Deconstructing the Roman End Time Paradigm
By Joel Richardson
A month ago in Prophezine, I wrote about the new book that Walid Shoebat and myself just released entitled God’s War on Terror: Islam, Prophecy and the Bible. As I mentioned then, Walid and I have put together a comprehensive Scriptural presentation as to why there is presently a revolution taking place within the world of Biblical prophecy. The revolution is away from the Roman End-Time Paradigm and towards the Islamic End Time Paradigm. Many students and teachers of Bible prophecy who have long believed and taught that the Antichrist, his religion and his empire will emerge from out of Europe are now acknowledging that this is not what the Bible teaches. Instead, the Antichrist, his religion and his empire will emerge from out of the Islamic lands of the Middle East. Yet, despite the many that are coming over to the Islamic End Time Paradigm, there are still many determined clingers to the Euro-centric position. Despite the overwhelming evidence throughout the Bible—from the Torah to the Book of Revelation—that the Antichrist will come from the Middle East and will be a Muslim, there are four primary passages that are still very often misinterpreted to support the false Roman End Time Paradigm. Those four passages are:
· Daniel 2: Nebuchadnezzar’s Dream
· Daniel 7: Daniel’s Dream of Four Gruesome Beasts
· Daniel 9: The People of the Prince To Come
· Revelation 17” The City on Seven Hills
Daniel 2 and Nebuchadnezzar’s Metallic Statue
In this brief article, I want to look at Daniel 2 and begin to deconstruct any notion that this passage is pointing us to an End Time Roman Empire.
Anyone that has studied Bible prophecy for any amount of time is somewhat familiar with the story of Daniel 2 and Nebuchadnezzar’s Dream of a great metallic statue. The image of the metallic statue was revealed to King Nebuchadnezzar in a dream and subsequently to Daniel the Prophet by the Holy Spirit. The statue is divided up into four (and arguably five) components, each representing a different world empire. Traditionally the components have most often been understood to be the following:
· Head of Fine Gold: Babylonian Empire
· Chest and Arms of Silver: Medo-Persian Empire
· Belly and Thighs of Bronze: Grecian Empire
· Legs of Iron: Roman Empire
· Feet of Iron and Clay: Revived Version of the Fourth Empire
While there are many reasons to agree with the identification of the first three empires, there are several very significant problems with identifying Rome as the fourth/fifth Empire. In this article, I want to highlight two reasons why this passage cannot be speaking of the Roman Empire.
Problem #1: Daniel 2:40 And The Rise of the Fourth Empire
The first criterion that the Bible gives us in our efforts to identify the fourth empire is the nature of its rise. Speaking of the rise of the fourth empire, the Bible says:
And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. —Daniel 2:40
When the fourth empire was to arise in history, the Bible tells us that in doing so, it would break or crush all three of the previous empires. So as the fourth empire arose, it would crush or break into pieces: Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece. If we are to think of the primary capitals or regional strongholds of these ancient empires in modern terms we could say that Babylon was centered largely in modern day Iraq, Medo-Persia in modern day Iran, and the capital of the Hellenistic Greek Empire today would be the Balkans, Greece and Turkey. So the question must now be asked, did the Roman Empire upon its rise—or ever—crush all three of these empires and the regions that we are speaking of? The clear answer is no, it did not. The Roman Empire did conquer the western-most edges of these empires, but did not conquer the primary geographic strongholds of two out of three of the empires. Lets look at some maps to get a better visual:
If we take the time to study these maps, we can very clearly see that the Roman Empire never conquered more than half of any of the three empires and never even reached the primary geographic stronghold of the Persian Empire. While the ancient city of Babylon, (the actual location that the dream was given), in A.D. 116 under Emperor Trajan was taken by the Roman troops, within months Trajan died and the troops withdrew. All things considered, the Roman Empire, at the time of its greatest eastward expansion, was only able to conquer the western portions of all three of these empires. However, if we look to the Scriptural criteria given to us to identify the fourth empire, we can clearly see that only the Islamic Empire conquered all three of the previous empires. Today, Babylon (Iraq), Medo-Persia (Iran) and Greece (Turkey) are all Islamic territories. The evidence is staring us in the face, yet most have missed this obvious reality. The Islamic Empire meets the Biblically defined geographic description of Daniel 2:40 but the Roman Empire does not.
Problem #2: Daniel 2:34-35 And the Fall of the Final Empire
Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. —Daniel 2:34-35
In case you are not convinced by the previous argument, the Lord has given us yet another very similar geographic pointer. In Daniel 2:40, we saw the nature of the rise of the Antichrist Empire, and in Daniel 2:34-35 we see the geographic parameters of the Antichrist Empire as it will exist when Christ returns. Here we are told that when Christ returns, when His kingdom crushes the empire of the Antichrist, once again, all three of the previous Empires will be crushed as well. So now, I ask you, if Jesus returned today and crushed the Roman Empire, would Iraq (Babylon) also be crushed in the process? What about Iran (Persia)? The clear answer once again is no, it would not. Yet the Bible says that “the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, [will be] broken to pieces together.” No matter how hard one might try, the Roman Empire simply cannot be twisted or stretched to meet these Scriptural geographic requirements. But if Christ returned and destroyed the Islamic Empire, then indeed, Iraq (Babylon), Iran (Persia) and Greece (Turkey) would all be destroyed as well. No longer can we look to Europe for the eventual rise of the Empire of the Antichrist. The Lord has already made it abundantly clear that the Empire of the Antichrist and the Islamic Empire are one and the same. Beloved, the Antichrist Empire is staring us all in the face.
In God’s War on Terror, Walid and I walk through dozens upon dozens of Scriptural reasons why the Church has been looking in the wrong direction. In my latest DVD set, Islam & The End Times, I also walk through this passage in great detail. I encourage you to study both of these resources. As the end of this age approaches, it is critical that the Church begins to wake up and recognize the Beast that is even now just before us. The time is short, the King is at the door; let us awaken our hearts to repentance, holiness, sobriety, intimacy, and the fear of the Lord. And let those with understanding also awaken and alert the slumbering Church to the storm clouds that are even now forming over the whole earth.
Click Here To Purchase Islam & The End Times DVD Set
Click Here To Purchase God’s War on Terror: Islam, Prophecy and The Bible
July 27th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Joel, will God’s War on Terror: Islam, Prophecy and The Bible, be on DVD?
I bought Islam and the End Times DVD and thought it was good, but would like to watch this other book presented on DVD if possible.
July 27th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
That would take about fifty DVD’s.
I will be doing Part II to the Islam and the End Times Seminar in February. Another four or five sessions. What topics do you think would be the most important to cover?
Walid also has a 5 DVD series on this stuff. If you call 877-832-7200 you can order it. Ask for Keith. Tell him I sent you.
July 27th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Twice I tried to enter a post here and it didn’t take. Joel, you might get two that are almost identical. Please omit one if you can. Not sure what happened.
July 27th, 2008 at 8:38 pm
I underscored between two letter in the one words that I think Wordpress is having an issue with. : )
Hi Joel. As far as what topics to cover, I would say anything that provides an_alysis on the prophetic meaning of bible verses that support the Islamic end time paradigm that have heretofore been overlooked, and why. You touched on it in the DVD I bought, but the more the better.
Hey, if it takes a 50 DVD set, we’ll all be richer for it, but especially you - LOL!
Thanks Joel for all you’re doing to further the cause and open people eyes. If it were not for so many of the things the RCC was and is guilty of, it would be easy to shake the old way of thinking, but the RCC makes it too easy to cling to it. I’ve let go, but I still see their possible involvement somewhere along the line, maybe in giving credence to Issa, false prophet, etc.
July 27th, 2008 at 8:41 pm
Yup, that’s the word. I think Joel you warned me in the past that Wordpress blocks posts that use this word, but I had forgotten.
July 27th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
This book has floored me! Every Christian MUST read this book! After reading numerous books on Islam and the endtimes, I can say that this books sums them all up and then some. Thank you Lord Jesus for Walid and Joel.
July 27th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
Javier,
Thanks much!
Armageddon,
I just went in and manually removed that word from my spam list. The probelm is that even with the block list, I still get hundreds of spam posts that I have to weed through every day. But that should hopefully make it less likely that some posts will get nuked.
July 27th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
Not to be a nitpicker, the conclusion of the end-time empire is Islamic, but the foundation empire that Joel generalizes as “Islamic” is historically the Ottoman Empire, the passages he shows lines up exactly with the Ottoman Empire.
The Ottoman Empire controlled Greece and Macedonia, controlled Babylon and Persia and when the empire was defeated, all three areas became independent either under their own rule or under the British rule.
When Greece and the Balkans rebelled the Ottoman Empire lost 1/3 of its territory, which led to the uprising of Iraq and Egypt, and i do believe Persia rebelled as well and joined the British.
If you line up the history you will see that the Ottoman Empire is the seventh empire. Each empire controlled the land of Israel the seventh empire to control it was the Ottoman, Rome/Byzantium being the sixth.
I think to do this argument justice, it must be shown in a historical context of the “Islamic” was the Ottoman Empire and that the eighth empire is what Joel is portraying.
July 28th, 2008 at 1:00 am
Problem #1:
“When the fourth empire was to arise in history, the Bible tells us that in doing so, it would break or crush all three of the previous empires.”
I’m not so sure that this is true. It says that the fourth kingdom will do 2 things to the previous 3:
“and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise”.
Some parts of the previous 3 kingdoms it will break and some parts it will bruise. “Bruise” is obviously much less severe than break as it implies only that some pain is inflicted whereas break is closer to “annihilation”. I am therefore not convinced that problem 1 really is a problem.
Problem #2:
I cannot see that because the statue is struck on the feet and all of the empires turn to dust why this MUST imply that the last kingdom encompasses all the previous 3. I think that is more of a Russian doll view of the statue. The statue represents a timeline. Therefore as we move from the head to the foot we are progressing in time. God’s kingdom comes at the time of the last kingdom. When God’s kingdom comes all of the world’s kingdoms disappear (the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and Christ).
Conclusion:
I’m playing devil’s advocate here because I do not have a definite stance on this issue (Rome/Islam). The biggest question if if Rome is not prophesied then why not. We can say that since the dream was given in Babylon it is therefore Babylon-centric.But even Babylon fell to Rome, if only for a short time. In the more likely scenario that its Israel-centric (like all other prophecy seems to be) then how come Rome could be missed?
July 28th, 2008 at 3:50 am
Very logic and very convincing, actually your interpretation inspired me with more evident proving its correctness:
1- The foot consists from 10 toes representing 10 kings and this go in direct parallel with the 10 horns mentioned in Daniel 7:7 and also with the 10 horns mentioned in Revelation book 12:3 , 13:1 and 17:3 , the Revelation book interpreted these 10 horns as follows :
(12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.) (Rev 17:12)
This proves that bible prophecies are consistent as they are all pointing out to the future end time rather than the past when speaking about these 10 horns.
2- The iron and clay represents the gathered earth nations which will form the Islamic empire under the role of those 10 kings where some of them are partly strong while the others are partly broken.
3- The stone smote the image upon his feet (which consist from 10 toes) that were of iron and clay, and broke them to pieces. (Daniel 2:34) , This also go in direct parallel with the passage of Revelation book (19:11 till 19:21) proving and demonstrating the futuristic nature of that event. http://www.geocities.com/mygoldcross/armageddon.html
Bless.
July 28th, 2008 at 6:02 am
Paul,
The “Islamic Empire” includes every manifestation of Islamic Empire from the beginning to its end. This includes the Ummayad, Abbasid, Fatamid, Ottoman etc. etc. Not just Ottoman. It culminated in the Ottoman Empire but they all fall under the same larger umbrella. No need to get too too picky.
Jeff,
If you dig in and do some solid word searches etc you will see that in either the rise or the fall of the Fourth / Fifth empire speak of a concurrent and complete destruction of all three of the previous empires. By repeating this theme twice, the passage is a quite solidly emphasizing this. There are several other reasons why we are looking to the Middle East within this passage as well but I only wanted to begin to deconstruct it, not give a comprehensive analysis. Why it does not include Rome in the passage is simply because it does not. Rome is included in Revelation 17, so it is not as if the Bible ignores Rome, but Rome was much more western in its location than Babylon where this dream took place. And Babylon was only conquered for a couple of months and well after it had already decayed into an utter ruin. For the overarching majority of Rome’s existence it was several hundred miles away from Babylon, which again, is the actual geographic location / context of the dream.
Gold Cross,
The more one sees these passages the more that they all line up and flow together nicely. In Daniel 7, the last Beast i(fourth empire) correlates to the legs of the statue, while the horns are the feet (revival / final manifestation of the fourth empire). You got it brother.
July 28th, 2008 at 7:01 am
joel,
How do we know if this revolutionary paradigm is being accepted widely? I’m very interested if there are any sites that is starting to promote this
July 28th, 2008 at 7:03 am
.. other than the links listed in this blog, of course.
July 28th, 2008 at 7:48 am
Chuck Missler has jumped on board.
Before he passed, Zola Levitt came on board.
Ray Gano of Prophezine is wholeheartedly on board.
Rodrigo Silva of Bible Prophecy in the News is wholeheartedly on board.
I continually get e-mails from numerous Pastors and every day believers that are jumping on board daily, most often expressing how clear it suddenly all is. And I’m sure that there are many others that I am unaware of.
July 28th, 2008 at 9:41 am
Joel,
I have not commented before. I finished your book, Islam’s Awaited Messiah, in one day. I believe that God directed me to this book as I have been seeking truth in the matter of prophecy and end times events. I do not know how I found your book, a link to a link to a link and then too Amazon.com to buy it! I feel as if a light was turned on in my head. It all is so much clearer now! My 14 year old daughter even made a comment last night about all of it. She mentioned how interesting it was that the Arabs (who happen to be majority Muslim) came from the brother of Isaac, Ishmal. That the family line was like the opposite of the family line of Isaac. Wouldn’t it make sense then that the opposite of Christ would stem from that line as well? It really is suddenly becoming very clear. I also would like to know how many others are being awakened to this. I like to think that the Lord is preparing his people for what is to come soon, so we will not be decieved (as Jesus stated in Matthew that even the elect would be decieved if it were possible, He warned us).
Joel, I especially appreciated the love you showed for the muslim people at the beginning of your book. That displayed to me your character and that I could put some trust into the words that you wrote. Very well written book, well documented. I passed it on.
July 28th, 2008 at 11:32 am
Technically true, but the one empire that does fit the criteria that you lay out, was the Ottoman, it was the one that conquered Byzantine, as Rome conquered Macedonia, as Macedonia conquered Persia, as Persia conquered Babylon, ect.
Also it was the one to conquer Israel from the Byzantium Empire and it was the one that lost Israel and from that Israel became a nation once again.
Each empire you layout is in their own right their own power and unique, but none of them, except the Ottoman Empire continue the progression of the previous six.
1. Controlling Israel
2. Defeating the previous empire to claim their land.
3. Being defeated by the next empire.
These three are the most common traits that all seven empires have together, though the other Islamic empires may have some similarities, ultimately it all focus on the Ottoman Empire as the seventh.
The Ottoman is unique that another empire did not take its place, another empire defeated them, but England had no real intentions of forming an Middle-east Empire, afterward it granted their Independence from England and at the same time Israel became a nation for the first time in 2000 years.
This is why i am more specific than general, with the theory.
July 28th, 2008 at 11:33 am
You’re totally correct that the Middle East is the geographic center of endtime prophecy. Not Europe.
BUT…. it’s it’s pretty much a foregone conclusion in Prophecy circles that Europe, Vatican City, pope, Roman Empire, etc are not to be challenged. It ’s written in stone from way back. (which in itself is a bad sign, since the truth was not to be revealed till the time of the end).
Maybe some few who’ve made a lifetime career of predicting the prophetic future will come to see the truth, but it’s unlikely they’ll admit a lifetime of error to the public.
July 28th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
Paul
I think it is the lands of the middle East that is being spoken of in these prophecies. it’s like a little fish that is eaten by a bigger fish and then that one is eaten by an even bigger fish, etc.. Babylon is eaten by Media Persia and it incorperates more lands forming a larger empire. Then Greece conquers Media-Persia and incorperates even more Middle eastern land into itself and becomes an even larger empire. Rome didn’t do that. Then later the land was once again eaten, taking in all of the lands of 4 kingdoms of the Grecian empire, by the Muslem empire, and they then added more lands to become an even larger empire. In them are the lands of all the former empires of the middle east and their descendents. When the last empire is crushed… then with them also the former empires of those lands are crushed with it. Just like if you were to catch the last and biggest fish and eat it. Then you have eaten all fish that that fish consumed before. So that is why all of the Islamic empires are really just one. When the Ottoman empire fell the Islamics still owned the land, and are still untited in their belief, and will be revived in the end days as the 8th head, and will try to take over the world for Allah.
In Him
Norma
July 28th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
Diana, Thanks! Glad it ministered to you. Blessings, Joel
July 28th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Norma, Very well stated.
July 28th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Paul, Gotcha. Of course it was the Umayyad that conquered J’lem initially and Iraq and Iran. I view the various Islamic Empires including the Ottoman as more of a series of Islamic dynasties within the larger Islamic Empire, so one could look at it either way. I simply don’t want to limit to to the Ottoman only.
The darkest comes first:
The expansion of the caliphate under the Umayyads.
Expansion under the Prophet Mohammad, 622-632
Expansion during the Patriarchal Caliphate, 632-661
Expansion during the Umayyad Caliphate, 661-750
We also need to remember that the text says that it will be an “Arab” Empire. Where did the empire emerge from? Arabia. It began there and culminated in the Ottoman.
Blessings, Joel
July 28th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
Bonsoir Joel,
I devoured your and Walid’s book the day I received it. I read it straight and just wanted to congratulate both of you. It’s excellent, well written and offers the definitive truth on the end of time issue.
After reading it, everybody who is humble and looking for THE truth will reach the same conclusion Walid and you reached.
Congratulations!
May Abba use it to open people’s eyes so that they get ready for the big show ahead…
Yah bless y’all!
FX
July 28th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
FX, Thanks much brother. Blessings to you. Joel
July 28th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Good afternoon Joel, Great post. As you know, I believe in the Islamic Paradigm but I do not believe the various verses show it arising the way you suggest.
In your view, it leaves out the West and has difficulty explaining certain word nuances in the chapters you quoted above - esp in Chapter 2. I feel that your paradigm uses some of the same semantic habits - that the RCC paradigm has historically used.
The divergence I have is here. (I’m using Young’s literal Translation)
In chapter 2 - the word “hereafter” is used. That is the foundation of what the statue vision is. “The great God has shown you what is to be hereafter”.
28- “that which [is] to be in the latter end of the days”
29 - “that which [is] to be after this, and the Revealer of secrets hath caused thee to know that which [is] to be.
(That seems to suggest a continuing completeness of time)
More importantly, Daniel clearly states what is required to be a “Metal” by stating what Nebuchadnezzar’s metal was.
38 “and whithersoever sons of men are dwelling, the beast of the field, and the fowl of the heavens, He hath given into thy hand, and hath caused thee to rule over them all; thou [art] this head of gold.”
So then, “rule over them all” is the preeminent qualifier. Daniel is not talking about Babylon ruling over the Medes or Persians or Greeks. He is talking about Babylon ruling as a WORLD EMPIRE and “THAT” is the idea carried forward. And again Daniel makes the point when he talks about the 2nd AND the 3rd empires,
39 “And after thee doth rise up another kingdom lower than those, and another third kingdom of brass, that doth rule overall the earth.”
“that doth rule over the earth.”
At this point, we also learn about SUCCESSION of empires ruling over the earth - because Daniel inserts the words “after thee.”
We know there was no succession of empires after Nebuchadnezzar personally, but after his grandson. So Daniel is saying “after you” AFTER your empire, the next to bear rule over the whole earth will be a 2nd and a third.
So what is the determining factor as to what “bear rule over the whole earth” is?
You say it is having rule over Babylon. But Daniel does not say that. The determining factor here is “bear rule over the whole earth.” Not bear rule over Babylon - (which your view has to surmise from v 40 - and correlate from other chapters)
Does that mean each successive empire MUST absorb the other? Literally? Not in my mind - because the bear rule over the whole earth “IS” the driver not absorption (which up until this point hasn’t been discussed at all).
At Alexander’s death - the empire was divided - and so it can not be said the Grecian Empire literally ruled Babylon - unless 7 years qualifies (330-323BC).
It’s symbolic at the least. (The same symbolic way Rome ruled over Babylon in it’s day - by ruling over the earth)
The Seluceid did rule over Babylon - but they weren’t taking orders from Greece. They were their own Empire. The other 3 Grecian divisions were each ruling over something else - as their own empires.
So Grecian Beast/Brass “as a whole” is not one continuous Empire per se - but it was the various Greek sub divisions having nothing in common except language and history. THAT is what bore rule over the whole earth. This is terribly important as we will find this same concept in the Roman (4th) one as well.
So then, when did the Grecian Beast empire fall? At Alexander’s death? No, not really. It divided, and later, elements of the division fell to Rome - and that is what made Rome rule over the whole earth. By eliminating Grecian divisions as power centers. This, Rome clearly did. Otherwise one has to explain the destruction of the Grecian empire in another way. You do this through the Babylon absorption view - by an empire still future and disconnected; not even bearing rule over the earth - and the qualifiers above prevent that view.
So your point rests entirely on your strained interpretation of…
v40 And the fourth kingdom (that shall bear rule over the whole earth) is strong as iron, because that iron is breaking small, and making feeble, all [things], even as iron that is breaking all these, it beateth small and breaketh. (Young’s)
“beateth small and breaketh” or “breaketh and bruise” KJV
I don’t see absorption there and the only place it can be inferred is in the clause “breaking all these” - but regardless - it can not be shown that any empire after Greece - bore rule over the whole earth except Rome. (Even if the idea of succession is wrong.)
It is a giant leap to make the whole theory rest on this verse as to whether or not each empire must completely absorb the other. I know you said that the verses were repeated - seemingly to mean that Daniel was making a very important point - but if you read the entire chapter - you will see he also duplicates other points several times .
So what does all that mean? It means that your view as to what the IRON is - rests on the correct interpretation of verse 40 - pure and simple. It further means that if that view is wrong - then the explanation of v41
“the (4th)kingdom will be divided” is also wrong.
Why is that important? Well, we know the Grecian Empire was divided into 4 territories. But Daniel does not say that it was. (Not here in chapter 2)
However, Daniel says the 4th empire IS divided. Something, must be very different about the 4th empire’s division as opposed to the 3rd’s. That’s why he points it out. The difference is that the 3rd empire’s division had no bearing on whether it did nor did not rule over the whole earth. However, when it comes to the 4th - it does.
So the “division” of the 4th Empire MUST mean something else - compared to the division of the 3rd Empire.
Rule over the earth - in succession - and continuation is the only view which satisfies this.
Absorption of Babylon falls apart here too.
So again, continuation of one empire after the other, bearing rule over the earth, showing Nebuchadnezzar the entire historical view, until the STONE comes, is the correct view.
The 4th empire bearing world rule was Rome - which later divided and stayed divided - but even in it’s division - bore rule over the earth (like Greece) until the Stone came. No other Empire would bear rule over the earth, until the STONE.
From later chapters and detail - we learn that the AC empire comes up out of the Eastern half of the 4th empire - in exactly all the ways you suggest in your studies. (it still comes up - and it still produces the AC)
If this view is correct - it leaves us with the Western half and the Eastern half of the world intact - from the time of Rome - and the world drawn into an irrevocable East/West conflict, which we clearly see about us - and know the terrible end of.
This East/West conflict has lasted from the division of the Roman Empire to this very day - in many various forms.
Therefore, the RCC view, and the Islamic Babylon view are BOTH correct in a certain way - and that is why they have a hard time reconciling to each other. Each is seeing what they want to see - but they are both seeing truth - which can only be explained in a synthesis of both views.
And this is not Odd.
Martin Luther for different reasons, believed Antichrist was both the Papacy AND Mohammedanism - as did others throughout history.
I explain this in more detail on the “Mystery Babylon” thread in the discussion group.
jb
July 28th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
At this point it’s very relevant to point out that the RCC paradigm did not begin with the European Union. The EU was merely seen as the latest fulfillment of a much earlier view. That earlier view came about in order to explain Babylon sitting on 7 hills in Revelation 17. Babylon sitting on 7 hills as the Papacy - had it’s foundation in Luther’s Magisterial Reformation. Even so - Luther (among others) included Mohamedism as part of his Antichrist view.
So, the view has held for 500 years because there is/was an element of truth. (long before the EU).
Rev 17/18 therefore - in my view - shows the West as Babylon sitting on 7 hills - and the East as the Beast. West riding the East - until the East turns on her and burns her with fire.
Babylon’s singular feature in Rev - is that she is a massive consumer commercial thing - which is dependent on the Beast - until the 10 give their power to the AC.
Revelation 17 shows us the full blown end time world.
The question arises - what does the West have to do with Babylon? It is a type. And that is by no means a reach. The cities of the plains had been around 1000 years before the Babylonian Empire. Egypt had ruled the world before Babylon and so had Assyria. But it was the specifics of Babylon that Daniel was pointing out. That in the very last days, the world will be divided into East and West - and EACH HALF - would resemble Babylon in different ways.
Thus the harmony - and the division - in attempting to decipher these verses.
July 28th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
JB,
I’ll be honest, you have way overcomplicated this. You lost me about a third of the way in. As such, I’m not sure how to respond. The view articulated above is not only very easy to understand but it is also fairly unassailable. Rome simply doesn’t fit. I say this based on both Daniel 2:34-35 and 2:40. Beyond this, in verse 43, the Aramaic says straight away that the final kingdom will be “Arab”. Does this sound like Europe to you? This is simply another snap-shot of what all of the Prophets have been speaking about: namely that Christ returns to judge Muslim nations. Never once in the entire Bible is any European Nation ever mentioned for judgment when Christ returns. Yet the Middle East is named over and over again. Any view that does not synthesize with this is out of line with what the Bible so clearly says throughout. Later in Daniel 7, the vision of the Beasts, the fourth Beast is a conglomeration of the three previous. Once again, this simply does not fit with Rome but it does of Islam.
Cheers,
Joel
July 28th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
JB said, “”"So again, continuation of one empire after the other, bearing rule over the earth, showing Nebuchadnezzar the entire historical view, until the STONE comes, is the correct view…..”"”
Colossians 1:15-20 ~ “”"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him ~ all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers ~ all things were created through him and for him. He himself is before all things and all things are held together in him. He is the head of the body, the church, as well as the beginning, the firstborn from among the dead, so that he himself may become first in all things. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in the Son and through him to reconcile all things to himself by making peace through the blood of his cross ~ through him, whether things on earth or things in heaven.”"”
He [God] is the Head of the body [the Church].
Isaiah 14:13-14 ~ “”"You said to yourself, “I will climb up to the sky. Above the stars of El I will set up my throne. I will rule on the mountain of assembly on the remote slopes of Zaphon. I will climb up to the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High!””"
He [satan] will make himself like the Most High. And the Most High [God] is the Head of the body [Church].
Daniel 2:37-38 ~ “”"“You, O king, are the king of kings. The God of heaven has granted you sovereignty, power, strength, and honor. Wherever human beings, wild animals, and birds of the sky live ~ he has given them into your power. He has given you authority over them all. You are the head of gold.”"”
The visions of Daniel are for the time of the end and in the time of the end “whereever human beings…….. live” is more than the Promised Land and surrounding areas. Satan said he would make himself like the Most High. And in Dan. 2:37-38 Daniel tells Nebuchadnezzar ‘you are the head of gold.’ A little trickery by Daniel like Jacob with Esau, because Daniel undoubtedly knew that the true head was God not Nebuchadnezzar and the light was God’s Church not Nebuchadnezzar’s statue. Don’t forget that the Babylonian, Persian, and Greek empires of Daniel’s visions weren’t only dominions, but theocracies as well. Daniel would’ve also known that no human has ever had authority over wild animals or the birds of the sky. The Nebuchadnezzar personage in this dream is a mirror image of Satan.
And when JB says continuation of one empire after the other, I agree, because the vision continues seemingly as a parable using body parts [Isaiah used a parable of dry bones] that to the physical or carnal minded would seem to be a continuation narrative of worldly empires rather than a continuation narrative of God’s Church.
And as Colossians 1 records, “”"all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers ~ all things were created through him and for him.”"” All is all, of antiquity and of today, and thruout the bowl of time Satan has been trying to rule God’s Church and will continue to do so until the STONE [foundation Rock] returns.
July 28th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
Diana,
I have bought used copies (had to save $!) to pass on of Joel’s first book as well. It is an easy-read and states the importance of this awareness like no other of its type. Now, you need to order he & Walid’s new book to really get excited about all this. It’s much slower reading (small print and LOADS of info) but so very rich in eschatological importance and application to all that’s occuring around us these days. I am saving up to buy more copies to spread around. I certainly want my pastor to read it SOON!
Welcome to the family! These blogs are very informative also, as you might see from all the above.
Shalom
July 28th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
Gina,
Thank you! I have learned alot from this blog and others. God has also placed a new love in me for reading his word (after 14 years of being a christian one does tend to neglect the bible at different times). The new book you are writing about is God’s War on Terror? I will have to get that one soon!
Diana
July 29th, 2008 at 1:49 am
JB,
Do you have a link to Luther’s writings on the subject? Specifically about the Papacy and Mohamedism.
July 29th, 2008 at 6:49 am
Fred,
I think JB may have confused Luther with Calvin. Luther said only a few things briefly about this but Calvin has a well developed eschatology with the Papal systema nd Islam being the two horns of the Antichrist. E-mail me and I’ll get you the book in a PDF file.
July 29th, 2008 at 9:36 am
Joel, my apologies for being difficult to understand. It’s my fault. But please, bear with me. I will try to make myself clearer. My comments are in parenthesis.
****
I say this based on both Daniel 2:34-35
(I understand what you are saying here - but it requires you to disregard the 5 times Daniel says these 4 empires/beasts “rule over the entire earth” - but let’s say the first 3 are symbolically ruling over all the earth because we know they really didn’t - you can not imagine the 4th - the Islamic empire ruling over the entire earth - symbolically. If you say it rules literally - then your local Arab only Judgment falls apart - it would have to be world wide judgment in order to destroy an Islamic empire ruling world wide.)
and 2:40.
(Later)
Beyond this, in verse 43, the Aramaic says straight away that the final kingdom will be “Arab”.
(I can’t find that anywhere in Aramaic - perhaps you could put up a link)
Does this sound like Europe to you…..Christ returns to judge Muslim nations. Never once in the entire Bible is any European Nation ever mentioned for judgment when Christ returns.
(Jeremiah 25 should answer this - judgment is massive and global - to the ends of the earth and every nation. And I find many, many references to a massive global judgment)
Yet the Middle East is named over and over again. Any view that does not synthesize with this is out of line with what the Bible so clearly says throughout.
(again - if the judgment is global - there has to be no harmony. I believe the reason your view requires it - goes back to the Daniel 2’s divided kingdom verse - you misapply the beast - so you miss the importance of the division. IMHO - See the next statement)
Later in Daniel 7, in the vision of the Beasts, the fourth Beast is a conglomeration of the three previous. Once again, this simply does not fit with Rome but it does of Islam.
(Here you are saying that the first 3 Dan 7 beasts are the same as the Rev 15 Beast - composed of ,A lion, A bear, & A leopard. And you are right. That Revelation AC beast is a conglomeration of the territory of the 3 beasts in chapter 7.
That is an end time Islamic Empire (we’re at least agreed on what it is and where)
BUT - The 4th beast in chapter 7 - which would have to be your Islamic empire - does not have those 3 things, lion, bear, leopard. - it is just said to be terrible. Why is that? If that 4th beast was the Islamic Empire you say it is - why doesn’t Daniel just go ahead and describe it just like Rev 15 - esp since the other 3 and rev 15 correlate so very well. This 4th beast doesn’t have a single item of the other 3
Could it mean this 4th beast is something else - like the Roman Empire? The last one to bear rule over the whole earth.
That’s important - but this is more so. Notice that when the 10 horned Islamic Beast comes in Chapter 15 - he is missing something. Let’s see, he’s a lion, a bear and a leopard. He has 7 heads and ten crowns - geez, what’s he missing????
He’s missing Babylon the Whore riding on him. Ever Wonder why?
According to Donna and I suppose yourself - the Woman is INTEGRAL to the beast. How come she’s not there? Could it be that since the Beast attacks the Woman - she’s not integral at all? Like maybe she’s the Western World)
How do you harmonize all this?
I tell you how I harmonize it. The Woman is the West - and the Beast is the East. Daniel’s Chapter 2 shows the world splitting in 2. That’s why Daniel’s 4th beast can’t be harmonized to the Revelation beast. That’s why the 4th Beast bears rule over the whole earth - but the Islamic Beast doesn’t. That’s why the 4th Beast is divided.
Left leg/Right leg
White horse/Red Horse
Whore/Beast
Christendom/Islam
And I never say Europe it’s irrelevant. I only say the West. The totality of the West. The 2 Americas, Europe and the Colonies. Christendom.
Thanks brother, I really do appreciate you. I’m not a nit picker and I certainly am not argumentative. Your time is not wasted on me and I’m grateful for your gift in Christ.. jb
July 29th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
JB,
Sorry in a hurry here. I’m been a bit preoccpied with answering these polygamists. The link with Arab (3 times) is here:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Dan&chapter=2&verse=43&version=KJV#43
The NIV says: And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture (Arab) and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.
I’ll get back later.
Bless Ya, Joel
July 29th, 2008 at 10:45 pm
Both definition from http://dictionary.reference.com/:
Online Etymology Dictionary
Arab (n.)
c.1391 (Arabiens), from O.Fr. Arabe, from L. Arabs (acc. Arabem), from Gk. Araps (gen. Arabos), from Ar. ‘arab, indigenous name of the people, perhaps lit. “inhabitant of the desert” (rel. to Heb. arabha “desert”).
Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
Arab
Ar”ab\ (?; 277), n. [Prob. ultimately fr. Heb. arabah a desert, the name employed, in the Old Testament, to denote the valley of the Jordan and Dead Sea. Ar. Arab, Heb. arabi, arbi, arbim: cf. F. Arabe, L. Arabs, Gr. ?.]
July 29th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
Take your time buddy - I’ve been reading along with you - can see your hands are full.
July 30th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
I’m into the Islamic paradigm too. Joel has a link to my site: http://al-mahdi.atspace.com
Perhaps, you might be interested in this other article I have also: What about the Roman Empire? http://al-mahdi.atspace.com/roman.html
July 30th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
Amac,
Sorry I didn’t include you in the list. You are one of the originals to hold this paradigm. And for everyone that reads this, his web-site and writings are excellent.
July 31st, 2008 at 12:35 am
Joel,
no problemo, and thanks for the endorsement. I don’t have the ability to hang around here more, though.
Anyway, great job!
July 31st, 2008 at 11:26 am
I have read Walid Shoebat’s book “Why I left Jihad” and also Simon Altaf’s (although I have fallen out with him over this rediculous polygamy issue) “World War 3). I hope to read your new book soon. I noticed you mentioned some individuals and ministries like Chuck Missler, Perry Stone etc have taken on board this new view of the End time Beast being found in Islam rather that Rome. This is very true but I have notice many while they have changed their view on this they still wrap this up dispensationalism and pre-trib rapture theology. So they are moveing in the right direction but are not there yet. What clinched it for me was 2 things the explaniation of 666 and the description on Mecca as being on 7 mountains.
Thanks
Peter
July 31st, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Peter,
What convinced you about the 666 issue? I keep looking at that section, but I don’t get it. I don’t see the 666 where they say it is. At best, it looks somewhat similar. What convinced you? Thanks.
Fred
July 31st, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Scroll down for images: http://fp.thebeers.f9.co.uk/beast.htm
I just looked at the Bismillah/666 issue some more. I remain unconvinced and believe this to be nonsensical.
1. Why would God show John an Arabic word sideways? Why not show John the Arabic word as it is written?
2. Concerning Revelation 13:18, the text says that Chi, Xi, Sigma is a NUMBER. The text states it is a number. The Greek word that is translated “number” is “arithmos,” where we get our English word arithmetic.
(YLT) Here is the wisdom! He who is having the understanding, let him count the number of the beast, for the number of a man it is, and its number is six hundred and sixty six.
(NASB) Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.
3. The line above is a line signifying that this is a contraction. It is an occurrence of nomina sacra. In other words, 666 stands for something more than simply 666. The line above has a purpose, it is not part of an Arabic word.
4. BUT HERE IS THE CLINCHER, the Sigma opens to the RIGHT with the line on top. When you rotate the Arabic word (comical that you have to rotate it to see it), the symbol opens to the LEFT with the line on top. THEY ARE NOT EVEN THE SAME!
This is nonsense.
Fred
July 31st, 2008 at 3:36 pm
fred, thanks for your response, but this nonsense you talk about makes more sense to me anyway that all the other nonsense talked about down the years concerning 666. First it was barcodes, then it was computer chips, then it was the Euro (by the way if it was the case then every christian in Europe outside of the UK must be worshipping the beast). i have no problem withsome dismissing this interpretation but if you do so please offer up your own view with backup from the scripture and other sources. So if you do not agree with 666 being bismallah then I am waiting to hear your view and you can’t offer up some of the ones I have mention as no serious prophecy teacher gives these any weight anymore.
I look forward to your reply.
Peter
July 31st, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Peter,
1. I don’t try to find fulfillment for every prophecy in the Bible in current events, current culture, current kingdoms, and living people.
(NASB) Rev 13:12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men.
Rev 13:14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life.
Rev 13:15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,
Rev 13:17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.
2. Since Christ was raised from the dead, there is no historical documentation that anything like the above has occurred. Therefore, it is yet to be fulfilled in the future. Paul makes it very clear in 2 Thessalonians 2 that this Antichrist will appear in the end and deceive the whole world, then Jesus will destroy him when He appears in glory and in fire. This coming evil one will be Satan in the flesh and will have satanic power like never before seen.
3. I am looking for one that the whole world worships. I am looking for one that can call fire down from heaven in the presence of men. I am looking for an image of a beast that can speak, and people being killed that do not worship said image. People will be given a mark in/on their right hand or forehead to be able to function economically. His number is 666.
4. I do not have to fit any or all of the above into 2008. It may not even happen in my lifetime. My job is to know the prophecies and then to watch and wait. My job is to have nothing to do with the worship of man, no matter what kind of miracles he can perform. My job is to not worship any image of any kind. My job is to not allow anything to be put in my hand or forehead. My job is to be aware of the number 666.
5. It is very important to know that Hebrew and Greek do not have separate symbols to represent numbers. In both languages, a character represents a letter and a number. Although it seems odd to us, the original readers would not have been confused by using letters to represent a number. http://www.carm.org/bible/greek_hebrew_letters.htm
6. Because of point 5 and the warning in Revelation 13, gematria is legitimate. http://www.carm.org/kabbalah/gematria.htm Jesus in Greek equals 888. 8 is the number of new beginnings (eight people on Noah’s Ark; baby is circumcised on the 8th day; Jesus rose on the first day (8th) of the week)
Fred
August 1st, 2008 at 1:24 am
Fred & Peter
Find here another interpretation concerning the (666) number
http://www.geocities.com/mygoldcross/666.html
August 1st, 2008 at 11:39 am
Just for fun
Allah & Akbor in Hebrew means
cursed rodent
:)
Allah akbar! Allah Akbar…shalom in your home.
August 1st, 2008 at 11:48 am
Still Syria by the way 12 years running next year. Prophecy declares things coming to pass before they happen, not after they happen.
Joel,
I need to send you a picture so you can post it. Which address should I send it to? It is worth 1000 words. As always my friend, Allahu Akbar\Allah Akbor or cursed rodent…LOL, makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside every time I say it. To think of all the jihadist screaming “cursed rodent” to their god is hilarious.
August 1st, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Transilteration issues make this very difficult…666 that is. AC is an Arab and Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic are all semetic dialects and very similar although not exactly. 666 is the number of his name…
Someone sent me a chart where Assad’s name equals 666 in Arabic when spelled as the encyclopedia of the orient spells it but now I can’t find it. I think it was like the following although I can’t remember for certain. One time, a few months ago Joel had a tutorial that I created based on bad information that I did not properly confirm, it has sense been pulled. Since then, I recieved more information from a different source although I have not been able to confirm this yet…thought I would pass it along see if anyone can help decipher this. I can tell you that the letters in the first name mean
The houes of sin\judment head or Beit(house) + shin(judgment\sin) +reysh(head)
Bashar…is also the 3 root word for FLESH, again beit + shin\sin + reysh in hebrew.
Basharu l-Assad
The last numbering sent to me was in Arabic…I have not been able to confirm this.
B=2
a=1 (alif)
sh=300
a=1
r=200
u=6 (vav)
l=30
a=1
s=60
s=60
a=1
d=4
the pronunciation would be BASHOOROO LA ASSAD
666 in Arabic when spelled like the encyclopedia of the orient spells it. I can’t find any two websites that agree on how to spell it and he won’t give me his signature, LOL. Anyway, the name used to be Wahash or Beast…they changed it to al-assad\ al-asad probably to bolsterer the Alawite claim to the lineage of the prophet Muhammud and the fatimid line of Fatima bint Asad…anyone that can help filter through, please do.
August 1st, 2008 at 1:10 pm
since
August 1st, 2008 at 5:01 pm
The Antichrist is not satan in the flesh…this is not taught in scripture. The Antichrist will force worship of haSatan who is different entity with his very own vessel. You are missing out on the “grand delusion”…there is a hint there now do some research.
August 1st, 2008 at 5:20 pm
the Islamic paradigm is the only option…we have been teaching about Syrian Islamic AC and a beast empire for nearly 12 years. I hand delivered a package of infor to Hal Lindsay, Perry Stone, Grant Jeffrey, Chuck Missler 9 years ago and none of them would hear it…but times have change and most of them have come around. Once the pre-trib nonsense falls off all kind of blinders come off…
August 1st, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Also,
Perry Stone is recently using “Joseph” as an exaple of how to prepare naturally for tough times…like famine. He is not only coming around to the pre-trib falacy which must be tough for him but also to the Israel\church nonsense. Realizing the they are the same group of redeemed, the Israel of God.
Perry has been listening to Bill cloud who used to be his research man and is also a Hebrew teacher. Bill split with Perry over rapture, sabbath & feasts and rightfully so but YHWH is working on Perry’s heart and Perry is starting to backpeddle which is OK…as a matter of fact is honorable.
Bill Cloud authored a DVD called the “Joseph Factor” about preparing for tough times realizing that judgement begins in the house of YHWH, we aren’t exempt from judgment. I have witnessed alot of former pre-trib folks beginning to insert “disclaimers” like “well we may see some tough times” and such. Praise Yah and pray for Perry to break from the tired church mantra regardless of how painful it may be. No doubt, he has a large voice in the community of believers, especially those doing that sunday thing…
I will be speaking next weekend in Chicago during the main session Saturday evening. Bill we be speaking sometime that weekend as well. There are supposed to 500 in attendance, not bad for a first ever event in Chicagoland…
Shalom all…Scot
August 1st, 2008 at 6:00 pm
Today is Rosh Chodesh of Head of the Month\New Moon and there is an eclipse…that is always cool.
August 2nd, 2008 at 6:18 am
This is a matrix I did listing the various Biblical empires and land masses.
(Testing to see if IMG works)
August 2nd, 2008 at 6:20 am
Another try
August 2nd, 2008 at 6:20 am
oh well.. the picture is here:
http://home.comcast.net/~vincep312/Empires2.jpg
August 2nd, 2008 at 10:44 am
Vince,
Very nice…I worked on one years ago but yours is much better. I would like to publish it and use it in tutorials and such can you send me anything you have…I will give you credit for it of course.
Call me if you would…email is scot@profoundprophecy.com
http://www.theAntichrist.net - it forwards to our main domain name.
August 2nd, 2008 at 11:11 am
Vince P, that is very cool!
August 2nd, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Vince, I just noticed that you were in Chicago! We will be having a conference there next weekend. Many nationally recognized teachers will be there.
http://www.chicagorestorahation.com
August 2nd, 2008 at 4:04 pm
Anyone can do whatever they like with that graphic I made.
(I would suggest triple verifying that it is actually historically correct (especially the central asia/caucuses area)… but I believe it is)
Scot: Thanks for the link.. i’ll check it out.
August 2nd, 2008 at 4:06 pm
There is one thing that the graph made me think about , and that is, if we still have many decades to wait.. its’ entirely possible that Western European could fall under the future Caliphate. In that case, the entire spectrum is covered.
August 2nd, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Oh, and I drew special attention to the fact that only land areas that all Empires held were Israel and Syria.
August 2nd, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Vince,
By Syria, do you mean modern Syria or anceint Syria? Because I am looking to Turkey, I have to point out that the distance between modern Syria and Anatolia (North Western Turkey) is pretty vast. Great chart though. Really brings it all together.
August 3rd, 2008 at 9:49 am
Vince,
Would you email the original file to me at fredmeyer71@gmail.com
Thank you very much.
Fred
August 3rd, 2008 at 10:11 am
Scot Dryer, you mention in one of your previous posts about Perry Stone starting to back peddle a bit over some issues. Do yo mean that he is starting to rethink the issue of a Pre-trib rapture. I would be interested if you had some information. I like Perry Stone’s teaching and while I don’t agree with everything such as the pre-trib rapture his teachings are very informative.
Peter
August 3rd, 2008 at 11:51 am
He is finally listnening to Bill Cloud a Messianic friend of his who formerly did Perry’s research. Once you realize that “christianity” is not “THE CHURCH” it causes all sorts of scales to fall off. Bill has been telling Perry about the origins of Sunday, the necessity of observing the feasts and honoring the 4th commandment for years…and it is finally getting through and is coming out in his teachings, praise Yah!
Bill and I will be at a conference in Chicago this weekend teaching on different topics. Perry is no doubt a believer and a powerful voice in christian circles! Yah has his people in all kinds of places for the purpose of maximum impact…he really is a patient Father if only we could be more obedient sons and daughters…I know I struggle….don’t we all. I have talked to Perry a couple of times and I have no questions as to whether he loves the God of Israel!
August 3rd, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Joel: By Syria I meant the area around Damascus. I actually wasnt’ aware that Assyria is further east until the other day .
I do not have the original file to give to anyone. I made it in Excel originally, but that hard drive is out of reach… maybe i’ll remake it, it wasnt’ that hard to do.
August 4th, 2008 at 12:01 am
Nineveh was further east but Assyria covered the whole area. According to the annals of Sennacharib they considered themselves to be “subjects of En-lil” the Sumerian god of the air\Ba’al Zebub\Lord of the flyers\principality & power of the air\haSatan
August 4th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
Boy, wouldn’t that be auesome if someone like Perry Stone started preaching a post trib. rapture, what an uproar that would start in prophecy circles!!!
August 4th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
My eyes glaze over when i hear the word rapture
August 4th, 2008 at 10:54 pm
mine too…although Blondie did have a unique voice
August 4th, 2008 at 10:54 pm
auto smiley face is cool
August 4th, 2008 at 11:02 pm
First we have to admit wrong before Abba will take us into new light…I have been praying for that to happen Adam for 8 or 9 years and I believe we might be seeing the firstfruits of that now…more likely is that Yah will just raise up other men and pass the baton. We are seeing the face of the voice of prophecy being changed…and most of them are hairy. This goes back to the prophecy in Zechariah where in the last days “Ten men from the goy\nations\heathen will grab the coattail of one Jew\Israelite” saying “let us go with you, we have heard God is with you.” Again, those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ\Yahshua and obey his commandments, the ones that he obeyed…His Father’s.
August 5th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
Joel,
In about a week I’m gonna be ordering both the book and the dvds. So after I
study all these recources and better understand your veiw concerning the fourth beast I’ll get back on here and chat with ya some more on the subject.
Really looking foward to reading the book, bless ya…
August 19th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
Both the book “God’s War on Terror” and the DVD “Islam and the End Times” are great! I read the book and it caused me to rethink my position on end-times in a similar way that I had experienced about 16 years ago when I read the book “The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church” by Marv Rosenthal. As a result of reading that book I changed from being Pre-Trib to Pre-Wrath. In a similar fashion I have now changed my view of the Roman End Time Paradigm. Thank you for producing both the book and DVD.
August 25th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
i have some research, i think you all might want to see:
http://meccasevenmountains.blogspot.com/
August 28th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
[…] Joels Trumpet: By Joel Richardson […]
September 20th, 2008 at 9:32 am
[…] Joels Trumpet: Article by Joel Richardson […]
September 30th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
Where is America in the midst of this??It would be a foolish assertion that England is the Whore and the harlots thereof are America, Australia, New Zealand,ect,ect. It is apparent that the Whore is Roman Catholicism, and the Harlots thereof are the MANY denominations. Could it mean that America is not a major player in Rev.?Perhaps I am overlooking something.
October 1st, 2008 at 5:53 am
The Whore is Saudi Arabia, IMO.
December 28th, 2008 at 11:16 am
I haver always questioned why most models put all ten toes of the image on one foot. Could it be possible that the empire that rises has five toes in the west and five in the east? I do not question that Islam and the various Empires it has spawned meet Biblical test for end times but I caution that transfering all ten toes east is not better than having them all in the west. Everybody goes off in the Tribulation after the AntiChrist.
December 28th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
Richard,
The following comments from John Walvoord who quotes Geoffrey King I think speak to your question / comment:
‘’An important aspect of the fourth kingdom which is portrayed in the two legs is often overlooked by expositors, partly because of difficulty of fitting it into history precisely and partly because some do not feel that this aspect has a particular meaning. Because of the problem some have questioned whether the fourth empire is really Rome after all. The dilemma of the interpreter is illustrated in the comment of Geoffrey R. King, who claims the first three kingdoms or empires ‘’proved by history’’ but finds it difficult to trace this proof of the fourth empire. King writes,
‘’This is where I find I have to join issue with the commonly accepted interpretation. I have heard it said more than once or twice that the two legs of the image represent the Roman Empire, because in A.D., 364 the Roman Empire split into two. There was the Eastern Roman Empire, with its capital at Constantinople and the Western Roman Empire, with its capital at Rome. Two legs, you see. All right. But wait a minute! To begin with, the division occurs before you get to the iron! The two legs begin under the copper, unless this image was a freak. Nabuchednezzar knew nothing about our modern sculptury, futuristic and grotesque, where a man’s legs may begin and end anywhere! But this was a plain, straightforward, honest-to-goodness figure with his feet in the right place! So you see, you cannot do anything with these two legs. After all it is a man and a man cannot help having two legs anymore than he can help having two arms. Why don’t they make something of the two arms of silver? I don’t think there is any significance in the two legs at all. And, of course, if you want to make two parts of the Roman Empire to be represented by the two legs, you are in difficulty because the Western Roman Empire only lasted for a few hundred years, but the Eastern Roman Empire lasted until 1453. You have to make this image stand on one leg for most of the time!’’
King goes on to question the interpretation that the feet portion of the image is the revived Roman Empire of the future and concludes, ‘’But now, having come to study it carefully, I wash my hands of the whole of it.’’ King then identifies the foot stage of the image as being Muslim governments we know today and identifies the Antichrist as a Muslim.'’
(John Walvoord, Daniel: The Key to Prophetic Revelation, pp. 72-72 quoting from Geoffrey King’s, Daniel)
March 14th, 2009 at 9:43 am
Greetings to all readers,
The teaching that this third beast of Daniel refers to Alexander and his four generals and the fourth beast refers to the Roman Empire creates problems. Here are some.
1. The third beast was given dominion but the Persian and Islamic Empire had a much larger dominion.
2. It shifted Daniel’s vision away from the Middle East during the time of the fourth beast – the Holy Roman Empire while another empire ruled it. Let’s remember this beast is the last.
3. What about the Islamic Caliphates that ruled the Middle East and some parts of North Africa that began in the seventh century A.D. and ended just in the year 1924?
If we consider the Islamic Empire as the fourth beast, where do the Romans fit? Surely, there is a problem with these teaching. What is the cause of these errors? I think the error is on the third beast – its four horns. Does its horns really represent Alexander’s four generals?
How would the Bible represent it in image if that is the case? Many of us know the Vision of the Ram and Goat in Chapter 8 of Daniel. Here, we see how the bible pictures Alexander then his four generals after him. The first horn (Alexander) was broken and in its place came four horns (his generals). The Bible is clear whether two “Horns” or more are chronological or contemporaneous. This is not the case with “Heads.” There may be an instance, the only one I know, of overlapping as in Zechariah’s Vision of the Two Mountains of Bronze (Chapter 6), but generally, I think, they suggest succession as in Revelation 17:10. I am not saying that the bible limits itself with these interpretations with regards to “horns” and “heads”. I supposed, it can be said that this Third Beast was not the Greek Empire but just one of its heads only – the first head.
The Greek Empire was followed by the Romans so it’s the second head. But what about the remaining two heads? In Chapter 6 of Zechariah it speaks of Vision of the Two Mountains of Bronze and we know that “mountain” means kingdom or empire. Does this refer to the bronze part of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream of metallic statue – the third beast of Daniel that was given DOMINION? The bible left a mark on the second “mountain” – the south country so that we can identify it. Let’s check this out.
Student in Christ
bebe
March 15th, 2009 at 10:12 am
Greetings,
Correction on my previous comment:
On the second paragraph that says “I think the error is on the third beast – its four HORNS. Does its HORNS really represent Alexander’s four generals?” I mean it to be “HEADS not horns. Sorry for this error and my english.
bebe
May 12th, 2009 at 12:17 am
This is idiotic. First of all, your map of the Arabic empire isn’t accurate. It seems as if you’ve amalgamated the rule of every single Islamic empire into one super-group, but that makes about as much sense as drawing a giant blob over Europe and calling it the “Christian Empire”. The Arabic Empire didn’t spread as far east as you depict it, nor did it manage to reach what is modern-day Turkey and Greece. It also never reached as far south as you claim. The Islamic Empire only managed to reach a large size for about a hundred years under the Umayyad rule before fragmenting. Your depiction of it as some super-Empire is ridiculous.
Side note: there have been many great empires in this world, selectively choosing your empires to fictitiously call the Islamic empire the “fourth empire” makes you look like an idiot.