Missing The Forest For the Trees & Other Eschatological Errors
By Joel Richardson
Anyone who has read any of my writings on Ezekiel 38,39 and the Battle of Gog and Magog knows that I am firmly convinced that the biblical character called “Gog” in Ezekiel 38,39 is none other than the Antichrist. Likewise, the Battle of Gog and Magog as described in Ezekiel 38,39 is the same event as the Battle of Armageddon as described in Revelation 19 and numerous other prophetic passages. Most prophecy students also know that this is not a common position among prophecy teachers. I want to briefly touch on why I believe this position is rejected by so many otherwise fine teachers and respond to some arguments. The first reason that so many prophecy teachers teach a distinction between Gog and the Antichrist is simply because the Gog Magog army is not a European army. Because most are convinced that the Antichrist will come from Europe, they are forced to cast Gog and his armies as being someone other than the AC. But another common reason that many misinterpret Ezekiel 38 is because of what I believe is a common flawed approach to studying Bible Prophecy. It is the error of “missing the forest for the trees”, as the expression goes. It is the error of missing the bigger general picture by getting lost in the minute details of numerous individual prophecies. This approach usually begins when one picks any one of the hundreds of significant prophecies in the Bible and then analyzes it. Detailed conclusions are made. Later another prophecy is analyzed, more disparate conclusions and then another passage, etc. The final step is to make efforts to reconcile all of these now disjointed prophecies together into one wall-dominating Panoramic Biblical Prophecy Timeline Chart. We’ve all seen them. But this approach, in my opinion, has yet to provide the Body of Christ with a more universally recognized picture of what the future holds. Instead it has provided us with dozens of divergent, detailed, often chaotic and confused opinions regarding what the future holds. How many highly detailed yet contradictory prophecy charts do we need before we recognize that something is remiss?
When we begin to step back however and take in the larger picture, when we examine the more general patterns and repeated themes of Bible prophecy, suddenly so many passages that were once viewed as being distinct components of the prophetic timeline are reconciled as referring to the same general events described from a slightly different angle. When one begins to recognize that the general theme of Bible prophecy is actually far more simple than many have made it, then so much of the confusion and chaos is swept away. A fairly clear picture emerges. When Gog and Magog are separated from the Battle of Armageddon, then we have a perfect example of a simple picture getting confused. In our book God’s War On Terror: Islam, Prophecy and the Bible, Walid Shoebat and I put together a summary comparison of the many shared descriptions of the Battle of Gog and Magog and the Battle of Armageddon. I’ll let the reader draw their own conclusions:
· Antichrist: Attacks Israel with an army of many nations
· Gog: Attacks Israel with an army of many nations.
· Antichrist: Battle of Armageddon concludes with the supernatural destruction of Antichrist and his forces by Christ.
· Gog: Battle of Gog concludes with the supernatural destruction of the forces of Gog and his forces by Christ.
· Antichrist: After the Antichrist’s defeat, the Kingdom of Christ is established.
· Gog: After Gog’s defeat, all of Israel and all the Gentile nations come to a true and lasting knowledge of God with the Spirit being poured out on Israel. Gods name is never again blasphemed. After this, in Ezekiel, chapter 40 we are given a detailed description of the millennial temple.
· Antichrist: In Revelation, chapter 6, the Antichrist is portrayed as a rider on a white horse holding a bow going forth conquering and to conquer.
· Gog: In Ezekiel, Gog is also pictured with a bow in his hand.
· Antichrist: At the battle of Armageddon there is a great earthquake.
· Gog: At the Battle of Gog, there is also a great earthquake.
· Antichrist: At the Battle of Armageddon, “hundred pound hailstones” fall on the forces of Antichrist.
· Gog: At the Battle of Gog, “great hailstones” fall on the forces of Gog.
· Antichrist: During the Battle of Armageddon, the Lord is said to “tread the wine-press of the fierce wrath of God.”
· Gog: Ezekiel 38 says “My fury will mount up in My anger” and “in My zeal and in My blazing wrath…”
· Antichrist: In Daniel 11, the Antichrist is identified as “the king of the north.”
· Gog: in Ezekiel, Gog is described as being from “the remote parts of the north.”
· Antichrist: At Armageddon, the birds of the air are invited to feast on the flesh of the fallen soldiers.
· Gog: At the Gog / Magog invasion, the birds of the air are invited to feast on the flesh of the fallen soldiers.
Yet despite what would seem to be a clear cut case that these two Biblical passages are simply referring to the same event, many still set forth various arguments determined to prove that these two events are not one and the same. In my opinion, many of these arguments often smack of desperation, such as the claim that Israel would be unable to burn weapons during the millennium. I’m not exactly sure why this is even seen as an argument, but for some, it is accepted. Another argument that has been made recently is that Gog comes for booty and spoils while the Antichrist does not. Again, in God’s War on Terror, Walid and I take a whole chapter not only to debunk this myth, but also to show that this characteristic of going to war specifically for booty and spoils is perfectly in keeping with a Muhammadan / Islamic ethic and history. So just for clarity’s sake, lets look at a few passages together:
The Lord clearly warned Israel that in the Last days, the armies of the Antichrist would come to take spoil and plunder:
Behold, the day of Yahweh cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2)
Then we see that Gog and his armies invade Israel specifically to plunder, for booty and spoil:
“I will plunder and loot and turn my hand against the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations, rich in livestock and goods, living at the center of the land. Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? Hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? To carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?” (Ezekiel 38:12,13)
So also does the Antichrist come to plunder, to take loot and spoil.
“When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them… He will distribute plunder, loot, and wealth among his followers.” (Daniel 11:24)
And again:
“Woe to the Assyrian (the Antichrist), the rod of my anger, in whose hand is the club of my wrath! I send him against a godless nation; I dispatch him against a people who anger me, to seize loot and snatch plunder, and to trample them down like mud in the streets. But this is not what he intends, this is not what he has in mind; his purpose is to destroy, to put an end to many nations.” (Isaiah 10:5-7)
When one simple steps back and compares the oft-repeated themes found throughout the prophets, it becomes clear that Gog and the Antichrist are one and the same. It is for this reason that Yahweh asked Gog through Ezekiel,
“Are you (Gog) not the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel? At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them. ” (Ezekiel 38:17)
Once again, those who hold that Gog and Antichrist are two separate characters must be able to produce the Scriptures that speak so abundantly of Gog in those Prophetic books that came before Ezekiel. I issued this challenge in my first book and I have yet to hear of a single effort to explain this passage. Why the silence?
In a forthcoming article, I will further discuss the prophetic ramifications of this fact; namely that Gog is none other than the Antichrist.
For further study, I encourage you to get God’s War on Terror or my latest DVD teaching series Islam & The End Times.
Thanks and Bless Y’all, Joel
August 26th, 2008 at 4:32 am
Hi Joel,
Your book and above posting including Isaiah’s reference to the antichrist got me thinking.
Turkey’s president, Abdullah Gul ( who’s name translated from arabic means, “Servant of Allah, The Beast, or Demon or Monster”) was born in Kayseri according to his official biography. A little research on Kayseri turns up the following:
“Thus, there were three golden-age periods for Kayseri. The first, dating back to 2000BC, was when the city was a trade post between the Assyrians and the Hittites.”
(^ (Turkish) Kurt, Süleyman, “Cumhur” İkinci Kez Köşk Yolunda, )
But Gul’s family have only lived in Kayseri for about 100 years, “His great-grandfather was an Arab who immigrated from Siirt to Develi around 1915.”
Siirt it seems, is just about 150 miles north of Mosul, which is just across the river from the ruins of Nineveh, the one of the former capital cities of the Assyrian empire, and Nineveh is just a little over 100 miles north of the founding Assyrian city of Assur, from which the empire derives it’s name.
All in all, Gul’s birthplace and family history seem to place him well within the confines of the heart of the historic Assyrian Empire, well qualified, I would think, to be referred to as “the Assyrian.” Just a thought.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:14 am
Good research Monty. Could be…
August 26th, 2008 at 9:01 am
Joel - I am glad you brought this up. I recently read “The Silence is Broken! God Hooks Ezekiel’s Gog & Magog” by Douglas Berner. He takes to task several of these different views on the timing of this war, the intentions of God, the identities of the participants, etc. I’d like to share with you the criticisms of the Armageddon view of Ezekiel 38-39:
(p. 295-296)
The proponents for the Armageddon view place the timing of Ezekiel 38-39 during the second half of the tribulation, either as an early battle of an extended campaign or in conjunction with the final battle. There are several significant problems with this interpretation.
1. Ezekiel goes to the trouble of identifying the territories of a specific but limited alliance. The War of Armageddon is characterized by all of the armies of the world being drawn into a conflict in Israel under Satanic influence. There is no mention of Gog or any of Gog’s specific allies in the book of Revelation.
2. Israel will be dwelling securely or at least under a false sense of security, at the time of Gog’s invasion. However, Israel will have no security, nor will it have any pretense of security, throughout the entire second half of the tribulation until after the end of the campaign of Armageddon. It is a time of extreme persecution and trouble during which the remnant of Israel will flee to the wilderness in the area of Petra/Bozrah.
3. Gog and Magog are under the control of God, with God’s hooks in Gog’s jaws, while in Revelation describes the armies of the world being gathered under the direct influence of demons sent out by Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet.
4. Ezekiel emphasizes the primary direction of Gog’s attack will come from the north. But there is no such emphasis in the Armageddon passages of Revelation. The emphasis in Revelation is on the kings of the East coming across the dried up Euphrates River.
5. Ezekiel reveals the presence of a few countries, which out of concern for Israel or their own fear regarding Gog’s intentions, make a mild protest. But there is absolutely no evidence of any concern for Israel or protest by any nation during the war of Armageddon.
6. Ezekiel specifically mentions Gog’s intent to take spoil, but there is no such intent conveyed by the Antichrist or any of the nations gathering for Armageddon.
7. Ezekiel places an emphasis on the mountains of Israel and that Gog’s forces will fall upon the mountains. There is no such emphasis in the Armageddon passages.
8. While Ezekiel depicts God’s initial judgments and direct intervention after a long period of silence to return His face to Israel, the war of Armageddon comes well after the point that God breaks His silence and comes near the end of the tribulation of God’s judgments.
9. While God intervenes to destroy Gog’s forces through a combination of supernatural judgments, the Antichrist and all his armies are slain directly by Christ at His second coming.
10. Ezekiel delineates a seven-month time period for cleansing the land and burying the dead. There is no such reference in Revelation or by any of the other prophets.
11. Ezekiel delineates a seven-year time period for the burning of the weapons of Gog’s armies. There is no such reference in Revelation or by any of the other prophets.
12. While Gog & Magog are directly followed by the overlapping time periods of seven months and seven years, the war of Armageddon is directly followed by a period of 75 days which precedes the Millennial Kingdom.
13. …there is no mention in Ezekiel’s prophecy of the Antichrist or the False Prophet or any of the key events of the tribulation period which are associated with them.
14. Gog and his multitude are buried in the Valley of Hamon-gog, while the Antichrist and the False Prophet are cast into the lake of fire. There is no mention of the burial of the armies slain by Christ.
__________________________________________________
I should also mention that the author does not appear to support a European AC. But he is thinking that Russia is involved in Gog. He also offers an analysis of the Gog in Ezekiel and the Gog of Revelation 20:
(p. 285-286)
What is God’s purpose for making the reference to Gog and Magog in Revelation 20? If God has a purpose for depicting the last rebellion of people against God under the influence of Satan by referring back to a previous war, why would God refer to Ezekiel’s invasion of Gog and Magog? Is there a characteristic pertaining to Ezekiel’s Gog and Magog invasion that is different from any other war or battle of Israel’s history or of the end times? In his book, “Exploring the Future” John Phillips provides a possible answer to these questions.
“Then why did John use the terms ‘Gog and Magog’ when describing
this last invasion, which is to terminate the millennial reign? An
illustration will be helpful. In the year 1815 Napoleon escaped from
Elba, rallied France behind him, and for the famous ‘one hundred days’
made a final bid for world power. He was met and mastered by the
armies of the duke of Wellington at Waterloo. Napoleon’s defeat
was so conclusive that the name ‘Waterloo’ passed into the English
language as a synonym for a great defeat or disaster. In the same
way Russia’s overthrow will become a synonym for defeat at the hands
of God. Ezekiel hinted that this will be the case (Ezek 38:23; 39:7),
and it is in this sense that John used the expression ‘Gog and Magog’
in Revelation 20.”
I believe that John Phillips makes a very valuable observation. It is true that the Battle of Waterloo is used as a comparative figure of speech for total and decisive defeat and is applied to other battles and situations where failure marks a significant turning point. In this manner, “Gog and Magog” serve as a dynamic reminder and a warning to anyone considering rebellion to God. This warning will not be needed after Satan’s final rebellion. At that time God will destroy all sin and completely lift the curse of sin from man. However, during the end times of the tribulation and the Millennium, there will be ample use for this type of divine example.
_____________________________________________________
I think this raises some interesting point here Joel. There is much more analysis than I can write here, but I would be interested in further comment by you. Of course, you may want to read the rest of his analysis yourself to get the full picture of his argument.
I found the idea of the Waterloo figure of speech interesting, because we see similar examples in the Bible. I remembered Psalm 83:9-11
9 Deal with them as with Midian, As with Sisera and Jabin at the torrent of Kishon,
10 Who were destroyed at En-dor, Who became as dung for the ground.
11 Make their nobles like Oreb and Zeeb And all their princes like Zebah and Zalmunna,
We see the use of places and people that the writer believes would be common knowledge for those of that time. I could see two men sharing a meal and saying, “Those Philistines better watch out or it’s going to be like Midian.” And anyone listening would know exactly what they were talking about. What this author is suggesting is that Gog/Magog will be the new idiom for ultimate defeat.
I’ll include one last section from the book:
(p.109-110)
The invasion of Israel by the forces of Gog and Magog will mimic the popularized scenario of Armageddon. The destruction of Gog and his forces supernaturally by God will be hailed as the fulfillment of the great Battle of Armageddon. Thus Gog serves as a false Antichrist - whose destruction by God makes it appear to Israel, to the apostate Christian Church, and to the nations of the world, that the Antichrist has been defeated and destroyed - Peace has come at last!
The supernatural destruction of Gog opens the way for the rise of a world leader who will be hailed by the world as a man of peace. From the vortex of the tremendous destruction and huge power vacuum left in the wake of Gog and Magog, almost like a butterfly from a cocoon, emerges Satan’s savior of the world. I believe that Ezekiel 38:17 is clearly a rhetorical question and that God is saying to Gog “You are not the one - you are not the Antichrist!” While this should serve as a dire warning to the nation of Israel from the prophet Ezekiel, the warning will be overlooked or ignored.
_____________________________________________________
Peace and blessings everyone.
August 26th, 2008 at 9:15 am
First, in Daniel 9, the antichrist is of from the people who destroy Jerusalem, this means he comes from the people who formed the roman empire; gog/magog is far north of israel, and that would be Russia, and Russia was never part if the roman empire;
Second: the many nations from Ezekiel are not ALL the nations on earth from Revelation “For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.”
Third: the Gog war comes as a surprise to Israel, who thinks it lives in safety; that’s completely not the case with Israel in the last 3.5 years of Tribulation, who will be hiding from the antichrist starting with the middle of the tribulation, when the abomination of desolation takes place.
Fourth: in the first 7 years of the Millenium, the fuel from the burning weapons would be of no use, could you imagine the ugly smoke in contrast with the light and brightness when Jesus will be there to rule as King? i think not; and also there is a verse in Isaiah where it is said that the weapons will be turned into plows. There isn’t any logic to burning weapons in the Millenium, when God can just make them dissapear, or turn them into useful things.
August 26th, 2008 at 10:27 am
I’ve been a Christian going on 30 years now, for the past 25 years I consider myself a Bible student studying Prophecy.
The problem with Bible Prophecy is not the Prophecy itself but the interpretation of prophecy. Authors claiming to know for CERTAIN specific events described in Prophecy just to sell a book!
My point is this. Leave Bible Prophecy up to God since this is His work.
Christians need to get back to the work Christ by Spreading The Gospel.
When we are Raptured, the last thing on your mind will be the identity of the antichrist, what region or country he comes from, the identity of Gog
and all the other details that some just want to make a buck off of.
Joel has collaborated with this Walid Shoebat fella, This guy is no Bible Scholar or student that I’m aware of, this guy has made bold claims about Bible Prophecy, this should be a red flag to Bible student.
He could be a wolf in sheeps clothing.
The enemy can use even Gods words to deceive and confuse those who have set themselves up as scholars.
Get back to The Gospel of Jesus Christ and leave Prophecy to God.
August 26th, 2008 at 11:23 am
well done ,security mom
now buckle up and get ready , j/k most people around here in case you didnt notice are of the opinion gog magog war is armaggdon end of story for them , me im still up in the air about it joel and I have already debated it over and over and it got heated and he and I are brothers in Christ so we let things go , besides were christians and should act like it and not get overheated as i have in the past ( sinner remember battling the flesh )
but any way people here are good about it talking it out , ideas are good ,and it helps us all learn , and besides none of us know exactly how it will end up even the jewish higher ups , sages even got it wrong about Jesus Christ and even the disciples got things wrong in there thinking JESUS always had to correct them …
by the way the gog magog war doesnt involve any middle easter nations think about it .
RASUL JACOB
August 26th, 2008 at 11:24 am
I MEANT MIDDLE EASTERN NATIONS ACCORDING TO EZEKIEL 38 AND 39
August 26th, 2008 at 11:25 am
Hi securitymom,
That is a great example of precisely what Joel is saying. It is so much simpler than that. Gog is the one that invades Israel and it is the day God spoke of by His prophets of old.
Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
Notice God is dwelling in Israel, Holy One “in” Israel. This is the day God spoke of He says that clearly. What day did God speak of? The day Israel will be invaded by her muslim neighbors which surround her currently. That invasion is led by Gog and ends with God having mercy upon and pouring His spirit upon the house of Israel. This is when Israel returns to God.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
That can only happen after they accept their Messiah Jesus. Jesus told them that they would not see him again until they recognized Him as being from God.
Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Luk 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
So for God to pour out His spirit and not hide His face any longer would mean that Israel had to have accepted Christ.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
They can only go to the Father through Jesus. At the conclusion of the Gog war they are with the Father meaning they would have had to accept Jesus.
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
This is when they recognize Jesus as the Messiah and can be grafted back into the vine. It happens at the end of the last 7 years. This timestamps the events in Eze 39 to the end of the last 7 years. That is clear from Eze 38 as well when all creatures on earth shake at the presence of God. The ending of both events, Gog war / Armageddon, are at the same point in time when Israel returns to God after He saves them.
All the prophets speak of this same event. They all have the same ending. The story is always the same. A group of nations attack Israel, God steps in to save them, and they return to God forever. All the prophets speak of these same issues and they all end with Israel with God forever after. They must tell of the same events to all have the same conclusion.
Peace,
Seeker
August 26th, 2008 at 11:56 am
Im going to quote chuck Missler on this (( Chuck Missler, Bible teacher and a international authority on Russia and the Middle East, sheds new light on the identity of Gog. In his book, ‘The Magog Invasion’ he discovered a provocative reference to Gog in the book of Amos that has been widely overlooked. The traditional rendering of Amos 7:1 reads as follows:
“Thus hath the Lord God shewed unto me; and, behold, he informed grasshoppers in the beginning of the shooting up of the latter growth; and, lo, it was the latter growth after the king’s mowings.” Amos 7:1 (KJV)
Our English Bible takes its translation from the Masoretic text, a 9th century source. However, an earlier translation of the Old Testament into Greek, known as the Septuagint, embodies a different rending of Amos 7:1:
((”Thus the Lord showed me, and behold a swarm of locusts were coming, and behold, one of the young devastating locusts was Gog, the King.” Amos 7:1 (LXX) ))
The identification of Gog as the king of the locusts would have profound implications. Proverbs 30:27 reveals that “the locusts have no king,” implying that the “locusts” of Amos 7 are not intended to be natural locusts, but an idiom for something else. We encounter a similar passage in Revelation chapter 9 where locusts there are described as having a king, and are clearly demonic in nature. end of quote ))
this is at least some food for thought .
( I have always mantained that magog is also found in souther Russia by many people such as
(Joseph Flavius , and Herodotus)
known as the “Father of History.” Herodotus writes of the strange and savage practices of the descendents of Magog known as the Scythians.
Scythian covers a number of nomadic tribes from the Russian steppes,
a fertile area of the Ukraine north of the Black Sea. Other related tribes occupied the area to the east of the Caspian Sea. The area encompassed by the Scythians extended from the mid-Volga to the northern Urals and beyond. They colonized Media, Parthia, Persia, Central Asia and as far as the Chinese border. Arab writers confirm that in the Arabic language their name for the Great Wall of China is called “the wall of Al Magog” because the Great Wall was built to keep out the invading armies from Magog. All together an area of about 2,000 square miles. So clearly this was the former Soviet Union, modern day Russia.
this is all im saying about this as this is a toughy issue with many people.
I will not reply anymore I hope this helps a little bit .
Joel here we go again ” just kidding my friend ” GOD BLess You
Praise God for a site where we can share things .
RasulJacob
August 26th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Securitymom,
You said: “I believe that Ezekiel 38:17 is clearly a rhetorical question and that God is saying to Gog “You are not the one - you are not the Antichrist!”
If you have ever watched Perry Stone he had a program over the mystery of Gog and Magog and this was his thought on this verse too! I agree with that analysis.
Russia’s Medvedev says they are ready for a new cold or hot war with the West:
http://www.iii.co.uk/news/?type=afxnews&articleid=6864695&action=article
August 26th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Security Mom, etc., Yes, I’ve read this book. Let me walk through at least the first several of the author’s best arguments:
This statement is simply wrong. The Gog coalition is NOT limited. Instead the primary players are specified, but the passage clearly does not limit the Gog coalition. Instead it says “and MANY nations with you.” This is a perfect example of what i am talking about in interpreting a passage in a vacuum. Armageddon, none will argue is also described in numerous Old Testament passages. And several of these other passages speak of the Antichrist armies as being composed of the “surrounding nations” or even Israel’s “neighbors”. Joel, Zechariah and Ezekiel 28 are the most prominent of these.
Another non-argument. The false sense of security perfectly fits the covenant with the AC that Israel will be trusting in during the tribulation.
The armies of Armageddon are the same armies described in Joel and Zechariah. Think about it: “I (God) will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them” In Zechariah, God says, “I will gather all nations against Jerusalem” No one will argue that Joel or Zechariah are anything other than the Armies of the Antichrist. Simply put, God is sovereign and even Satan cannot do anything apart from God’s permission. Satan tempted Job, but God allowed it.
Again, in Joel, which scholars are in near universal agreement on, is Antichrist and his armies, the army does come from the North. “I will no longer make you a reproach among the nations. But I will remove far from you THE NORTHERN ARMY, And will drive HIM away into a barren and desolate land, With his face toward the eastern sea And his back toward the western sea; His stench will come up, And his foul odor will rise, Because he has done monstrous things.” Also in Daniel 11, the AC is referred to as the King of the North.
Not true again. The King of the South fights against the AC in Daniel 11. The King of the south is Egypt. Elsewhere, it says that “many nations will fall to him” MANY, NOT ALL. Other passages speak of nations fighting against the AC. Numbers 24, says that “ships of Eber will afflict him”. Micah 5 says that God will raise up seven leaders against the AC.
Another absolute false claim. I hate to say it, but this author simply didn’t do his homework.
The Lord clearly warned Israel that in the Last days, the armies of the Antichrist would come to take spoil and plunder:
Behold, the day of Yahweh cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2)
The Antichrist DOES come to plunder, to take loot and spoil.
“When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them… He will distribute plunder, loot, and wealth among his followers.” (Daniel 11:24)
And again:
“Woe to the Assyrian (the Antichrist), the rod of my anger, in whose hand is the club of my wrath! I send him against a godless nation; I dispatch him against a people who anger me, to seize loot and snatch plunder, and to trample them down like mud in the streets. But this is not what he intends, this is not what he has in mind; his purpose is to destroy, to put an end to many nations.” (Isaiah 10:5-7)
So what? The expression “mountains of Israel” is simply a commonly used expression throughout Ezekiel referring to Israel in general. “Son of man, set your face against the mountains of Israel; prophesy against them” “There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel.” etc.
General terms that can easily be reconciled. The author fails to discuss the fact that at the conclusion of the Gog battle, NO LONGER would His name ever be blasphemed. from there on out, the Gentiles and Israel alike would know God. This simply cannot be said if the event is several years before Christ returns.
Again, easy to reconcile. The author again fails to discuss that both armies are destroyed by a great and unparalleled earthquake and great hail stones. Then both are eaten by the beasts and birds.
Again, so what? Some snap-shots have details that others do not. Not every Gospel account has all of the same details. But they are still the same events.
See above.
Which lasts for a thousand years. Again, what is the point?
See my point above regarding the Gospels. Not every diverse account contains every detail. Otherwise there would only need to be one account.
Again, different perspectives. Everyone who is sent to hell is also buried physically. Not hard to reconcile.
Sorry so brief… I hope that this has helped….
August 26th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
I’ve felt that “Gog” could be a reference to the demonic spirit behind the man. There are many references to the spirits that build their empires through men (ie- princes of Persia/ Greece). Daniel makes reference to the angel that was delayed by the demonic spirit.
Just my 2 cents…
August 26th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
As to point #14, I take it the point is that the A.C. and Beast are human bodies possessed by Satan. They are killed and buried, then resurrected, given eternal bodies, and are the first to be cast into the Lake of Fire, alive of course. Isn’t this what happens at the Great White Throne Judgment 1000 year’s later, to the other rebellious?
I am always careful about such contradictions. For instance, John the Baptizer was looking at what he expected out of Messiah from scripture, compared it to Jesus, and said, “So who are you?” One can hardly blame him. Just look at the scripture that zooms from “gentle and riding on the the colt of an ***” to a conquering Messiah a couple of sentences later. That is pretty confusing to someone who, unlike us, does not have the luxury of seeing everything laid out in context.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
El Gallo,
Right. Basically what I am saying in this article is that by and large we should avoid overly-detailed notions about the end times and stick with the general basics. And if we recognize that most prophetic passages basically point to the same general events, it is actually fairly simple. The Antichrist and his armies will rise from the Middle east, they will attack Israel. Jesus will return to defeat them. When we get into endless speculations about isolated passages to the exclusion of others we always complicate the matter and only serve to confuse the Body of Christ.
As usual, God Knows Best.
Joel
August 26th, 2008 at 8:02 pm
Andrew,
Titus led the army that destroyed the Temple. But the soldiers were from Legions that were stationed in Syria, Turkey, and Egypt. The people themselves, many were Roman citizens but they were not European. Many make false equation that Roman equals Italian. The Roman empire engulfed much of the Middle East. The “people” that destroyed the Temple were the people of the Middle East. Syrians, Arabs, Egyptians. In our book, God’s War on Terror, Walid and I document extensive sources from Josephus, Tacitus and other ancient historians that make this point abundantly clear. Romans 9 must correlate with all of the other relevant passages that speak about the AC empire. Daniel2, 8, 9, 11 all point to Syria / Asia Minor. Ezekiel 38,39 also point to this region. The use of the name Assyrian also points to this region. All of these passages paint one consistent picture.
Bless you, Joel
August 26th, 2008 at 10:51 pm
For the record, I disagree, but Joel knows that ; )
The BEST analysis I’ve seen written that totally supports why the Gog/Magog war and the war of Armageddon are different is this 14-page Word document by author Douglas Berner at this link…
http://tinyurl.com/Gog-vs-Armageddon-War
Read it and decide for yourselves. I think Berner’s analysis is superb. Thank you Security Mom for reminding me of Douglas Berner’s book!
August 26th, 2008 at 11:25 pm
Armageddon,
I came to Joel’s conclusion before I read his view. It was just that I was reading Ezekiel 38-39, and it was clear that Israel and the world recognized Yahweh’s sovereignty. Where is there thereafter logical room for the world to turn to the AC?
August 27th, 2008 at 12:33 am
ALL OF THEM ARE THE SAME! Gog ends with a feast…same feast in Revelation 19. We published this 12 years ago. Same conflagration…well said. Exact same war and same verbage in each account…
August 27th, 2008 at 12:39 am
Tom,
Everyone that is His hears His voice…to loathe or dismiss prophecy is to dismiss Messiah…it means you haven’t handed oveer the reigns. Walid is doing the best he knows how and for you to attack his understanding is shameful. I can tell by the tone of your post that you would like for this boat to keep floating a little longer. The door is about to shut…get on board with the captain. Christ IS the spirit of Prophecy…no prophecy…no christ. Just like our whore assemblies (Sat & Sun)
August 27th, 2008 at 6:02 am
Thanks Scot. Being someone who knows Walid, who has read the various left-wing attacks against him as well as his responses, I can attest that Walid is no fraud. He is the real deal. Just the other week, I was sitting at a dinner table with a collection of characters. Israelis, Jews, (one was a former Mossad agent) and a few former PLO. Walid was chatting a friend and his wife who Walid grew up with in Bethlehem. They had not seen each other in nearly 30 + years. His friend is a devout Christian. They were chatting about old times, attacking Israeli soldiers as teenagers together etc. Walid has nothing to hide, other than his home address. But the left is determined to discredit him simply because he is a pro-Israel Zionist who tells the truth.
Blessings, Joel
August 27th, 2008 at 9:11 am
Great comments everyone! I like big discussions - good stuff. Thanks for the point by point Joel.
El Gallo - “Where is there thereafter logical room for the world to turn to the AC?”
Just a wild thought here…people at first may not realize he’s the AC. AC could claim he brought the fire/hailstones/earthquake to destroy the invaders.
“It was clear that Israel and the world recognized Yahweh’s sovereignty.”
Perhaps they recognize it is God’s doing…but they mistake Who God is.
Just throwing a thought out there….
August 27th, 2008 at 9:19 am
Tom a Follower of Christ,
What exactly makes one a Bible Scholar? Is it a piece of paper from a prestigious university or someone who shows himself approved by researching the scriptures? Remember that God uses the simple to confound the wise. So do not be so hasty to shrug aside people like Walid Shoebat otherwise you might as well shrug off most of the disciples being that they were only fisherman and perhaps even Jesus himself since he was a simple carpenter. I am not saying that Walid or Joel are exactly right on what they have researched and they don’t claim to be 100% sure but what we are commanded to do is to watch and pray and test prohesy. So for your own benefit I think it would be wise to consider what Walid says might be wisdom from the Lord and maybe it isn’t but we will all find out eventually. In the meantime you are right we need to make sure our personal lamps are full and help other to come to the saving knowledge of our Lord.
God Bless you.
August 27th, 2008 at 9:43 am
Great truths Joel. I have been trying to explain this to people for over a year. I was convinced when I first compared the two passages and realized the great feast/sacrificial meal at the end of both. I saw right away that everything else made sense and the objections didn’t stand.
Thanks for your clear explanation.
August 27th, 2008 at 10:04 am
Securitymom…..
“Perhaps they recognize it is God’s doing…but they mistake Who God is.”
Not possible because God will no longer let them pollute His Name. This brings to mind a passage…
Jhn 5:43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
I believe this is not the ac, but in fact the false prophet. What does a false prophet do ? but lead people from the truth. Israel will receive him and accept the ac and his covenant of death, per the leading of the fp. This is the beginning of the end. Remember the islamic Jesus contrives that mohaamed was the last true prophet from God, even converts others to islam himself. And maybe the mahdi is the reincarnated mohaamed. How does he do this ? Lying signs and wonders.
I hope I am making sense. I was in a wreck recently, banged up with a pretty good concussion. I’m not sure I am thinking right yet, if I ever did.
God Bless You
David
August 27th, 2008 at 10:17 am
When the “thousand years are over” . . . then God and Magog. (See Scripture below)
Seems to me that the Gog/Magog battle is after the Millennium not before it. It will be a period according to Ezekiel when Israel is prosperous and defenseless as she has beaten her weapons into plow shares. However, God comes to her rescue in a very supernatural way.
When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth — Gog and Magog — to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:7-10 NIV)
August 27th, 2008 at 10:48 am
Dear Joel,
Thanks for another excellent article! You are blessed to have a clear and concise hand when it comes to write the Truth.
Your book with Walid is simply excellent! Thanks to both of you for such clarity and simplicity. Things are so much easier than these scholars out there want to make them look!
Abba is not an Elohim of confusion, is He?
When we see what is happening on the international scene right now, it is not difficult to feel that the end of time Gog and Magog battle is not too far round the corner!
Like Mark Biltz shows: give us another 7 more years, and we’ll see!
;-)
May Abba bless and keep you. May His protection blood be upon you and your family.
FX
August 27th, 2008 at 10:53 am
Christians are so anxious to see Prophecy (any prophecy fulfilled) they will chase after people claiming to know specific details.
Let The Holy Spirit interpret scripture for you not men who’s only interest is to sell books.
Leave Prophecy up to God and be about The Fathers work.
Timothy described it best.
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
August 27th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Tom a follower of Christ,
You are right, I will surround myself with teachers that suit my desires such as my desire to see the Lord coming again to defeat evil once for all. Do you criticise a young child awaiting his fathers return home with eager expectation. If not, do not criticise other brothers and sisters for waiting eagerly for His return. It seems to me that you are suggesting we all should just keep working and allow the Lord to surprise us. While I agree that we should continue the work of the Lord, I will not ignore any prophetic possibilities. I think as a church we would be remiss to do such a thing. Remember the Bible (I think Paul) says that He would come back like a thief in the night but we (Christians) are not to be surprised at his coming because we have been forewarned. Also, in regards to Walid selling his books, how do you judge another man’s motives? You can not unless you know his heart and only God knows his heart so if you want to leave anything up to God leave the judging.
V/r,
TrumpofGod
August 27th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
I have to say Joel has done his homework. I disagree with some of his arguments though because some simply boil down to “I think this makes perfect sense” while the other said says “This doesn’t make sense to me.” Some of these arguments simply come down to what makes sense. God has given us the ability to reason and we should use it however some things will not be simple to understand and therfore we must look at the whle picture. In so doing there is a lot to look at and I must say what Joel writes makes sense but for me some of what is written by those in disagreement also makes sense. I must look at all and deicde for myself. I will be spending quite a while compiling all the data and arguments to come to my own conclusion and as time goes by and if we are indeed living in the end times I think it will become more clear.
My biigest issue witgh the Islamic end time paradiogigm is the Gog battle being the same as Armageddon. But when you see how man paralllels there are it makes sense to think they may be the same thing. However just one thought on this, sometimes there is double fullfilment of prophecy. Additionaly Jesus came once and will come a second time. People living in the old testament times probably read the scriptures and saw the two events as one. We may see the battle of Gog and Magog as one when they are really two events.
Tom,
All scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.(2 Timothy 3:16) This includes prophecy. I don’t know your heart but if you are not interested in prophecy and think no one else should be either than why are you on this website and why have you studied prophecy for 25 years. You haven’t offered any alternative view you have just said don’t look at prophecy. Do you hold a double standard and that only you should look at prophecy?
Do you remember in the wizard of Oz when the Wizard tells Dorothy to pay no attention to the man behind the curtain? I’m open to hearing your thoughts.
August 27th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Tom,
you are in the wrong place. We all joyfully wait for His appearing! We also evangelize and love the ekklessia of God. it is not impossible to serve the Lord and interpret Bible prophecy. Lighten up and maybe you’ll learn something.
August 27th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Tom,
You err in that you lump together “men” with those whose “only intent is to sell books”.
Thus you flippantly, and in grave error, condemn ALL “men” who might deign tto opine as to the interpretation of Biblical prophecy.
But, let me ask you this: If we are NOT to investigate, mull, ponder, opine, discuss, and digest the Biblical prophecies with the intent to gain understanding of them as the Spirit may allow, then what is the point of Father God having included them in His Word to begin with??
Does it not stand out to you as obvious that the very fact that God has given us this HUGE prophetic record is — of itself — the principle argument for His intent that we READ it, and attempt by His Spirit to understand what it means??
More gravely: if we shun prophecy, and ignore the words that God has given us by the mouths of His prophets, how can we possibly lay claim to being lovers of Truth (cf. 2 Thess. 2:10)??
I address you with great empathy, sir, because you are now where I have come from, and I with all love and grace in Christ Jesus adjure you before the Throne of He that is Faithful and True: receive the WHOLE counsel of God; consume His ENTIRE Word (prophecy included), and LIVE!
August 27th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Bible Prophecy is important to The Gospel, they go hand in hand.
We can do something about The Gospel by doing The Lords work, we can do nothing about the prophecies concerning Israel and the coming End Times.
Interpretation is just that “interpretation” with no clear cut time lines as so many are seeking. Not Joel or Walid know of Gods time line for Ezekiel 38-39 and no human alive knows what region or country the antichrist will come from as Walid claims, anyone who even suggests fore knowledge of this is being arrogant and deceptive.
I want my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ to better understand Bible Prophecy, when we do this it will make us better prepared when we talk to others about The Saving Grace of Jesus.
August 27th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Tom,
For what it is worth, if you would like to read my book or my open evangelistic letter to the President of Iran, you may do so, as it is posted for free for anyone to read at Answering-Islam.org:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/JR/index.htm
Bless you, Joel
August 27th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
If I bought your book it would mean that I supported your’s and Mr Shoebats interpretation. Can’t do it, but I will read your letter.
August 27th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
Tom,
You misunderstood me. My book is free to read online. I figured if I gave it away for free, I could make more money. (Since that is who I am to you, apparently). Anyway, its called Will Islam Be Our Future. This is simply an online title for my Antichrist book. We used a different title to try to get more Muslims to read it. Enjoy.
Also if you go the e-mail dialogue section of this site, you can read several published letters of my correspondance / reaching out to Muslims: http://www.answering-islam.org/Emails/index.htm I have always been an evangelism guy before ever being and end time guy. Every letter signed by “Lazarus” was written by me.
Bless you, Joel
August 27th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
Joel,
I’ll take the time to read it.
I like a good debate. If I didn’t care, I would never have made my first post here
Thanks, and Blessing to you as well.
With Respect.
Tom
August 27th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
Tom,
You can apologize to Joel and Walid anytime. You were quite rude with your own “prophetic” knowledge of their reasons for selling their book.
This site has a close family atmosphere and I feel offended when someone unfairly attacks a commenter/poster.
August 28th, 2008 at 10:52 am
The overwhelming clincher of Gog vs Armageddon for me is one thing Joel already mentioned - the fact that upon conclusion of God’s triumph, NO ONE WILL EVER PROFANE HIS HOLY NAME AGAIN.
Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
This simply cannot happen if Gog is anything other than Armageddon. The fact that modern prophecy teachers seem to miss that is surprising, to say the least (but then again, I did too for years).
Another of Joel’s points, with regard to the “haven’t I been telling you about Gog through the prophets for years?” thing (38:17) - I recently started to look for Gog details in previous prophets, based on their chronology. The following ten prophets lived and prophesied before Ezekiel (592 BC, approx. start date) -
Joel (825 BC)
Isaiah (740 BC)
Micah (750 BC)
Nahum (663 BC)
Zephaniah (640 BC)
Jeremiah (627 BC)
Habakkuk (609 BC)
Hosea (710 BC)
Amos (755 BC)
Obadiah (841 or 586 BC - depends on who he was)
So conceivably, any or all of these prophets may have spoken about Gog. And if he is nowhere else mentioned specifically by the name which is given to Ezekiel, then he HAS GOT to be there in some other capacity and it is up to us to determine where he is.
Joel, for example - prophesied over 250 years before Ezekiel, and describes what, mostly - a war. Some comparisons -
1. Joel 1:6 and Ezekiel 38:4-7 - invasion by a huge army
2. Joel 2:20 and Ez 38:15 - attacker from the north
3. Joel 2:18-19 and Ez 38:25 - similar restoration promises
4. Joel 2:27 and Ez 39:21-29 - never again be ashamed
5. Joel 3:1 and Ez 39:28 - God pours out His spirit
6. Joel 3:3 and Ez 38:22 - blood, fire & smoke
And that’s just scratching the surface of one prophet.
I believe that the Gog invasion is pretext to the abomination of desolation and that both the book of Joel and Ez 38-39 encompass the entire Great Tribulation period, resulting in the wrath of God (beginning at the sixth seal) and the subsequent battle of Armageddon. In other words, the Gog invasion starts the final war and the battle of Armageddon wraps it up.
The removal of the temple sacrifice is even in Joel too, described as an invasion event -
Joel 1:5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth.
Joel 1:6 For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.
Joel 1:7 He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white.
Joel 1:8 Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth.
Joel 1:9 The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the LORD; the priests, the LORD’S ministers, mourn.
I agree with Joel - so much of Bible prophecy is simpler than we make it.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
agrace,
Awesome post! Good job. We need more folks like you who do their homework. A true Berean.
Bless you, Joel
August 28th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
gog magog war could be armaggedon sure , But my thing is they have a marker set up ((( here lays gog and his hordes ))) and if they were killed and buried as scripture says this would make sense , but to Joel and others who I respect believe that after gog antichrist is killed buried he is then raised up thrown into the lake of fire , well if this is true (( why would the marker say here lays gog and his hordes )) wouldnt it say gog and his hordes were killed here ? and not here lays gog and his hordes ???
and it mentions gog and his hordes not gog and his false prophet or anything like that looking forward to the responce ,Joel my friend as always Blessings and peace .
August 28th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
sarkozy has roots in the ottoman empire google it , greek ,turkish,thessolnikki, . wierd Med union ?
August 29th, 2008 at 9:14 am
Hi rasuljacob,
You appear to be diligently seeking the truth in these matters. Many use the argument of Gog being buried vs the AC being thrown into the lake of fire alive. Consider the following scripture which is referring to the AC as the “little horn”.
Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Notice that the 4th beast was slain, his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. Using the logic that says Gog can’t be the AC also leads to the AC not being able to be the AC…lol.
Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
The beasts are defined as “kings” and so are the horns. The beast (king) was slain, his body destroyed,……..So here we see a clear example of the AC actually dying. If Gog can’t be the AC then neither can the beast/little horn because he dies too.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
And here is one from the New Testament. Jesus destroys the AC with the brightness of His coming, consumes him with the spirit of his mouth. There is no mention here of being thrown alive into the lake of fire. The terminology used in Rev 19 points toward the AC and FP avoiding the great white throne judgment. They are simply cast directly into the lake of fire upon their death rather than waiting until after the millennium when all others are tossed into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Here we see Satan being cast into the lake of fire after the 1,000 years have ended. Notice that it says “where the beast and false prophet are”. They are already in the lake of fire before Satan is. And all three are in there before the rest of the dead are judged at the GWTJ. Most men have to wait until the 1,000 years have expired while the AC/beast and FP are thrown in before the millennium. That is the best way I have found to reconcile these seemingly contradictory scriptures. Of course we know all scripture is the truth so there are no contradictions just lack of understanding on our part. But just because Gog isn’t said to be thrown into the lake of fire alive doesn’t mean he can’t be the AC as the AC himself is shown slain in Dan 7 and destroyed in 2Th2.
Peace,
Seeker
August 29th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
think as a church we would be remiss to do such a thing. Remember the Bible (I think Paul) says that He would come back like a thief in the night but we (Christians) are not to be surprised at his coming because we have been forewarned.
The ones who don’t know what time he is coming are those who are in darkness…not believers. That is where YHWH’s feasts come in…they are his set times.
August 29th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
If the Gog war is a totally seperate and preceding war .. followed by the Trib.. then what kind of world would Israel occupy?
It would be surrounded by devasated, obliterated countries…. an inner ring of wasteland… and then what? an outer-outer ring of countries that are its real Anti-Christ-ian enemies?
It makes no sense
September 14th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
Daniel ch.#11:36-39 if viewed through the lens of current events reveals that the A.C will 1) exalt himself above every god ( vs. 36 ). 2) He will honor a god of forces ( vs.38 ) 3) He will honor a god his fathers did not know ( sounds like the Islamic god Allah to me ) with gold & silver and pleasant things (vs.38 ). 4) He will act against the strongest fortresses with a foriegn god ( again Allah ) which he shall acknoledge, and cause them to rule over many and divide the land for gain ( vs.39 ). What this is telling you is Gog ( Russia ) will overrun Israel with the coalition of Islamic nations mentioned in EZEK. 38-39 and then the land will be distributed to the Islamic nations at a price. I agree that the A.C & Gog are the same individual and that Ezek. 38-39 and Armegeddon are the same event, i just don’t agree that the A.C is Islamic. Personally, i think it’s Putin.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
r.bitting,
Again, Gog cannot be Russia. The reasons are multiple. First, because you agree that Gog and the AC are one and the same, then we can also look to Daniel 2, 7, 9 And dozens upon dozens of other passages that all point to the Middle east.
http://www.joelstrumpet.com/?p=1342
Daniel 9 for instance. Who were the people who destroyed the Temple? The Syrians, Arabs and Egyptian citizens that were conscripted into the Eastern Legions of the Roman Army.
http://www.joelstrumpet.com/?p=1385
This must flow with what we believe about Ezekiel 38. Daniel 2 tell us that the AC empire would be “Arab”. Ezekiel 38 must coalesce with these passages. Only an Islamic / Middle Eastern identification can do this. What we do know from the internal context of Ezekiel 38 is that Gog is from the land of Magog and is the head over Mesheck and Tubal. We know that Mesheck and Tubal are EASTERN Asia Minor, ie., Turkey. (see my discussion above) There are two possible interpretations regarding Magog. The first is that Magog is Scythia and the second is that Magog is Eastern Turkey / Lydia whose King was called Gyges (Greeks) or Gugu (Assyrians). Only Eastern Turkey makes sense contextually because as the head of Mesheck and Tubal that would place him as the head of Eastern Turkey / Asia Minor. But if we do go with the Scythia position, then we are looking mostly to Kazakhstan, and several of the former Soviet nations to the south of Russia. But Russia would barely be touched upon by the Scythian identification. Regarding the Daniel passages cited, these all point to the Islamic God Allah. The God of War / Jihad, whom the AC honors. He rejects that God of his fathers which is always a Biblical term referring to “Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Issac, an Jacov”. It may surprise you that Putin is a Christian. Americans may laugh at this, but Russian believers I know are adamant that he is a devout Russian Orthodox believer who makes pilgrimages to Mt. Athos each year. Anyway…as an Ishmaelite, a Muslim would be rejecter of the God of Abraham (his father). All passages must flow together nicely. The idea that it is Russia is only arrived at through this one passage and through highly questionable methods / interpretations. We need to hold a position that allows all of the numerous passages to flow together nicely. Only the Islamic position can do this. Sorry for being so brief.
Blessings, Joel