist Contradictions
New Article from Rodrigo Silva of Beast from The East. Check it out. Once again, Rodrigo makes some truly excellent observations. He demonstrates something that I have been saying for somtime: While the historical position of the Church has been that the Antichrist would come from a revived Roman Empire and from somewhere within the former regions of that Empire, this does not demand a European Antichrist. The Roman Empire included much of the Middle East and Northern Africa as well, did it not? As far back as the 3rd century, Cyril of Jerusalem stated that the Antichrist would come from Syria. It is in modern times that the false equation of Roman = European has become cemented into the mind of large segments of the Church. This really shows that more of us are good students of our teachers than we are of the Bible and of historical facts. The emphasis within prophecy communities on the EU for the past twenty five years has all of the Church myopically looking only there. So today if someone suggests that King Charles or Nicolai Carpathia (fictitious person in Left Behind series) could be the Antichrist, then Roman theorists will gladly entertain such a notion. But once one crosses the Bosporus or the Mediterranean, into for instance Turkey or Syria, then we have somehow gone off the reservation and can no longer play in the reindeer games. Yet Syria and Turkey are every bit as much “Roman” as England or Romania or Germany etc. The Church needs to wake up to the fact that they have exchanged the historical Roman position for the modern and unbiblical European position. So great job Rodrigo for highlighting this fact so well! Of course, I still argue that the Bible nowhere says that the Antichrist will come from the Roman Empire. In fact the Roman Empire does not meet the most basic Biblical criteria to be the fourth Empire of Daniel 2. But that’s another issue altogether…
February 10th, 2009 at 9:33 am
… and Obama is preparing to lift sanctions against Syria, which have been in place since 1979.
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2009/ss_syria0115_02_09.asp
February 10th, 2009 at 9:49 am
This argument is tiresome….
Is it out of the realm of possibility that the AC could be an Assyrian living in Europe that comes to power? When the MU and EU merge you will have a reborn Roman Empire, and this includes many muslim nations. It is my opinion that Iraq will be admitted into this union and this new leader (AC) will make this his capital because Iraq is going to become one of the most prosperous nations on earth. Also, the EU looks at itself as a symbolic tower of Babel, and Babylon would make this symbolism come to life. This is why people are amazed at the rebirth of the this “head.” Babylon is currently being rebuilt and it’s utter destruction laid out in the Bible has never truly occurred. It has been constantly inhabited and stones have been taken for building, and it has not been destroyed completely by fire.
February 10th, 2009 at 10:35 am
Gideon,
You have to remember that the capital of the Roman empire shifted to the east in Constantinople (modern Istanbul). The Roman empire will be part of the beast, but only the eastern portion which covered the nations of Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Libya. All these nations are mentioned in the prophets as coming under God’s judgment. No European nations like England, Italy, Spain, Germany, Portugal etc. are ever mentioned in the Bible, therefore, Western Europe MUST be out of the picture. With that said, it is out of the realm of possibility that the AC could be an Assyrian living in Europe because the Antichris is the last ruler of the Seleucid reaml of power which covered parts of Turkey, Syria, Assyria, Iraq, and Iran. He must come from that region according to Daniel 8 and 11 (last king of the North).
I also believed in the past that the Mediterranean Union would be the reborn Roman Empire but further studies led me to believe that Western Europe will come out of the picture after the formation an an Islamic Union which is already underway which will only include the Islamic countries of the eastern portion of the Roman Empire (Turkey, Syria, Egypt, Libya, Lebanon).
A few more years and you will see Western Europe come out of the picture. The capital of the Roman empire was in the east for the last two thirds of the empire’ existence. Rome and Western Europe have no role in to play in prophecy. Prophecy always point to the east, never to the west. It took me more than a year to come to this realization because you see, our human nature is not willing accept the fact that we are wrong. The longer you believe something, the longer it takes for you to get rid of it even when there solid objective truth poiting to another direction.
Here is what prophecy scholar Joh Walvoord who believed in a Revived Roman Empire wrote about Rome being identified with the seven mountains of Revelation 17:9:
‘’This passage has caused great confusion among expositors who have difficulty understanding what it means when it says that the seven heads are seven hills and that the woman sits on them. The statement, ‘’This calls for a mind with wisdom,’’ (v. 9) is clearly indicated by the history of interpretation of this passage. One of the common explanations is to refer to the seven hills as the city of Rome which was known as ‘’the city of seven hills.’’ The ancient city of Rome was located on the left bank of the Tiber, and seven hill were named: Palatine, Aventine, Caelian, Equiline, Viminal, Quirimal, and Capitoline. As Rome grew in power and in size, it took another hill, Janiculum, which was also numbered among the seven hills, and the hill Capitoline was omitted. Still later another hill, Pincian, north of ancient Rome, was added, requiring subtraction of one of the hills. The confusion of the seven heads of the beast with the seven hills of Rome, however, arises from inattention to what the passage states. John was informed, ‘’They are also seven kings’’ (v. 10). If the hills represent kings, then they do not refer to the seven hills of Rome, and the whole confusion that Rome is the capital of ecclesiastical Babylon is brought into question. Further, a statement is made, ‘’Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, but when he does come, he must remain for a little while’’ (v. 10). This could not refer to hills. How can the five that are fallen and the one that is and the one not yet come be identified? Some have identified the five as some of the more prominent rulers of ancient Rome, but it is difficult to select five who deserve this prominence. Accordingly, scholars have suggested that instead of the five referring to individual kings, they refer to the great nations of the past who were empires. This would include Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and ancient Rome. . . This view at least is a possibility.’’ [1]
[1] John F. Walvoord, Every Prophecy of the Bible, 1999 Chariot Victor Publishing pp. 607-608
February 10th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Rodrigo,
My education and Bachelors is in history, I know quite well that there were in fact two capitals and the empire was split into east and west, and shifted under Constantine. Where was the capital located when Christians were first persecuted and killed? Where was the capital located when Christ was crucified? Where was the capital located when John was in prison on Patmos and received his Revelation? Rome will be involve, but Rome was not my main point…
I guess you didn’t get my original point. My original point was that neither, in my opinion, the Ottomon empire or the European (Roman) AntiChrist theory will be correct. The empire to come back to life is Babylon. The EU is the model upon which the future system is going to be based. This final empire will contain all past empires in it’s borders and will ultimately swallow the entire world. It is entirely possible for an Assyrian to come to power in Europe and establish the new capital of the merged EU & MU in it’s newly joined nation of Iraq. Whoever the AC is has to have control over the markets and this is not going to happen in the current ME. Control over the markets will, if it is soon, take place originally in the west.
Babylon must rise again, the prophecies against it have yet to be fulfilled. While Jerusalem is GOD’s eternal holy city, Babylon is Satan’s unholy city that will be destroyed by fire. Babylon as a world empire has risen twice before and it will a THIRD time, it’s final try. Just look at the counterfieting Satan does to establish his throne above GOD. The Jewish Temple has been built and destroyed twice, each one by a Babylon, and the THIRD will be built and stand at the same time as a newly established Babylonian empire is in power.
The city of Babylon is currently being prepped for rebuilding. Both the UN and US have given large sums of money to get the process up and running. The Iraqi government has plans in place for restoration of the ruins, shops, hotels, neighborhoods, etc.
Iraq is getting it’s oil production back on line and once it does it will be one of the world’s largest producers of oil. This will make the country independently wealthy over night.
February 10th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Gideon,
I agree with you! (all accept the third temple, I might be wrong, but until I see it happen, I don’t see it)
As for the EU and the MU I believe your are on to something…by the way, Joel…have you seen the evidence for Prince Charles? Did you know that Muslims adore Him…He’s been called a friend to both Islam and Judaism….and commerce is his “thing”.
Many books have been written about Him, all from different perspectives,
and all claiming “He’s more dangerous than he appears”….
He can trace his family tree back to Judah and he’s also believed to be
“Assyrian”. I’m not dogmatic about the Prince, but I’ve seen the evidence
and like Obama, He’s on my short list!
February 10th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
Also possible: the EU could be absorbed by the Eastern part of the old Roman Empire. Clearly, the Western Europeans are approaching a state of moral exhaustion and could fall prey to creeping sharia, political correctness, and bankruptcy. Large-scale emigration is hastening the demographic shift.
What if this were all rendered academic because Europe became Muslim?
February 10th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
everything is possible but i was reminded by a quote in joels 1st book that state that we should look at the world trends (which is by the way going in Islam’s way) and the Muslims fanatical zeal on ther religion that spells out which one will be it. That’s one realistic approach in harmony with studying this prophecy
February 10th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Gideon,
We agree on Babylon being the possible revived head of the beast. Read my article on the subject at:
http://www.beastfromtheeast.org/Bbaylon_Revived_Head.html
I have written that Assyria would be the revived head but there are a few things required and Babylon seems to fit the bill, not Assyria.
As far as controlling the markets, I would like to suggest that the current form of economy will fall apart and the Middle East will eventually be the center of the world’s economy, not the west, therefore the Antichrist will have an economic powerhouse in the Middle East with Babylon ans his political and economic capital. He won’t need to control European or western markets since he will be the king of the political and most powerful economic place in the world and that is Babylon as you said.
February 10th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
OTT.
I just came across this article: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304741844&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
I find it extremely sad and worrying.
February 11th, 2009 at 2:11 am
A big problem today within prophecy circles is that we tend to get rid of ALL “old” interpretations and come up with “new” ones (typical Greek mindset, “new” replaces “old”).
Mystery Babylon is clearly a City and can NOT be Mecca, Dubai, etc., because Revelation 17 says that the AC and his 10 buddies will hate the whore and kill her. The Antichrist will never destroy a “Babylon” in the Middle East, because he IS the King of Babylon. Just like a Muslim cleric said in a youtube video we recently had on this website called Hamas in their own voices, the Muslims will go to Rome and destroy it, because they have never forgotten what Catholicism did to Islam in the Crusades.
Mystery Babylon (Rome) rides Literal Babylon (the Kingdom of the Antichrist in the Middle East). I don’t understand what is so hard to understand, why all the commotion and arguments.
Continuing on Western Europe (and America) in prophecy, it is my understanding that “merchants of Tarshish”, “mightiest of nations” and possibly “Kittim”, refer to Western Europe (plus America). The Syrian Antichrist will attack them. The AC Kingdom is local, 1/3 of the world, although it will have some global influence. It will be a revived Fatimid Caliphate modeled after the Umayyad Caliphate based in Syria.
All AC prophecies point to Syria, Daniel 11 King of the North, Damascus, Syria’s capital, literally means “to the north”, “northern”, actually some Bible translations have King of Syria instead of north. The AC comes out of one of the 4 divisions (the seleucid division) of the Grecian Empire, specifically from the area that is south-east of the seat of the Grecian Empire, Greece, and NEAR the Beautiful Land, that narrows it down to only Syria and Lebanon, actually Ezekiel calls the AC, the Prince of Tyre, which is in Lebanon, today a Syrian puppet. Syria has the largest Assyrian population after Iraq. Wikipedia:
“The name Syria derives from the ancient Greek name for Syrians, Σύριοι Syrioi, which the Greeks applied without distinction to various Assyrian people. Modern scholarship confirms the Greek word traces back to the cognate Ἀσσυρία, Assyria, ultimately derived from the Akkadian Aššur.”
February 11th, 2009 at 7:43 pm
Yes, it is sad. I just don’t get it. All countries have laws, sets of rules and regulations, courts of law , etc. Only Christians say “we are not under the Law, we only have to love”. It is beyond my understanding. I have to admit, I was the same, but because I was only listening to people and traditions, without studying the Word for myself. It makes me so mad when I hear things like “the Gentile church”, the “Jews”, the “Christians”, “Israel”, when the Bible clearly teaches that we ARE ISRAEL, bought, grafted in, children of Abraham.
February 11th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
why you block me joel
February 11th, 2009 at 10:35 pm
hey joel, please put back scot’s post, thanks
February 11th, 2009 at 10:39 pm
Larry,
I have already asked Scot very politely not to use this forum to preach this kind of nonsense: Any believer who does not observe Torah will follow Lucifer - Christianity is inspired by Satan. Give me a break. There are cults out there that are more balanced than that. He was forewarned and his post is gone as will any further posts of this nature. I’m not going to allow this forum to be a pulpit for anyone to preach against the Body of Christ. I’d rather shut the whole thing down. He can preach his doctrines on his own time all he wishes, but not here.
February 11th, 2009 at 10:41 pm
Lee,
I didn’t block your post. I recieve sometimes a few hundred spam posts per day and as such I have a pretty restrictive spam filter that sometimes deletes particular posts.
February 11th, 2009 at 11:18 pm
Scot,
“Hiding my deeds of darkness”. Seriously? Your last post only confirms what I have been discerning for sometime. For me to continue with you would be to violate His commandments.
February 11th, 2009 at 11:18 pm
“Would you please explain Galatians 4:4 to me then?”
Scot,
I’m still waiting on your explanation of Galatians 4:21-31???
Why don’t you go first?
February 12th, 2009 at 2:03 am
Joel,
What happened to free speech? I understand you don’t believe these things, although I pray that you would reconsider, but maybe other readers are interested in this and like Scot said, let’s have an open dialogue with ONLY the Apostolic Writings (”new testament”).
Remember Yeshua’s followers were a “cult”, hated by most people. You’re probably gonna say, I’ve heard this argument, blablabla, every single cult is using it, but I have to say Joel, this doesn’t disprove the fact. Why were they a cult and who persecuted them? Religious people, who replaced YHWH’s truth with man’s traditions, this is not some old story, it is happening today everywhere. Are we making the same mistakes today??? Yes, it is human nature, or the flesh. But we don’t have to, we have to learn from the past.
Regarding “hiding deeds of darkness”, sorry, you’re twisting Scot’s words, he only meant that we should keep this dialogue open, without deleting posts and banning, because under the cover of darkness (deleting and banning) it is where works of wickedness can and do happen.
nancy,
Apparently Scot was banned, you can email Scot for a free DVD on Galatians (just click on his name anywhere in this forum to go to his website), but Rico Cortes also has a great study on the same subject (http://www.godslearningchannel.com/tools/vod/?N=Rico%20Cortes). I am sure that your willingness to find out the truth will not go unrewarded.
Shalom
February 12th, 2009 at 7:26 am
Larry,
Freedom of Speech applies to society. No one has the right to be heard wherever they wish. I cannot walk into Walmart and take the microphone and start preaching to the shoppers. Nor can I call into any radio show and demand to be heard. I control this forum. Very rarely do I ever ban anyone. I asked Scot very nicely and very reasonably not to use this to preach his anti-Christian doctrines. Scot does not respect me or anyone else. His last post was a flurry of insults. His concern is his own agenda. (Which I am sure he would equate with Yahweh’s agenda) I taught with him as he went into a Church and preached that everyone should leave the Church. Any Church or forum that hosts him is being used. Plain and simple. That’s not going to happen here.
February 12th, 2009 at 8:36 am
Joel,
Freedom of Speech on this Forum depends on YOU and this is what I meant, open dialogue using only the Scriptures, maybe readers like nancy want to hear more. I think Scot meant leaving man’s traditions, institutions, and I totally agree with him, God commands us to do so when He says, come out of her My people! And please don’t tell me that is the “Jews” who have to come out of a literal Babylon like Rodrigo teaches (something like that as I recall), now that is nonsense.
February 12th, 2009 at 8:57 am
Joel,
By the way, Scot emailed me all his last posts that you deleted, and I do not consider them insults, I agree with them wholeheartedly. Shalom brother.
nancy,
This is from Scot:
“Will you please tell nancy (joelstrumpet.com) that I will send her a DVD on Galatians when I complete it. It is already recorded, just not on dvd yet. Also, please tell her that I did answer Galatians 4:21 (about 6 paragraphs worth) but it got deleted when I told Joel Roman Catholicism is not the ekklesia. Joel just deleted half of it…”