Dr. Reagan’s Lamplighter Article Online
A week or so ago, I mentioned that Dr. David Reagan had written an article which contained a critical review of Antichrist: Islam’s Awaited Messiah as well as God’s War on Terror, which I co-authored with Walid Shoebat. The article is now online on Dave’s site in the latest issue of Lamplighter Magazine. Click here to read the PDF.
My initial response was to invite Dr. Reagan to discuss our theological disagreements in a book together. This would give the body o Christ a chance to compare our respective cases. That invitation may be read here. Unfortunately due to prior commitments, Dr. reagan was not interested in such a joint venture.
Since then, Dr. Reagan and I have exchanged several very cordial e-mails but have essentially agreed to disagree. I did inform Dr. Reagan that I have written a response to his article which will be released here in another week or two.
January 6th, 2009 at 8:08 pm
After reading his critique, I have to wonder if Dr. Reagan read Joel’s book or just read the “Cliff notes”! Joel’s book left me with the impression that the devil will use Islam, as we know it today, as a vehicle to set up a system to be used by the Antichrist. In the six-day war, Sunni Muslim worked with the Soviets in an attempt to destroy Israel, yet, for some reason, Dr. Reagan finds it hard to believe that the Sunnis could follow a Shi’ite in a battle against Israel. All the sects of Islam could easily follow a single military leader and, as Joel pointed out, Muslims will have a problem mid-trib when the Antichrist demands to be worshiped. In short, Dr. Reagan missed the point on several key points of Joel’s book.
January 6th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
“Dr. Reagan finds it hard to believe that the Sunnis could follow a Shi’ite in a battle against Israel.”
Your observation is true pigpen. However, one need not assume that the Antichrist will be a Shi’a. Dr. Reagan erred significantly with regard to his claim that “the Sunnis do not await a Mahdi”. I document this fact extensively in my response, but as I said, I will release this in a week or so.
Bless You! Joel
January 6th, 2009 at 9:14 pm
One of the flaws of his argument against Joel’s in particular is that he is arguing “Up is right, therefore, down is incorrect”. His whole argument is based off one verse Daniel 9:26 and he forms his entire belief and the bible from that one verse, and if no one believes it is “Roman” they are wrong.
The bible is an Eastern Book, and Dr. Reagan has a “Western mind set” and again he concludes that if you do not believe like him, then you are wrong. The bible is very much an Near Eastern book, it was written by Jews who lived in Israel, which is a Near Eastern Country, which would have an Eastern Mindset.
The bible truths maybe universal, but the bible was written by Eastern men, who thought in Eastern thought, vs Western Thought of Dr. Reagan.
The other problem Reagan has is that his view is that the sixth, seventh and Eighth are Roman. And that conclusion does make his view “western”?
His view is totally western set, that he is too blind to see it and he makes himself out to be hypocritical when he makes these types of claims against others. He trips over his own allegations.
He believes the “antichrist” will rule the entire world. There is a problem with that, no one has ever done that before. There is no precedent in the bible nor in history for anyone to conclude that. So in this point Joel has the stronger point. And it is insane that Reagan believes that anyone can take over the entire world in 3 1/2 years by pure military might. It took America 8 years to settle Iraq.
Reagan goes on to say that this “antichrist” will rule the entire world. as stated above, no one has ever done such a thing, every empire in the world has centered around a certain location. The bible documents six empires in its pages, all centered around Israel and the middle East, the origin of the empires may have come further west, but all of them controlled Israel.
Revelation pages gives clues as to the location of the seventh and eighth empire, Turkey! It was written in Turkey, the seven Churches are in Turkey, Rome controlled the East via Turkey, Byzantine Empire was centralized in Turkey, the Ottoman Empire was centralized in Turkey, the Eighth empire, the Beast from the Abyss, stems from the Ottoman Empire. All from Turkey. So I must conclude that it is from Rome! (sarcasm).
Joel is right, when the bible talks of “every tribe and tongue” it is hyperbole, there is no evidence in the bible that it means the entire world, most context means it is what is being controlled or what is given to them. So every “tribe and tongue” could mean all controlled by Babylon or under the influence of Solomon, ect.
When Reagan calls the “prince of Rosh” he makes a mistake, this is not Russia, there is no evidence that Russia stems from the word Rosh, Rosh means head. Russia stems from the word Rus. Again he has a presupposition that can not be proven wrong.
Revelation talks about Gog and Magog, and the central location of the book is Turkey. So, once again Joel is correct.
Islam is the perfect antichrist system, Epistle of John states that an antichrist is one who denies that Jesus is the son of God. And Islam does that, so once again Joel has it correct.
Humanism is a 18th century belief system, not an ancient belief system. The ancient world view was around gods and goddess, everything stems from what they did or did not do. Humanism is the belief that man is the center of all things and that belief did not crop up until the 18th century. Dr. Reagan is wrong.
The beheading argument that Reagan brings up to “prove” Joel wrong, once again shows his own bias, he once again refers to a western event to prove that Rome is the empire of the end time, and he says that he has a universal mind set. He clearly has a western mindset, and his arguments and points prove this.
Humanism is a western belief. The French Revolution is a western Event. Roman Empire is a Western Empire.
In his attempt to refute a question by Shoebat, Dr, Reagan says Babylon is not a Muslim nation. Huh?
Babylon as a nation and city is in the heart of Iraq! Sorry, Rome!
January 7th, 2009 at 2:18 am
I wish Dr. Reagan would be willing to write a book with you Joel challenging both sides of view. I think alot could be learned. Maybe someone else would be willing like Jack Van Impe.
January 7th, 2009 at 7:30 am
Jon,
My pick would be Tommy Ice. My first pick was Mark Hitchcock, because I like his writing style the best, but Ron Rhodes also does a great job.
Paul,
Thanks for the lengthy defense. Regarding Babylon, Dr. Reagan ignored one key component of Walid’s challenge. Walid’s asks if anyone can cite any Literal reference for a European Nation that Christ judges in the end times. But “Babylon” is obviously an allegorical reference. And whether or not it is Rome is obviously an issue for debate. Dr. Walvoord does a good job of dispelling this claim in some of his works. But that’s for another time.
January 7th, 2009 at 10:48 am
I have to say that Dr. Reagan appears to have set out from the beginning to “prove” the old traditional viewpoint correct - a European antichrist. For example, regarding the argument that the armies that destroyed Jerusalem were made up of soldiers that were primarily Arabic, Reagan’s indepth, insightful response is simply “It doesn’t matter”.
He also sticks with the party line that Gog/Magog is before the Tribulation. I’m sorry, and maybe I might sound a little harsh here, but I’ve gotten to where it is so obvious to me that Gog/Magog is the 2nd half of the Tribulation, that as far as I’m concerned, anybody who claims to be an “expert” and yet has not sat down and analyzed Ezekiel 38-39 for themselves like I did (as just a “mere” layman) and who is too blinded by the politics of the Left Behind mentality to see the obvious connection between Gog/Magog and Armageddon is to be considered suspect in their entire prophetic scenario.
I’m sorry Joel, I don’t think you were given a fair hearing. And I say that as somebody who, just over 2 years ago, would have totally agreed with Dr. Reagan. I changed my mind because I was thinking about the whole world bowing to the Antichrist, other than the followers of Jesus, and I couldn’t figure out how the Muslims would fit into that, because any idiot who knows anything about Islam should know that they would never bow to a “European secular humanist. Apparently, Dr. Reagan hasn’t even really considered it. If he thinks the Muslims are going to become a non-issue because of a conveniently timed Russian invasion, then I’ve got some news for him.
Here’s something else that deeply disturbs me about people with Dr. Reagan’s mindset: Where is the concern for winning them to Christ? I see “Christians” all over the world getting all excited about the seemingly close relationship developing between Vladimir Putin and the Muslims, and the supposedly resultant annihilation at the hands of our loving Father. They’re actually looking forward to this happening! That kind of mentality is so counter to our Father’s everlasting love for all of His creations, that it only proves in another way how out of sync these people are with the God they claim to worship and the Bible they claim to believe, but don’t even know what it really says.
You’re on the right track Joel, keep going. There is a day coming when the whole Christian world is going to be standing around, aghast, wondering how they could have been so horribly wrong. I just pray that large numbers of them don’t fall for the Mahdi’s deception, believing him to not be the Antichrist because they were deluded by a lie taught be people like Dr. Reagan.
January 7th, 2009 at 11:08 am
I just finished reading Joel’s “antichrist” book. Joel, you are indeed an amazing writer and your book is easy to understand even if my english is not so good. Especially I appreciate your humble and friendly attitude and love towards muslims and the spirit of intercession. That kind of attitude is fruit of the Holy Spirit and I pray and wish that we all prophecy-students would have samekind of attitude.
I think we westerners are too proud to see that the Bible should be interpreted with an Eastern midset because it is collection of Eastern Scriptures with capital “E”. There was a time when I laughed to the idea that Islam would be the system of the final AC. Now, I have totally opposite mindset because God has really opened my eyes to see the truth.
“Roman” interpretation just doesn’t have enough sense when comparing it to the Biblical Truths regarding end-time.
Maybe some prophecy-scholars fear the interpretation with an eastern-midset because they fear that they would lose their “western mindset” -audience. But of course, we all should have an attitude that God knows best. Yes, it is true that God knows best, but it doesn’t mean that we can’t understan anything when it’s about end-time prophecies. As Bible tells us in book of Daniel that the end-time mysteries will be revealed in the end-times and I have seen already that God is revelaing them all the time through Eastern mindset.
Yes, and Islam is just a tool which AC will use and IS using at the moment in the Middle-East and the whole world. AC is lying even to his own followers because he is kind of “incarnation” of the father of all lies: satan.
I believe that satan doesn’t speak truth even for himself, but lies all the time. In the end the most powerful lies are half-truths and not “100%” lies and satan uses half-truths all the time because it would be very easy to regognize that satan is evil if he would show his horns and dark nature right away. But satan and AC is not behaving like that because they are deceivers. Deception works only if half-truths are used.
God bless you Joel!
January 7th, 2009 at 11:15 am
I want to correct this: “Deception works only if half-truths are used” to “I think that deception works BEST if half-truths are used”.
Of course “100%” lies works too. Satan is always putting some “light” to his dark lies. The sheep in the wolf’s clothes.
January 7th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
I have read the articles, and your book, and have a question for Dr. Reagan, if he reads these forums, and to anyone else if he doesn’t.
PG 8
“Context determines meaning, and the context of Revelation
13:7 clearly means that the Antichrist kingdom will be worldwide,
not just a regional coalition of Muslim nations.”
Since this has to be looked in context, one does not have to go very far in Revelation to see that this kingdom only exerts “authority” and not world wide ruler ship or kingship. In Revelation 16:14 we see this. “For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.”
So how then could the Antichrist exercise “authority” and cause world wide persecution without being the only direct “king” of the earth. If one understands that Islam is both political and Religious in nature, and sees the Antichrist as the head of the entire Islamic umma spiritually, while individual nations and countries continue to have “kings”, who have given him authority. It is simple to see a Middle eastern political block that exerts spiritual “authority” over the entire world, without technically ruling the world.
Clay and Iron
Since this spiritual authority would in include the body of Islamic teachings such as “Fight the unbelievers”, it also would be able to “… make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.” Rev 13:7
From page 9 of the PDF
“Richardson proceeds to say that he thinks that the Islamic world will just
simply be deceived into believing the Muslim Antichrist is God!
To me, that is like saying night is day and day is night.”
I would ask then, what will the Muslim world do with the Antichrist? If, as Dr. Reagan asserts, the Antichrist rules the entire world, then what will the Muslims do? There are 1.2 billion of them. Will they all throw away the Muslim theology and embrace the Antichrist, or are they the primary victims of the early devastation of the tribulation thus making their numbers irrelevant.
It is important to note, that the Antichrist will perform miracles, so that “And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men” Rev 13:13
There are examples of the cognitive dissonance within Islam already. From the pagan ritualistic throwing of stones at the devil, the pilgrimage of Mecca and the Kaba, Praying five times a day to a city, and many other forms of idolatry. Though they claim to worship one god, their behavior indicates another pattern.
It is therefore far easier for me to accept the idea that a miracle working Mahdi could, with the “proof” of miracles behind him, mostly unite the umma. Remember, one of the Miracles of the Antichrist is the miraculous healing of a fatal wound. How unreasonable is it to think that at this point the Antichrist would claim something along the lines of, “I Alla have chosen to inhabit this body so that you may see what you have believed in all this time. Worship me, for now I am among you.”
Hardly night is day and day is night.
January 7th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
Luke you said,
“I’m sorry, and maybe I might sound a little harsh here, but I’ve gotten to where it is so obvious to me that Gog/Magog is the 2nd half of the Tribulation, that as far as I’m concerned, anybody who claims to be an “expert” and yet has not sat down and analyzed Ezekiel 38-39 for themselves like I did (as just a “mere” layman) and who is too blinded by the politics of the Left Behind mentality to see the obvious connection between Gog/Magog and Armageddon is to be considered suspect in their entire prophetic scenario.”
100% agreed!!! The events of Ez 38-39 encompass the entire last 3.5 years, beginning with the abomination of desolation (the crown jewel - and hidden purpose, imo - of the Gog invasion) and ending with divine judgment and Messiah’s return. If one sits down with no preconceptions and just studies as if for the first time, it all fits like a glove. And I also feel strongly that the book of Joel can be read as a sort of parallel book to those two chapters, in that it begins with an invasion from the north and ends with God’s army. And interestingly, it also includes a cessation of sacrifice.
And here’s a real clincher - an end result of God’s intervention is that His holy name is profaned no longer. Tell me, then, if the Gog war occurs before or at the onset of the last seven years, how on earth do we get around the fact that God’s holy name is profaned throughout those last seven years?
I agree also with you, Luke, that clinging to the notion that the AC is a Roman simply because Daniel says that the temple will be destroyed by his people is flimsy, considering that the legions employed by the Romans to do so were largely local.
You also said “There is a day coming when the whole Christian world is going to be standing around, aghast, wondering how they could have been so horribly wrong.”
A chilling prospect - because most Christians (including myself) for many years were spoon fed what has become the mainstream interpretation of prophecy, I’m afraid you might be absolutely right.
Interestingly, Dr. Reagan implied arrogance on Joel’s part for his “private” interpretation, when in reality the refusal to entertain another viewpoint smacks of it. His dismissal of the eastern perspective concerning eschatology is VERY disappointing and here’s why -
If putting scripture into its proper geographical, historical and sociological perspective is worthless, then why do seminaries teach Greek and Hebrew? Why are we taught that we can enhance our understanding by exploring the depth of Greek definitions or Hebrew idioms? Why aren’t the English versions good enough to stand alone? Guess we rely on that eastern perspective after all, don’t we, in our most basic of theological studies. Or maybe we should all just throw out our Strong’s, our parallel Bibles and our books on Biblical manners and customs.
And another thing - he says that the likes of the “prewrath” rapture (and I assume he feels the same about the post trib position) is renegade and fleeting and will subsequently fade as such…and here I thought the idea of a pretrib rapture was the more recent, contemporary one, and rather bereft of documented historical longevity.
January 7th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
agrace, to pick up sort of where you left off, I would even go so far as to suggest that the “Left Behind” scenario that so many Christians stubbornly (or ignorantly) cling to is going to be partly responsible for the great “falling away” that Paul spoke of in II Thessalonians 2.
When the Antichrist appears on the scene and presents himself as Islam’s “Mahdi”, and has the ability to work miracles, such as the Bible speaks of him and the False Prophet (Islam’s “Isa”) both doing, many many believers will look around and will say (1) He’s not from Europe and he’s not a secular humanist plus (2) I haven’t been Raptured, so therefore this cannot be the Tribulation and this guy cannot be the Antichrist, therefore these miracles he’s working prove that he’s the real thing, so we must have had it wrong all along, just like “Isa” is telling us.
I wouldn’t be the LEAST bit surprised at that point to see a mass exodus from the Church (or should I say church, lower case “c”?) to Islam.
It will be a very dark day indeed and will reveal the true nature of the absolutely brilliant deception that Satan has placed on us all through the Pre-Trib belief and a European Antichrist.
January 7th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
The “left behind” mentality of many Christians shows an arrogance of being right, and of a sick enjoyment of watching the world burn in God’s Judgment. To them it is nothing but a movie to be expected.
That is why I have rejected the rapture, that belief embodies this sickness. The belief that Christians will be taken away while the world burns, the belief that we sit in heaven, eating and drinking in merry, being given gifts, while God destroys the world, is a sick thought. It is no better than the myth of Nero playing the fiddle while Rome burns. We might as well.
It presents Christians as haughty and entitled to the riches of God, that we cease to care about the world around us. We play the fiddle while the world burns.
They want it, they dream of it, they live for it, they delude themselves in this belief of entitlement: yearning to play the fiddle while the world burns.
I believe God will only destroy those who want to destroy Israel. I believe those who survive the judgment will live on when Christ sets up his kingdom. That means if you are not killed either by the war or by other means during that time period, you will live on, whether you are “saved” or not.
I do not believe in universalism as it is stated today, but the bible seems to state that when the Day of the Lord is over, those who live will live on.
Zechariah 14 shows that Egypt will disobey and they will not be given rain, that means we can still disobey while Christ reigns on earth. But there is punishment for doing so.
This tells me that mankind continues on, and it seems to be in the state we are in now (some call this the “1,000 years”) I do not believe that is literal. But this goes to show that we will not be drinking and eating while the world burns, but the world will live on.
I do believe what many are saying is true, that the “roman” theory, will create a lot of problems one day. I do believe what is now protestantism will cease to exist, and from what i am learning and seeing, I fear it will be true.
I do believe the “two witnesses” are not men, but two churches. Today there are three churches that still exist from Revelation chapter 3. Catholicism/Orthodoxy (Sardis). Jewish Church (Philadelphia). Protestantism (Laodicea). Laodicea is the Protestant Church and it will be removed before the return of Christ.
The two witnesses are called two lampstands, the seven churches are called the seven lampstands. If you follow them in order, three are remaining and one of them will be removed, leaving two, the two witnesses.
What is going on today in the churches of Protestantism is leading to its own destruction.
January 8th, 2009 at 2:52 am
I have to say Dr. Reagan takes this way too seriously, i think that is the problem.
He just gives too much ammo to use against him for sarcasm and to make fun of him, because he takes it too seriously.
Dr. Reagan and others like him made a living of preparing people to play the fiddle while the world will burn, that the idea of not playing a fiddle at all offends them.
To say “It is Roman” or none at all, is foolish. By holding to such a claim, especially for a topic that is not eternal and yet holding on to it as if the end of the world will come if they drop it for something else, just shows how ironic and foolish they really are.
I bet the end will come if they changed their mind, too!
Jack Van Impe, Dr. Reagan and others, have invested their life into their belief, that the idea of them changing will end their livelihood. I have followed most of them, and it is interesting how far they will go to ensure their belief is maintained.
I watched one guy, who read many early church writings and he argued that “pretribulational rapture tribulation” was taught. So I read it and found the passage he used to “prove” his belief, by separating it, he had “proved” his point, but in context it had nothing to do with his view. He was saying that the Barbarian Invasion of Rome was the “end times” and that Christ would return around that time period. So I concluded this guy was a liar and it had to been done intentionally, there was no way it could have been done by misreading it.
There is a deception that goes on with many of them, to hold on to this view at all cost. I see it with Reagan as well. As I pointed out earlier, he needs to hold onto his view or the end will really come. He can not afford to take any view seriously, to do so would be to give them credibility, therefore, he will be Pepsi endorsing Coke.
Therefore, he has to scorn all other beliefs.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:18 am
Regarding Ez 38-39: A few months ago I got into a discussion with a very traditional friend about the temple in Ez 40 and following. As I was pressing into the Lord about it for direction, He opened up some notions to me (as well as some facts about that temple) that still shake me to the core but I’m not at all sure how to put onto a timeline.
The bottom line about what He’d told me was that the visions of Ezekiel are in chronological sequence and will unfold in that order. Timing is something different, but the pattern is just as it will be in scripture.
That necessarily means that Ez 36 and 37 will have to be made clear before 39 and 39 unfold. I’m just giving you this because He gave it to me that way. I purposefully started seeking Him about it with no agenda or wanting to ‘prove’ anything to anyone. Just seeking Truth that I can give freely as He gives to me.
With that in mind, is it necessary for us to ’shake up the snow globe’ and let the pieces fall into that order for a proper understanding? I think so.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:18 am
Regarding Ez 38-39: A few months ago I got into a discussion with a very traditional friend about the temple in Ez 40 and following. As I was pressing into the Lord about it for direction, He opened up some notions to me (as well as some facts about that temple) that still shake me to the core but I’m not at all sure how to put onto a timeline.
The bottom line about what He’d told me was that the visions of Ezekiel are in chronological sequence and will unfold in that order. Timing is something different, but the pattern is just as it will be in scripture.
That necessarily means that Ez 36 and 37 will have to be made clear before 39 and 39 unfold. I’m just giving you this because He gave it to me that way. I purposefully started seeking Him about it with no agenda or wanting to ‘prove’ anything to anyone. Just seeking Truth that I can give freely as He gives to me.
With that in mind, is it necessary for us to ’shake up the snow globe’ and let the pieces fall into that order for a proper understanding? I think so.
January 8th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Regarding Ez 38-39: A few months ago I got into a discussion with a very traditional friend about the temple in Ez 40 and following. As I was pressing into the Lord about it for direction, He opened up some notions to me (as well as some facts about that temple) that still shake me to the core but I’m not at all sure how to put onto a timeline.
The bottom line about what He’d told me was that the visions of Ezekiel are in chronological sequence and will unfold in that order. Timing is something different, but the pattern is just as it will be in scripture.
That necessarily means that Ez 36 and 37 will have to be made clear before 39 and 39 unfold. I’m just giving you this because He gave it to me that way. I purposefully started seeking Him about it with no agenda or wanting to ‘prove’ anything to anyone. Just seeking Truth that I can give freely as He gives to me.
With that in mind, is it necessary for us to ’shake up the snow globe’ and let the pieces fall into that order for a proper understanding? I think so.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:45 am
Screaming Eagle - I have for a long time looked at the last few chapters of Ezekiel as chronological. I just can’t get away from it. The true chronology is as you say - ch 36–>to the rebuilt temple chapters, but even earlier, from the point where God defines Ezekiel’s calling as a watchman, God begins to define how things will go for Israel’s neighbors in the end and why they are being judged (He gives historical overview), and in a way, each chapter expands the judgment further out geographically. I see it as follows -
ch 33 - Ezekiel’s appointment as watchman.
ch 34 - God’s pronouncement against Israel’s leaders and how through their sinful mishandling of things they’ve allowed for the “sheep” to be scattered all over the world.
ch 35 - God’s pronouncement against Israel’s immediate neighbors - Mt Seir and Edom - modern Palestinians etc (interesting to note that God says of these people - “because of your longstanding hatred, because you pursued Israelite blood, because you hated your own blood - distant Israelite brethren, blood will pursue you” - does that not sound like today’s Hamas/Hezbollah/Fatah etc mindset?).
ch 36 - God’s promise to restore the land, and He specifically addresses the mts of Israel and how they have been taken by Israel’s enemies - ie the West Bank, to put a modern spin on it, and He promises to rebloom them and fill them up with Israelites again.
ch 37 - the rebirth, restoration and rejoining of the two houses of Israel and their companions (Gentiles) - this still has not come to pass, if one studies this topic extensively - the house of Judah is in the land but the house of Israel is still scattered and seemingly lost among the nations. Even the Jewish rabbis teach and expect a further regathering of the “lost” tribes and reunion of the two houses.
*side note - whenever I read about the dry bones, I can’t help but think of the holocaust photos that showed huge gruesome piles of skeletons. I can imagine that at the time, the average Jew thought that a homeland and a revival of his people was completely unimaginable, just as Ezekiel despaired and then watched in amazement as the breath entered them.
ch 38-39 - once this regathering is accomplished, Gog attacks, and by the end of the war, the entire world knows that God is God.
ch 40 and beyond - the temple is rebuilt to divine specifications and the Shekinah glory returns to the temple in ch 43 (remember in ch 10, Ezekiel watches it leave before the Babylonian sacking of Jerusalem).
*Also interesting to note that the glory comes through the eastern gate, which in ch 44, God tells Ezekiel will remain shut - only the “prince” can come through it. As a result, Jews believe that the Messiah will enter the temple mount via this gate (called the Golden Gate), and centuries ago it was sealed up by Muslims and a graveyard planted in front of it to prevent this very thing. One day Messiah, coming from the east (see Isaiah 63), will probably blast that thing right open. What a great visual.
Paul, you said “Jack Van Impe, Dr. Reagan and others, have invested their life into their belief, that the idea of them changing will end their livelihood.”
I agree - and with that in mind I feel for these prophecy teachers who have so much invested in their viewpoints, all the books, teaching series, interviews, etc. I’m sure it’s not a pretty place to be, where you have to entertain the idea that decades of income was based on a false premise.
And that’s not to say that any of us has it all figured out - we all run the risk of prideful dogmatism. So above all else, as a part of study, I want to ALWAYS retain the humility to say I was wrong.
And I think that unless God dictates otherwise, as He did with the specific numeric prophecies of Daniel and Messiah’s first coming, for example, that He doesn’t necessarily want us to figure things out ahead of time, but rather, He wants to show us His glory when we look back and say, Oh, so THAT’S what that meant! Which means none of us will know how it will all fit, until it actually happens, and then it will serve as a guide for our steps forward and a sustenance for our faith, because by then, we’re really going to need both.
January 8th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
agrace said - “I feel for these prophecy teachers who have so much invested in their viewpoints, all the books, teaching series, interviews, etc. I’m sure it’s not a pretty place to be, where you have to entertain the idea that decades of income was based on a false premise.”
Agreed, but the problem here is that those people are putting their reputation, income and lifestyle ahead of the Truth. The fact is that if they were to simply admit they were wrong, their followers would mostly go along with it, just because their favorite personality says so. (That’s a problem with believers right there, that whatever so-and-so says dictates what they’ll believe.)
But out of fear of losing influence, they will stubbornly cling to old, outdated positions and will consequently lead their flock into a lie - which is precisely what the Pharisees were guilty of.
We need leaders in the praying Church who are not afraid to look the Truth in the eye and admit their own mistakes when the time come. I did two years ago, and would gladly do it again now if somebody were to show me a good reason for doing so.
Luke
January 8th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
The main thing that annoys me about certain prophecy analysts is their unintended arrogance. Imagine the pride of someone who claims to know exactly what God meant when He handed down prophetic scripture.
No one can know for sure the meaning of every prophecy regarding the end times. I think Joel makes a very compelling argument for Islam’s role in the Bible prophecy. I have my disagreements with some of Joel’s prophetic beliefs (namely Gog/Magog as Armageddon), but I am at least open to the possibility that maybe Joel is right and I am wrong…and that’s OK because we’re on the same side spiritually and not in a competition.
The Bible is 100% truth, and holding solidly to personal convictions is an essential Christian quality; however, we must all admit that there are certain things in regards to certain prophecies that we won’t understand completely until they take place. Those analysts who think they’ve got it all figured out and refuse to acknowledge other legitimate interpretations are walking a fine line between stubbornness and pride.
January 8th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Joel:
Do you know much about Chuck Missler of Koinonia House?
http://www.khouse.org/
You might consider him to co-author a book with you.
Chuck is very interesting. He pretty much mirrors Dr. Reagan in his end-time theories. Just a thought.
January 8th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
Luke -
Agreed - very hard but necessary decisions need to be made. Reminds me of the rich man who turned away from Jesus in sorrow because he couldn’t bear to give up his stuff.
Tim Wa -
Funny you mention Chuck Missler - currently he’s got two articles on the new “Beast from the East” site, indicating that he certainly willing to entertain other viewpoints. He concludes his two part article as follows -
“With the current world turmoil surrounding Iraq and the Middle East, it is likely that the coming months and years will bring some striking changes. It is essential that we stand back from our presumptions and prejudices and listen carefully to what the Biblical text is telling us. We are living in exciting times, but we need to be diligent in our study of God’s Word. The only certain barrier to truth is the presumption that we already have it.”
Very well said, I think!
When I saw him on Beast from the East I was pleasantly surprised because during my pretrib/revived Roman Empire eschatological years he was my favorite, and although I disagree fundamentally with several of his viewpoints these days, some of his studies are outstanding - he often digs into details like some scriptural archeologist.
January 8th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
agrace -
Thanks for the info on Chuck. I have found him to be extremely interesting with all his charts, time-lines and additional facts on history, science, time & space. I am hopeful that he would consider the rise of Islam in his end-time theories and reconsider his stance on Rome - Babylon, the European union - AC and Russia as the army of the north Magog.
January 8th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
JCT,
Amen. I am not interested in converting anyone to my position, just a humble consideration and openness is all I am asking. The arena of eschatology is perhaps the one arena of theology that we must never become too rigid in our views. This was perhaps the greatest error of the Pharisees when Christ came in century one.
Tim,
I believe that Chuck Missler has come over to the Islamic position recently. If this is the case, it speaks very highly of his character in that he has taught otherwise for many years.
January 8th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
JCT,
Amen. I am not interested in converting anyone to my position, just a humble consideration and openness is all I am asking. The arena of eschatology is perhaps the one arena of theology that we must never become too rigid in our views. This was perhaps the greatest error of the Pharisees when Christ came in century one.
Tim,
I do believe that Chuck Missler has come over to the Islamic position recently. Which speaks very highly of his character in that he has taught otherwise for many years.
January 8th, 2009 at 4:14 pm
Luke,
I wanted to chime in and agree whole heartedly with the comments you made yesterday concerning the deceptions likely to fall on the Church when there’s no European Antichrist and the Church finds herself here when the Islamic one shows up.
I am extremely concerned as a pastor that the Church will go through a period of doubt that would only be furthered by “Isa” and his demonic remarks and miracles set up by the world and by those within the Church, while unintentionally in some cases, have led people astray. I fully expect the force of Satan to be manifested through the hidden “Imam Al-Mahdi” and someone who gathers a following of muslims declaring another “beast” to be Christ when in fact he’s Isa: the false prophet. I think the appropriate title of a book warning of such would be, “Wolf in Shepherds Clothing.”
When you consider the vast amount of mis-information about who Jesus is as promoted through the efforts of our media to the History and Discorvery Channels, Dan Brown’s DaVinci Code and of course there’s the Iranian movie about Isa, it wouldn’t be a surprise to me that the world would look at a so called peace-loving, “moderate at first” sounding “prophet” claiming to be Jesus of Nazareth with a huge Islamic following as the real deal.
I also worry because I see the world’s influence in the local congregation and denomination to the extent that the Church is in some cases on shakey ground about Jesus and His return. I don’t think you are over stating your concern too much at all when you proposed that the “left behind” stuff may aid to the confusion and ultimately cause the Church damage.
There are Christians that would rather pick up one of those books to read for a look into the future rather than God’s word. In my denominational structure, there’s no real concrete position either way. So, people are “out to lunch” when it comes to anything eschatological. If we don’t believe anything, then we’ll fall for anything! We are being set up big time here and we’ve got to get the virus out of our system!
It seems that Satan has worked overtime to confuse the world about Jesus in general. And he seems to have worked especially hard to confuse the circumstances around His coming to the point that we have people, WHO KNOW BETTER, continuing to teach the same pile of mess. It’s beyond me to know how someone like Jack VanImpe, with all of his knowledge and plain interpretation of the Scripture, could continue to avoid passages that don’t support his position.
For example, II Thessalonians 2:8… “Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;” I occaisonally have run into a person or two who has a little knowledge of the inside of some of these ministries and I’ve heard on more than one occaision that the leaders know better but they’d lose everything if they went the other way on things. It’s just sad!
So, I’ve been more concerned about this False Prophet Isa than I have about Mahdi for just this reason. It appears that the world is being set up to accept a confused limp wristed (at first) Jesus who tells the Church they’ve had it all wrong for the last 2000 years rather than the one who comes bearing the standard of truth and who will judge the nations bringing true peace and righteousness. And if the Church is expected to be out of here by the time all this goes down, there are going to be a lot of confused and upset people to deal with.
I also worry that when Perry Stone for example has to admit before his entire audience that the pre-tribulation view of the Church is wrong and all the vast materials he’s sold defending that position are proven wrong by the fact that the beast and his false prophet are obviously before us, that nobody will ever listen to anything else he says, or for that matter, other leaders in the Church who we need and who have solid ministry and guidance to give will be looked upon as un-trustworthy. I’m not trying to beat up on Perry or Jack. But I see the same thing you do and I’m equally concerned.
There’s a book I’ve ordered on Amazon called “The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church” by Marvin J. Rosenthal. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of him but he writes for “Zion’s Fire” magazine. He’s written some good articles on the connection between the Olivet Discourse and it’s connection with Revelation 6. In the latest edition, he handles the rapture question with shere beauty. He’s definately worth checking out!
Let’s pray that we get this Trojan Horse out of our camp so it doesn’t damage us when all this comes down!
God’s peace and blessings
January 8th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
Luke stated - “Agreed, but the problem here is that those people are putting their reputation, income and lifestyle ahead of the Truth.”
I’m have to strongly disagree with that statement. Your view on prophecy is not necessarily fact; these events have yet to happen. It is your view of how it will happen, much like my own view. Only GOD will reveal how these things actually play out. The prophecies give us a guide/glimpse and most people that study these have the same basic understanding of these events, but disagree on certain elements. I do not believe any of us can sit there and state that these things will DEFINATELY play out in this way… We can debate and disagree, but when you state your view on prophecy is truth, then, you are essentially saying you are a prophet of GOD.
January 8th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
I agree with the idea of staying fluid and open regarding eschatology…
I’ve been watching for close to 20 years now. I am betting that all
of us will be surprised at how the future will unfold. We will see our
expectations fulfilled literally, figuratively and not at all…and then some. I’m betting that Dr. Reagan will be right about some things and wrong about others,just like the rest of us.
I’m revisiting expectations from 10 years ago and seeing how it can all work!…and as for Islam, for 2009, it appears to be a good fit in many ways. Having said that, I can see how pieces of a Roman scenario could work right along with the Islamic element.
I’m holding it all in my heart and watching. Remember the predicted
Messiah was to be “called a Nazarene”, while “called out of Egypt”, and
“coming out of Bethlehem”..this alone is enough to keep us all humble!
January 8th, 2009 at 8:20 pm
PETELIUZ - Now, be sure to follow-up Joel’s A/C book with he & Walid’s ‘God’s War on Terror.’ It is excellent how it all works together in harmony to make us see Scripture from a whole new perspective.
I’m sad, as so many have pointed out above, at how stuck & rigid in their ways these older scholars can be. Instead of openly discussing the possibilities of what you’ve opened up in God’s Word, they’re set in their own point of view. How he could say that 2 Thess. 2:3-4 firmly discounts any possibility of the A/C being Islamic is amazing to me! It further establishes his obvious bias to only his way of thinking on this matter.
I commend your humility and love towards him, Joel. I pray to be that kind when someone assaults me so vehemently. Honest, he was almost rude in some of his comments about you! One commentator above even said what I wondered as to whether he even read your book or just took the “Cliff Notes” version! Well-said, Pigpen. You certainly have MANY well-educated, Spirit-filled and God-loving fans on this site. It’s one of the reasons I enjoy visiting it so frequently.
Blessings to you and your family and THANK YOU for all your hard work in keeping us so well informed and united in His Body, Joel.
January 8th, 2009 at 8:20 pm
Excellent discussion!
I appreciate the humility and civil tone (as opposed to the dogmatic rantings I have encountered on other websites when opposing views are “discussed.”) I credit Joel for setting the right tone for civil discourse, not only in his books but in his posts on this website as well.
However, we need to always be on guard that the spirits of pride and “intellectual arrogance,” etc. never creep into our discussions.
In that regard, here are just a few phrases that I find it useful to meditate on before beginning any discussion with people holding a differeing view than mine (especially when dealing with eschatology):
The only certain barrier to truth is the presumption that we already have it. - Chuck Meisler
“There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know. The proverb has been traced back in English to 1546 (John Heywood), In 1738, it was used by Jonathan Swift in his ‘Polite Conversation,’ and is first attested in the United States in the 1713 ‘Works of Thomas Chalkley’…”
Which of course leads us to the following verses from scripture:
Matthew 13:13
13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand
Jeremiah 5:21
Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:
Isaiah 6:9-10
And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear you indeed, but understand not; and see indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
and of course:
9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
Therefore, fellow readers of Joel’s Trumpet, let us always remember to proceed with humility and a genuine desire and love for “”The Truth” (Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. - John 14:6)
If we do this, we will avoid the rancor which pride, arrogance, etc. produces and in this way honor not only Our Lord and Saviour but also Joel in his efforts to be a thoughtful and humble witness to the world in general and especially to the Muslims.
John
January 8th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
I’ve commented on this in the past but having now read ‘God’s War on Terror’ through twice thoroughly I am convinced that our Lord and His Spirit have used Joel & Walid to open Scripture to interpretation that Daniel was told by the angel was “closed until the end-times.” When Walid states that from his Middle Eastern perspective he saw things in God’s Word that us westerners would never have seen I am in total awe at how taken by that I have been. Yes, the Word is to be seen in its truth and fullness by anybody who is Spirit-filled but there have been mysteries that until now were unexplainable, as the angel said it would be (to Daniel and to John in Revelation). Reagan sees that as being narrow-minded in that “only these two men see it that way” but I disagree with him there. He’s certainly not aware of all the support we are seeing to this perspective. The minor prophets (Hosea, Joel, Amos, etc.) are also opened to new light in view of our present political surroundings like never before.
Again, I am so very grateful for the efforts these obedient men of God have made in opening up these interpretations for us. May the Church of Jesus Christ be led to new awarenesses and excitement in sharing the wisdom we have gained for ’such a time as this!’ God bless us all and MARANATHA!
January 8th, 2009 at 9:12 pm
John,
Gina,
Amen. Bless you both!
January 9th, 2009 at 1:20 am
So, aren’t there any modern men and women with the office of God’s prophet today who can declare the truth?
Here’s some for Dr. Reagan with regard to rapturism because I find him to be arrogant and obnoxious and because his view is the one which is renegade, fleeting and subsequently going to fade…
The Lord’s coming is consistently protrayed as a singular event. The Bible is repetitively consistent on that fact:
“And what shall be the sign of thy coming?” (Matt. 24:3);
“so shall also coming ofthe Son of man be” (Matt.24:27,37,39);
“afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming” (I Cor. 15:23);
“in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming (I Thess. 2:19);
“at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (I Thess. 3:13);
“we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord” (I Thess. 4:15);
“and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (I Thess. 5:23)
“Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (II Thess. 2:1)
“whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming” (II Thess. 2:8)
“Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming o fthe Lord” (James 5:7)
“The coming of the Lord draweth nigh” (James 5:8)
“when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (II Peter 1:16);
“Where is the promise of his coming” (II Peter 3:4);
“Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God” (II Peter 3:12)
“we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming” (I John 2:28).
In each and every instance, the word “coming” (Parousia) is either modified by the personal pronoun “his” or “thy” or, most often with the definite article “the.” And in every case, the Lord’s return in in the singular; NOT coming(s) but “Coming.” There in not even a hint anywhere of two separate comings thus the notion that Christ will come first for His Church and then return yet again, a third time seven years later with His Church. This theology is nothing more than a system developed outside the Scriptures and then imposed upon them.
There is clear evidence that there is a coming (parousia) of Christ sometime after the middle of the 70th week. The Lord said:
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in the heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and tehy shall see the Son of man COMING in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” (Matt. 24:29-30).
For pretribulation rapturism to stand, among other things, two points must be demonstrated: First, that there are two second comings, or a second and a third, for there would have to be one following the Great Tribulation; and, second there would have to be one prior to the beginning of the 70th week. Not only does no such biblical evidence exist; it clearly contradicts the Word of God!
Since the Rapture of the Church is directly related to Christ’s coming (parousia, I Thess. 3:13, 5:23; II Thess. 2:1), and the demonstrable coming (parousia) occurs sometime after the middle of the 70th week and following the Great Tribulation (more specifically before the opening of the 7th seal, (Matt. 24:27; Rev. 6:12-17), so, too, the Rapture must occur beyond the middle of the 70th week of Daniel, but before the outpouring of the wrath of God known as the day of the Lord.
No one can know the day or the hour of Christ’s coming. That of course is clearly taught by the Lord Himself (Matt. 24:36-27). However, we are to know the general time period of Christ’s coming. That is also taught by the Lord (Matt. 24:32-33). Paul warned the Thessalonians that the Lord’s coming, his “parousia” would be like a thief in the night (I Thess. 5:2). Then He explained both the response of the saved and the unsaved to the Lord’s coming. Concerning the unsaved He said, “For when they (the unsaved) shall say peace and safety; then sudden destruction will come upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape” (I Thess. 5:3). The picture Paul is portraying is of an unsaved world caught completely off guard and unprepared for Christ’s return.
But of the saved of God he wrote, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of the light, and children of the day; we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore, let us not sleep, as do others (the unsaved); but let us (the saved of God) watch and be sober.” (I Thess. 5:4-6).
No amount of rationalizing can explain away the fact that if the coming of the Lord is imminent and pretribulational, He will, of an absolute necessity, return as “a thief in the night” even for those who believe on His Name! The Pauline admonition to watchfulness for an event which has no prophesied events to precede it would be the ultimate exercise in futility.
If on the other hand, Christ’s coming and Rapture of His Church occur after the events of Matt. 24:9-28, just prior to the opening of the 7th seal, then the Lord’s words make perfect sense: “So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it (The Parousia) is near, even at the door.” (Matt. 24:33). That day need not overtake a believer like ” a thief in the night” precisely because events of the age will announce the approach of Christ in all His glory. We won’t know the day or the hour, but we’ll recognize the season.
In clearest possible way, if there is only one coming, the doctrine of imminency is destroyed by the question posed by the disciples when they asked Jesus, “What shall be the sign of thy coming?” Signs are miracles or wonders given to authenticate divine truth (Isa. 7:14). In this case, the disciples asked concerning the sign of His coming. Since the sign must precede the coming, and the Rapture of the Church is tied to His coming, the Rapture of the Church cannot and will not be signless. And imminency, which is said to be the central pillar of pretribulational rapturism, is once again put in its place.
January 9th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
Jeremiah,
What is wrong with people believing that the Bible leaves clues to a Pre-Trib Rapture. Those that do not believe this seem down right excited to through this in their (those that believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture) face! Are you of the opinion, that I have seen so often on this sight, that a Pre-Trib Rapture is the very basis for their faith?? Does believing the Bible teaches a Pre-Trib Rapture take away the fact that Christ died for our sins and all we need to do is repent and accept him as our savior?
I have seen so many people on here state that those that believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture will lose their faith in God when they are left behind to live during the Tribulation. By stating this you are saying that those that believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture actually hold no faith in Christ, but rather an act that he will perform in the future…how absolutely insulting and belittling to these people’s faith that is to say!
January 9th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
I don’t think anyone is saying there is absolutely nothing in Scripture that could raise the question of the possibility of a pre-trib rapture of the Church. I could probably develop a list of references that might lead faithful men and women to consider that direction. My experience in the review of some of these references and their use leads me to seriously suspect isogesis and gross imposition of personal preference upon the Scripture in some cases. Would I like to make an exit prior to the 70th week? You bet. But I believe the Lord directs the readers of Scripture in a different direction.
You asked, “Are you of the opinion, that I have seen so often on this sight, that a Pre-Trib Rapture is the very basis for their faith??”
Hopefully nobody basis their faith on a particular view of the Rapture of the Church but rather draws hope from the fact we will be raptured indeed. I certainly don’t believe that pre-trib Christians undergert their faith in Christ based upon their being gathered away to God before tribulation. As I’m sure you’d agree, faith in the Lord for salvation of the soul is more important than rapture chronology. My main concern and calling/gifting, and I say this with humility, is to discern potential problems and raise a standard. Now that’s a huge deal and it’s amazing that God uses flawed human beings to do that, but He does and this is who I am.
You also asked, “Does believing the Bible teaches a Pre-Trib Rapture take away the fact that Christ died for our sins and all we need to do is repent and accept him as our savior?”
I’m not sure where you may have gathered up the idea that I believe the salvific plan of God is based upon a particular rapture view. Maybe you’ve encountered someone somewhere like that, but that’s not me. My concern as I have stated is the extremely deep deception in the scenario that this Islamic paradigm presents us with combined with a teaching that could and likely would leave people with a sense of fear and doubt. There’s already enough of that being spread around combined with a lack of even general Bible knowledge. I see the Church in some cases as a sitting duck because people don’t know what the Word of God says about things I could easily take for granted as common knowledge to the Christian.
I want to make this very clear that I’m not saying people will absolutely, without exception lose their faith when they find they are still here and not raptured away. As I said before, our trust in Christ goes much deeper than the opposing view points on rapture. I used to hold to a pre-trib rapture view and a theology of immanancy with no signs but I always left room for the possibility of being wrong as I’m sure most of us attempt to do with the same humility.
Even in that theological posture, I wouldn’t lose my faith if I were suddenly surprised at being here to see Antichrist. The doctrine of Sanctification demands of us that we understand we are all in a different place in our faith, as Wesley said, “going on to perfection” toward final glory. I’m sure you can relate to that as I can. My concern is for those young people and life long pew sitters who are in the infancy of their faith.
It was a tough transition from a seminary that produces idealists to practical ministry that made me a realist. As a pastor who’s gotten his hands dirty with real time ministry, I recognize the dier need for the Church to know Jesus and the things He said inside and out to the extent that the laity can stand up to the battle we have ahead of us.
I once counceled a teenage couple who were becoming parents out of wedlock. She was scared to death. I remember talking with her about what the experience of Mary must have been like to have carried Jesus in the womb during her time period and context. As I assured her of the Lord’s care for her, she asked me, “Who’s Mary and Joseph?” This is the kind of stuff I’m talking about. These kids were Christians by profession of faith no less.
I’ve encountered every different kind of theology up and down the board that we could all imagine right inside the walls of the local Church. Some of it is a set up for a fall. And there are life long Christians who will struggle. If the deception is powerful enough to “decieve even the elect if the time were not shortened,” then we have to be prepared like never before. 9/11 will be a cake walk compared to the events Jesus described. I’m assuming you’ve read Joel’s first work. Consider the stories of those who left the faith after 9/11 that he documents toward the beginning of the book. God forbid that ever happen on a massive scale. I just want us to be ready and armed when this comes because we can both see that it is coming.
January 9th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Gideon,
I am a former pretribber. I find pretribulation now to be a huge deception. I don’t find this to be insulting at all, but A FACT, that many people during hardship lose their faith. And actually the Bible says that during the Tribulation, many will lose their faith. The Bible teaches us to watch, to be prepared. Watch and prepare for what if there are no events before the Rapture. I find pretribulation to be very immature and dangerous, most pretribbers just sit and look at the heaven “with their bags packed”, nowhere in the Bible we find this attitude. It is easy to have “faith” when living comfortably in rich western countries; throw in a little persecution, and then we see who keeps the faith. Gold and silver are refined through fire. There have always been persecutions and tribulations for millennia and believers shone like stars through them.
Bless you brother.
January 9th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
I agree whole heartily in the rapture theory being a deception.
Checkout my blog, i wrote about it. I think if you click on my name it will take you there.
January 9th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
Gideon,
I’m one of those people you talk about. I’m so sorry, and I regret
the fact that I’ve offended. You are my primary reason for rethinking
the whole “catastrophic deception” scenario. We can disagree about
this teaching (rapture). I do believe you make a good point regarding
born again Christians and their ability to adapt. I’m confident that if
the AC is revealed tomorrow and all of hell rains down on planet
Earth…you will figure it out quickly, (you will not bow down out of disappointment and worship Satan) you will become an “over comer”
and reign with Jesus because you belong to HIM!
Blessings
January 9th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
Jeremiah,
well said!…Your story about the young couple was sobering!
Knowing GOD’s word is always an advantage, but even then it’s
not a guarantee of anything. My very best buddy was the most
knowledgeable person I knew regarding the WORD. She some how
fell prey to false teaching…(I read the same books she read)..and
it’s funny how life happens because it was this friend who opened
my eyes regarding many false teachings. Together we discovered
the truth regarding the Rapture, and yet a couple of Jewish
teachers were able to convince her that Jesus was a hoax! Then
before ‘ya know it she had thrown out the whole Bible!
I was there and yet they did not convince me…The Lord later told
me in the most certain of ways to let her go AND stay away from
Her. This was very painful! Many years later she is still “street
fighting” for the enemy…Unfortunately she’s a gifted writer!
This is just more evidence for me to believe that GOD holds on to
HIS own…and the prophesying Believer may or may not be HIS…
this is why TESTING is necessary. Some make it, others don’t…
January 9th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
To clarify things a bit, I believe in a Rapture timing that is both Post-Trib and Pre-Wrath. From what I remember, Joel believes the same. In a twinkling of an eye we are changed and caught up in the clouds together with the resurrected believers where we meet the Lord and then we go to Jerusalem.
January 9th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
Jeremiah,
very good post on the rapture, the only thing I would add to it is that Christ admonished people for not knowing of his first coming, I think he’d admonish those Christians who don’t look for the signs he gave us for his second coming as well.
Gideon,
There are a few things that worry me about those who teach the pre-trib rapture. It’s an issue that usually raises tempers, just try and tell people on a rapture ready site anything else and you’d be laughed off the site. The things that bother me about it, is that the teaching is only a couple of hundred years old, and you only find it in western sources. Also I’ve seen quite a few “prophecy” teachers who state that “if you don’t believe in the pre-trib rapture, you don’t believe your bible”. What will happen to the faith of these people who think that the bible lied to them when the rapture doesn’t occur? These teachers should be exhorting people to be prepared to live through the tribulation, and if necessary give their lives for their faith. Because that’s essentially what we are talking about, martyrdom.
This also follows those who believe in the revived roman empire. What will happen to Christianity in general when the antichrist comes out of the Middle East instead of Europe? Ever since finding Joel’s book online I’ve been trying to share this knowledge with all Christians that I know. Most people roll their eyes at me, and very few take it seriously. We can clearly see the beast is rising right now, and yet most Christians are looking for some type of one world religion led by the Pope.
“When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?”
I’ve been reading about the Cordoba Martyrs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs_of_C%C3%B3rdoba
These were people who refused to live under Islam when the Muslims invaded Spain in 711. They could have paid the jizya tax, but chose to give their lives for their faith instead. In all 48 people out of a Christian nation of 4 million were martyred. What if, as Islamic eschatology suggests, the jizya tax is abolished by the Mehdi and the only choice is convert or die? If people feel that the bible lied, it will be an easy choice for most.
January 10th, 2009 at 12:53 am
Nancy,
Thanks for your post. I’m so sorry to hear about the person you mentioned leaving the faith in doubt. That has had to be a really tough experience and I pray God will mend that place in you that may feel broken. I share that same kind of experience with you as I’ve had similar in my life. I’ve watched good people seduced away in spite of the fact that they both proclaimed and witnessed to Christ with their lives in the past. Now, the Christian faith is a meaningless fad for one guy I continue to pray for.
I continued to think throughout the day about the subject matter of this post and remembered a girl who I went to college with. She and I had the same prof. for our Bible/Theology major but I was a few years ahead of her. I had transferred into this college so this prof. was as new to me as a Junior as he was to her as a Freshman. He was and still is the dean of the department, a Princeton educated man and has been published numerous times. I had never been so challenged in my life as when I had to tangle with the many issues he would bring up in class. In a New Testament class, for example, he would spend a good chunk of the first week discussing the authorship of a particular book of the Bible which often included multiple angles and possibilities that none of us had ever thought of.
When we took a class on First and Second Peter together, there was a very key point that he made to show us that due to the advanced Greek of Second Peter as compared to First Peter, the Apostle couldn’t have written the second letter. Second Peter does appear to be a little more second century or at least more advanced Greek than the first Epistle. I, in my faith can handle that possibility because I can leave room for God to inspire Petrine disciples who could have been responsible for the second epistle in the form we have it. I can also leave plenty of room for the genuine possibility that God gifted Peter beyond his own abilities to write in a more advanced form. Either way, God inspired and anointed the epistle.
But that’s not how it was taken by the girl I mentioned before. She was devastated! Did this mean that the Bible was lying? Does this mean we can’t trust the Bible? What else is wrong that we don’t know about??? You can see where I’m going here. It took weeks and several books on why we can trust the Scriptues to get her back in shape. Now I invite a good challenge because at this point, I’m going to get stronger from it. But there are those out there who’ve had a traditional Christian up-bringing and who profess Christ who will need big brothers and sisters in Christ to walk with them and protect them. There are young lambs out there that Satan would like to snatch up like this person I mentioned. Just look back at Matt. 24:24!
Now imagine this happening on a vast scale with greater challenges by far being made to the Christian faith. We’re going to have our hands full regardless. But we’ve got to do everything we can to make soldiers for the Lord who can stand when the lie is promoted to the world in its fullest form. I know that the Bible tells us there will be a great falling away. But I have had the hardest time accepting that laying down. I can’t reach everybody, but I can reach some.
forsockssakes,
I think a solid proof for what you said can be summed up in the words of Jesus in Matt. 24:25, “(Behold), I have told you in advance.” This very statement alone require the reader to join the events of Matt. 24 with the expectation of actually experiencing those events as signs which precede Him in His coming and glory.
January 10th, 2009 at 10:55 am
Jeremiah,
You have a Shepherd’s heart!
Blessings
January 10th, 2009 at 6:21 pm
Joel,
Have you read the writings of Ellis Skolfield? His works are amazingly similar to yours and his research and explanations are very persuasive?
January 10th, 2009 at 8:20 pm
Kim,
I have read Skofield’s stuff. yes, it is indeed very convincing initially, but after really sitting down and walking through all of his various equations etc., some of them actually don’t work. Although some of his equations do seem to work out. His overarching emphasis is right on, but as I said, some of it falls down when really examined and thought through. But God knows best, not me.
Bless You, Joel
January 11th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
While all forms of Dispensationalism\Replacement Theology must be rejected, it is important to remember it is our own pride that caused most of us to believe these lies at some point in our lives. It is a reflection of Greco-Roman linear thought…”new” replaces “old” which of course leads to replacing the old knuckle dragging Neanderthal Israelites and there silly “do this” and “don’t do that” mentatily…all while singing onward christian soldiers.
Most of the people in the west which will be persecuting will be “christian.” When polled, everyone is christian. It is a cultural description. When one looks at the early beliefs of Messiah’s disciples it doesn’t even remotely resemble what is done today. Despite all this, Abba loves us and works with each of as as we stumble through the fog.
January 11th, 2009 at 9:24 pm
Scot,
“For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.” Heb 7:12
“By calling this covenant “new”, he has made the first one obsolete; and
what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear” Heb 8:13
I could go on and on, but you get the point…and you know these verses as well as I do, so my question is…how have you reconciled the above with Matthew 5:17 and 18?
I still struggle… but no one can answer me!
(and by the way, If you can’t, I understand…I just want to make the point
that confusion regarding these matters is understandable…can you agree?)
I’m will not argue your point concerning the “Church”…I will acknowledge that the original message is barely recognizable, and false
teaching is the rule not the acceptation…but regarding the Torah, there
is room for confusion. The last Torah teacher I listened to, threw out
the Book of Hebrews because he could not reconcile the book with
his teaching…any thoughts?
January 11th, 2009 at 11:55 pm
…sorry for all the typos…I meant exceptions not “acceptations”.
and I”LL not “I’m”…(It’s been a long day!)
January 12th, 2009 at 4:42 am
nancy,
While you’re waiting for Scot’s response, I will try to respond as well.
Psalm 1:1 “Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. 2 But his delight is in the TORAH of the LORD; and in his TORAH doth he meditate day and night.”
Heb 8:10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws [TORAH] into their mind, and write them [TORAH] in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:”
The Torah and the Old Covenant are not synonyms. ‘Torah’ means teachings, instructions. The Old Covenant was the system, the WAY it was dealt with these teachings or instructions. Simply put, under the Old Covenant you had to obey and couldn’t really, so you were cursed. Under the New Covenant we still have to obey, but we finally get to do it, the Lord makes it possible, He puts His Torah in our hearts and minds and we are free from the curse of the Law.
The word ‘law’ in the phrase ‘change of the law’ is ‘nomos’ and generally means regulation, principle and it does NOT refer to the Torah, but to the Old Covenant that needed to be changed. There is no change of the Torah. There is no new Law today. The Torah is perfect.
This perfectly aligns with Matthew 5, no contradictions whatsoever.
Acts 15 and other passages also used to “prove” that the Torah is done away with can also be very easily explained. In general, mistranslations based on misinterpretations are used, things inherited from Momma’s harlotry, from Christopaganism. By the way, the Antichrist is called the Man of Lawlessness or Torah-lessness.
Hope it helps, Shalom.
January 12th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Larry LA,
Thank you for responding! I have been fairly comfortable with the idea
that Torah is now written in the heart of the born again Believer.
It is the practical application that trips me up…(maybe I’ve been married
to a Lawyer for too many years)
“The Torah and the Old Covenant are not synonyms.” This is interesting…
You have given me something to think about…thanks again for responding.
Blessings
January 13th, 2009 at 11:16 am
God cannot write it in our hearts if we don’t know it. The Psalmist says: “in his TORAH doth he meditate day and night”.
January 15th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Larry,
I agree that the Torah and the Old Covenant are not synonyms, but
they are so closely aligned that for all practical purposes I still can’t see
how you can make one go away without the other.
“then he took the Book of the Covenant and READ it to the people.
They responded, ‘we will do everything the LORD has said…we will obey’”
The covenant and the Torah appear to be one and the same here…
a few verses later we read that the people were sprinkled with the
“blood of the Covenant” Exodus 24:7-8
We know this Blood was a foreshadowing of Jesus…the superior Priest.
The Blood is differrent and supieror, the Law/Torah is now different and
superior and the priesthood different and superior.
BTW, wasn’t this “covenant” also the Marriage contract between GOD and
Israel?
January 17th, 2009 at 2:08 am
Same with the Torah and the New Covenant, they are so closely aligned, He will write His Torah in our hearts and minds”, they are inseparable. Torah does NOT mean Law, it means teachings or instructions and like I said, is perfect, does not change, like God’s nature is perfect and doesn’t change. The Old Covenant is when they promised to obey, but failed and had the sacrificial system to deal with their transgression, this also showed the sinful nature of man and the need for a Savior. The New Covenant is when we transgress Torah, we have Yeshua, the High Priest who provides the difference for when we fall short of obeying Torah, like when you owe money, you’re minus $2.14, He provides that $2.14 and balances the account. We finally in Yeshua, through faith in His death and resurrection, can be transformed and obey the Torah, have it in our hearts and minds, walk in His Torah. Salvation has always (before Yeshua) been by faith, through grace, and not by obeying commandments, but being saved, being loved, being shown such grace and mercy, makes us obey Torah.
So, we don’t obey Torah to be saved, but BECAUSE we are saved and we love the Father. Torah and the Prophets are included in the 2 great commandments, to love God and your neighbor, but loving God and the neighbor is not an emotion, but is to not have other gods, not steal, murder, etc., so it’s back to the Torah. Yeshua actually defines what loving Him is, those who love Me, obey my commandments. Yeshua in fact makes the understanding and obeying the Torah even tougher, thou shalt not commit adultery, but I tell you, if you look at a woman lustfully, you have already committed adultery in your heart; same with murder, etc. So tough, that some asked Him, who then can be saved, you know His answer. The book of Revelation also talks about those who keep the commandments of God. The deception propagated by most churches is that loving God is some kind of warm, tingling sensation when the Bible clearly defines it as keeping the commandments.
January 17th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
“The deception propagated by most churches is that loving God is some kind of warm, tingling sensation when the Bible clearly defines it as keeping the commandments”.
I couldn’t agree more!
My question is… which Commandments?
I think we (for the most part) agree on the answer…Love is active and
our actions towards our fellow man will reflect whats already in our
hearts (the Torah of GOD)…