My Response to Dr. David Reagan’s Critique of the Islamic End Time Theory
Today I was personally sent a preview copy of the forthcoming issue of Lamplighter Magazine published by Dr. David Reagan’s Lion and Lamb Ministries. The magazine features Dr. Reagan’s critical review of both Antichrist: Islam’s Awaited Messiah and God’s War on Terror. As critical as the article was, I very much welcome it, as I am happy to see that this discussion is becoming more public within the circle of more well-known prophecy teachers. This afternoon, I sent the following e-mail response to Dr. Reagan:
Dr. Reagan,
When I first opened the latest edition of your magazine, I was quite excited. Of course, I was a bit surprised as I read on. First, thank you for the compliments regarding my writing. Secondly, while it is always difficult to hear someone’s tone through writing, as I read your comments, I felt that you may be a bit angry with me personally. I certainly hope that as I have presented my position regarding the Islamic End Time Paradigm, either through my writings or through my speaking, that I do not come across as cocky or offensive to you or anyone else with whom I may have some disagreements. Coming from my heart, the reason that these things mean so much to me is because I believe that the Church is walking blind into the future and dangerously unaware of what is about to befall her and the whole earth. So my passion for presenting my position is not out of any territorial spirit per se, but is deeply pastoral. I recently spoke with Pastor Mark Hitchcock and invited him to co-author a book with me that would present a good view of both positions, but he was unable to do so due to his pastoral responsibilities. Obviously after reading your review, you are certainly one who is firmly in the Roman Empire End Time camp and motivated to defend it. Would you be interested in further discussing your criticism of my position and possibly co-authoring a book that presents both the Roman and the Islamic End Time theories in a friendly way in order that the Church can weigh these things themselves? If you are able, I would be honored to work on such a project with you. Thank you for all of your years of labor for the Body of Christ.
Bless You,
Joel Richardson
December 22nd, 2008 at 9:30 pm
Great response. I tried to find the article but couldn’t. A book defending both positions would be great I would really love to buy a book like that.
December 22nd, 2008 at 9:37 pm
Hi Larry,
It will be in the January / February Issue coming out soon.
I will also be addressing the Gog as Antichrist position and walking through several of Dr. Fruchenbaum’s faulty arguments at Maryville Baptist Church in Maryville Illinois on Feb 7. Hope to see you there.
December 22nd, 2008 at 10:43 pm
One of the things that intrigues me most about end times prophesy is the sheer number of possibilities it brings to the table. I for one could not be that dogmatic about it because in prophesy hindsight is 20/20, foresight not so much.
Luther and others were sure the harlot was the Catholic Church. Its actions at the time justifying his position.
As of now I agree with the majority of Joel’s views, seeing how Islam best fits the description and the evidence of our time. Quite striking is how some of Islam’s prophetic hopes mirror those of our own faith.
Iron sharpens iron, may all be blessed by the discussion.
December 23rd, 2008 at 12:13 am
the islamic antichrist will rule most if not all of the old roman empire. what i say here none will belive. the a.c will not rule america or whats left of her the islamic world will glady accept his mark to by and sell most have neaver heard about the mark of the beast nearly all of america has.again i make a ststment that none will accept we only have three and one half years left of the tribulatiom dan’9 27jesus fufilled the first three by offering himself to his chosen nation the jews he was cut off ‘died during the firist of the seventh week wake up jesus is coming soon.
December 23rd, 2008 at 2:22 am
Joel, I’m totally supporting your point of view, I’m asking you favor in the name of Christ is to include re-writings of next links with your diction to this book in order to represent a supportive common point view of wide anticipators.
These links are:
+ Anti Christ name, mark and number
http://www.geocities.com/mygoldcross/666.html
+ Armageddon, the real place and the great deception
http://www.geocities.com/mygoldcross/armageddon.html
And I’m ready to answer any questions or inquiries concerning the contents of above links.
Bless,
December 23rd, 2008 at 4:23 am
The Woman IS Catholicism, Christopaganism. She is the mother of harlots, she has daughters which are pretty much all churches that were birthed out of her, organized religion. Yeshua (Jesus) said: My Kingdom is NOT of this world.
The Woman cannot be Islam, Mecca, Iraq, etc. because the beast will hate her and kill her. The Antichrist will never destroy his own kingdom, this is nonsense. The Antichrist IS the King of Babylon.
Walid Shoebat needs to repent because he sits in front of mostly Christopagan audiences and deceives them by telling them that the Woman is Islam and not telling them to repent of their Christopaganism.
The Woman rides the beast. They are 2 different entities, the woman and the beast. Catholicism for millennia has been riding the kings of the earth and already is trying to ride Muslim countries as well. She will try the same thing with the Antichrist’s Empire which is a revived Ottoman Islamic Empire, until the Antichrist and his 10 buddies will hate her and kill her, they never forgot what Catholicism did to Islam in the Crusades.
December 23rd, 2008 at 4:54 am
I find Dr. Reagan to be defensive in his arguments when he tries to “refute” something. I do not know if there is anger in his tone, but certainly a frustration. He clearly thinks he is right in all his views, that the idea of someone saying something contrary to him, frustrates him.
I read a few of his articles and i kept getting the same sense in all of them “I am right (can’t you people see that) and this view is clearly wrong (can’t you people see that)”
I have seen him on TV as well, he tends to gets flustered a lot, when explaining another view and gets excited when he talks about his own. I am not sure he is the type of person you want to write a book with, especially, since you disagree with his view. I think you might find him to be hard to work with, clearly since he thinks you are dead wrong. There is no agreement to disagree with him.
December 23rd, 2008 at 5:07 am
I think writing a book with someone who esposes the Roman view would be great. Simply if for no other reason it would get the Islamic end time beast view out into the mainstream. Many Christian may not buy a book with your name or Walid’s name on it but if they say David reagan, Hal Lyndsey etc on it they may buy it.
December 23rd, 2008 at 4:28 pm
Larry,
Please spare us with the whole Christopagan mess…
I’m not saying that there are not certain sects within the Christian world who haven’t adopted some strange ideas, but hey, Its like I once heard a certain minister say,”God ain’t blessing everything you believe either, Dummy”…
December 23rd, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Where is all this Christopagamism stuff coming from?
December 23rd, 2008 at 7:37 pm
joel,
I read David Reagan’s article today. I think that you were being kind when you said that he is angry. He came off to me as pompous and pretty defensive. You obviously are stirring up Satan’s nest. Thank you for your Christlike response. I’m looking forward to hearing how David will respond.
peace.
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:47 pm
Joel:
First I want to thank you for this web-site and for your perspective on the end times. My job has allowed me the opportunity to travel the world. Over the past 25 years I have seen Islam (the Muslim faith) grow mightily throughout the world. Many westerners (USA, Canada) are unaware of this. Take Italy and France for instance. The birth rate of the natives to those countries is very low, 0.8 on average while the immigrant Muslims is growing at a birth rate of 2.6 or greater. With continued migration of immigrant Muslims and their higher birth rate it is estimated that both France and Italy will have more Muslims then natives in 5 to 8 years. What happened in Lebanon (taken over by Islam) may happen in many European countries. Look what’s happening in England. When Islam grows it starts to DOMINATE those around them. They are friendly and nice in small groups. When the group gets to a certain size it is their nature (faith) to dominate. I have seen it first hand. As a result of the growth of Islam around the world my associates and I do not travel to certain area any-longer.
To: Walid Shoebat:
Thank you. Your books and testimony have been a blessing to me. You have reassured me of what I already know and have seen around the world. As you have said “westerners don’t get it”. I agree with you, most don’t get it.
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:55 pm
Bravo Joel. You are starting to get noticed. This can only mean that you will be attacked more then ever for what you believe and what i believe to be the truth. These attacks will be good because that means you will have to come out with more statements to prove them wrong. In this way you can only educate the non-believers and this can only be good. Joel, thank God that He has made you be our beacon to what is the truth about the end-times. There are not many like you and i feel honoured and priveledged to be part of this web page to be able to both read and write what you have to say. Thank you and keep up this most amazing work that you have started. God bless you, Joel
December 23rd, 2008 at 10:08 pm
Thanks all. First, I am honored to have such good friends and support, even if I do not know many of you personally beyond this blog. Secondly, regarding Dr. Reagan, please know that I do not view him as an adversary in any way. I know who my adversary is an even if Dr. Reagan and I have some theological disagreements, we are still on the same team. Folks like Dr. Reagan have served the Lord for many years and should be honored for this. And in his defense, there have been plenty of times that in defending my positions, I have gotten a bit edgy and probably said things that offended others. For now, I’m still awaiting a response from him and hoping that his response will be positive, respectful, edifying and educational for everyone.
Blessings all!
Joel
December 23rd, 2008 at 11:42 pm
Thank you Joel for your books and for the great video presentation you have prepared. I am looking forward to your next video series. I am also glad to see that you are getting some recognition of some other major prophecy teachers such as David Reagan. I am personally convinced of the Pre-Wrath position and I would encourage you to look more closely at this view since I believe the Islamic End time view will integrate well. I recognize that both the Islamic and Pre-Wrath positions are currently minority views; however, I believe both have much in common and will become more widely accepted as approach the 70th week of Daniel’s prophetic fulfillment. I would appreciate hearing your view of the Pre-Wrath position as espoused by Marv Rosenthal as presented in his book, “The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church”
Thank you again for your efforts in waking up the Church to the prophetic implication of the resurgence of radical Islam.
December 24th, 2008 at 7:49 am
Paul,
Very briefly, the pre-wrath position as presented by Rosenthall, Van Campen and elsewhere are far more scripturally sound than the pre-trib position. But while it is close, it still falls down on a couple of points. The most Scripturally sound position, in my opinion, is a position which technically would be considered both post-trib and pre-wrath that places the bowls of wrath as being poured out during the period after Christ returns and after the rapture. So seals, trumpets, then rapture / Return of Christ and then bowls. This position, in my opinion, causes all difficulties to melt away. But as always, God knows best.
Ultimately, as for the timing of the rapture, it is not something that I focus on. When you touch this issue, it often causes a near violent reaction from some and is thus very divisive. Unfortunately, in the same way that the atheistic Evolutionary scientists dominate the educational world through claiming that their position is “Science” and any who would differ are “anti-Science” so also do many within the pre-trib camp also attempt to cast their position as the “orthodox” position and anything that deviates as novel and unorthodox. This is actually quite ironic in light of the fact that the pre-trib position was unheard of by the early Church and is a modern position. In any case, if I am wrong, then wonderful, I will suddenly be raptured someday. But in wisdom, I am preparing for what I believe is about to occur. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. You cannot go wrong. But if the pre-tribbers are wrong, then those who teach this will have a million deeply confused and unprepared souls to account for on the day of judgment. Serious stuff.
Bless You,
Joel
December 24th, 2008 at 10:46 am
Joel,
Well said! Those who lead are held accountable for where they take
the sheep!
Blessings
December 24th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Joel, you da man! Post-Trib and Pre-Wrath it is! The Mother of Harlots says: I will see no sorrow! This is the predominant teaching in the Church today, that the Church will be removed from Earth before the Tribulation. I pray that the Church wakes up and realizes that indeed we will not see God’s Wrath, but will experience the Tribulation.
December 24th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
I hold to a more what i call “Post Amillennium Tribulation” position,
In which the Beast and False Prophet was the Ottoman Empire, we live in the “thousand years” obvious not literal, and that what is called the Tribulation happens at the end of this time period, with the rise of Gog and Magog what the bible calls the “Beast from the Abyss” the eighth empire.
At the end of that Christ will return, those that died under the Beast and False Prophet have already been resurrected, and they will arrive with Christ “The rest of the dead (that) did not come to life till the thousand years are complete” will be resurrected at the return of Christ and then those who are alive and remain will be caught up with him in the air. He will land on Mount of Olives.
Those that have not died in the judgment nor “raptured” up with Christ, will be allowed to live on and Christ will establish his kingdom on earth forever, and he will judge the dead and raise them to life and then cast them back into an “eternal sleep”.
December 24th, 2008 at 8:38 pm
Thank You Joel for your response. As a former Pre-Triber I am in perfect agreement with your comments on the error of the Pre-Trib position even though I also am greatly indebted to many of my professors who taught me that view. I also would agree that the Pre-Wrath view needs some refinement since it was originally conceived with the Roman End Time paradigm. I believe that as we approach the Lord’s return more effort will be extended on reconciling both the Islamic End Time paradigm and the Pre-Wrath positions and it is my prayer that the Church will realize that both the Pre-Trib and traditional Post-Trib views have some serious problems. I agree with you that unless this happens there will be much confusion within the body of Christ when the Antichrist and his persecution of the elect begins. Please continue in your efforts to inform the Church about Islam!
December 24th, 2008 at 9:30 pm
Amen Paul. Fully agreed.
December 25th, 2008 at 9:29 am
Joel;
I think this may be a lesson about how completely entrenched any and all of us can become when we truly ‘believe’ something THEN take a defensive stand to try to convince others that WE are right. It leads to division. God has a way of separating soul from spirit by His word and the absolute Truth is that probably NONE of us have it all right.
Recognize that as well meaning as Dave Reagan is, he is digging his heels into something that has been the foundation of his teaching for decades. Without profound conviction by Holy Spirit, he’s probably going to stay there. I have a good friend that I dearly love. And I mean I truly love this guy. The other day we got into a discussion from the very same words of scripture from different perspectives and I was trying to show him what I was seeing. His response was ‘do you mean to tell me that everything I have taught for the last 30 years has been wrong?’.
I don’t remember how I artfully danced away from accusing him and even joining in with that ‘invitation’ to dissension, but I did manage to avoid that by talking about the Blood of Jesus Christ. THAT is THE Truth no matter what. Problem solved.
December 25th, 2008 at 11:36 am
Brother Joel,
When Holy Scripture, instinct, common sense, and looming events start to conjeal—the pieces fit! I think it is wise to do a comparative study of the Roman Empire paradigm and the Islamic paradigm to see how it fares against the “gold standard” of Holy Scripture. We Christians do a comparative study of world religions, why not eschatological paradigms? We should indeed put both positions to the test of Scripture–let the contest begin! PLAY BALL! May the truth be revealed.
December 25th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Screaming Eagle,
I am in full agreement with you. My desire in my ministry is that within the body of Christ, folks would understand the strengths and weaknesses of various positions in order that they can become genuinely informed watchers and thus prepared with understanding as the day approaches. But when only one side is presented as absolute truth and the other side is either silenced or utterly berated, then it is the Church that pays the price through being uniformed. No good can come from that.
good4U,
Amen. Let the church weight these things.
December 26th, 2008 at 1:44 am
In recently reconsidering how some aspects of church history in some books do not always reflect a perspective in the development of church movments in contrast to apostasy, II Thessalonians 2 becomes more clearer at being at the end of the church age.
December 26th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
About 25 years ago, I would listen to Dave Reagan’s daily radio program. Fifteen years ago, he lost me as a supporter of his ministry for these reasons: (1) he went to TV instead of radio, (2) I got tired of his teaching that hell is temporary, and (3) his attack on Jody Dillow for his book “Reign of the Servant Kings”. Not all this happened at the same time, but I hope he would also drop the idea the the Rapture is an imminent event, with no prophetic precursor. I firmly believe we will see the “abomination of desolation” before we see the Rapture.
December 26th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
yup, David Reagan. the same guy i’m trying to correspond a year ago about the islamic paradigm. No luck though. Other writers like him i found out are still obsssesed and stubborn about the New Age, one world goverment headed by a western despot. i’m glad Joel had a chance to respond to him
December 26th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
I didn’t realize that he denies the eternality of hell. Interesting.
December 26th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
Joel - I think there is a spiritual purpose in God not revealing the “Islamic Paradigm” to the “David Reagans.” They have so much of an “investment” with the “Roman view” that they cannot see anything other than an European A.C. I have come to the Islamic Paradigm with whatout the baggage of “Rome.” Praise the Lord. I never would have been able to see Islam if Rome had blinded me.
Also, I am coming to a different view than yours on Ezekiel’s Gog and Magog. I look forward to reading more on your view in the future and finishing my own writing. I am still a “newbie” in many of these areas; but the more I read the more astounded I am of the knowledge of many in the body of Christ regarding End Times.
Blessings on your work. I am praying for you as you continue to be on the cutting edge in these areas.
Jack Smith
December 26th, 2008 at 11:46 pm
Joel,
Here is the article where Mr. ‘’I'm always right'’ denies the eternality of hell.
http://www.lamblion.com/articles/articles_issues5.php
December 27th, 2008 at 1:15 am
wow, I didn’t know either
December 27th, 2008 at 11:55 pm
Amazing, bro. Absolutely amazing.
December 28th, 2008 at 4:38 am
Edward Fudge has written several good books on this topic (hell).
If you want to explore or study other positions…Fudge would be
my pick.
December 28th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
I am not sure what Reagan’s position on Hell is but it (hell) will be belched up and cast into the lake of fire at the end of the sabbath millenium along with the grave and death.
December 28th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Do to a downturn in the economy the following organizations will be aligning so as to significantly cut expenses: NAACP + AARP + MADD
The new organization will be:
National Association of Retired Colored Mothers Against the Advancment of Drunk People…
Shalom not Security!
:)
December 29th, 2008 at 11:18 pm
As long as we all have our wicks trimmed & oil in our lamps ready & waiting for the Groom it doesn’t really matter when the “catching up” is.
We live in a Laodicean era. Many Christians are asleep & not ready in all camps.
The only Pre-trib, Pre-wrath, Post-etc- that will be caught off guard are those not watching & waiting like we are told to do. I sincerely doubt any spiritually mature Pre-Tribs who go through tribulation will fall apart. Weather it’s tribulation before the actual 7 yr appointed time of Judgment or during.
If anyone is preaching that Christians will not go through tribulation then we know they are not hearing the entire council of God. We are expected to be tested & persecuted.
Are we not all humble enough that if our viewpoint has been wrong to say-Oops, I was wrong and get on with it?
Furthermore; It seems to me that Christians have been blessed with various spiritual gifts, burdens, and revelations. There is not one person who has completely figured out the end time scenario. Apparently that is how God wants it @ this point in time. After we all look back in history I’m sure we will all be totally amazed & awestruck how all the little pieces of revelation fit together.
Speaking of Catholicism & Islam-I was browsing through that great link Joel posted “Awaited Mahdi.com” under the heading of:”THE MESSIAH DAJJAL HAS SECRETLY STARTED WORK”.
Coming from this Islamic view point-interesting their end time beliefs somehow unite w/Catholicism. (At least on this site.) Take it for what it’s worth but looks to me like they just might play into this end time scenario together.
Following are just a few quotes:
“According to the Dajjal’s strategy, in order for the glad tidings imparted regarding the End Times to take place, civilizations must first turn against one another, and there must be a terrible war. According to this error, before the appearance of the Messiah, who is expected in the End Times, a terrible battle known as Armageddon must take place, between the Jews and some Christians who support them on the one hand, and Muslims and Catholics on the other.”
According to the indoctrination of the Dajjal, “there must be a period of disaster lasting seven years; Jews and other believers must be oppressed during that period; and two-thirds of Jews must die in the battle of Armageddon and the lands of Israel must be devastated.” By means of a series of figurative, but groundless interpretations of holy scriptures, the Dajjal seeks to make Christians and Jews believe that the Messiah can only come to earth once all these conditions have been fulfilled. According to this belief, inculcated in Christians by the Dajjal, the Jews will win that battle under the leadership of Prophet ‘Isa (as), will follow him, and will return to Christianity.”
“He causes those people who fall under his spell to believe that speaking of peace before the coming of the Messiah is to go astray, to oppose the holy scriptures, and even Dajjalism. By these means he convinces them that tension in the Middle East should not be lowered. (10) He portrays countries that are opposed to war, and peace movements, as part of the movement of the Dajjal, and intends to make sure the climate of war in the region continues so that there should never be peace there until the coming of the Messiah.”
“He portrays peace, liberation and security, and the achievement of peace in the Middle East as Dajjal-like movement engaged in opposition to holy scriptures; bloodshed, the ruthless killing of innocent men, women and children, and the spread of pitiless savagery over the region are all portrayed as a so-called religious observance.
He portrays Catholics, who believe in the same scriptures as them and who recognize Prophet ‘Isa (as) as their prophet, and who perform the same acts of worship, as enemies who need to be eliminated.”
“Similarly, he portrays Muslims, who like them believe in Allah, love and respect the same prophets, possess the same moral principles, and who are awaiting the coming of Prophet ‘Isa (as) with the same excitement, as a community needing to be combated.”
**Notice how the Jews & Christians are grouped together. Then the Muslims & Catholics are together. Why do you think that is?
Roger Oakland who’s revelation has been much about the End Time Roman Catholic aspect has some great points to ponder. I’ve studied what some of the appariations/Fatima have communicated & he may be onto something w/some type of supernatural event bringing the Catholics & Muslims together. Here is a good link about “the Queen of Peace.”
http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c51.shtml
So to discuss both the Islamic & Roman end time scenarios could really turn out to be a great thing if it was done in a spirit of brotherly love & partnership. Not to argue & prove who’s right but to explore the idea of how the two may both play a role. One may be more or less but a role never-the-less.
December 30th, 2008 at 12:32 am
Late Night Lisa,
Amen!
I’m very comfortable with the Islamic piece of the puzzle…but I’m
also reading an extremely compelling book about Catholicism and
Her possible role. I’ve wondered if maybe everyone could be partially
“right”…a little bit of East and West?
Maybe our Creator wants to create a prophetic environment in which
we have no other choice but to watch closely? I’m also confident
that the picture will eventually, in HIS good time, become clearer.
This is why complete humility is the only possible way to approach
the subject of eschatology…and yet I’m convinced that together
we can work this puzzle with the SPIRIT’S help and guidance.
I was raised in a denomination that taught that “salvation” was
kind’a tricky…you had to “rightly divide” your way into GOD’S good
graces…after all the road was narrow and few find it…right?
Well, I rejected this very early in my young adulthood. The Creator
I came to know, made “salvation” so simple that a child could find
it. If it’s important, a loving GOD will provide guidance to HIS
seeking children,… IF we want HIS help discerning the “times”
and our well being is resting on this understanding, I’m confident
that the understanding will unfold as needed.
December 30th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Hi Joel,
What a great response to Dr Reagan, totally in love, bless you and keep up the good work. The body of Christ needs to be prepared for the tribulation that will befall the world. At the moment the majority seem to have been cleverly deceived by the false teachings about the rapture and the catholic church, whom lets not forget, believe that Jesus is the Son of God and call Him Lord. Divide and conquer the body of Christ has always been the enemy’s game!!
But with you and Walid pushing forward the Spirit led revealed truth of the Scriptures, there is hope that the falling away and the deception of the elect wont be as great as the enemy wishes!!
Bless you
Caral
December 30th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
Caral,
What do you believe the “falling away” to be and what is the deception of
the elect?
January 1st, 2009 at 2:56 am
(Note: I saw the following non-copyrighted item on the web. Any reaction to it? Diane)
PRETRIB RAPTURE - HIDDEN FACTS !
How can the “rapture” be “imminent”?
Acts 3:21 says that Jesus “must” stay in heaven (He is now there with the Father) “until the times of restitution of all things” which includes, says Scofield, “the restoration of the theocracy under David’s Son” which obviously can’t begin before or during Antichrist’s reign. Since Jesus must personally participate in the rapture, and since He can’t even leave heaven before the tribulation ends, the rapture therefore cannot take place before the end of the trib! Paul explains the “times and the seasons” (I Thess. 5:1) of the catching up (I Thess. 4:17) as the “day of the Lord” (5:2) (which FOLLOWS the posttrib sun/moon darkening - Matt. 24:29; Acts 2:20) WHEN “sudden destruction” (5:3) of the wicked occurs! (If the wicked are destroyed before or during the trib, who would be left alive to serve the Antichrist?) Paul also ties the change-into-immortality “rapture” (I Cor. 15:52) to the posttrib end of “death” (15:54)! (Will death be ended before or during the trib?) If anyone wonders how long pretrib rapturism has been taught, he or she can Google “Pretrib Rapture Diehards.” Many are unaware that before 1830 all Christians had always viewed I Thess. 4’s “catching up” as an integral part of the final second coming to earth. In 1830 it was stretched forward and turned into a separate coming of Christ. To further strengthen their novel view, which the mass of evangelical scholars rejected throughout the 1800s, pretrib teachers in the early 1900s began to stretch forward the “day of the Lord” (what Darby and Scofield never dared to do) and hook it up with their already-stretched-forward “rapture.” Many leading evangelical scholars still weren’t convinced of pretrib, so pretrib teachers then began teaching that the “falling away” of II Thess. 2:3 is really a pretrib rapture (the same as saying that the “rapture” in 2:3 must happen before the “rapture” [”gathering”] in 2:1 can happen - the height of desperation!). Other Google articles throwing light on long-covered-up facts about the 178-year-old pretrib rapture view include “Famous Rapture Watchers,” “X-Raying Margaret,” “Revisers of Pretrib Rapture History,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “Wily Jeffrey,” “The Rapture Index (Mad Theology),” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism,” “Scholars Weigh My Research,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Pretrib Rapture Desperados” and “Deceiving and Being Deceived” - all by the author of the bestselling book “The Rapture Plot” which is available at Armageddon Books online. Just my two cents’ worth.
Todd
January 1st, 2009 at 7:39 am
Hi Nancy,
Firstly Happy New Year and the Lord bless you mightily this year!!
Below is just some of the scripture, concerning the great apostasy.
Now brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ……. let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin (lawlessness) is revealed, the son of perdition. 2Thess 2:1-3
But evil men will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived 2Tim 3:13
But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, ………..lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of Godliness but denying its powers. And from such people will turn away! 2Tim 3:1-5
Now the Spirit explicitly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. 1 Tim 4:1
But evil men will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived 2Tim 3:13
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers and they will turn their ears away from the truth and be turned aside to fables. 2Tim 4:2-4
The falling away, (called the rebellion in the NIV) and the deception is already happening here in the UK now. The stats suggest saying that we only have 6% of our population attending church, and only 2% of us are bible believing born again Christians.
462 years after Luther nailed a copy of his 95 Theses to castle church, marking the beginning of the reformation and freedom for the UK and large parts of Europe from the slavery and authority of the Papacy and re-establishing the authority of God’s Word, of which many, many saints shed their blood for. We are now in a horrendous position.
The head of the Anglican church here in the UK, the Archbishop, is a self professed member of a coven of wicca witches, and their rituals are televised during the summer solstice.
The preachers and teachers in some of the main stream dominations do not preach the true gospel, but a different gospel, a gospel of universalism, God is love, not a God of justice also, they teach there is no hell, they do not expound the scriptures and the truth anymore, witchraft, fornication, abortion, and the practice of homosexuality is fine, it is an acceptable lifestyle choice and many, many priests live and practice this.
And to make proclaiming the truth even harder for us, our government are trying to push through legalisation which will carry a maximum 7 year prison sentence for those who proclaim that that there is only one way to God, i.e, through Christ alone as the Gospel testifies.
But for me the worst abomination is that they encourage and invite islamic imams to preach and teach in their churches.
I can go on…. But I won’t.
We that are left, continue to pray protection for one and another and for revival.
God bless
Caral
January 1st, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Caral,
thank you for replying and…Amen!
I believe that most of the “falling away” occurs in our Churches…starting
with Catholicism and ending with everyone else…I wasn’t picking on our
Catholic Brothers and Sisters…I don’t attend ANY Church (accept on
rare occasions to hear a trusted speaker). When we meet, it is in small
home gatherings and even then, we are cautious. I’m not dogmatic about
this…this is just what we do. As for the “rapture”…we agree! But even
then, I wouldn’t elevate this teaching to serous false teaching, because I think those who believe this will figure it out! If not, then maybe they
never belonged to JESUS anyway…the saints will put it together or adapt!
(maybe wishful thinking…but that is my prayer)
It is the tampering with “salvation” and basic truths regarding JESUS that
keep me up at night…the “christian” acceptance of Islam would surely
fall into this category!..IMO
Diane,
It’s a great article, but I’m afraid many will never see it. I hope you re-
post later when a more recent article is viewable.
Blessings
January 1st, 2009 at 3:52 pm
Bless you Nancy
I toally agree with you, it is the tampering with salvation and basic christians truths that is the most worrying and, I believe this comes about by the chipping away at peripheral doctrines, once people start to doubt any part of God’s truth, i.e. creation or the virgin birth, the enemy takes this as a foothold and the original deception that Eve fell into of “Did God really say…” occurs over and over again.
I do believe that the teaching of pre trib rapture is a false doctrine, and so unscriptural it is a total joke, if it is isn’t, then Thank you Jesus. But if it is a false teaching the concern is, as Joel pointed out in an earlier post, there will be millions of deeply confused and unprepared souls, that these pre trib teachers will how to account for on judgement day. Ouch, now that will hurt!
Anyhow I just love your prayer.
Blessings
January 6th, 2009 at 11:42 am
The Lamplighter article “Will the Antichrist be a Muslim?” is now posted on the Lamb & Lion website.