A Public Rebuke and Warning From The Walid Shoebat Foundation
This warning and documentation was passed along to me by Walid Shoebat regarding Siomn Altaf and Moshe Koniuchowski. I think that there are possibly a few who may at times be slightly confused or even concerned by my regular appeal to what I call “historical orthodoxy”. The following information perfectly demonstrates why I often feel the need to reference the early Church writings or Church traditions in order to settle debates about the proper interpretation of certain Biblical passages. Anyone can say that they know God, follow His Spirit and obey Scripture. Numerous cults appeal to their own interpretation of Scripture and claim to be led by God. But with so many conflicting sects and cults out there, not everyone can be right. So while I certainly value the voice of the Holy Spirit in me as He guides me in my study of Scripture, I also value the voice of the Holy Spirit in the Church down through history, and most specifically in the early leaders of the Church who ministered beside and learned from the mouth of the Apostles. Humility mandates that I live this way and not strictly according to my own independent opinions. In our efforts to live and believe as the early Church did, we must walk in a balance between our own personal relationship with Christ and as part of a community of New Covenant believers that extends back to the Apostles and to Christ Himself. Blessings, Joel
Subject: Dangerous Cult - Beware. From Walid Shoebat
You need to beware of this false Rabbi Moshe Koniuchowsky alongside Simon Altaf who turned polygamist and cultist of the first order. And let the Messianic movement circulate this and beware of this cult. What is included here are links and testimonies of his activities, they include slavery, polygamy, cult behaviour to supposedly propagate the seed of Israel through sex and plural marriages. It is probably one of the most disgusting and dangerous cults I have ever ran into during my life in ministry, especially amongst the Messianic Movement. This cult which attaches itself to the Nazarene movement is hardly Nazarene. I have accumulated a litany of confessions from Simon Altaf himself, his wife, and Moshe Koniuchowsky himself. When confronted with the facts of this cultic behavior Simon Altaf went to Moshe Koniuchowsky and Moshe told him to cut off communication with me since we the Christians are now evil and only they are the true Nazarene believers. See for yourself:
Here is a letter that Koniuchowsky issued to his congregation in which he announces that he will add a wife alongside Simon Altaf in order to propagate the new seed of Israel. Also below is a letter from a student of his in which instead of teaching him to be Rabbi in the school chose to make him his personal slave. He worked his slave so hard that the poor man broke his back only be dumped by the so called phony Rabbi.
LETTER TO CONGREGANTS
FROM RABBI Moshe Koniuchowsky
Shalom YATI Nation,
In recent days because of our biblical stand, ONLY on and for YHWH’s Word which never changes, Rivkah and I have lost friends and supporters who have decided to follow their emotions or feelings. Like a friend in the ministry told me “prepare to be described in such vile terms, with lies and FALSE WITNESS, that people who really do know you, won’t recognize who they are talking about. Thankfully Rebbetzin Rivkah is a real woman willing to follow me and YHWH into all of His will and she is a giant of a woman, whose love and trust for me is amazing. Rather than destroy our marriage, the possibility of another Israelite wife has reenergized our marriage and love and admiration for one another as fellow pioneers in Israel’s restoration! I have rarely seen a woman so selfless, who puts YHWH first all the time, regardless of her own thoughts. She is more of a jewel than I ever knew!
I have been threatened by a former Palestinian terrorist and have been blamed for bad marriages. Among the names we have been called are slobs, ugly, dirty, perverts, sickos and failures; this despite 24 years of loving and faithful service to YHWH and His people.
But guess what? Someone has to bear the marks of Yahshua in their body and allow me to join you (other truth standers) in doing so gladly; for now I know the true meaning of ‘I count all things including my hard earned reputation and impeccable character as DUNG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! for the Excellency of knowing ALL about Mar Yah-Yahshua, my blessed Redeemer, who NEVER CHANGES at least in Margate Florida.
Although it appears that He has changed in other parts of the world, if you listen to the stupidity of my accusers. Anyway, now that I’ve gotten that off my chest, please redouble your prayers and gifts to us so we can continue to keep our head above the rising water.
———————————
End of Moshe K’s e-mail to YATI.
LETTER FROM SIMON
ANNOUNCING HIS POLYGAMOUS MARRIAGE
Walid,
YOu are my friend and like a brother that is why I gave you some information. I dont’ need permission from man I have it from YHWH.
The woman’s name is Salmah, not married, single, 25, ex-Muslim, she had explicit dreams of seeing me in her bedroom holding her hands, then she saw me in her room as I am inside her body.. There were other dreams but don’t challenge me because I walk closely to YHWH and He has shown His will. I know you are Mr Skeptic but I am Mr Yes Sir to YHWH.
Not married yet but will be shortly in September. Clearly I am not registering this marriage but it will be a marriage performed by a Rabbi in the eyes of YHWH. Yes she is a believer just like me and had come to faith 2 yrs ago.
YHWH explicity told me how is not important. Now I then prayed to YHWH to send visions and dreams to the person’s family because I am not going to tell people I want to marry you.
He sent explicit dreams to the girls’s aunt, mum and the girl herself. Three separate witnesses. I still love Aaliyah and will always do, she is my wife and that will not change. This is my number two and I will keep trying to bring Aaliyah back even it takes me my whole life. I have already told Aaliyah there is no such thing as divorce, we are married forever not for a season. I know she is unhappy Walid but she is fighting agaist the will of the Father.
He loves her and wants her to reproduce but how can that happen if she won’t even talk to me.
Shalom Shalom (peace peace)
Blessings in Yahushua
L’Chaim B’Yahushua (Life in Yah/YHWH He is salvation)
Rav Simon
http://www.abrahamic-faith.com (Truth unleashed)
LETTER FROM RABBI Koniuchowsky’s PRIVATE SLAVE
From: Edgar Lugo
To: UONYC Teaching Letter
Cc: ebenyahu@hotmail.com; yoel@arm-tek.net
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:23:30 PM
Subject: A LETTER OF ONE CRYING OUT IN THE WILDERNESS
SHALOM TRUE BROTHERS IN ABBA YAHUWEH & YAHUSHUA HAMOSHIACH, I PRAISE AND THANK YAHUWEH FOR YOUR FREE SERVICE TO THE BRETHERN. RECENTLY I HAVE BEEN A VICTIM OF RABBI MOSHE YOSEPH KONIOCHOWSKY, WHAT YOU DESCRIBE AS A SUPERSTAR MENTALITY THAT DOMINATES PEOPLE AND SERVES MAMMON OVER YAHUWEH DESCRIBES SUCH A MAN AS RABBI MOSHE!!!!!!! I WAS ONE OF HIS RABBIS IN TRAINNING AT THE SHUL IN NORTH MIAMI BEACH, I HAVE BEEN THERE FOR 5 MONTHS AND WORKED AS HIS OWN PERSONAL SLAVE FOR HIM BEING AT HIS BECK AND CALL DOING EVERYTHING THAT HE TELLS ME WHAT TO DO, I HAVE EVEN PUT HIM BEFORE MY OWN FAMILY TO MY OWN HURT AND DESTRUCTION, THIS MAN CONTROLS AND MANIPULATES EVERYONE AND FLEECES THE SHEEP AND KEEPS ASKING FOR MORE AND MORE AND MORE MONEY!!!!!! WHILE IN SERVICE TO HIM HE TREATED ME AS IF I WAS HIS INDENTURED SERVANT AND AS IF YAHUWEH HAD MADE HIM MASTER OVER ME AS IF I WAS SOLD INTO SLAVERY. AND I DID SERVE AS A FAITHFULL SERVANT WHOLEHEARTEDLY AS UNTO YAHUWEH. 2 WEEKS AGO I HAD INJURED MY BACK AND SLIPPED A LOWER DISK IN MY LOWER LEFT SIDE OF MY BACK, AND AFTER NOT BEING ABLE TO GO TO SHUL FOR 2 SHABBATS AND NOT BEING ABLE TO WORK FOR HIM FOR 1 WEEK, THIS MAN RABBI MOSHE JOSEPH K HAS DISCARDED ME AND TREATED ME AS IF I WAS NOTHING TO HIM!!!! HE DID NOT EVEN COME AND VISIT ME AND PRAY FOR ME AND ANNOINT MY HEAD WITH OIL AND MAKE SURE I AM OK OR ASK TO HELP ME ONE OF THE SHEEP WHO WAS STUDYING TO BE A SHEPHERD UNDER HIM. HE HAS HUMILATED ME AND MURDERED AND ASSINATED MY REPUTATION AND CHARACTER IN PUBLIC BEFORE THE ENTIRE CONGREGATION AND MADE CHEAPSHOTS AT ME IN THE SHUL LIVE ON THE YATI ONE INTERNET RADIO, AND HAS TOLD A FEW PEOPLE OVER THE PHONE SOME LIES ABOUT ME TO JUST DISCREDIT ME AND COVER UP HIS OWN SINS AND PROTECT HIS OWN REPUTATION. THIS MAN IS A MERCHANDISER AND PROSTITUTES THE WORD OF YAHUWEH AND EVERYTHING HAS A PRICE TAG ON IT, AND HE CARES MORE ABOUT PEOPLES MONEY RATHER THAN THE PEOPLE AND HE SHOWS PARTIALITY FOR THOSE WHO TITHE AND BUY MORE OF HIS TRAFFIC AND MERCHANT OF THE WORD OF YAHUWEH. THERE IS A WHOLE LIST OF ABOUT 25 PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN MISTREATED RECENTLY AND ABBUSED AND LIED ABOUT AND HAVE BEEN VICTIMIZED BY THIS MAN AND HE USES THE BEMA IN THE SHUL TO LAUNCH PERSONAL ATTACKS ON PEOPLE TO DISCREDITED THEM AND MAKES JOKES ABOUT THEM AND MOCKS THEM AND MANIPULATES SCRIPTURE IN SUCH A WAY TO HAVE PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT HE IS RIGHT AND THAT THE OTHER PEOPLE ARE WRONG AND ALL IS DONE LIVE ON THE INTERNET RADIO AND IN HIS SERMONS AS WELL AS IN THE MOED HALL WHERE PEOPLE SIT DOWN TO EAT, HE HAS TRASHED A PREVIOUS ELDER THAT WAS THERE FOR OVER 10 YEARS AND HE HAS CURSED HE AND CONDEMED HER TO DEATH AND HOPES AND PRAY FOR HER CANCER TO QUICKLY COME AND TAKE HER LIFE, HE HAS SENT HORRIFYING EMAILS OF THREATS AND WORD CURSING TO HER AS WELL AS OTHER PEOPLE, WHERE IS THE LOVE OF YAHUSHUA IN HIS ACTIONS??? BECAUSE THEY AS WELL AS I HAVE STOOD UP FOR THE TRUTH AND ALL THOSE THAT DONT WANT TO PLAY RELIGION AND WHO DONT WANT TO COVER UP HIS SINS AND BACK HIM UP ARE DISCARDED TO THE STREETS AND MOCKED AT. THIS IS ONE OF THE FALSE SHEPHERDS THAT YERMEYAHU CHAPTER 23 SPEAKS OF WHO FEED HIS PEOPLEAND WHO SCATTER HIS SHEEP AND DOES NOT VISIT THEM, THIS MAN HAS TO BE STOPPED AND THE ONLY WAY HE CAN BE STOPPED IS BY TAKING THE MINISTRY TO THE STREETS AND TO DO THE TRUE WILL OF ABBA YAHUWEH WHICH IS TO AID THE WIDOW AND FEED THE POOR AND DO WHATS RIGHT IN HIS SIGHT AND TO UPHOLD THE CAUSE OF THE WIDOW AND VISIT THE POOR AND FATHERLESS AND TAKE CARE OF THEM AND PLEAD THE CASE FOR THE OPPRESSED AND NEEDY AND START THIS SOCIAL AND SPIRITUAL REVELUTION FOR ALOT OF THESE PASTORS, REVERENS, MINISTERS, TEACHERS, PRIEST AND RABBIS ARE NOT TAKING CARE OF AND FEEDING YAHUSHUAS SHEEP AS HE ASKED KEPHA TO DO 3 TIMES!!!!!!! I AM FED UP, AND I AM GOING TO CRY OUT LOUD AND PREPARE A HIGHWAY FOR YAHUWEH OUR ELOHIM… ALL I WANTED TO DO WAS GET MY RABBINICAL ORDINATION TO ONLY PROVE TO PPEOPLE THAT WHICH I ALREADY KNOW THAT IAM WHICH IS A TEACHER AND A SERVANT OF YAHUWEH WHO WOULD TRULY SERVE THE PEOPLE AND NOT LOOK TO BE SERVED. AND IN EVERYTHING THAT I WILL DO WILL BE FOR CHARITY UNTO YAHUWEH. I HAD MOVED FROM LAS VEGAS NEVADA TO TAMARAC FLORIDA TO JOIN THE HOMELESS MINISTRY AND STREET MINISTRY AND TO MY SURPRISE HE COLLECTS MONEY FROM PEOPLE ONLINE AND KEEPS THE MONEY AND DOES NOT GIVE THE MONEY TO GO FEED THE POOR. THIS MAN IS A THIEF AND HAS ROBBED YAHUWEHS TITHING AND HAS TAKEN AWAY RIGHTEOUS FOOD FROM ABBA YAHUWEHS TABLE. I HAVE SEEN MYSELF AS WELL AS OTHERS WHAT THIS MAN HAS DONE, AND HE NEEDS TO BE STOPPED AND EXPOSED OF IN THE LIGHT OF TRUTH. I WOULD LIKE TO TAKE YOUR RABBINICAL CORSE FOR ORDINATION AND GET MY CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION SO THAT I CAN START YAHUWEHS TRUE MINISTRY, OF WHICH I WILL DO SOON AS SOON AS I CAN GET MY BACK HEALED. WOULD YOU PLEASE HELP OUT A BROTHER TO COUNTER ACT THIS FALSE PROPHET OF MERCHANDISE WHO TEACHES LIES FOR THE SAKE OF CONTROVERSY AND PUTS ON A SHOW AND ALWAYS COMPLAINS FOR THE MOST PART THAT THE TITHING WAS LOW. THIS MAN HAS ADMITTED TO ME THAT HE WANTS TO BUY A VACATION HOUSE BUT DOES NOT WORK AND I HAVE WITNESSED MISUSE OF YAHUWEHS MONEY TO DECORATE HIS HOUSE AND LANDSCAPING, BECAUSE I WAS USE TO DO PART OF THE LANDSCAPING AND THAT IS HOW I HURT MY BACK WORKING LONG HOURS WITHOUT TAKING A BREAK…. PLEASE HELP ME TO STOP THIS SUPERSTAR THAT DOMINATES CONFERENCES AND LEADERSHIP, THE TIME HAS COME TO COUNTER ACT THESE FALSE PROPHETS WHO USE THE SACRED NAME OF YAHUWEH TO GAIN WEALTH UNLAWFULLY……. YOUR BROTHER IN YAHUSHUA HAMOSHIACH, SERVANT ELBENYAHU AKA EDGAR LUGO SON OF YAHUWEH
LETTER OF COMPLAINT FROM SIMON’S WIFE
HER HUSBAND JOINED A CULT
Hi Walid,
I’m afraid Simon has lost the plot, is involved in a cult and right now is under a demonic attack and possessed.
He’s been acting very strangely ever since he got involved with these lunatics from Florida. He corrected the teaching of a self professing Rabbi who has written the vilest book imaginable and has rubbed HaShem’s holy name in dirt. It’s called “sex and the believer” and it’s disgusting.. You can get it from the YATI website, it’s disgusting and totally carnal. Aside from being proponents of polygamy they are obsessed with having as many women and children as possible and creating “seed for HaShem”. The book mentions lewd things like if you have too many wives, you can have a male concubine, make your wife satisfied so that she does not feel “neglected”. The book uses words like “now ladies go find yourself a male, but don’t forget to tell your hubby”…along those lines. They have been obsessed with it for months and seem to be more concerned about how many wives they will have in the millenium rather than being in the presence of Yahushua our Messiah.
Go on this website:
http://nazarene-yisraelite-marriages.com/
This is a Simon Altaf creation, although he has not put his name on it which the Ruach HaKodesh led a brother in the faith to. The fomat, jargon is clearly Simon Altaf style, YATI the cult (all of whom have defiled HaShem’s name with that vile book) is mentioned and the address at the bottom is Nazarene63@googlemail.com. Shimoun63@yahoo.com may ring a bell.
They are cold and heartless people who are very manipulative.
They used phrases at this conference in North Carolina from 9th July - 12 July like:
“husbands lay your hands on your wife, tell her you love her and reassure her UNTIL SHE COMES TO AN UNDERSTANDING”.
“Rabbi’s must do to pave the way” etc etc.
At first they were saying plural marriages are optional just like monogamy is optional but that have now taken it to be a commandment to create “seed for Israel”.
The sanctimonious leaders wife said to me that I should trust my husband and then coldly said to me when I was crying on the phone in the early hours of Monday morning after flying back from North Carolina on Sunday (when simon told me on the way back from the airport that HaShem has told him to take another wife and make seed for Israel and that he needs to have 10 children in 5 years). This cold heartless woman said that is the organisations doctrine that I should submit to and that I had two choices either to accept it or leave. I trust in HaShem! not Simon Altaf or the demon he’s possessed with.
He’s lost the plot and his behaviour is inconsistent. First he said HaShem told him he’s from Ephraim (that’s fine as spiritually Ephraim represents the nations), 6 months ago he told me and a bunch of other people that HaShem told him he’s from the tribe of Judah and now HaShem is telling him he’s from the tribe of Levi!
He keeps saying he loves me, even now, but when I was pleading with him for 11 hours in the late hours of Sunday and early hours of Monday his eyes looked empty and emotionless…there was no expression. While I was crying and packing my suitcase he was sleeping soundly. 6 weeks ago when I came to know about this, not about the contents of book or the website above, He took me to Nando and told me that he is re-newing his vows with me and he vows in HaShem’s holy name that he will never marry another woman.
The YATI Cult leader asked his wife that if she became sick would she allow him another wife to which she replied yes. Horrible people as they are why the hell would you think about who you can get off with when your wife is ill. Wouldn’t you be there for her, support her, comfort her, love her in her hour of need? Pure selfishness. I then asked Simon when he made this vow 6 weeks ago what if I become ill? He said he would still not look at another woman and that he loves me etc etc.
This YATI cult have hailed him as THE end times prophet and put him on a pedestal. Everyone in and out of this cult has always praised him saying how much knowledge and understanding he has of scripture and what a charismatic person he is and that has gone to his head. He thinks he’s one of the chosen few who hear directly from HaShem etc.
While a close friend of ours was trying to reason with him on Monday evening his personality showed all the colours of the rainbow.
He said to Tehseen (a brother whose house I’m staying in with his wife Shakaina) that he can “shove his YesuMasih ministry up his backside”. Is that any way to talk? We know the Messiah’s name was not Jesus or Yesu or Yeshu but wouldn’t you think twice before using these profane words. People do come to faith in Jesus name…I did, so did Simon and probably even you.
He greeted Tehseen like a brother giving him a huge and when Tehseen pointed out about him saying he’s from Ephraim, Jadah, Levi directly from HaShem he became very agitated saying Tehseen was mocking him (I can assure you he was not!), then he smiled and 5 minutes later he said he’s going to break Tehseen’s teeth. 20 minutes later he said “I’m glad she’s going with you, at least I’ll know she’s safe” ??????????????????????????
The whole bunch of them dress like lunatics and any one with half a brain can see they are a cult. They may call on the true names but they are a cult. They wear a cap with YHWH written on it in hebrew and paleo hebrew and wear these tunic things thinking they are priests. Nutcases!
I have not responded to any text messages, phone calls and not even bothered opening any e-mails from him since Monday with his constant I love you’s and I miss you’s. The demon in him thinks he can manipulate me as does that cult because I am a woman and must therefore be emotional and easy to manipulate. I don’t think so nothing in this world will allow me to stand with people who have bought HaShem’s holy name to nought! They have done an evil evil thing and I am praying that HaShem forgives him. He has opened the door to unclean spirits and allows Moshe Konichouski (Not sure how you spell it) and his cult to massage his ego and it’s gone to his head.
Look at the statement of faith on that website and read beyond the following statement:
****if you do not hold to plural marriage as allowed in YHWH’s Word, go no further please. If you have seen these alternatives as kosher please feel free to continue.
This is satanic…they are holding plural marriage and all the other rubbish in the book as a pre-requisite to faith i.e. don’t bother going on to the next level (most of which is true) unless you accept the first part! Pure evil and that’s satan at his best.
Shalom in the true faith in Yahushua,
Aaliyah (I changeed my name by deed a couple of years ago)
FOR FURTHER VERIFICATION ON THIS CONTACT:
THE WALID SHOEBAT FOUNDATION WALID@SHOEBAT.COM
July 24th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Simon Altaf of Abrahamic-faith?? Goodness. I once email this man and listen to some of his sermon. This is a sad news. His site is very helpful leading me to understand the islamic paradigm of the end times before i came across this site. This is very unfortunate indeed!
July 24th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
This news is very disturbing and horribly vile. Reading this stuff was like viewing inside a madman’s head. I feel like taking a shower–and I will, once I finish my comment.
We have to pray for Aaliyah (Simon Altef’s wife), as well as Simon.
This frightens me. Witness at the amount of deception Satan is stirring up in the world. Now it’s even in the Messianic movement. You praise God that Jews are coming to Christ and you find Satan diverting some of them toward Hell.
Doctrine is SO important!! Everyone is leaving it to be manipulated by feelings, dreams, random thoughts and inclinations.
God bless you, Joel. Continue to call out false doctrine. These last-day deceptions are only going to get uglier and more frequent.
Something has been weighing on my heart and mind for about a month now, but I’ve remained quiet. With this news, I’ve got to voice my concern for a very influential commentor of this site.
Scot, I’ve got to say this to you now. You told Joel in a comment about a month ago that you don’t need the Bible to live as God wants you to live. You told him that the Spirit will guide your life perfectly.
That comment shocked me and has had me wondering how far out from orthodoxy you are in your beliefs. It also concerned me to what you are teaching others. You’re in an influential postion, friend. If you error and teach others that error, you are drawing many people AWAY from Christ. That is a very dangerous position for you to be in.
My next door neighbor believes, like you, that she doesn’t need the Bible. She has told me that once you come to Christ, the Bible is only like an extra “witness.”
She often claims to have arguments with demons in her house and uses her brother (an “apostle”) to clear her house of devils every now and then.
How did Christ battle Satan in the wilderness? By continually going back to the Word of God. It’s our love letter from God, our roadmap, our textbook for life.
July 24th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Oh my gosh. I knew Aaliya (or Zebi as she was first known). I need to contact her. I was just thinking about meeting up with them. Had no idea.
July 24th, 2008 at 5:32 pm
Joel,
I read one of Simon Altafs books about the islamic beast, it was good however I did feel it was a little overboard with the messianic judaism stuff.
Not that there isn’t any truth to messianic judaism and Gods not using anybody in that movement but…
Error breeds error.
Ok, I stayed out of this arguement as long as I could… Scot D. if you read this I love ya brother, but your missing it man.
Check it out, the bible from genisis to revelation is a revelation of one man and thats Jesus Christ(Yeshua Messiah) And I’m not a disciple of Moses I’m a disciple of Jesus. Moses life and ministry along with the life and ministry of Abraham, David, Job and all the rest created an awareness for the need of a savior. Moses is the Question Jesus is the answer. So if our study of old testment issues doesn’t lead us to Jesus as the answer it means we never understood the question…
I am in no way defending the errors of the RCC, but as we can see there is also error clear on the other end also. For every one mile of road there is always two miles of ditch ON BOTH SIDES… We need to stay out of the ditches folks.
And hey, leave the early church fathers alone ya’ll they were there you weren’t.
Good article Joel, your a true watchman…
Adam.
July 24th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
I am not suprised at this revelation. When a group starts retranslating the bible for their own doctrine then you know you are looking at a cult. I have been calling this group a cult for years. A poster and I already were at logger heads over this group.
It is just so sad the damaged lives cults cause. We should all pray for these people.
Donna
July 24th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
Unfortunatly as many as are against what is happening, it is still something that needs to be addressed.
Why did Abrham have more then 1 wife, Moses, Jacob, King David and many many more.
For those claiming to be “Jewish” “Messianic” or even “Christian”, I am still wanting to know what valid answer you have for me:
The question again is “Why do many Prophets and Kings (All rigteous by the way) have more than 1 wife?
I look forward to hearing from you soon with scripture of course.
Shalom
Rabbi Samuel Thompson
July 24th, 2008 at 11:34 pm
I to know ( as in talked online with many many times ,debate ect ect, and I m’s ) he seemed very nice and friendly and I know now more then I knew then Praise God but this is still a bit of a shock . and I know this really must get to Walid , he was a dear friend of shimon , simon .
GOD open his eyes and heart and his families turn him and all of us from the devils little whispers of deception . Hey Joel ive been looking into the early church fathers stuff pretty interesting .
Peace and Blessing , Rasul Jacob
July 25th, 2008 at 1:25 am
Rabbi,
Is polygamy the preferred lifestyle that God approves of?
July 25th, 2008 at 1:54 am
Mat 19:4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’
Mat 19:5 “and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
Mat 19:6 “So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
Jesus was clear that marriage entailed 2 (no more and no less) becoming 1. After these verses Jesus was questioned about a situation in the Old Testament where divorce was permitted. Jesus agrees that this had been permitted because of the hardness of the peoples hearts but “from the beginning it was not so”. The same could be applied to the multiple wives which appear to have been allowed (although not explicitly allowed).
All that aside I wonder what all the fascination is with using Hebrew names. I understand that looking up the meaning of a name can be useful in understanding the Bible but as for the name itself it seems strange to refuse the English translations when it comes to names only. Of course, I think it would be strange to switch to Hebrew totally as well.
Is it the phonetics of the name of Jesus to which every knee will bow?? Or is it not the person behind the name?? Do demons refuse to leave when we speak in English - including using the English name of “Jesus”?? It all seems a bit odd to me and seems to create exclusivism - the spiritual use the “real” names and the unenlightened don’t.
That said, if the doctrine is good and people just like to use Hebrew names then that’s not an issue with me.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:53 am
“”"”Anyone can say that they know God, follow His Spirit and obey Scripture. Numerous cults appeal to their own interpretation of Scripture and claim to be led by God. But with so many conflicting sects and cults out there, not everyone can be right. So while I certainly value the voice of the Holy Spirit in me as He guides me in my study of Scripture…….”"”" writes Joel Richardson.
Romans 10:6-7 ~ But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (That is, to bring Christ down) or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (That is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
While the “warning” in this thread is about a certain Nazarene rabbi and fellowship, how many different denominational fellowships are there within Christianity, with Lord knows how many different interpretations of Scripture? Not all can be right.
2 Corinthians 11:3 & 14 ~ But I am afraid that just as the serpent deceived Eve by his treachery, your minds may be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
Sabbath observance/or Sunday church services/.
Triune Deity/or God the Father and His Breath and God the Son and His Breath?
Some fellowships even believe they have an immortal soul.
Scripture records many times to beware of false teachers in the end times such as Jesus saying Matthew 21:8 ~ He said, “Watch out that you are not misled. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them!
Doesn’t the warning angel of Revelation 18 say verses 4 & 5 ~ Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, so you will not take part in her sins and so you will not receive her plagues, because her sins have piled up all the way to heaven and God has remembered her crimes.
Satan is the prince of the power of the air, Eph. 2:2, and logically thinking isn’t participating in an election participating in Satan’s government and doesn’t the warning angel of Revelation 18 say to come out of her (Babylon/government and religion)? My faith says yes, my absentee ballot will be shredded I have faith in the Lord to provide for my needs, certainly not McCain or Obama or some 3rd party independent.
My faith says yes in that Scripture says we are to be imitators of Paul as Paul imitated God.
My faith says yes, John 5:46-47 ~ If you believed Moses, you would believe me, because he wrote about me. But if you do not believe what Moses wrote, how will you believe my words?” Its the Sabbath, not Sunday. Its the Passover not Easter. It’s Theon and Theos and their respective breaths not a triune deity.
Each fellowship of Scriptural reading will think that they are right and the other is wrong. Each will say the other’s understanding “grieve their respective spirit.”
The Teacher in Ecclesiastes said, “Futile! Futile! Absolutely futile! Everything is futile!
At His crucifixion Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing.”
And the whole point of this post is an attempt to get folks to think spiritually rather than physically. The carnal [physical] mind is but enmity to God, Heres a cult, theres a cult, but the reading community we each belong to isn’t a cult. Collectively we must grieve the Holy Spirit [Pneuma A’gion) of the Lord God. May we repent, all of us.
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, Theon and Theos and their respective Breaths.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:32 am
We need to be extra careful today regarding any “new teaching”. I totally agree with Joel’s constant reminder that the bible is the word of God, and we can use the early church fathers as a reference into what the scriptures mean. The bible has never been of “private interpretation”.
Our use of present day commentaries is reminisent of the Jewish oral traditions. They are far removed from the actual foundation.
While we do not use the early church father’s writings as scripture. Some of them had a first hand knowledge of the apostles themselves. As such they are a better witness into what the NT actually means, rather then the “new wine” that some want us to swollow.
This polygamy problem is not unlike the mormons, and Islam. I have no problem accepting a polygamous family from Islam as family, if they turn around and follow Jesus. For we are to welcome all. However, welcoming people who are already in this type arrangment and teaching people that we are called to practice polygamy are two different things.
In Timothy Chapter 1 Paul explicitly states that those who are elders and leaders of the community were to be the husbands of 1 wife.
What we have here are leaders of a “new way” to understand scripture practicing and teaching the practice of something contrary to Paul’s teaching.
We are called to defend the faith once delivered to the saints.
July 25th, 2008 at 6:43 am
“Rabbi” Thompson,
I would be happy to discuss this issue with you here publicly. But before I respond to you, let me begin by asking you a few questions. Do you personally practice polygamy? And more importantly, so that we may begin this discussion on common ground, what is your basis of authority; you ask for references from the “Scriptures”, but which books are you referring to and why is it that you accept these particular books and not others? Looking forward to your response.
Joel Richardson
July 25th, 2008 at 8:31 am
Jeff: the reason for some people’s focus on Jesus’ Hebrew name is because the Hebrew name is more than just a name.. it’s more than just “Bob Smith”.. most of the names of Biblical connected people describe the role or function that person does.
Jesus’ Hebrew name “Yeshua” literally means “To Save” in Hebrew. Yeshua is a revision of an even older Hebrew name “Yehoshua” which means “God Saves”
So you see there’s somethign missing in the English “Jesus” that is quite apparent in the Hebrew “Yeshua” and that is why some people choose to use the Hebrew name.
July 25th, 2008 at 9:37 am
The name “Jesus” is an English translation of the Greek Ίησους (Iēsous), itself a Hellenization of the Hebrew יהושע (Yehoshua) or Hebrew-Aramaic ישוע (Yeshua)
The NT was written in Greek. The Apostels themseleves wrote His name as Ίησους (Iēsous), which is Jesus in English. It has the exact same meaning as it does in Hebrew. To save and God saves. Jesus knows His name in any language. The power in His name is the same in any language.
The Hebrew roots organizations began this idea of using the Hebrew names to help bring people back to their Hebrew roots.
It all sounds good and innocent in the beginning but the deeper people get into the beliefs that the Hebrew roots orgs teach, they become more torn from the rest of the church. They begin to put themselves under the law more and more, one step at a time. Instead of causing the church, as a whole, to grow in understanding…it caused a rift between believers.
When Simon first began his Webpage I used to read it. He linked my page to his and visa versa. But then he began to push “Hebrew roots” and I began to back away. It was very sad to watch. I soon removed my link to his page and wish he would remove my link on his link-page but he hasn’t. I did this because he had entered onto the slippery road, that I had seen so many go down before him. There is never a good end to this road. It draws one deeper and deeper into a very dark and dangerous place. It is so gradual that the person doesn’t even see what is happening to them. The truth finally becomes so destroted for them, that we have had to cut these people loose, so to speak, and ask them to leave. Which is very sad because they were friends also.
Satan works in very suttle ways, but the goal is always the same. He wishes to destroy God’s church. Divide and conquer. Nothing new under the sun. Paul battled the same thing in his day.
In Him
Norma
July 25th, 2008 at 11:53 am
Great post, 1norma.
Is this Jewish-roots movement exploding right now or has it just-by-chance found Joel’s site? The last few months have been dominated by this talk.
Concerning polygamy, isn’t Israel supposed to be separated from the rest of the world? And for believers in Christ, aren’t we supposed to be be separated also? Of course.
Polygamy was the way of the world in times past, before Israel and Christ Jesus. It’s also growing in modern times, with Mormanism expanding at an alarming rate and the Islamic Beast rising throughout the world. Even outside of these two cults, the world has divorced itself with Chrisitanity to the degree where even secular society sees no basis to prevent polygamous marriages.
Why join the world? How often is the world correct on issues like this? This talk about multiple wives is crazy and is Satan’s way of distracting people from living Godly lives and doing your Godly duty.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
I am utterly shocked about this! I just finish reading Simon Altaf’s book : WWIII, unmasking the end time beast. I found the book helped me to further understand Islam and it’s satanic teachings.
This is very unfortuate news. This shows that Satan will attack everyone, especially those that expose the great lie that is Islam! Simon along with his wife will be in my prayers.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
I want to clarify that studying and understanding our Jewish roots is a wonderful thing. I personally love Messianic Judaism when it is practiced in a balanced way. No question that this is sweeping through the Church and that is a wonderful thing. But there are certainly some fringe movements that have fallen into deep deep error.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
I don’t want anyone to think that I’m against getting back to our Jewish roots. What I was referring to was those who have an obsession with law, and now this polygamy issue.
Because I love Christ, I’m interested in my Jewish roots. I’ve bought three books that Joel has listed as recommended reading having to do with our Jewish roots, and am enjoying them immensely.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
so how are we defining polygamous marriage…as multiple wives…what about multiple husbands…what happens genetically to offspring who intermarry related offspring…
what about welfare taxes to support all those offspring…
BTW, this “rabbi”’s comments about God sanctioning his desire to have more wives is exactly like Muhammod’s claim that Allah sanctioned all his desires in this area as well.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
Joel,
As a Catholic, I really appreciate that you do not allow Catholic bashing, or any other bashing, on your site. It also makes me glad to hear that you value the voice of the Holy Spirit throughout Christianity’s history and that you don’t just throw out all Tradition with two little words, “Sola Scriptura.”
July 25th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
I will also clarify. I began learning about the Jewish feasts, the temple, and Judahism in general 10 years ago. I believe all Christians should study up on these things because our understanding of our own Christian roots is enhanced by understanding those things. But when I see people over using the lingo. It is a red flag for me. The next thing you know they are concerned that anyone not Messianic is “least in the kingdom” and they themselves are the chosen. I noticed the last few things that Simon sent that I actually read were full of this kind of talk. Like you said, Joel, it requires keeping a good balance. A strong foundation before studying these things is very important also.
In Him
Norma
July 25th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
there will always be a fringe group amongst us. I’m not threatened by jewish roots teachings, jewish feast or the 2 house theology. Those feast for instance are indeed points to jesus and his second coming. The two house theology like british israelism are being understood as well by genuine christians from every denom. It’s not a salvation issue for us and others like me and therefore non-essential.
The problem lies when we MAJOR on these practices/Beliefs and use some of them for legalistic purposes to the detriment of the Gospel and the church..and thus creates a cultic tendency. A good balance is required definetely
July 25th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Tim,
That one by Marvin Rosenthal is awesome.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
This is very sad. I began searching through the Hebraic roots of my faith through Simon 2 years ago and really enjoyed his books. I was also on the e-mail list of the Rabbi in Florida MK who started this. Over the last year his teaching got more and more radical (in a bad sense) and over the last 3 months Olygamy is the only topic he talks about. I am really sad for Aaliyah (Simons wife) and for thepeople in Pakistan that have been conned by him. What upsets me the most is that I am on Simon’s e-mail list and not once has he mentioned polygamy or anything to do with it. I guess this is because if most people on his list knew they would leave and stop supporting him financially. I pray that Simon repents before it is too late.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
For the record, I am not against the “Jewish Roots” of Christianity. I have supported Jewish groups in the past and will do so in the future. The groups I support though, have sound doctrine. Such as; Chosen People’s Ministry, Jews for Jesus, Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Zola Levit and MjAA.
These grpups have all blessed me tremendously blessed with a good understanding of the Feasts and how Jesus fulfilled them, etc. Something I think every Christian needs to understand.
When they start getting into the two house stuff things start going bad. They start by practicing “torah” then start to make it manditory. It is sad really.
July 25th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
Hi Rabbi Samuel,
My impression when you cite that many Prophets and Kings had more than one wife is that this is observation is being used to justify or promote polygamy.
As I understand it, this observation (the behavior of man, though righteous before God) is a weak argument for justifying polygamy.
For example, King David committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband murdered.
From this observation of David’s behavior, may we therefore ignore 2 (regarding adultery and murder) of the 10 commandments?
Shalom!
July 25th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
The books I bought are Your People Shall Be My People, Our Father Abraham: Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith, and The Irrevocable Calling: Israel’s Role as a Light to the Nations. I’m finishing the last one, which expounds on Paul’s Roman’s epistle, chapters 9-11.
As others have stated, I’ve found that learning about Christianity’s Jewish roots has enhanced my understanding of God and His Divine Plan for the world.
Thanks for starting your book recomendations list, Joel.
July 25th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
Tim, whoops. Our Father Abraham: Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith is the one I meant. Marvin Wilson, not Rosenthall.. Awesome book.
July 25th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Marriage is perfected in one man and one woman with the Spirit of the Living God between/in them. As God is Triune and perfect, so is the marriage perfect when He exists as the Third member of that marriage. As the man is the head of the wife and Christ is the head of the man there is a unity in that spiritual bond that nothing can come between. As Adam and Eve had God in their midst and it was perfect (until sin messed things up for us all…). But, polygamy is NOT of our God. He tolerated it in the OT because the Spirit had not come into believers’ hearts. Jesus defined it, as Jeff pointed out above. There is nothing new (doctinally) that allows for or justifies this kind of satanic assault, as pointed out above by GusReyes.
YES! The book by Rosenthal about the Feasts was truly a blessing that’s changed our ceremonies throughout the year! We will be celebrating most of them in Eternity together and with our Lord as well.
Shalom to all and Maranatha!
July 25th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
A follow-up: Thank you! to Walid and Joel for staying firmly grounded in the WORD of the ONE TRUE GOD! Your book is fabulous (”God’s War on Terror…”) and I highly recommend it to EVERYONE.
Baruch hashem Adonai!
July 25th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
I agree with Gina. I could not put down “God’s War on Terror.” I really appreciated all the scriptural references and read it with my bible on the side, so I could look things up for myself. I also appreciated Walid’s honesty and bravery and find myself a little worried about his and Joel’s safety (after reading the book).
July 26th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
Regarding using Hebrew names: true, learning the names in Hebrew is good for understanding what it means. But for a person who does not speak Hebrew, it doesn’t matter what the name is…. it will still be second hand translation. So it means the same whether it is Jesus, Iesous, Yeshua, Yesu, etc. It will always be translated. But for a Hebrew speaking person, by all means, us it when using Hebrew. It changes nothing… not God’s nature, nor what He has done. Jesus is the Only Savior!
Regarding polygamy, God’s word uses the picture of Christ and His Bride, the Church. No more, no less. Ponder upon it.
Regarding groups… I always have a very simple criteria. When a group thinks that they are the only one who is right, then in my opinion…. NOT! To think that all others have been deceived from the Apostles to today except that group flies against everything that God is and His revelations stands for.
July 27th, 2008 at 3:12 am
Christian polygamist must not understand the Holiness of “Holy Matrimony” in standard Christian theology. This relationship is exactly as amac says.
“Regarding polygamy, God’s word uses the picture of Christ and His Bride, the Church. No more, no less. Ponder upon it.”=quote
G-d created only one woman for Adam. This is his ideal, the two will become “one flesh”. He did not say the man and as many women as he can persuade to go along will become one flesh.
Consider Adam as a parable “type” of Christ. (who speaks in parables) Adam is put into a deep sleep, (Christ was killed on the cross)
G-d takes part of Adams side and creates Eve, who’s name means mother of all living. (Christ side is pierced and out flows blood and water) This blood and water that creates the Church.
This Eve is the one who was deceived by Satan into sin. She brings her sin to her husband, and he partakes of her sin. (Just as the Church brings her sins to Christ)
G-d blames Adam for the sin, “in Adam all have sinned”. I challenge you to find G-d saying in Eve all have sinned. Our Adam takes the blame for our sins, taking them upon himself.
The relationship between Adam and Eve brings forth new life. (Christ in you, the hope of glory)
Imagine that. The gospel of Christ, hidden right there in what could easily be misunderstood as a fairy tale, or worse, used to vilify and belittle women.
When one ponders the Spiritual significance G-d places on this relationship, one should easily see why polygamy clashes with the Christian ideal.
See also Ephesians chapter 5
July 27th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
Joels
“Rabbi” Thompson
I would be happy to discuss this issue with you here publicly. But before I respond to you, let me begin by asking you a few questions. Do you personally practice polygamy? And more importantly, so that we may begin this discussion on common ground, what is your basis of authority; you ask fro references from the “Scriptures”, but which books are you referring to and why is it that you accept these particular books and not others? Looking forward to your response.
Joel Richardson
Q Do you personally practice polygamy?
A No I do not at this time however I believe it is perfectly fine if one adds a wife as per Torah instructions and guidelines
Q And more importantly, so that we may begin this discussion on common ground, what is your basis of authority; you ask fro references from the “Scriptures”, but which books are you referring to and why is it that you accept these particular books and not others?
A The whole Bible and the Book of Yahshar-Jasher.
July 28th, 2008 at 12:01 am
Doug said
Hi Rabbi Samuel,
My impression when you cite that many Prophets and Kings had more than one wife is that this is observation is being used to justify or promote polygamy.
As I understand it, this observation (the behavior of man, though righteous before God) is a weak argument for justifying polygamy.
For example, King David committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband murdered.
From this observation of David’s behavior, may we therefore ignore 2 (regarding adultery and murder) of the 10 commandments?
Shalom!
Rabbi Samuels answer:
Again as many do they always refer to King David and His negative experience and forget that Yahweh also told King David in 2 Samuel 12:8-14
12:8 And I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
If David had have asked Yahweh for more wives Yahweh would have given David more.
12:9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of , to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
12:10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
12:11 Thus saith , Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
Yahweh gave His wives to His Neighbour to be theirs does not Exodus 20:17
20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
Either Yahweh is contridicting His own word or we are just reading it wrong maybe?
12:12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.
12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against . And Nathan said unto David, also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
Davvid Confesses His sin (Not that he had more than 1 wife but that he took another mans wife which is adultry)
12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
Davids penalty was that his child would die thus the penalty was paid for that sin of David of taking another mans wife and murdering the husband, if only David had have asked Yahweh for more wives Yahweh would have given them to him.
If we look at the other Patriarchs whom had more than 1 wife
Genesis 4:19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
Genesis 16:3 And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
Genesis 28:9 Then went Esau unto Ishmael, and took unto the wives which he had Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael Abraham’s son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife.
Genesis 31:17 Then Jacob rose up, and set his sons and his wives upon camels;
Judges 8:30 And Gideon had threescore and ten sons of his body begotten: for he had many
1Samuel 1:2 And he had two wives; the name of the one was Hannah, and the name of the other Peninnah: and Peninnah had children, but Hannah had no children.
1Samuel 25:43 David also took Ahinoam of Jezreel; and they were also both of them his wives.
1Samuel 27:3 And David dwelt with Achish at Gath, he and his men, every man with his household, even David with his two wives, Ahinoam the Jezreelitess, and Abigail the Carmelitess, Nabal’s wife.
1Chronicles 4:5 And Ashur the father of Tekoa had two wives, Helah and Naarah.
2Chronicles 13:21 But Abijah waxed mighty, and married fourteen wives, and begat twenty and two sons, and sixteen daughters.
2Chronicles 21:17 And they came up into Judah, and brake into it, and carried away all the substance that was found in the king’s house, and his sons also, and his wives; so that there was never a son left him, save Jehoahaz, the youngest of his sons.
2Chronicles 24:3 And Jehoiada took for him two wives; and he begat sons and daughters.
Jeremiah 29:6 Take ye wives, and beget sons and daughters; and take wives for your sons, and give your daughters to husbands, that they may bear sons and daughters; that ye may be increased there, and not diminished.
Furthermore Yahweh instructs us if we have 2 wives
Deuteronomy 21:15 If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
July 28th, 2008 at 6:18 am
Mr. Thompson,
Thank you for finally getting back.
First, what is the book of Yasher Jasher?
Why do you hold to the particular canon of the NT that you hold to?
What came first, the Church or the NT?
In history, when did the Church finally decide to canonized the canon that you follow?
Who were the men who decided this?
What measure of credence do you give to the men who met together to decide this particular canon? Do you accept the eccesiological authority conferred upon them by the Holy Spirit that they carried when they decided on this canon or do you utterly reject it?
Okay, now a few scenarios:
A married man goes away on a trip and unbeknownst to his first wife, gets married again. He returns and announces to his first wife that he has been sleeping with another women. Has he committed adultery?
If a man divorces his wife and then gets remarried, is it adultery?
A women divorces her husband and then he gets remarried, does he commit adultery?
Are we called to be imitators of Christ?
Are we called to be imitators of God?
At the marriage supper of the lamb, does the Bible speak of a bride or brides?
July 28th, 2008 at 6:46 pm
Shalom Joel,
With all due respect I can see where you are trying to take this discussion and I refuse to get into some discussion on these areas.
I note that you do not use the True Names of Yahweh or Yahshua and to be honest with you I came from a Christian backround and when in the Christian faith we have a Greek & Roman mindset of how scripture is translated, I feel that any further discussion on this subject would be in vain as many who have commented on this thread are not currently in a Hebraic Mindset, and really until your minds are renewed with the mind of Mosiach which is a Hebraic Mindset I am but waisting my time.
With respect
Rabbi Samuel Thompson
July 28th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Mr. Thompson,
I knew that you would not be able to publicly defend your perverse and unscriptural position. Darkness can never face the light of truth. The Jehovah’s Witnesses do they same thing; when confronted with truth, they run back to the safety of their heretical cult. As such, you will get no respect from me. Truth stands in triumph over error.
As for your claim to hold a Hebraic mindset simply because you use some Hebrew names, you only display your ignorance. A Biblical Hebraic mindset does not take the independent American post-enlightenment position that you have taken regarding authority. You are part of just another American cult. One man’s interpretation against the Apostolic interpretation as recorded in the writings of the early Church. The Apostles and the Bishops defeated Judaisers like you in the first few centuries of the Church. Solomon was correct when he said that there is nothing new under the sun. A Hebrew mind-set embraces an ancient community and its tradition. Merely using Hebrew means nothing. Symbolism over substance.
Regards,
Joel
July 28th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
Dear Brethren,
Please check out the link below.
Peace and Blessings in the Name of Yahuwah and Yahusha!
Dear affiliate of Moshe Koniuchowsky and Simon Altaf:
Just thought you might be interested in knowing the REAL truth about what Torah says concerning polygyny: http://therefinersfire.org/multiple_wives_myth.htm
The Refiner’s Fire (therefinersfire.org)
Revealing Biblical Truth in a world of myth and fiction
We teach that “Mercy and Grace” do NOT invalidate Torah!
Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Yeshua did. (1 John 2:6)
Jeff
July 28th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
For your information the Church as you all call it was founded upon Sun worship with practice of worshipping on the Sun-Day as opposed to Yahweh’s true day Shabbat which must be kept as an everlasting covenant for ever.
I am not interested in the writings of these so called Trinitarian thelogians who no nothing, and formed a Trinity/Tri-Unity Doctrine in approx 365 AD, its time to get back to Torah practice and repent and turn back to calling on the True Name of Yahweh instead of the Lord (Ba’al) and Jesus (Zeus) both foreign deities to that of Yahweh.
Exodus 20
20:3 Thou shalt have no other elohim before me.
20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I Yahweh thy Elohim am a jealous Elohim, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of Yahweh thy Elohim in vain; for Yahweh will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
This is what you all do when calling upon a pagan name and Title you are all very quick to attack the Hebraic application to scripture without realising that you are actually braking this coomandment by not useing His Name Yahweh and useing another Elohims Title.
20:8 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
20:10 But the seventh day is the Sabbath of Yahweh thy Elohim: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
20:11 For in six days Yahweh made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.
And you still worship on the first day of the week th day dedicated to the Sun deity thus its called Sun-Day.
In closing the First century church did not defeat Judaisers like me Joel, anyone practising anything Hebraic was killed or fed to the lions don’t come at me with that rubbish of defeat best way to shut a person up is kill them and this is what the so called “Church” did to the followers of Yahshua HaMoshiach go back and research and see for your self instead of labelling the Israelites who by the way is Yahweh’s chosen people.
From what I can see is you are Anti-Semetic, and I am glad that I am not going further in discussion with you because of this reason.
We will simply hit a brick wall of anti-semitism.
July 28th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
If Sunday is the worship of the “sun god”. Does this mean that Saturday is the worship if the “saturn god”? Do you worship saturn?
July 28th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
Donna,
Absolutly not the Hebrew word is Shabbat which means rest the first day of the week in Hebrew is Yom Reeshone which means the First Day (Of the week.
July 28th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Donna,
Do you keep Shabbat? or do you go to church on Sun-Day?
July 28th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
I honor the Sabbath as outlined in Hebrews 4. As for Church attendance? I do not attend Church on Sunday.
July 28th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
Mr. Samuelson,
Give me a break. I will not be distracted by your cheap effort to essentially use easy cliches as a distraction from the issue at hand. You have already invalidated yourself by running away and refusing to have a public discussion about your entirely unScriptural polygamy position. Unless you are willing to discuss the initial issues that you came here to challenge us regarding, you will be deleted. Period. I have no time for cultists who pervert the word of God.
July 28th, 2008 at 8:29 pm
Joel,
Every matter in the word of Yahweh requires at least 2 or at the most 3 witnesses to establish any matter.
Numbers 35:30 Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die.
Deuteronomy 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Please give me at least 2 Scriptures where Yahweh forbids the practice of Plural Marriage or where He punishes any of the Prophets/Kings & patriarchs such as Avraham, Ya’akov (Jacob) etc.
July 28th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
One last chance, answer my questions, or you are gone. This isn’t that difficult. Last warning.
July 28th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
It is a shame that people spend so much time worrying about what other groups are preaching or teaching instead of being focused in their own backyard. Plural marriage is not a sin, as some wayward people think it is, but it does carry with it extreme responsibility, especially those who understand this principle and have wives that are not going along with it. To the rest of the people who think its a sin, well, there are scriptural ignoramuses in every forum. Do the due diligence and you will see that is it blessed. It is especially telling when sunday keepers, and general churchians who don’t care about keeping the commandments in the exodus style are all about verbally stoning those who are walking a commandment keeping faith walk.
July 28th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
LOL , that’s good. I think I’ll jump in here and say that the 7th day being Saturn’s day renamed by the Romans is still the seventh day before being renamed, and yes, Sun-day is the fist day renamed by the Romans. So, when we see the commandment to remember to keep the 7th day holy, it first assumes that #1 we would forget, which we have, and to look for the 7th day.
July 28th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Samuel Thompson, every response you have posted shows your cultic mentality. You pervert God’s revelation!
The reason you don’t want to enter into a discussion is because you know you can’t control what is said, how it’s said, and how often your perverse twistings of Scripture can be stated. Cultists prey on the weak.
I hope you get deleted because you don’t want to exalt the truth, you want to exalt yourself.
July 28th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
Rabbi Sam:
Personally, since they miss the point of YHWH giving David more wives, and since they miss the point of YHWH regulating polygamy, and since they miss the point of Sunday not being the Sabbath, I think they will miss the point of almost any of the pearls of wisdom you could share.
YHWH did not just say, “Don’t eat pigs.” HE also said to not throw your pearls of wisdom before swine. Pigs are sneakily non-kosher. Their outsides look kosher/obedient, like so many people. However, their insides, because they don’t chew their cud, is unclean, like so many people. And that is the hypocricy that YHWH hates. Those that appear to be obedient to HIS W-rd, but are not. For them the 10 commandments hould be put up in every courthouse, school, and public building, but the 613, including the commandments that regulate polygamy, are to be discounted. I wish I understood where to get a pick and choose bible.
czarina
July 28th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
It seems to me that those who choose to follow the occult tend to align themselves with polygamy. Joseph Smith had a Kabbalah connection. As do many in the various “Hebrew Roots” cults. They start out with the “doctrine of the trinity” and then many start to distance themselves from it. Yahwists in particular seem to fall into this trap.
Maybe I am seeing something that is not there. However, after my years of research into these groups, they seem to follow a similar pattern. This has just been my observation.
July 29th, 2008 at 6:31 am
Czarina, Michelle,
From “Rabbi” Moshe’s book ‘Sex and the Believer’ page 58:
Sex slaves? And you call us “pigs”? Eh-emmm.
Now, since your so called Rabbi was too afraid of being exposed publicly for his entirely unScriptural and unsupportable teaching and was unable to defend his position, lets see if his followers are any more reasonable:
You say that you honor all 613 commandments of the Torah.
When someone breaks Shabbat, would you stone them to death?
Define Adultery.
Would you stone someone for committing adultery?
Shimon Altaf has said that he is to marry another wife against his first wife’s will. If he does so, does he commit adultery?
If he had divorced his first wife first, would the second marriage be adultery?
If Shimon’s first wife remarries after Shimon leaves her for another women, does she commit adultery?
Are we called to imitate Christ?
July 29th, 2008 at 6:40 am
“HMI Admin”
If you have the courage to identify yourself, and have an intelligent public discussion about this issue, I would happy be do so. If you desire to do so, you may begin by answering the following questions:
What is adultery?
If a man marries a second wife is it adultery?
If a man divorces his first wife and then marries another, is it adultery?
Simple questions.
How would you honestly feel if your wife announced to you that she wanted to marry another man or a couple other men?
Tell me if I am correct: you believe that if you “marry” two women, you are blessed, but if your wife took two “husbands” she should be stoned to death.
Be honest.
Joel
July 29th, 2008 at 10:52 am
Joel, adultery is defined in the scriptures as either a man sleeping with an already married woman, or in divorcing unscripturally a woman, for some little reason, and thereby “causing” her adultery when she sleeps with the next man. If a man marries a single woman, even if he is already married, he has no committed the strict biblical definition of adultery, but in this case, he becomes polygynous. If a man divorces his wife, unless there is a good Matthew 19:9/Deuteronomy 24 reason to do so, he “causes” her adultery when the woman divorced marries another man. If a man divorces a woman without a legitimate reason, some true uncleanness, and then marries another woman, the act of him taking the second wife is not the adultery part, but his putting the first wife away wrongly incurs on him the “blame” of her subsequent adultery. If my wife announced to me she was taking another husband, I would be rather heartbroken, since it would mean she was becoming a harlot, and the woman I thought I knew I really didn’t know. There is no scriptural prescription for women to have multiple husbands. And yes, if she took another man outside of our marital vows, in ancient Israel, the case could be pressed with a result of stoning, “if” the husband wished to press it.
There is a scriptural double standard when it comes to marriage Joel. It troubles the egalitarian mind I know, but YHWH knows what HE is doing.
Gregory. HMI Admin
July 29th, 2008 at 11:07 am
I, like others in this discussion, have had my eyes opened to certain truths about living and thinking Hebraicly. Please take note that I did not say “Jewish.” My wife and I were not taught by a person, or shown these things by an earthly teacher, but rather over a period of time by the Holy Spirit.
I have emailed a couple of times with Simon, and the topic was adultery, but he never mentioned polygamy, or even alluded to it. I am not a “follower” of his, and certainly not of MK’s (I speak against him as a false teacher), but let me see if I can answer some of your questions, with Scriptural basis as I can. As for anyone in this discussion being an anti-Semite, I think the term is too often used incorrectly and out of ignorance. There are several people that I have conversed with that are as ignorant about being Hebraic, by their own choice or not, as those who are Messianic/Hebraic are about those who are considered “leaders”. Some people state that they are part of the “Messianic Movement,” but are also ignorant of what they are saying. I have an article on my website that states that a “movement” is a temporary thing, and they are dooming themselves by saying that they are temporarily following the Messiah.
And just as an FYI, I don’t agree with the polygamists.
On to Joel’s questions:
Adultery: Having sexual relations with a woman who is married to someone else. (Leviticus 20:10, Ezekiel 16:32, Romans 7:3)
Marrying a second wife: Not adultery, as long as the woman is not already married. If lust is involved, according to Yeshua, there is already adultery involved. (Matthew 5:28) However, Paul states that it is not recommended to have more than one wife, because of the temptation of sexual immorality. (1 Corinthians 7:12)
** Many who follow MK believe that Paul’s words are only a commentary on the Torah, and therefore any instruction in his words are not to be held fast as a direct instruction from YHWH. Therefore, following this off-the-wall thinking (which is a slippery slope way of thinking) would therefore disregard the “suggestion” mentioned in my last statement above.
Divorcing the first wife, aside from having adultery as the reason for divorce, is not adultery. (Matthew 5:32) Divorcing just for the sake of divorcing and marrying another leads to adultery. (Mark 10:11-12)
From your questions to Czarina:
Are we to physically follow ALL of the instructions in Torah? Of course not…it is impossible, as some are designed only for women, some are designed only for Levitical priests, some are designed only for those residing in Israel, etc. However, I have heard it said that for every physical instruction in the Bible, there is a spiritual implication. I believe this is the foundation of Yeshua’s words regarding adultery and lust.
Stoning for breaking Shabbat or for adultery:
No. It goes against our country’s laws. (Romans 13:1-2, Titus 3:1-2)
Shimon Altaf has said that he is to marry another wife against his first wife’s will. If he does so, does he commit adultery?
See my answer above on adultery. He would also be going against Paul’s teaching regarding having authority your spouse’s body. (1 Corinthians 7:4)
If he had divorced his first wife first, would the second marriage be adultery?
See my answer above on adultery.
If Shimon’s first wife remarries after Shimon leaves her for another women, does she commit adultery?
See my answer above on adultery. It also depends on if he dies before she remarries. If he dies, she is free to remarry.
Are we called to imitate Christ?
Yes. (1 Corinthians 11:1)
Final thought:
Women are called to be the wife of a single husband. (2 Corinthians 11:2) There is only to be one Bride. (Revelation 19:7, 21:9)
July 29th, 2008 at 11:46 am
Speaking of teaching…what doctrine are these allegedly learned people coming out with:
1) Isaac was a literal burnt offering…Moshe Koniuchowsky has changed his position since but it does allude to his overreactive imagination don’t you think…which right now is more perverted than a prostitute.
2) That the messiah was literally a leper by doing mental gymnastics with Isaiah 53. Most normal people understand that to mean that he was cut off from his people, ostricised by his community etc but oh no these people must find a hidden meaning in every passage and have come to the conclusion that he was literally leperous. Question how could he be the spotless, blemish free lamb of Hashem if he was leperous. Why did the woman touch the fringes of his garments if he’s plagued with leperousy. How was he able to dine with people in that society if he was leperous?
3) Wholewheat unleavened bread doctrine - I won’t comment on that as I haven’t looked in detail but no doubt they have found the literal, Remez and drash interpretation there somewhere!
4) Now this polygamy thing, although I accept it was practiced in the patriachial culture and these people were not condemned, hardly sings the sentiments of love, compassion, mercy and understanding.
Just read what Chris Schaeffer of this horrible cult sent me via e-mail?
………………………………………………………………………………………………
To: aaliyahaltaf@live.co.uk
Subject: my wife
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 07:30:58 -0400
From: u33sun@aim.com
my wife tried the same garbage on me many times when I realized the truth of Torah .
She did it again when i wrote 4 chapters for Koniuchowsky’s book
She told me that “God” gives her the right to overrule me and rule over me.
So last week, by YHWH, I declared a conditional curse on her.
An undeserved curse returns from whence it came,
but a deserved curse stays where it was sent unless the cursed one repents.
She’s been behaving herself since.
Get ready.
…………………………………………………………………………………………..
He’s claiming in another blog somewhere that he has been “advising me”. Correct me if I’m wrong but that sounds like a threat.
These people are vicious and vindictive and their fruit show them up for what they really are. They are evil.
Love in Moshiach
Aaliyah Altaf
July 29th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
This is what I do not understand. How can a man claim to love his wife and then marry another? How can a man who is acting in a Godly manner, do this?
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
It is demeaning to a women. For many reasons. How can a man who claims to love a women be so cruel and mean to her?
July 29th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Aaliyah,
Please know that our heart goes out to you and that we are praying for your heart during this time. Please know that the Lord is close to you, especially at this time and the further that these men go their own way, the farther He is from them. Even if your earthly husband abandons you, your heavenly husband never will.
Bless you, Joel
July 29th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Gregory,
Thank you for making an effort to respond. Unfortunately your answers only reveal your unScriptural perspective. The so-called “Rabbi” Thompson had his chance to respond Biblically but was unable, so he has only resorted to name -calling; proof of his inability to defend his perverted position. Now, please consider my analysis of your position. You said:
In summary Gregory, according to what you have articulated here, if a man divorces his wife “for some little reason”, and remarries, he himself has not personally committed adultery but is only guilty if his wife remarries and thus sleeps with another man. I’m glad that you admit that your position is a double standard.
First a brief parable:
Mike and Nancy get married. Within the first year of marriage, Mike secretly falls into the bondage of lust. Mike announces to Nancy that he wants to have sex with another women and as such Nancy is heartbroken and moves out. Mike takes the opportunity to marry a second wife. According to your position, Mike has not committed actual adultery. But if Nancy ever remarries a godly man, she is in sin. Mike however is only guilty if he agrees to divorce her. Otherwise he is free of sin. That my friend is a perverted position. What you fail to realize is that while the Bible affords different roles to men and women, it never affords them different values. God values Women and Men equally. So this “double standard” that you admit to is one not of role, but of value. That is entirely unbiblical and even demonic. Now, on to the first piece of Scripture. Jesus said:
“Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.
“And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
Jesus’ point here is simple. If a man divorces his wife for an illegitimate reason, his divorce is also illegitimate. Now follow this: IF HE REMARRIES, HE IS STILL CONSIDERED A MARRIED MAN AND THUS BY SLEEPING WITH A SECOND WOMEN HAS COMMITTED ADULTERY. The message and logic here is clear and is irrefutable. By supporting polygamy, you reject the teaching of the Lord. Period. I only have one word for you: Repent.
July 29th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
Thus far, the only argument that I have seen in support of polygamy is that the Patriarchs practiced it. Thus the argument goes that it is allowed and even blessed by God for all believers today. If these heretical perverts and rebels had taken Logic 101 in junior college they would see the obvious flaw in their reasoning. But the demons of lust have blinded their minds.
A good way to illustrate the flawed logic is to discuss a very similar topic: Divorce. Not only was divorce “authorized” in the Mosaic Law (Deut 24), in Ezra 10 with the returned exiles who had married pagan women, it was even “demanded”. Should we thus believe that God looks favorably upon divorce? Shold we thus argue that divorce should be the norm? Of course not. This is to argue that the exception is the rule. Yet this is precisley the reasoning of these perverts. Divorce is in fact expressly stated to be hated by God (Malachi 2.16) and it is expressly prohibited by Jesus, except in extreme situations (Matt 19). So while divorce is permitted by God because of human failings (i.e., hardness of heart–Mt 19.8) this does not mean that it is Gods desire for any of us. And the same can be said for Polygamy. While God allowed it in some cases in ancient times, like divorce, because of the hardness of the hearts or moral weakness of some people, he allowed it, but still hates it and even prohibits it today as is made clear in Jesus’ statement that I cited above (Matthew 19). What these perverters of Scripture who twist the Bible to their own destruction and the destruction of their families, is that rather than looking to the exceptions in Biblical history, we should instead look to the principle based statements in Scripture. This is where we see the will and heart of God. When one looks to exceptions and extreme circumstances then it only proves that one is determined to prove a foregone conclusion and not look for God’s heart on a matter as any of His true children would do.
Oh Lord, How long until you return? Come Lord Jesus. The Spirit and the Bride say “come!”
July 29th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
Joel, my arguments were sound, and biblically conclusive. You are the one trying to undo what the whole of scripture defines these terms as being. In your example, depending on whether or not Nancy had the luxury of a monogamy only vow with Mike, and there was not defrauding in the marriage bed, or there were heirs produced, Mike could not take another wife without being a covenant breaker. That is not the same as an adulterer. And yes, if Nancy flew the coop, and yet still desired to be called a beleiver, and practied accordingly, except in a separated state, Paul’s admonition comes to bear -
1Cor:7:11: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband:
However, if she breaks this commandment, she is then accounted an adulteress, whether or not her husband took another wife in her absence. In this case, her husband is not guilty of her adultery, UNLESS he divorced her, in this case “wrongly”, which is why Paul says at the end of the verse I quoted - “and let not the husband put away his wife.”
Joel, you have much to learn about biblical law and marriage. People who understand plural marriage is not sinful are mostly veterans who have studied this issue for decades, debated it on email lists for years and years. If you think there is not a double standard in the bible between the sexes regarding marriage, you are surely deceived. And worse, if you think plural marriage is absolutely forbidden, it brings you under the heading of having a “doctrine of demons,” -(1Tm:4:3: Forbidding to marry,) which Paul warned us against “because” that position is against Torah.
Now, for the record, I DO NOT AGREE TO MEN TAKING ANOTHER WIFE AGAINST THE WISHES OF THEIR FIRST WIFE. I DO NOT BELIEVE IN COERCION ON ANY LEVEL REGARDING THIS. It is a horrible mistake for a man to force polygamy on his wife in this day and time because she will just leave and he will end up replacing one wife with another most likely.
And Joel, you need to repent for falsely judging.
Gregory , HMI Admin
July 29th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
Blah Blah Blah Blah. I judge according to what my Lord has clearly stated. More than one woman with one man is adultery. If you choose to dance around Jesus’ clear statement you do so to your own destruction. Jesus made it clear that if a man is married and he marries another women, he commits adultery. End of discussion.
July 30th, 2008 at 1:23 am
Joel,
Matthew, Mark and Luke all agree to what Jesus said regarding adultery. Everything is established by 2 or three witnesses. So, here are 3 witnesses that polygamy is adultery.
July 30th, 2008 at 2:22 am
Rabbi,
Are you saying that Moses is higher then Jesus? Or that the OT prophets were higher then Jesus? Are you saying Jesus taught against the Tanak? Did he teach against it or did he clarify it?
July 30th, 2008 at 2:40 am
The husband of the women or the man who commited adultery with her?
July 30th, 2008 at 2:45 am
If Yahshua revealed torah in it’s intended fullness and this fullness says that being married to more then one women is adultery, then does not this fullness give us the heart and mind of Yahweh?
Does not Yahshua’s declaration then not tell us the truth of the matter before us? That being married to more then one wife is adultery in the eyes of Yahweh?
July 30th, 2008 at 2:49 am
Let me repeat the question. For I have a typo in the above post.
Does Yahshua’s declaration tell us the truth of the matter before us? That being married to more then one women is considered to be adultery in the eyes of Yahweh?
July 30th, 2008 at 3:25 am
Where did I say, “add a wife”?
Here is what Yahshua said;
Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except [it be] for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Mar 10:11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from [her] husband committeth adultery.
So, if it is adultery to divorce and marry another, How does forgoing the divorce make the second marriage be anything less then adultery?
July 30th, 2008 at 3:51 am
Rabbi,
Excuse me for being so troublesome. However, divorcing a women is not adultery. A husband or wife having sexual relations with a man/women that one is not married to is adultery. Again, how does forgoing the divorce prevent the second marriage from being adultery?
July 30th, 2008 at 4:11 am
Rabbi,
We can see in this thread that many women caught up in polygamy are not there by choice. We seem to have had one man already curse his wife for not submitting to his desire for a second wife.
When I read that I couldn’t help but think of witchcraft. Is this what is being taught? Curse those who do not submit? Where is the love, kindness, gentleness, and self control?
This is not unlike those caught in the Mormon religion, or those women in Islam. You call this loving your women? How many women through the years have been abused and oppressed by this type of thinking? Believe me there is a difference between oppression and willing obedience to a man who has the women’s best interests at heart.
July 30th, 2008 at 6:16 am
Donna, please know that I am deleting Mr. Thompson’s posts as I said I would. I rarely ever do this. But I warned him very clearly and gave him ample chance to have a rational discussion.
Once again, I will lay it out verrrry slowly for those who are hard of heart and slow of mind. Donna quotes each Gospel:
The first point that Jesus is making is that if someone puts away (divorces) his first wife for illegitimate reasons, his marriage is not disolved in the eyes of God. So the man is still married as is the wife.
But then comes the zinger for polygamists: Jesus then said that if the man or women marry another they are BOTH committing adultery. Bingo. If plural marriages were acceptable to Christ, then this would not be adultery. Dance around it all you want polygamists, its right there. Because they are still married, taking a second wife or husband is adultery.
Oh wait, maybe this has been mistranslated by translators with a Greek-Mindset. Yeah that’s it. Or wait, maybe we can just ignore this because it is only the New Testament. One man walks away from the error and extreme of replacement theology only to replace it with another extreme. First he ignores the clear meaning of the Old Testament and now he ignores the New. Ho hum… Like I said earlier, nothing new under the Sun. The heresies of the first few centuries are all returning. The Gnostics, the Judaisers, the Arians, the Nicolatians, they are all making a come-back.
Come Lord Jesus. The Spirit and the Bride Say, “Come!”
July 30th, 2008 at 10:27 am
HMI and Rabbi Sam,
Whats funny is that you sound no different than those who practice Islam, tell me what are your veiws on.. uh, lets say… JIHAD???
July 30th, 2008 at 11:21 am
Joel is in error to assume that when the man marries the second it is adultery. The Hebrew term is Na’aph and it means simply to cause a woman to break her wedlock vow to her rightful husband. Thus the second guy marrying the wife wrongly put away is doing just that, BUT the blame for it is laid on the first husbands doorstep. In the meantime, however, if the husband who wrongly put away the first wife marries another wife, there is no sin in this, because that is a separate marriage.
This is what is boils down to. When a wife marries a man, she is in a type of relationship that is most like a servant who is indentured to a master. There is only 1 master, and he must provide food, clothing and other necessities for the servant if he is a good master. Now, when a husband marries a wife, he is “taking on” a servant in the closest parallel in the scriptures. Now, a master can take on more than one servant as long as he cares for them well. This is the dynamic that women need to understand when they marry a man. Now, let me say this, wives do have an extra set of rights in the marriage, and that is the marital right and there are other closer and more intimate issues involved in the marriage of course, BUT in terms of power, authority, and what can or cannot scripturally be done, or how the relationships are arranged biblically, the closest parallel is a master to servant relationship. We also see this etymologically, in the term “husband” which means master of the house from the words husbonda or husbondi in various languages, but the common denominator is the husband is the “bond man” over the wife. There is only 1 husband, but like servants, there can be more than 1 wife/servants biblically. Anything else violates a plethora of Torah regulations and scriptures. And no, Yahshua never undid anything in the Torah. Yahshua agreed with the Torah since He was the one that wrote it back at Sinai.
Now, you can censor and cut out posts all you like Joel, and you can make your little ad hominem attacks. I am happy to answer scripturally any questions with supports if you like. However, to say that polygamy = adultery just shows an abysmal ignorance of scripture. Nothing more, nothing less.
Gregory , HMI admin.
July 30th, 2008 at 11:50 am
Joels absolutley right…
Heres another point.. 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, THE HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach.
If having multiple wives was okay then why did both Jesus and Paul set such standards.
Hey Sammy there your two or three witnesses brother…
Joel,
Ya know I think the real issue here is not that of what the bible teaches concerning marriage, but that of men making excuses for having hearts full of lust.
Jesus also said “whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has commited adultry already in his heart”…
You fellas need to take that thing to Jesus in repentance and let him deal with it.
He is faithful and just to forgive and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Alot of men struggle with this problem so don’t be ashamed and run from Jesus, run to Jesus he will be there to help…
I and I’m sure Joel and everyone else is praying for you…
July 30th, 2008 at 11:57 am
HMI,
So, do you also practice stoning, just wondering?
Really brother, what part of one wife do you not understand?
July 30th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
HMI,
How is your walk with Jesus man, are you still on fire… the way you were when you first believed?
I ask this because you know when passion dies character always follows.
And where there is weak character there is comprimise, and comprimise is the welcome mat of deception…
Understand I’m not attacking you I’m just simply asking questions out of concern.
July 30th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Adam, just because we do not have a Torah government to put into practice the civil penalties such as stoning, does not mean that we cannot as believers obey the moral commandments found in the scriptures from Genesis-Revelations. We can still try to keep those commandments that we can be done in this exile.
July 30th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Greg,
Maybe you can answer the question then. How does forgoing divorce prevent the second marriage from being adulterous?
Joel- Not a problem. Thank you for standing up for what is right.
Donna
July 30th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Gregory, HMI ADMIN,
You said:
Sigh… Why do I bother? Once again, this time verrrrry slowly. We are reading from the words of Jesus. You know the New Testament? Written in Greek? Lets look at the passages again.
The English word there is Adultery. In the Greek it is Moichao. It means to commit adultery. The Husband committs adultery because his first marriage is still valid. Are you honestly this dumb? Is this what runaway lust does to a weak mind? Once again, you not only display your perversity but also your ignorance. The word is not Hebrew Na’aph but the Greek Moichao. Can you say A-D-U-L-T-E-R-R-Y? Look it up sicko.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Mat&chapter=19&verse=9&version=KJV#9
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3429&t=kjv
July 30th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
These are the last days, and what is seen here proves that. There will be many who leave the life of Yahweh, it is meant to be.
It’s a shame to think that people would believe that Yahweh would approve multiple wives as there are many scriptures already stated here that proves otherwise. People are forgetting that satan also brings dreams and can make them feel as if they are from Yahweh, but in fact they are not. For those who do get taken in by deceit, it only proves they were not close to Yahweh in the first place.
Scripture reflect that if your brother is doing wrong, you go to him once and speak to him. It doesn’t say to debate or argue this only causes more dissension and that is not good for either one. All that can be done if the brother doesn’t listen is pray that one day he will be awakened and realize that he did wrong, and have the courage to correct it.
July 30th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
By the way Joel is not translating Matthew, Mark, or Luke, He is just simply reading the text… because its just that plain and simple.
Jesus is the supreme court of all scripture and he called it adultry, because thats exactly what it is no ifs ands or buts about it…
HMI,
Not sure I understood your response correctly, are you saying that the only thing stopping you from stoning someone caught in the act of adultry are the laws that currently govern our country, if so, thats scary.
And seeing, based on the very words of Christ himself, that, poligamy is adultry should you be stoned?
Really, you might want to go and get you a koran because I think that kind of lifestyle is probably more your speed.
I honestly question your salvation brother, your saying some pretty scary stuff… Wait a minute is this Osama bin Laden I’m talking too.
July 30th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
Your error Joel is first in assuming the NT was originally written in Greek. It wasn’t in our view. Your second error is in assuming that the Messiah was saying anything different than what he wrote the first time in the Torah. Matthew 19:9 and Deuteronomy 24 are perfectly in harmony. The problem was that the Pharisees were not practicing what was in Deuteronomy 24, as they were yet again adding or subtracting. This is why they asked the question “for any cause.” Now, when they said “moses” said ,such and such, they were not referring to Moses the very figure that led the Israelites out of Egypt, they were referring to the seat of Moses, occupied by the Pharisees, who, depending on what school of Pharisee-ism was in control in the region or at the time, told people what they could divorce for and what they could not divorce for. Yahshua, the messiah reiterated Deuteronomy 24 “uncleanness” by saying in Matthew 19:9 “saving for the cause of fornication.”
Additionally, because Greece was serial monogamist, the very language itself will not convey a biblically Hebraic model of marriage, the subtle nuances will be lost. Hence, your desires to use the Greek to prove your point is counterproductive to discovering the true substance of what is being said in the text. But even with the Greek, if you look at what the Septuagint says regarding the laws of marriage, the context will lend you the answer, that adultery is simply doing anything that breaks a current wedding vow to a rightful husband. Marrying a single woman, whether she be the first or the second, no matter the situation, is not in any way adultery.
As for the Muslims, they have an abusive system of patriarchy, but it is closer to the Hebraic/scriptural model than the papist/catholic model.
July 30th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
So, then by Greg’s definition of adultery, if we do not divorce just marry again we are not committing adultery? Why not just all marry each other, then we never have to worry about adultery again.
HMI, I still want to you to address the man who cursed his wife for not submitting to his lust for a second wife.
July 30th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
HMI,
Luke 16:18. Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from (her) husband commiteth adultery.
So your saying that if I put away my wife and marry another its adultery, but if I marry another first, and then put away my wife its okay?
Are you serious?
Here I have a question for ya HMI, why would you need more than one wife in the first place?
Oh, and what do you do with what Paul said about being the husband of one wife. Why, if its okay to marry more than one then why did he make such a statement concerning bishops (or those in the ministry)?
And What makes them different from others who are not called to be in the ministry, why only one wife for them?
Looking foward to your response, I’m sure it’ll be interesting…
July 30th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Alright HMI, you wanna try use the Semitic/Hebraic-mindset argument to justify this debauchery? Then I have a challenge for you:
Yeshua’s native language was what? Aramaic, right? He spoke to these Pharisees in what language? Aramaic again, still with me? The Maronites, Syrian Orthodox Church, Assyrian Church of the East and the Church of Mar Thoma all use the Aramaic New Testament, known as the Peshitta, and have been doing so for centuries - they are the world experts on the spoken language of Yeshua. Now my question to you is:
WHY IS IT THAT THE ARAMEAN CHRISTIANS NEVER PRACTICED BIGAMY/POLYGAMY???
This is also a Semitic culture, who are descendents of the Assyrians & Babylonians that was rife with polygamy before the Gospel reached them. But they STOPPED when they accepted the Gospel and have never practiced this debauchery since. Why? Because this is what their NT says:
“But I say to you that he who leaves his wife without [a charge of] adultery and takes another commits adultery. And he that takes a divorced woman commits adultery.” (Matthew 19:9, Paul D. Younan)
http://www.peshitta.org/pdf/Mattich19.pdf
And he said to them: “Anyone who divorces his wife and takes another commits adultery.” (Mark 10:11, Paul D. Younan)
http://www.peshitta.org/pdf/Marqsch10.pdf
“Everyone who divorces his wife and takes another commits adultery, and everyone who takes a divorced [woman] commits adultery.” (Luke 16:18, Paul D. Younan)
http://www.peshitta.org/pdf/Luqach16.pdf
From what I can see the Aramaic only hits the point home even harder!
BTW I saw that Altaf quotes this Peshitta interlinear in his new sleazy articles to try and justify this crap. The translator is a native Aramaic speaker, and deacon in the Assyrian Church of the East. And he would probably not be happy to hear that his hard work with this interlinear which is meant to bring glory to YHWH, is being used by some cultists to drag His Holy Name through the mud!
July 30th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
Good point Donna, if we all get married then there is no adultery to commit…
July 30th, 2008 at 7:12 pm
Adam, it just seems to get sicker and sicker. Oh, and I just love how these groups redefine something. Notice how they define adultery as divorce? This is a slippery slop and all that. I mean how else are these groups starting to conform to Islam rather then Orthodox Christianity? I mean is Islam a combination of apostate Judaism and apostate Christianity? It rather seems that way doesn’t it?
July 30th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
HMI,
I think you are missing the point of Jesus. To have adultery requires putting away the 1st wife AND marrying another wife. Not just putting away the first wife. Divorcing the 1st wife and not marrying again would not make it adultery. It is not the breaking of the vow that makes it adultery, but the sexual relationship between the husband with another women, who is not his 1st wife.
July 30th, 2008 at 7:33 pm
Gregory,
Thank you. You now have displayed your faulty position. Your entire case rests on the notion that the original NT was written in Hebrew or Aramaic and that the Greek manuscripts that we posses today are all mere perversions of the original. In other words, we do not have the original New Testament. It has been lost. Yet you have zero evidence to support this notion. All legitimate scholarship says that the New Testament was written in Greek with a few exceptions such as possibly Matthew and Hebrews. But I’m glad that you finally admit that your position is NOT based on the words of Jesus but only the supposed lost words of Jesus of which we have no evidence that it ever existed. I rest my case. I am done with you. Let every true believer who is a member of this cult recognize that they have been deceived and leave while they can before their family and lives are destroyed. We will be praying for you, in this time of trial. Lord Have Mercy on us all. Maranatha. The Spirit and the Bride Say Come.
July 30th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
Sarah,
I fully agree with you. But because so many are reading this, including many that are bound by this cult it is important to publicly expose this family destroying, women devaluing perversion of Scripture.
I want to ask anyone who has been following this post to forgive me if I have in any way acted less than Christ-like. I am deeply grieved not only for the many families that will surely be ripped apart by this cult but also by the state of the Body of Christ. I long for His return sometimes so deeply that it physically hurts. Maranatha.
July 30th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
Donna,
I think the bottom line is that people like HMI and Sammy need to know Jesus.Its evident that they really don’t, because if they did they would never come to such conclusions.
They follow idols and belly gods, in truth they actually reject Christ and his work of redemption. Only thing you can do is pray, thats all I know to do…
July 30th, 2008 at 8:14 pm
When confronted with a trap question regarding divorce, our Lord refered the people to Genesis to make clear God’s intention. Likewise, when talking about polygamy, the same passage provides an answer and it says:
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. (Gen 2:24, KJV)
Notice, that in the Hebrew, it says “his wife” (ishto). It is in the singular, and not “his wives” (nashav), in the plural.
Just as the Lord made clear that divorce is not God’s intention, but a perversion due to the hardness of man’s heart, polygamy is also not God’s intention, but a perversion of the becoming of “one flesh” (basar echad) of a husband and his wife (ishto).
Why accept the second “best”?
July 30th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
Adam,
Prayer is the only thing I know of that can break down spiritual blindness and wickedness. It is only by God’s strength that any of us can claim victory over satan and sin.
I am with Joel in this. Sometimes I get so discouraged by the rampant sin, all I do is long to go home and be with God.
July 31st, 2008 at 8:06 am
HMI Gregory said:
“Additionally, because Greece was serial monogamist, the very language itself will not convey a biblically Hebraic model of marriage, the subtle nuances will be lost. Hence, your desires to use the Greek to prove your point is counterproductive to discovering the true substance of what is being said in the text.”
Maryam says:
FYI Greece was not “serial monogamist”, and I should know cause I myself am Greek. Ancient Greek philosophy recommends that men have 3 women:
1. one legal wife - for the purpose of child-bearing
2. one platonic female friend - for the purpose of conversation
3. one courtesan - for the purpose of sexual pleasure
In addition to this “male lovers” are also recommended. Now anyone with half a brain will agree that this scenario is anything but “serial monogamy”! Furthermore even though historical records portray Greco-Roman marriages as “monogamus” there is no historical evidence that polygamy was ever forbidden under Greco-Roman law or that it was considered immoral. Considering the fact the Alexander the Great and his father Philip practiced polygamy themselves, coupled with the fact that the Greco-Roman religion involved lewd acts such as temple prostitution, leaves me to conclude that if prostution & homosexuality was endorsed by the Greeks then so was polygamy!!!
July 31st, 2008 at 9:32 am
Well, since my posts are being censored, I cannot respond, but Greece was serial monogamist testified in the fact that only one “legal” wife could be in office at any one time. I am not saying the Greeks did not have their extras on the side, its just that they refused to give those extras the recognition and rights as the first official wife. That is a classic serial monogamist society.
“As in Rome and Greece, so in all the modern European nations one man is confined to one wife; plurality of wives is not allowed, neither where voluntary divorce takes place or when it does not.” - Lectures on Jurisprudence. Contributors: R. L. Meek - editor, D. D. Raphael - editor, Adam Smith - author, P. G. Stein - editor. Publisher: Oxford University. Place of Publication: Oxford. Publication Year: 1978. Page Number: 150.
July 31st, 2008 at 10:48 am
Additionally, I would like to address Maryam who wrote -
Alright HMI, you wanna try use the Semitic/Hebraic-mindset argument to justify this debauchery? Then I have a challenge for you:
Yeshua’s native language was what? Aramaic, right? He spoke to these Pharisees in what language? Aramaic again, still with me? The Maronites, Syrian Orthodox Church, Assyrian Church of the East and the Church of Mar Thoma all use the Aramaic New Testament, known as the Peshitta, and have been doing so for centuries - they are the world experts on the spoken language of Yeshua. Now my question to you is:
WHY IS IT THAT THE ARAMEAN CHRISTIANS NEVER PRACTICED BIGAMY/POLYGAMY???
This is also a Semitic culture, who are descendents of the Assyrians & Babylonians that was rife with polygamy before the Gospel reached them. But they STOPPED when they accepted the Gospel and have never practiced this debauchery since. ”
Maryam, There were instances of plural marriage in the East as well as the West. Valentinian was eastern orthodox, yet ruled over all of Rome for a time -
“Some particular reasons induced Valentinian 2 to permit polygamy in the empire.” - The Spirit of Laws. Contributors: Baron De Montesquieu - author, Jean Jacques Rousseau - author, Charles De Secondat - author. Publisher: Encyclopaedia Brittanica. Place of Publication: Chicago. Publication Year: 1952. Page Number: 116.
2
See Jornandes, De Regno et tempor. success. , and the ecclesiastic historians.
Who was Valentinian?
“321–75, Roman emperor of the West (364–75). He held high military rank under Julian and Jovian. After the death of Jovian, Valentinian was proclaimed emperor; he appointed his brother Valens coregent in the East. Valentinian defeated the Alemanni several times, and his general Theodosius successfully defended the empire in Britain and in Africa. To protect the frontiers of his empire, Valentinian ordered the construction of fortresses on the Rhine and the Danube rivers. He reduced taxation and promoted education. Although he was an orthodox Christian, he allowed religious freedom to Arians and to pagans.” - The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Publisher: Columbia University Press. Place of Publication: New York. Publication Year: 2004
July 31st, 2008 at 10:59 am
HMI,
Brother, it doesn’t really matter what language he said it in. I mean, he could’ve said it in chinese for all I care, the fact is he said it. Marriage is between one man and one woman… period.
July 31st, 2008 at 11:14 am
Donna,
Yeah, it can be overwhelming at times, but hey…
Theres still a cross that bleeds…
Theres still an empty tomb…
Theres still a Spirit that fills…
And theres still a triumphant church of Jesus Christ that the gates of hell shall not prevail agianst…
Actually, these are exciting times, the Prophets longed to see these days.
Many say, ya know when I get there I’m gonna talk to Abraham, I wanna meet Paul. But really, their gonna wanna meet us, because this is the greatest generation of all time…
July 31st, 2008 at 11:16 am
had to chime in…YHWH is not into polygamy although he has tolerated it throughout history…this is a situation where I agree with my christian friends…although that is precisely what “christianity” teaches.
Israel + The Church married to One God. The fact is, Abba is not married. He is the SELF Sufficient\Existant One Eternally. He selects the bride for His Son, Yahshua. When I teach, in synagogues and sunday environments…I do my best to equally apply the scriptures which serves as an indictment against legalism and pagan ritual from front to back. What I have found is that most “christians” are suprised to find out that 90% of what they learn in church is of pagan origin and when they find this out they are angry, feel cheated and lied to. Eventually, this frustration has to be transformed into compassion for those bound by religion, whether on Friday, the shabbat or sunday. Again, we are commanded to call the shabbat “a delight” forever in ALL of our dwellings and in all of generations as a perpetual sign between us and YHWH. It is a gift and a doorway to his timetable. There is legalism everywhere. As a nationally recognized speaker in the Messianic community I must say that Simon & Moshe are WRONG and are not representative of the Messianic movement.
Just as YHWW is married to Israel and former gentiles are grafted into the Israel of God\Commonwealth of Israel\COVENANTS (and all that includes) so to, we ought to follow that example. Anything else is ridiculous and is flatly rejected nationwide be “the Israel of God”
July 31st, 2008 at 11:34 am
Scot, if 80 percent of the earths cultures practice plural marriage, (see- http://www.bec.ucla.edu/polygyny3.pdf ) and you are handing them a bible full of stories of plural married patriarchs and kings plus regulations for plural marriage in the Torah, how are you going to sell monogamy-only to these plurally married folks especially since every monogamy story we have in the bible has its own set of problems?
July 31st, 2008 at 11:48 am
Just read the rest of Moshe’s\Marshall’s nonsense and felt it warranted a blistering response. Marshall has lost his way and needs to “teshuvah” or return and repent!
Will the Moshe please stand up, please stand up, please stand up!
Just another thought off topic…
Will all people in “christianity” be in the kingdom? No.
Will all people in Israel proper be in the kingdom? No.
So then, neither are “the church.” YHWH, defines the church and sets the time (feasts, shabbats) for the bride.
If everyone in “THE CHURCHES” will not be in the kingdom as “the church” why do we continue to propagate a falsehood by calling those gathering places “THE CHURCH” when by nature they cannot be. It is a lie and there can be no argument presented to the contrary. The adversary is the father of lies and the head of ALL world religions.
At any point we have the truth and the lie. If not all in christianity will be in the kingdom, then it cannot be church. The christian falsehood that the church began at pentecost is absurd and denied by the scriptures. True pentecostals observed the feasts and the sabbaths (weekly and annually) just as the early “church” did. And prais YHWH for that. If they had not been obedient and been in Jersualem for the feasts we might not have heard the gospel. On the mpount of transfiguration…we had the FULLNESS of the scriptures…Torah+Gospel+Prophet…in 90% of messianic congregations you have that every shabbat…Torah (first five books) then haftorah (writings\prophets) and brit chadashah (new testament) so that the fullness of the gospels are represented weekly.
Not just Torah…legalism
Not just New Testament apostolic writings…a branch disconnected from the root
But rather, they are tied together by the prophets (neviim\seers) who point the way…this is the mount of transfiguration scenario. Moses, Yeshua and Elijah.
The reason why 90% of christopaganism and judaism have no idea where we are in time is do to an unbalanced presentation of the scriptures…a result of unteachable, hardened hearts.
Salvation is a gift of YHWH, and Yahshua is the LAMB that got his head stuck in the thicket…provided by YHWH. Again, the father gets the glory…just as the Son insisted. Again, Moshe and Simon return.
July 31st, 2008 at 11:55 am
Scot, maybe Moshe K and Simon are doing nothing more than the great Patriarchs or Kings of Israel. They are teaching and talking about practicing nothing more than these great men practiced and taught, in exclusively regards biblical plural marriage. Now, if you are going to say that monogamy-only is mandated, and the only rule, this in itself is connected to the Roman Church historically. Are you suggesting we adopt Hebraic modes of worship in the Shul or Synagogue, but keep the Roman model exclusively in the home? I suggest you study this issue in depth before coming out against plural marriage, because there are many historical precedents that I believe you might not be aware of.
Sincerely,
HMI Admin, Gregory
ps. you can always email me at shul@hmisrael.net
I can also be reached by phone if you wish.
July 31st, 2008 at 12:06 pm
The constant appeal to the stoning argument is really absurd…it comes from a perspective that appeals to the “fairness” of stoning someone to death. I would venture to guess that you guys probably know that the Torah requires multiple witnesses to do that and they have to catch them in the act. Having said that, the “weighter” matter of the law is to forgive and not to judge. Although, the just judge is going to do just that when he returns…to aduterers as well as those who break the other commands. He will also destroy those whe “eat the flesh of the swine” and I can’t help but to think it is not because he so loathes pigs but rather because of a whole host of disobedience issues that go along with it. WE ought not judge others for what they eat. A man is worth more than what he puts in his mouth…nor does Peter’s vision have to do with persmission to eat unclean things or things that are not considered food. You can eat a booger if you want to but not everything eatable is considered food. Dietary law was because YHWH loves us and wants us to be healthy. Stoning a witch was to prevent the greater damage that would spread through the camp and again YHWH is looking out for us. He views us ALL as dead in sin, inside of a cursed vessel and provided the resurrection does not occur this body will be planted in the ground…so “the witch” and “the adulterer” are going to die anyway…along with us unless messiah returns and makes us “born again” and gives us a new body.
July 31st, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Disgusting is all I can say…the SEED is the WORD\Memra (aramaic) of God and is a seed of faith which has nothing to do with spreading zerah(H)\semen(Latin)\sperma(Greek) to further the “kingdom of Israel” this is reprobate theology and is detestable. Moshe explaining how this chick had “dreams of Him entering her” is SICK. It is as unimpressive as Todd Bentley worshipping angels and being snatched through the roof of “THE CHURCH” in a tractor beam, strapped to a cold table against his will in his “angelic vision.” I’m not trying to “sell” anything, although if I was it might be popular with the guys unless of course they have been married already. In which case they would know…one is perfect…right honey. Yes dear, I will cut the grass in a minute.
July 31st, 2008 at 12:22 pm
edible
July 31st, 2008 at 12:29 pm
genealogies are worthless…we are all born dead in sin and in need of a savior whether natural seed of Abraham or a wildbranch (gentile) we are both grafted in by the WORD|SEED|MEMRA of YHWH or Yahshua…into the ROOT or Commonwealth of Israel, no longer a stranger to the COVENTANTS of promise. Yeshua is building his kingdom which is “not of this world” (that includes the institution of christopaganism, judaism, Islam and the Church of Oprah). Are we to suggest that the Israel of God is put forward by Messiah doing the destable things Moshe and Simon suggest, it is damnable and I pray you repent, quickly.
July 31st, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Dirty old men…that sums it up.
July 31st, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Scott, are you purposely not addressing any of my specific issues?
July 31st, 2008 at 5:30 pm
HMI,
Valentinian was Eastern Orthodox, none of the churches I listed in my previous post are Eastern Orthodox, the Syrian Orthodox Church is Oriental Orthodox. Nevertheless my point was to show that the Aramaic reads exactly like the Greek, the Greeks did NOT mistranslate it.
Now I’ve got another kicker for you, you said:
“…We also see this etymologically, in the term “husband” which means master of the house from the words husbonda or husbondi in various languages, but the common denominator is the husband is the “bond man” over the wife. There is only 1 husband, but like servants, there can be more than 1 wife/servants biblically. Anything else violates a plethora of Torah regulations and scriptures…”
Oh give me a break you chauvenist! I’ll allow Rav Shaul to dispel this myth (and once again, I quote the Peshitta):
2. But because of fornication, let a man take a wife and a woman
take her husband.
3. Let a man bestow to his wife the love* that is owed; in this way
also, the woman to her husband.
* Most Greek mss. have “eunoia”-“eunoia” is “Good will” or “benevolence”; a few old mss. have simply, ofeilhn –“ofeilayn”- “what is owed”.
The Aramaic “Akhkhev” refers to the burning passion of love.
4. A wife is not authorized over her body, but her husband. In this
way also a man is not authorized over his body, but his wife. (1 Corinthians 7:2-4)
Now grasp this:
Whilst sex outside of marriage is forbidden sex within marriage is commanded.
Rav Shaul makes it clear that the wife has authority over her husband’s body and vice versa. My husband’s body belongs to me, I decide what he can do with. I say that he is not to have sex with anyone but me until I’m dead. And since sex is commanded in marriage that means he cannot take a 2nd wife! If he disregards my wishes then he commits adultery, do you get it now?
July 31st, 2008 at 7:13 pm
This is a HUGE distraction, and it saddens me to see this much division among our brothers and sisters. No matter how any of us differ on the definitions/interpretations at hand, what does it prove? ONLY that we are completely incapable of adhering to God’s laws (or even agreeing on what His laws are, for that matter), and are utterly in need of salvation that only Jesus Christ can offer.
Let’s all move on and focus on spreading His message of salvation through Christ alone…and that He is returning soon!
SS
July 31st, 2008 at 8:22 pm
Maryam says -
4. A wife is not authorized over her body, but her husband. In this
way also a man is not authorized over his body, but his wife. (1 Corinthians 7:2-4)
Now grasp this:
Whilst sex outside of marriage is forbidden sex within marriage is commanded.
Rav Shaul makes it clear that the wife has authority over her husband’s body and vice versa. My husband’s body belongs to me, I decide what he can do with. I say that he is not to have sex with anyone but me until I’m dead. And since sex is commanded in marriage that means he cannot take a 2nd wife! If he disregards my wishes then he commits adultery, do you get it now?
Maryam, so what if the wife disobeys this scripture and refuses her husband her body (assuming there is no illness, and there is no niddah) ?
What is your tangible solution to a wife who refuses even after counseling and months and months of it?
July 31st, 2008 at 9:36 pm
HMI,
That is a seperate issue. A women refusing to have sex and a man marrying another are altogether different.
August 1st, 2008 at 3:35 am
HMI/Gregory said:
Maryam, so what if the wife disobeys this scripture and refuses her husband her body (assuming there is no illness, and there is no niddah) ?
What is your tangible solution to a wife who refuses even after counseling and months and months of it?
Maryam says:
As Donna said above, that’s a separate issue. If your wife disobeys this command (or any other command) that is her business - that’s between her and YHWH - that does NOT mean that you are now free to break the 7th Commandment. Such a situation does NOT give you an excuse to take another wife/sexual partner - NOTHING DOES!
How about this scenario:
My husband gets into a terrible accident which leaves him paralyzed from the waist down for life. Because my husband is now incapable of “bestowing” the “akhkhev” which is “owed” to me, does that now mean that I’m free to take another sex partner? NO because he still has authority over my body!!! If I defy him (and YWH btw) and have sex with another man then I commit adultery.
August 1st, 2008 at 6:00 am
Maryam,
Exactly. and your example is a very real one that many loving couples have to deal with. If one spouse does not do their part, so be it. That’s between them and God. The other spouse must do what every single Christian person does. Die to self. Christianity 101. This guy is a pig, with the mind of a pig, plain and simple.
And by the way Gregory, you are also a liar. I haven’t banned a single word that you have said. Instead, I have allowed you to pollute this space with your presence while you continue to avoid the Scriptures that I cited. Truth triumphs over error sir and your case has been lost. The fact that you are so determined to argue a lost case shows a deep spiritual sickness on your part.
August 1st, 2008 at 7:56 am
Joel, I asked Maryam. I have discounted you because you obviously do not accept the scriptures Genesis-Deuteronomy with any kind of standing.
August 1st, 2008 at 8:21 am
And Maryam, that is incorrect. If a wife defrauds the marriage bed, its a covenant breach. At that point, the husband may put exodus 21:10 into practice.
All of these nebulous ideas that are spouted about dying to self etc is churchianese for denying the commandments and freedom in the Torah in order to uphold just what exactly? Human suffering and evil practice on the part of a spouse? Is this how your god deals with your sin? I have a problem with your “god.” No, thanks, I’ll take YHWH, the one who wrote those commandments from Genesis to Deuteronomy and His son Yahshua, who upheld those same commandments. You see, because there is “judgment” tempered rightly in His kingdom.
Now, as to the situation Maryam brought out. This is indeed a sad situation. I will answer you frankly. In such a case, the husband could still help his wife sexually. So, the example is faulty.
However, I am sure she will come back with a retort, regarding complete and utter paralyzing from the neck down, at which I will say that it depends on just what her desires are. I can say this. If I had a young wife that truly was tempted sexually, and I knew it, and I was the guy paralyzed, I would want her to have that need taken care of. I would love her enough to see that she found someone to help her. I would feel this way because in my love for her and because obviously, unless someone with the likes of Peter, James, or John was around to work a real healing (have not seen men like them in my life as of yet) , and my acceptance of that, she would also continue to care for me physically most likely because I had enough love for her to not make her “choose.”
You see, there is more love in that than the pious wretched faith that you are talking about Maryam. Far more love.
Now, there is an inherent hypocrisy in all of this entire discussion. You cited an example that I suspect is so outrageously minimal in the entire human experience simply because women are not “wired” the same as men, and most of them would not be thinking about anything but caring for their husbands needs should he bave the misfortune to have such an accident, that it really is straining a gnat.
However, you are all quite willing to swallow the camel, that of the hordes and hordes of men I have met and otherwise trapped in a-sexual prison houses in monogamous marriages because either their wives are just too self absorbed to do their “due benevolence” to their husbands, or they are in a power stuggle and are “mad” at their husbands, or they are just plain overcome by the filthy false “piety” of the church that has taught them sex is “dirty,” when in fact its not. Or a hundred other reasons.
So to me, what I see is a double standard to maintain a feminist power-base, that is unrighteous, that places very high numbers of men in subservient positions, testified by Scot Drydens “right honey. Yes dear, I will cut the grass in a minute” type of comments, and that makes this country RIPE for the skyrocketing divorce rates that plague us, and all we can do is sit around acting all self righteous, point fingers at the silly legalists, and laugh at their “obvious” ignorance of NT churchian theology.
Well, no, thank you again. But I will take TORAH. Because there is the right temper of judgment, and freedom contained therein. There is the right amount of checks and balances contained therein. And because it is clear that in Torah, the fathers are leading the home and the assembly (as if people could not figure that out from Paul, but oh well.. ) and mostly, because the Torah offers a real life tangible solution to every problem we can encounter. And plural marriage is one of those solutions in some circumstances.
August 1st, 2008 at 11:28 am
Just thought I would lighten it up a little bit…and that comment regarding my wife was a joke. My wife submits to me as often as can be expected considering she is trapped in a fleshly body that struggles with sin and rebellion. The idea that multiple wives avoids conflict and submission issues between husband and wives is absurd. I have been divorced and I was mostly to blame for it…and I don’t mind telling you that my wife and I have wonderful relations. I knew that my statement regarding the grass would ruffle your feathers before I entered it.
I have never had problems with my wife denying access to her body, ever…nor would I tolerate it. I know that must be hurtful and I believe it to be a breach of covenant if it persists as well….not entirely different than an idividual resisting the Holy Spirit entry into their vessel…for lack of a better analogy it is a form of witchcraft and is wicked. But the answer is not multiple wives in effort to circumnavigate the problem.
On another note: Just found this headline…Here comes the bride, beauty and the beast or however you want to look at it.
Syria’s grand mufti invites pope to Syria
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1215331168462&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter
paste it in the browser address bar
August 1st, 2008 at 11:35 am
Scott, you cannot come along and say “that is not the solution,” without making a ‘counter’ solution. So what is the solution?
I’ll bet you will say divorce is the ultimate solution.
August 1st, 2008 at 11:38 am
And Scott, you cannot come along and say “nor would I tolerate it,” after making a comment about cutting grass and “yes honey!” No sir, if you want to be taken seriously, you cannot come along and flash 1000 dollar bills, and THEN play with pennies.
So Scott, what is your solution to this problem?
August 1st, 2008 at 12:00 pm
I have nevr seen so much verbal rubbish come out of someones mind. HMI admin as far as I am concerned everything you say is irrelevant for the simple reason that you will not reveal your real name. Obviosuly you have something to hide most likely because you are afraid of the FBI coming to question you about being part of an illegal polygamous cult. as far as I am concerned. Polygamy is regarded by YHWH in the same manner He regards divorce. Not once in the Torah does YHWH promote polygamy or Divorce but he provides regulations for what should happen if someone ends up in such a position. One other thing can anyone name me one polygamous family in the Bible which was without infighting, jealousy and even murder all acused by polygamy. And before some asks the same of monogomous marriages yes it is true that they also have problem but there are still quite a lot of recorded harmonious ones. So HMI Admin reveal your self so that we can at least begin to take you seriously.
Peter
August 1st, 2008 at 12:06 pm
Peter, I gave you my name above if you bothered to read. Which I guess is asking a bit of you.
Signed,
Gregory Smith
HMI Admin
www.hmisrael.net
shul@hmisrael.net
517-579-3234
August 1st, 2008 at 12:07 pm
Also, Peter, quid pro quo. Are you playing with pennies too? What is your full name, and your phone number?
August 1st, 2008 at 12:33 pm
You should take another wife apparently if yours is not\was not yeilding to you…isn’t that what you want to hear? Again, my wife yeilds to me EVERY time! A wife is cut out of the side of a man, not out of the feet of a man so that he can walk all over her and a woman will WANT to submit to her husband if he leads in a firm yet patient and loving manner. The grass comment was for you my friend…and it apparently worked. Putty in the hands…it seems you are ate up with angst. Maybe you could or could have ask\asked your wife for forgiveness…I am not sure what dynamic is at play here but I am waiting for you to climb to the top of the bell tower at any minute and start picking people off.
August 1st, 2008 at 12:35 pm
She yeilds to me sexually everytime that is…of course we have our spats and arguments. I was not suggesting that she never gets stiff necked…that is delusional.
August 1st, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Scott, you are the one falling all over yourself to recover some shred of your manhood. I just asked you a simple question. What is your solution to the problem posed?
August 1st, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Well, before this degrades entirely, I would like to add my comments.
1. A man and a woman becoming one flesh does not mean intercourse. It means they are ….. to……. have…….. children, and is the first ever recorded statement about how DNA works. Get it now ?
2. Marriage is about Faithfulness, being true to one only, just as we are to be Faithful to our Lord Jesus. Bring someone/thing in between and you have placed that between you and your ……only………betrothed. You have made yourself an idolator and an adulteror.
OK, I’m done
God Bless You
David
August 1st, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Not falling alll over trying to rcover my manhood. My manhood comes from my relationship with Elohim and not from my relationship with my wife. Regardless of what events transpire in a relationship, identity comes from above. Agreed…this not healthy…end of discussion.
August 1st, 2008 at 1:12 pm
Well Gregory Smith you already know my full name if you bothered to read. Your main argument always seems to be questioning whether someone has read your piece or not so I see the tables are turned you didn’t seem to read my blog either. I also notice you refused to to respond to my point. This does not surprise me because when this was put to Simon altaf by at least 5 different people that I know of he could not answer it either. I wonder why you are still here as it has been proved time and again that when it comes to interpreting the Scriptures you seem to be illiterate. If you want to commit adultary go ahead. Until this polygamy issue came up one of the things that Simon Altaf, Moshe K etc use against Islam was Mohamed taking many wives and especially a 9 year old girl but now they say that this is fine. Infact Simon is now using Islam to defend some of these views. Moshe says in his book that taking young girls as your wife as long as it is done secretly as it is against the law in most countries. So not only is Moshe advocating polygamy but also peadophilia. In Northern ireland where I come peadophiles are regulary shot as a punishment. How sick can you and your so called cohorts be. YOU ARE NOT WORSHIPPING YHWH YOU ARE WORSHIPPING YOUR OWN SEXUAL DESIRES WHICH OBVIOUSLY YOU CANNOT CONTROL. Get a grip before your lose your salvation through your own selfish desires
August 1st, 2008 at 1:15 pm
David, what you wrote does not address the issue, aside from your inability to understand the “technical” definitions of idolatry and adultery. Not to mention the salient substance of a marriage biblically is the oneflesh bond, otherwise you could own a servant and be a master and have “faithfulness.” You could service your customers and have faithfulness.
This is a point of doctrine that I am trying to coax out of Scott, because for the most part, messianicdom has a very “messy” systematic theology when it comes to marriage. Frankly, truth be told, there is no system to it at all, its just a huge pile of chaos theory. Which is why people get so upset about this issue, their private interpretations and expectations are challenged by everyone with a different background.
The reason I suspect that Scott and Peter have bowed out of answering this pertinent question (like the Pharisees did with Yahshua many times),is because there is not anyone who will dare challenge the prevailing monogamy-only myth. Thus the entire theological engine you are trying to drive is missing a few pistons, it may drive, but it drive really roughly, as testified by the big cloud of smoke and bangs coming from the exhaust (those are all the divorces you are suffering). Now, you say I am evil, and I say your monogamy-only teaching is evil, and there must be 1 truth to all of this but I am willing only to address people who will stay on point, and discuss this rationally with biblical supports. I do not see you falling into that category David.
August 1st, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Mr Peter Stone, still not number? Oh well, you might be flogged forty minus one (Deut:25:3) for bearing false witness. I read the book. I did a small review on it. There are some problems in chapter 3 and 9 and I noted them to the author. However, nowhere in the book does it say men should marry underage wives. It actually discourages it. the point of the book is that men’s laws are fluid, and what one state says is underage another might not agree. What one culture, including how old Mary was (14 most likely) says about how old young ladies should be before marriage does not always agree with another. Honestly peter, thus twice you have stuck your foot in your mouth, so I have but one question for you. Have you, sir, even bothered to read the book?
August 1st, 2008 at 1:48 pm
By the way, I neglected to cite a support for the oneflesh bond being defined as sex. This is found in one of Paul’s letters - 1Cor:6:16: What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
Since there is no faithfulness between a man and a harlot, deductive reasoning then demands that the oneflesh Paul is talking about is simply “sex.”
Oneflesh is indeed the act of sexual intercourse. That is the imagery being presented.
August 1st, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Ah, so sad to see the hearts of women so neglected! I have yet to see anyone supporting polygamy who takes into consideration the needs of a woman’s soul as placed there by God.
And you men supporting it, don’t you dare assume you know and understand a woman’s deep desires, longings and needs. God knows it better than anyone (for both women and men), and that is why He put Adam and Eve together, one to one, and called it very good.
If you’re going to base your doctrine of polygamy on the actions of the patriarchs and kings, then why don’t you reinstate slavery as well? God didn’t openly condemn that, either, but we know that He had a better way from the beginning - one of freedom for all people. In the same way, we know He had a better way for marriage from the beginning (better than divorce and better than polygamy) - one man and one woman. It’s just that at that time the people’s hearts were hard, which we know because Jesus Himself said that.
I also have yet to see a response to what Joel and others have pointed out so often regarding Jesus’ discussion of divorce and marriage in general. If a man divorces his wife legally but is still married to her in God’s sight (due to the reason for divorce being inadequate) and remarries (essentially takes a second wife in God’s sight) and this is called adultery by Jesus, how in the world can a man who is still legally (and in God’s sight) married to his wife take a second wife without it being adultery as well? Impossible, unless there is hypocrisy involved.
I am so sorry for everyone involved. Aaliyah, you are in my prayers.
August 1st, 2008 at 2:58 pm
” I am willing only to address people who will stay on point, and discuss this rationally with biblical supports. I do not see you falling into that category David. ”
OK, I’m not done.
Is it not idolatrous to place someone/thing between yourself and the Lord ?
Is the marriage between a man and a woman a shadow of Christ and His Church ?
There is overwhelming Scripture saying these exact things.
It’s not just me saying this. And you sir, have failed to prove polygamy is Scripturally supported in this day and age. But you have shown your desire to use Scripture to support your own carnal desires, to the point of betrayal of even yourself. What part of your Faithfulness addresses carnal desire ? Scripture provided by you has only addressed carnal issues, not Spiritual ones like Faithfulness. You sir, are the lacking one in the area of ‘ technical definitions “. The one flesh bond is a shadow of Spiritual Love. There can only be ONE representation of that. And kids is the physical manifestation of that, within the bounds of monogamous marriage.
You are placing yourself as a carnal god-head with private interpretations from a by-gone era that the Lord Jesus Himself has corrected and qualified during His first advent. To ignore Him is to your own detriment. I pray for you and those like you.
But maybe I’m wrong and you should pray for me.
In that case, I should begin brainwashing my wife into allowing me to have another wife or two, maybe some servants too. I should start now as I’m quite sure this is going to be a lengthy process. Any advice in that area for me ? I’ve been to your site and found nothing there that would convince her.
God Bless
David
August 1st, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Mishael, I might agree with much of what you write, if indeed we were in Eden.
Should men go out seeking another wife carte blanche? no, probably not, and especially not if his first wife doesn’t want one. As for the discussion, I showed already that it is not the man taking the second wife that is the adultery part of it, this is proofed in the laws that the Messiah was speaking of from Genesis to Deuteronomy, which same laws define our terms, if we are honest. Rather, the adultery is in falsely putting away without a true and righteous cause. This then puts the wife in a position where she will inevitably seek out another man to have oneflesh’ness with, and his seed will “adulterate” or co-mingle (in successionary sense) with her rightful husband’s seed in her womb. This is the adultery. As Brad Scott the Hebrew roots teacher says (I am sure he would not agree with my use of his teaching for this point, but nonetheless its useful for teaching..) everything in the bible is biologically and agriculturally rooted. Adultery is biologically and agriculturally rooted. Understand nature, agriculture and biology, and you will understand what adultery is. So, if a man takes a second wife, and has oneflesh’ness with her, he is putting 1 type of seed into a barren field, which hopefully will bear fruit (children). There is no agricultural co-mingling of seeds in her, hence there is no adultery. Aside from this simple explanation, the context shows that Joel and others are wrong.
So for a woman’s perspective, her best argument is to say to her husband, “but I have a monogamy-only vow with you, and without my consent, you cannot break it without being a type of covenant breaker since you made an oath in our vows to be with me and me only.” If this wife is rendering her due benevolence, and is not in any way violating the covenant, the man would be in sin to take another wife.
However, if this woman, being without knowledge or understanding were to hear of her husband’s understanding of the true nature of adultery and that plural marriage is not a sin, and he says something alone the lines of “honey, I would really like another wife,” and she gets all uptight, and throws a pan at him and packs her bags and takes off, what she does is INADVERTENTLY open up a doorway for her husband to biblically/LEGALLY take another wife, EVEN IF she is against it, because at that point, she is separating from him, and he is without proper marital rights demanded by Paul in the verses Maryam on this forum so succinctly quoted. (1Cor:7:3)
That is my mind is what, in some respect, has happened (along with some other thoughts I doubt are pertinent to share) with the fellow that became the object of so much scorn and anger on this blog.
You see wives, if you want your husband to be “locked in” do you duty, be a good wife, hang with him, don’t tempt him. Those are the words your mothers would tell you 100 years ago, oh but how FAR WE HAVE FALLEN today in this cursed modern generation since I see none of this exhortation put into practice in the churches or the messianic synagogues -( The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,) Ti:2:3,4
I truly and honestly feel for a wife that is having this forced on her. And I feel for every woman that has had to endure divorce.
And you know where the blame lies?
Does it lie with you woman?
no.
Does it lie with you oh man?
no.
Rather YHWH, blames the LEADERS for forsaking his commandments in this regard -
Isa:3:12: As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.
All of these messianic teachers and church leaders. THEY are the blame. They are the ones that have ‘lost the plot,” as sister Aaliyah lamented (wrongly) about her husband. THEY are the ones who will stand in account of their teaching that is contributing to divorce and suffering in marriages by not enforcing and sustaining the true and proper headship of husbands in the home, the rendering of due benevolences WITH CONSEQUENCES if their is failure due to rebellion, and demanding that husbands then render the three rights due to their wives. YES indeed, lament for the judgment of those leaders.
So, sister Mishael, I am not without feeling and depth for the woman’s perspective at all. If you knew me personally, you would see that I highly regard women and their rights and call on men to love them.
But our problems are larger than interpersonal. They are SYSTEMIC and I am speaking on that level primarily now.
August 1st, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Missed your post, Gregory, but lets look at your Scripture in context.
1Cr 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make [them] the members of an harlot? God forbid.
1Cr 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
1Cr 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
This is all about idolatry, first of all. It is represented by a carnal man, that would be you, entering into a physical relationship that has no meaning other than carnal, that would be you again. This harlot is paid for sex, probably has been paid for it before, and probably will be paid for it again. This has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage. This is an empty relationship, Spiritually dead, no one Lord involved. And there is another harlot right next door when you come back. Odd that you should pick a Scripture that says exactly what I have been trying to say, that this is a Spiritual matter that you have made carnal. I should have went there first. Just proves to me you have missed the point about Faithfulness to the one true God. Thanks anyway, but I already know what you are going to say, and it doesn’t change a bit what I am saying.
And who is to say that a man and an harlot wouldn’t conceive a child. Seems to happen all the time and might be a good explaination for another horrendous sin, abortion. How convenient for them.
Just for kicks, lets look at the rest of the chapter.
1Cr 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Cr 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
God Bless
David
August 1st, 2008 at 3:51 pm
Can you address the email sent to Aaliyah?
Would it be okay for a man to curse his wife over this issue?
August 1st, 2008 at 8:27 pm
Donna, I do not have much experience with cursing people, so I am not really qualified to answer that.
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:39 am
All I can say is that I am very blessed to be married to a man who loves and respects me as a person. He doesn’t want me to be a doormat, slave, or servant. He wants me for a friend.
August 2nd, 2008 at 6:48 am
Donna, He sounds very Christ-like.
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:40 pm
HMI,
You still at it?
Ya know you never answered my question concerning 1 Timothy 3:2 nor any of my other questions, matter of fact I don’t believe you’ve answered anybodies questions so far, whats up with that?
Your whole arguement has been weighed, balanced and found seriously wanting!
You sir need to repent and repent deeply, it sounds like you strayed from the path a long time ago, honestly, I doubt you were ever on it.
The woman is the most beautiful thing God ever created, she was a gift to man from God himself! And how dare you destort her role and purpose in God’s master plan by treating her like shes mere cattle and property!
How dare you treat that wich Christ has sanctified and treat it as common or unclean. How dare you distort the clear testimony of divine scripture that marriage is between one man and one woman to satisfy your own lusts and desire to rule over and dominate the very one God gave to you as a gift, all
because mommy didn’t feed you enough cherrios when you were a kid!!!
You sir need to be taught a lesson in purity, in faithfulness, in stewardship, and most importantly in covenant!!!
Oh, you may in fact be married, but its obvious that it means nothing to you, and heres how I know, because…
You have no DEPTH…
You have no MEANING…
You have no WORD…
You have no TRUTH…
And you have no BLOOD… IN YOUR COVENANT!!!
Have a nice day.
Joel, Scot, and Donna I wouldn’t even bother giving this fella any more of your time, its obvious it’ll be wasted…
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Joel,
This is your website and I enjoy it and appericiate the annointing on your life to do what God has called you to do, so if I was to harsh I apologize TO YOU.
I just have no respect for that kind of stinking thinking, not only do I have a wife, but a one year old daughter. So this subject wich is bottom line an a attack on women, gets me stirred up…
But, there is a fine line between rejecting ideas without rejecting people…
August 2nd, 2008 at 11:02 pm
1st Timothy passages can be interpreted to say husband of “a” wife. So it could be that Paul is saying the these men have to “at least” be married. Mia, the Greek word used can mean the indefinite article, and Khad, the Aramaic word can also mean an indefinite article “a.” This interpretation agrees with the examples we have throughout the rest of the bible of men leading and having multiple wives as well, including Moses who had 2 wives. It also agrees with the context, which says that the way to evaluate a man as to whether he is worthy to lead the assembly, is how he manages his family at home. So, if such is the case with monogamy, how much MORE for a polygamous man if indeed he manages his home well, should he not be allowed to serve in the offices of leadership.
Now, if you don’t like that interpretation, and would like to make some more ad hominem attacks Adam, feel free. I am sure you will feel better and a little more self righteous.
HMI Admin
Gregory
August 3rd, 2008 at 1:34 am
I never realized the depth of the twisting that can be done to justify ones lust.
August 3rd, 2008 at 6:21 am
HMI Gregory said:
1st Timothy passages can be interpreted to say husband of “a” wife. So it could be that Paul is saying the these men have to “at least” be married. Mia, the Greek word used can mean the indefinite article, and Khad, the Aramaic word can also mean an indefinite article “a.”
Maryam says:
In 99% of cases “mia/khad/echad” means “one” in the exclusively singular sense as in “just one” or “only one”. This is true in both the ancient and modern dialects of Greek, Aramaic & Hebrew. I find no reason in the context of 1 Timothy to apply the 1% exception.
And FYI Moses did NOT have two wives as Andrew Gabriel Roth has cleary proven in his rebuttal of this heresy which Jeff above provides the link. I’ll quote this him:
“But didn’t Moshe have two wives himself?
Miriam and Aaron began to talk against Moses because of his Cushite wife, for he had married a Cushite. “Has YHWH spoken only through Moses?” they asked. “Hasn’t he also spoken through us?” And YHWH heard this. (Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.)
At once YHWH said to Moses, Aaron and Miriam, “Come out to the Tent of Meeting, all three of you.” So the three of them came out. Then YHWH came down in a pillar of cloud; he stood at the entrance to the Tent and summoned Aaron and Miriam. When both of them stepped forward, he said, “Listen to my words: “When a prophet of YHWH is among you, I reveal myself to him in visions, I speak to him in dreams. But this is not true of my servant Moses; he is faithful in all my house. With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of YHWH. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?” The anger of YHWH burned against them, and he left them. (Numbers 12:1-9)
When polygamists try to prove their case scripturally, this is often one of the first places they come to. Their argument goes something like this:
1. Moshe only has one wife listed by name, Tzipporah, the daughter of Jethro.
2. Tzipporah’s death is not recorded anywhere from the time she marries Moshe to the opening moments of this verse and therefore she must be alive at this time.
3. Now, instead of his Midian (Arabian) wife, Moshe has taken a total foreigner from Cush, which can mean Ethiopia.
4. Therefore, Moshe has two wives at the same time: Midianite Tzipporah and this unknown Cushite wife here.
There are a few fatal flaws to this sham argument: First of all, Tzipporah’s death is unrecorded, period! Therefore, if this Cushite is in fact another woman, there is no reason to suppose that Tzipporah has not passed on, especially given the fact that Moshe is already well past 80 at this point. Secondly, Cush was not confined to Ethiopia: Numbers 12:1-9. MIRIAM’S AND AARON’S SEDITION.
1. an Ethiopian woman–Hebrew, “a Cushite woman”–Arabia was usually called in Scripture the land of Cush, its inhabitants being descendants of that son of Ham accounted generally a vile and contemptible race the part of Miriam and Aaron against Moses was the great change made in the government by the adoption of the seventy rulers [Numbers 11:16]. Their irritating disparagement of his wife (who, in all probability, was Zipporah [Exodus 2:21], and not a second wife he had recently married) arose from jealousy of the relatives, through whose influence the innovation had been first made (Exodus 18:13-26), while they were overlooked or neglected. Miriam is mentioned before Aaron as being the chief instigator and leader of the sedition. (Jamieson, Fausset & Brown, Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible)
As a result, the much stronger case can be made that this is simply Tzipporah being called a derogatory name. Moshe’s sister was considered a prophetess and his brother Aaron was high priest. They were clearly used to running the show and being the stars of it. But now, although the inciting incident is not recorded, it is easy to see how Aaron and Miriam would be more jealous of Tzipporah than they would against some pretty young thing that just came on the scene without power; reason being, Tzipporah’s father is also a kohen of the most high El (Exodus 3:1), and Mount Sinai where they all received the Ten Commandments was in her backyard! It is certainly the case that Jethro gave Moshe counsel that Moshe did not take from others (Exodus 18:14-27), thus perhaps nursing a long-standing jealousy between the two religious groups attached to Moshe that served YHWH. Whichever the case may be, this text does not prove Moshe was a bigamist. One can only arrive at such a conclusion through a series of false assumptions and erratic leaps away from logic.”
Source: http://www.therefinersfire.org/multiple_wives_myth.htm
Now I challenge you to find me an example in the Torah or the rest of the Tanakh where a priest or the High Priest practiced polygamy.
August 3rd, 2008 at 12:08 pm
I’m self righteous?
Okay man, you win, have as many wives as you want, whatever floats your boat…
August 3rd, 2008 at 12:26 pm
Maryam, I have read Roth’s explanation of the why he thinks Miriam and Aaron were angry. There are some problems with it. First, the assumption that plural marriage is sinful hampers true exegesis, since its clearly regulated in the Torah Moshe penned. Now, Roth is trying to make the Cushite woman = Zipporah the Midianitess. I kind of laughed because the methodology that Roth resorts to in his sad example of identifying people groups in the middle east is very much like what the KKK Arayan’s do when they claim that Ruth was not “really” a moabitess and she was really just part of “Israel.” (They think that blacks, latinoes, and other coloured peoples of the earth descend from the ’seed of satan,” bolstered by a localized flood and they consider a black person marrying a white person a high abomination since all blacks and other coloureds of the earth should be either killed or subjugated depending how extreme they are.. etc etc) Secondly, its very ironic, that “you” maryam, in our discussion on this Blog site are ironically in the same place as Miriam back in the wilderness. You are “mad” as a hatter that Simon Altaf is taking a second wife. Now, see, the thing that has been is the thing that will be, and there is nothing new under the sun. Hence, solomonic cyclical wisdom oracles can help us explain these passages in my mind and YHWH with his sense of humour lets it happen before our very eyes. Frankly, I think that Miriam was mad that Moshe was taking a second wife (since some women don’t like that idea, not one bit,… right Maryam?) AND she was angry that this woman was a “black” woman. By the way, have you ever read Jasher? It talks about Moses spending quite a bit of time in the Cushite kingdom. Perhaps it would do you well to read that Book Maryam. YATI has a great copy in their store.
Anyway, what do I think of Roths eisogesis? Well, the ONUS is on him to prove that these two women are the same women. The ONUS is on him to prove that “Zippy” was dead before Moshe took this woman.
Yes, frankly, when Roth can assume the responsibility of making this outrageous argument at variance with the entire example and context of scripture regarding all the examples of plural marriage and leadership in the bible, I will not longer consider Roth to be jamming his square peg of his silly “argument” into the “round hole” of Scripture.
So, until then, I will keep my present belief.
HMI Admin
August 4th, 2008 at 1:41 am
Gregory, thank you for your response.
I am sorry to see that that is what you believe, though. Why settle for something less than how things were in Eden? No, we can’t get that perfection in this fallen world; but if we aim for the highest, with God giving us His strength, we’ll reach much further than if we accepted something less. We aim for our relationships with God to be like it was, do we not? So why must our relationships with others, particularly our spouses, not receive the same effort?
It makes me sad to see women compared to “fields” - I’ve heard that comparison before somewhere else. Woman’s primary purpose isn’t to be “seeded,” although bearing children is something she is specialized to do. She was made because Adam was incomplete without her.
I understand the point you’re making in your comparison, but I personally think it’s ridiculous. I still see you equating divorce with adultery rather than adultery _possibly_ leading from divorce (if _either_ of them remarry, the man or the woman). I still see you laying the potential for adultery only on the woman and another man, not the man involved in the original marriage (even if he were to marry another woman). This is very hypocritical and not biblical, whatever you may say.
I am sorry you feel as you do.
I don’t doubt that you care for women, but I don’t believe you understand what sort of damage this system you support really does to them.
August 4th, 2008 at 9:53 am
Whatever else is going on here, I have to ask myself if it is honoring one’s husband and working toward reconcilliation to call him names in a public forum? I would not do it. I would honor my head the same way I expect him to honor his head, YHWH.
It is not good to judge others and demean them with words like “horrible people” either. While my heart goes out to Aaliyah Altaf, I think it would be better to tone down the words some and to be careful to not insult Simon Altaf. We are called to submit, and if she feels that she cannot submit in this, she should be prayerful and not mean-spirited.
I find Gregory’s posts to be well-thoughtout and informative. And I must say to Mishael that there is nothing damaging about any type of marriage.
On another note, it does not matter how one twists Scripture, it is not egalitarian. Women have their place — which is not necessarily at home birthing children and dusting. We get off on wrong interpretations when we attempt to interpret the “Old Testament” through the eyes of the “New Testament” rather than using the “Old Testament” as the foundation, and therefore the route, for interpreting the “New Testament.”
In other words, Yeshua did not die so you can have that $2.99 ham and egg special at the Waffle House.
czarina
August 4th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
Czarina,
Have you ever been in a polygamist marriage? If not then how do you know if it is or is not damaging? The few times we see it in scripture is has lead to sin and problems. Given that can we say without a doubt that polygamy is healthy for women and children?
Abraham’s polygamy still has far reaching problems associated with it. Solomon was lead to worship other gods through his many wives. David committed murder to have one more wife.
I do not see the upside of it. Leah was the least favored. Look at what her sons did to Joseph, Rachel’s son, and sent him into slavery in Egypt. This caused the whole nation to be enslaved for several hundred years.
How can a man love a women and desire another? The very nature of marriage means that the two women are somehow joined together in the flesh. And yet competition is almost guaranteed. Look at how Leah had to bride Rachel into allowing Jacob to give her breeding rights? Does not this competition lead to sinning and hatred between the women’s children?
Forcing a women into this type of situation only leads to spiritual tyranny on the part of the man. If the women complains she is called rebellious. How can anyone say a man can love a women and so abuse her? Is the husband not called to love his wife as CHRIST LOVED THE CHURCH and GAVE HIMSELF UP?
Is the husband giving up his desire to have sexual intercourse with another women? In a polygamous relationship, the answer is no, because he has to have sex with both women. The very nature creates an abusive environment for the women and children, that no amount of justification will nullify.
August 4th, 2008 at 9:56 pm
czarina,
Ultimately Gregory was not able to respond to the words of Jesus other than to say that His words do not really even exist. Beyond that Scripturally everything that he brought up was responded to quite reasonably. When I see someone so vehemently disregarding the clear meaning of Scripture, I see the same cultist mentality that I have seen in Jehovah’s Witnesses and several other cults. Reason has little effect. I pray that Gregory and his family are able to find their way out of this cult. And I pray that you are able to escape this cult as well.
Bless you, Joel
August 5th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
Donna:
I am the first wife in a polygynous marriage, so I think I am quite able to comment, more so than any other poster on this list, about what it is like for women and children in a plural marriage.
First and foremost, plural marriage was not forced on me. The idea on this list that ALL women are forced into polygamy is ridiculous. I am a second generation first wife. I initially did not plan to follow my mother’s example. I simply did not think in terms of poly being an option as there were no men beating down my parents’ door or my door looking for a plural wife.
Although I enjoyed my childhood and had a far happier childhood than most of the people I meet. However, trying to mother, go to school, and work is tedious and stretches one too far. And since I am passionate about my work, I love working, and YHWH has blessed me with the ability to make gobs of money that our family uses to support ministries, I knew I would always work. (Look at the woman in Proverbs 31, she was a working wife and mother, as was Devorah, and the woman who was the builder of cities, these woman were also called to work outside their homes by and for YHWH.)
Plural marriage has allowed me to have a high power career and to have my children raised by people I love and home schooled by people whose skills I trust. Additionally, If you want learn to operate in the fruits of the Ruach HaKodesh, particularly that one about self-control, then plural marriage is a great training ground. It also allows me to set an example for my children about living out the Torah in one’s life daily.
My heart going out to Aaliyah Altaf has nothing to do with her not wanting Simon to take another wife, my heart goes out to her because she has given up much in her walk (Isaiah: Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee) by holding on to anger and hatred. It is hard to be so angry that one mocks people calling them heartless, horrible and lunatics. That level of anger robs one of peace. I hate that for Mrs. Altaf. I should also add that Aaliyah Altaf was one of the very people she is mocking. The other women at the conference were dressed just as Aaliyah Altaf was dressed, but not nearly as expensively. They wore headcoverings as Aliyah Altaf did, they wore long skirts or dresses, as Aaliyah Altaf did…I don’t see where the accusation that these people looked ridiculous comes from as they looked very much the same as Aaliyah Altaf. I should add that no one was anywhere near as beautiful or carried themselves with the same grace as Aaliyah Altaf. She is really quite young and beautiful.
However, I do understand that anger can sometimes lead to hyperbole, and I am fine if Aaliyah Altaf wishes to poke a bit of fun to release some angst.
As for being in a cult, I did not meet Rabbi Moshe until last month. The conference in Newberry was the first place I saw Rabbi Moshe. However, I have been a plural wife for years. All Rabbi Moshe did was to simply say that it was not Torah to keep out plural families or to force them to lie or hide. Period. He did teach that PM is not wrong. I am still waiting for someone to give me a Scripture that states that plural marriage is forbidden. No one has evr done this, nor do I expect them to be able to.
Joel, since I am not a member of any cult, but have done some study on cults, I have to ask how your ministry is different in how it operates from the operations of Rabbi Moshe’s ministry? hmmm? Me thinks this cult comment might just be the pot calling the kettle black.
August 5th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Czarina,
If you are a polygamist in the USA you are breaking the law. After all the publicity of the Mormon cult I would like to see all polygamists jailed. We are called to obey the laws of the State provided they do not conflict with the commandments of God. The polygamy law is not a commandment in the Torah. Because it is not a commandment, forbidding the practice is not in conflict with Torah. Therefore you are obligated to uphold the laws of the land in this instance.
I can only guess at this point why you want to be a polygamist in this country, but it would appear your desire for gobs of money and a high power career. while you have your servant do the work at home that by rights is your responsibility.
Is not Aaliyah being forced to do something she does not want? How many women in Moshe’s group are being forced into a polygamist marriage? In effect being forced to break the law? If you want to willingly break the law of the land what will become of your children if you are put in jail?
The long term effects as I pointed out in my other post is rife within the polygamist communities. From Abraham on down to our present day. The second or more wives do not have the legal protections that a first wife has. So, in that you are not considering the needs of your “sister wife”. Is your choice for selfish gain?
August 5th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
First, polygamy is not against the law in the state where I live. Therefore, your whole argument about it being against the law is null and void. Second, I have blocked the doors of abortion clinics, and that is not a requirement of Torah, but there is a 15-year-old alive today because I did that — I’m pretty certain she is grateful — oh, that’s right, she actually wrote a letter that said she was grateful in All About Issues. Third, Damn Rahab for saving those spies. Curse Esther for going before the King without being called…
Fourth, straw man argument, Donna. Let us also remember that the Supreme Court said that Texas was out of line and to return the children to their parents. The State of Texas then went into hyperdrive making various PR statements to turn the minds of folks who do not research their news and swallow it like pablum fed to them by the nanny nation.
Fifth, and last, the man to whom I am married is disabled. That happens in monogamist’s marriages also — a drunk driver, a stroke, a fall from a ladder, that is all it takes to change a woman’s world forever. Are you saying that all women with disabled husband’s should sit around and collect welfare? Well, regardless, that is not allowed in my state, so it’s a darn good thing I can make buckets of money isn’t it?
I am pretty certain that your church is not supporting any poor families like the early church did. However, my family is supporting a woman who cannot work because her child is mentally ill. When you are in line with Torah, come and judge me…but don’t fire your guns at me until you have all the facts and until you are walking a mighty tight Torah walk.
By the way, no woman is forced into polygamy. Every woman can say no. All it takes is a pair of feet. I don’t think that a wise man marries another wife without the full support of his first wife. That is not Torah-based patriarchal marriage. that is serial monogamy.
August 5th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
Don’t worry your pretty little head, Donna, legal protections are called Kettubah’s or “contracts.” But I depend on YHWH to take care of me and we make certain we are not storing up the money HE entrusted to us to care for others since the churches are dropping the ball. And since you do not know what types of agreements or “contracts” we have signed with subsequent wives, you are assuming I am not caring for their futures, aren’t you? Assumption based on facts not in evidence…
I make plenty of money for them to live quite well until their children are well out of school. Praise YHWH. I can look at my life and see how YHWH has rained down his approval on us by raining blessing after blessing on us. Baruch Hashim YHWH. Just as my earthly father is rich from YHWH’s blessings and has been greatly rewarded for being a husband to the husbandless and a father to the fatherless, and in doing so both my earthly father and the man to whom I am married have modeled YHWH’s provision and love to their families.
August 5th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Czarina, that’s wonderful that you and your family do so much to help others.
There are certainly benefits to having a bigger family - more hands to help.
But that doesn’t make polygamy right. If a homosexual couple were to be equally helpful to those in need, would that mean their relationship choice was equally “right” and “good” and “healthy”? Not if we believe what God says about it (directly and indirectly). Nothing damaging in any marriage? I beg to differ. There are plenty of abusive or sexually perverted marriages in the world that are extremely damaging both physically and spiritually. Satan always perverts and attempts to destroy those things which God made for good - like marriage.
You sing the praises of living with people who all work together to raise a godly family and develop the fruit of the Spirit. Why must this primarily be in a multiple-marriage relationship? As the Church, we are meant to be a Family to each other, and such close-knit relationships can be found in godly friendships with other families. Multiple marriages are not needed for these benefits, and I do honestly believe they are ultimately harmful in one way or another. More importantly, I believe it is a perversion (deviation from the natural) of what God originally created us for.
I know that the Church, particularly in the West, is not doing all it should be doing. It has become quite complacent and self-focused in many areas. But this does not mean we should join in with Satan’s efforts to break it into more and more pieces and keep it ineffective. We must fight for the unity and love of our Church Family.
August 5th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Wow !??!
What a mess…
August 5th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Yeah, what Mishael said…
August 5th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
Czarina,
Yes, polygamy is against the law. It is called bigamy.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Bigamy-Legal-in-the-United-States?&id=1376589
Therefore your straw man argument does not hold water.
I help take of 2 poor families financially speaking. I give them thousands of dollars every year. Does this mean I should make them into my servants or slaves? Does this mean my husband should marry these women? Please! Do not take me for a fool.
Justifying polygamy by claiming that you are taking care of this women and her handicapped child is bogus. Your husband is not taking care of his first wife, how can he take care of a second? He is not, you are. More power to you. But, please dispense with the holier then thou attitude that somehow this polygamous relationship you have is not adultery. You could have just as easily given this women and child a home without the adulterous relationship. The bottom line is- It was advantageous financially speaking for you to have this women think she is married to your husband. She is most likely not being compensated anywhere near what she is actually worth. She is worth far more then any mere allowance she might be given. And that to my way of thinking is taking advantage of this poor women.
August 5th, 2008 at 9:26 pm
Donna:
Are you on the olympic team for jumping to conclusions? Once again, you made an assumption based on facts not in evidence. The woman with the mentally ill child is NOT one of my co-wives. She is simply a woman who is in need of support and if the “church” is being obedient, she would be supported without having to depend on welfare…However, the church dropped the ball, ergo, she was in need of support which we gave and continue to give. This would not be a good basis for marriage, dear one.
How is the hubster not taking care of his first wife? Would he be like the husband in Proverbs 31 who was not taking care of his wife? That horrid example of manhood was “…known at the city gates when he sits with the leaders of the land.” (v. 23). The problem with not doing one’s own research is that one gets bad info, like the current fundy christian idea that ALL women should stay at home and be supported when that is not the reality of Scripture.
Sigh…Onward through the fog. If plural marriage is adultry then explain the following verses:
YHWH did NOT think that David was wrong in his taking of more than one wife. Instead, YHWH expressly states that David had been “right” or “honorable” in HIS eyes and had done no wrong except for the matter of Uriyah the Hitti. So, sleeping with Bathsheba and killing Uriyah were wrong, but not taking other wives. 1 Kings 15:5 - “For David had done what was right from ADONAI’s perspective; he had not turned away from anything he had ordered him to do, as long as he lived, except in the matter of Uriyah the Hitti.” What? David had not turned away from anything YHWH had required as long as David lived? Well, what about those “extra” wives? Did YHWH forget to list that in HIS inspired W-rd?
Try to follow here, because this one gets even scarier, YHWH HIMSELF gave David wives — and admitted that HE would have given David even more wives if David had asked. Now, this either destroys your argument, or you have to say that YHWH sinned. Personally, I would not go down the road to saying that YHWH sinned, but that’s just me. 2 Samuel 12:7-8 - “Here is what ADONAI, the God of Isra’el says: ‘I anointed you king over Isra’el. I rescued you from the power of Sha’ul. I gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives to embrace. I gave you the house of Isra’el and the house of Y’hudah. And if that had been too little, I would have added to you a lot more.” Imagine that, YHWH would have given David more wives. HE even said so in HIS inspired W-rd.
Now this is where the clarity comes in for my people. YHWH regulates polygamy. Yes, wonderful and true, YHWH regulates polygamy. This means that how wives are treated, and inheritance, etc. are regulated by Torah. Exciting, isn’t it? Exodus 21:10-11 - “If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.” Now I know that even you, Donna, are not going to go so far as to say that YHWH regulates sin. TGherefore you have to accept that plural marriage is an acceptable form of marriage.
Mishael. This is where we stand. There is no arguing with Scripture. If you can find some scripture to back up your views that does not have to be twisted to fit, I am happy to review it. Otherwise, we will simply have to agree to disagree.
I am happy and blessed. Despite being a huge disappointment to Donna because she isn’t right about me “taking advantate of this poor woman.” Simple isn’t it — read the Scriptures in context and interpret the “New Testament” on the foundation of the “Old Testament.” It means being intellectually honest and keeping with Orthodoxy and that can be hard, but it is worth it. After all, the early church had polygamists. It was not until Rabbi Gershwin’s ruling that the Ashkenazi Jews gave up polygamy. It was after that time that the early church gave up polygamy.
It is very important to read the W-rd in context, with a good grasp of history, or a good history book. I am more and more grateful every day for the constant encouragement I got from my Dad to never stop learning, and to always be intellectually honest and not fall into sloppy debate or fact twisting.
Adam, now that you have the Scriptures, do the research. I expect that women will attack a woman who admits to living happily in a polygynous marriage by choice. It shocks them and threatens their worlds. It brings up the true struggle that is under the surface in all of these writings. It brings up that we as wives do not own a husband. The men to whom we are married belong to YHWH. And since these men belong to YHWH they do not have to bow down and worship us, they have to listen and worship YHWH. But I digress, Adam, I expect more from men since they need to be quite well informed to lead their families and to do so they must “Study to shew thyself approved unto YHWh, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
May you all be blessed. And, Donna, may YHWH show you the truth of HIS W-rd and give you peace.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:00 pm
Czarina,
Please Read this!
Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except [it be] for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Mar 10:11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from [her] husband committeth adultery.
What part of marrying another women the man commits adultery against the 1st wife, do you not understand?
I was a childhood victim of sexual assault, so yeah, the polygamist cults of Mormonism and Islam are extremely troublesome to me. This apparently inherent abuse does create problem for many children.
What part of “breaking the law” do you not understand?
Here is a quote;
This act made polygamy illegal in the United States in general and particularly in Utah where the main Mormon settlements were.
Taken from this site;
http://ezinearticles.com/?Bigamy-Legal-in-the-United-States?&id=1376589
August 5th, 2008 at 10:27 pm
Czarina,
Here is some background on how 1st century Judaism felt about polygamy.
3. Among the Jews, it was not accepted by the prestigious school of Hillel (above), nor by the strict Dead Sea Sect (Qumran), and was not widely practiced, esp. among the rabbi’s:
“But even if polygamy was permitted by tannaitic halakhah, other halakhic systems counseled otherwise. During the Second Temple period, monogamy was preferred even on the conceptual plane by, above all, the Dead Sea Sect whose halakhah explicitly prohibited polygamy. In the reworked version of the statutes of the king in the Temple Scroll, it is stated: “he shall not take another wife in addition to her, for she alone shall be with him all the days of her life” (LVII 17-8). In the Damascus Covenant, criticism is leveled against the ‘builders of the wall’ (Pharisees?) in the following terms: ‘they shall be caught in fornication twice; once by taking a second wife while the first is still alive…’ [HI:JWGRP:85]
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/polygame.html
So, yes, Jesus Idea on marriage is one man to one women, period. It was not some polygamist idea, that the divorcing of a women was adultery. But rather by Marrying another women while the first wife was alive and the marriage not tainted by an adulterous wife. Do your own studying.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:39 pm
Donna, Donna, Donna…
Well, the child sexual abuse comment does explain the anger.
First, why would anyone get marriage license after marriage license? This is silly. First, because other than allowing a spouse to get health insurance or to inherit directly, there is no reason for one. Nowhere in the W-rd is there a requirement for a marriage license from the state. Render to the government what is governments but render to YHWH what is YHWH’s. In other words, marriage is under YHWH’s domain. Even the Xtian church is getting to the point where they realize that there is a real benefit to not having government in marriage. The only way one breaks the law is if one gets a marriage license for each marriage. Why would anyone do that?
All of the scriptures that you posted are well and good and they apply to each of a man’s marriages — they do not limit a man to one marriage.
Donna — all you are going to do is get angrier if you stay in this discussion. Why don’t we just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
By the way. We DO NOT BELIEVE IN MARRYING CHILDREN. That is simply not okay.
As for Utah and bigamy…well, dear one, the states of AZ and UT recently said they were not going to prosecute or persecute polygamists as long as there are no other laws broken.
May YHWH bless you.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:51 pm
Czarina,
So, then your husband is not legally married to the “second wife”. And this is not adultery? you just keep digging deeper and deeper. With your own testimony, you have lost my respect. Oh, just for your information, some states consider common law marriage to be real. So wether or not the state prosecutes the polygamy is meaning-less, you are still teaching your children to break the law.
August 6th, 2008 at 6:32 am
Czarina:
I still cannot understand how anyone can get past these verses. Would you please walk through my points below and explain specifically at which point you feel I am misunderstanding and or misinterpreting the words of Yeshua and how? Thank you, Joel
And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. Mar 10:11
Whosoever shall put away his wife, except [it be] for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery. Mat 19:9
1 Jesus is saying that divorce for illegitimate, selfish or just plain old lame reasons is not legitimate in the eyes of God. It does not dissolve the man’s responsibilities before God.
2 If a man divorces his wife other than for fornication, they are still married in the eyes of God.
3 If the man is still married to his first wife and marries a second wife, he is practicing polygamy
4 Jesus calls this adultery.
August 6th, 2008 at 6:50 am
No, Joel, I won’t get into a debate with a man — it’s unseemly and craven. Add to that that you are determined to be wrong. Thus, you have made yourself irrelvant in any meaningful discussion.
August 6th, 2008 at 7:06 am
Czarina, I have never heard so much rubbish in all my life. First of all Joel is not irrelavent sense he runs this site and you are on in so in fact you are irrelavant if you want to take that view. Also if your view is that you should not debate with a man then again what are you doing here maybe you should be at home talking to your fellow adultarers. In fact if you read Torah correctly polygamy is much like divorce in that YHWH never promotes it but he does make allowances if you fall into sin. So why would you settle for less than YHWH’s ideal and follow after your husbands lustful desire for more sex. And please don’t come out with the rubbish that Polygamy is not just about sex of course it is. So before you make such remarks please look at your own sin.
August 6th, 2008 at 9:08 am
polygamy is not about sex.
August 6th, 2008 at 9:32 am
So you are telling me that a husband only has sex with his first wife in a polygamous marriage but doesn’t have sex with his others.
August 6th, 2008 at 11:01 am
Joel and Peter, you are still not getting it. Polygamy nowhere includes the putting of one wife away, so those verses you are trying to make apply to polygamy are useless in this debate. Those verses are about divorce, and polygamy is not about divorce. It is about marriage.
And if you think your “j-zeus” has a different definition of adultery than what the “real” Yud hey vav shin ayin wrote on those tablets and communicated to His servant Moshe, then you are serving another “j-zeus,” and not the real deal first century Torah-positive Jewish Messiah.
August 6th, 2008 at 11:09 am
As for teaching kids to break the law, I sure am glad some churchians will take their kids and block abortion clinics and try to counsel people not to murder their unborn babies. But hey, that is just “breaking the law” and they definitely need 40 minus one for that. Maybe no one should have hid Jews in Nazi Germany either, since that was breaking the law? And if the seventh dayers are right and the Sunday law is enforced, no one should keep the sabbath because, that would be “breaking the law.”And no one should help or feed the poor homeless in some cities, because that is “breaking the law.” On and on and on. What utter hogwash and limited stinking thinking. No wonder our country is so messed up. We deserve every judgment we get.
August 6th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
Hurray HMI!
You hit the proverbial nail on it’s proverbial head.
I feel like I am trying to educate a telephone pole. I keep explaining but nothin’ is gettin’ through.
Love the j-zeus, by the way. How fortunate are your wives? Very.
August 6th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Joel,
I guess we have a new definition of adultery. Adultery can now be defined as DIVORCE. So the commandment is “Thou shall not commit DIVORCE”. What Jesus actually said is this; “If a man puts away his wife and marries another he commits “DIVORCE”.
This is so typical of cults and such, they redefine words, etc. They have their own translated scriptures, This way they can make the Bible say what they want and have a guiltless conscience. I dunno, I would not want to be in their shoes on the day of Judgement.
August 6th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
Czarina,
I think I was very politely asking you to help this telephone pole understand your position. Your refusal to respond only says to all who read this that you cannot respond.
Gregory,
The fact that you keep switching answers is also only exposing you as inable to properly respond to these verses. Once again, if you would like to explain where in my reasoning I am wrong, feel free to enlighten me. Again, this is Logic 101. Which point specifically do I go wrong?
1 Jesus is saying that divorce for illegitimate, selfish or just plain old lame reasons is not legitimate in the eyes of God. It does not dissolve the man’s responsibilities before God.
2 If a man divorces his wife other than for fornication, they are still married in the eyes of God.
3 If the man is still married to his first wife and marries a second wife, he is practicing polygamy
4 Jesus calls this adultery.
August 6th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
Joel
I have given you ample Scriptural evidence that YHWH condones polygamy. You quote Scripture about divorce. You do not address the Scriptures I spell out for you. You quote Scripture about divorce.
YHWH did not change his mind between when HE GAVE David Sha’ul’s wives and when the Messiah was walking the earth. YHWH does not contradict HIMSELF. HE never changes. HE said David had walked blamelessly before HIM except when it comes to the case of Uriyah the Hitti. HE did not say except for when it comes to the case of Uriyah the Hitti and the multiple wife thing. HE regulated polygamy. Are you saying the YHWH regulates sin? (Why is it that no “anti” will ever answer that question?)
And Adam, David, Abraham, Jacob, etc., etc. did not have a marriage license from some government agency. Not getting a marriage lisence is not a crime.
So, Joel, does YHWH change? Does HE regulate sin.
August 6th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
Czarina I am sick and tired of this obviously you have been brainwashed by your sex crazed husband. You do not answer questions put to you which is exactly like how cults opperate. You and the so called HMI seem to have a think about attacking christians at every given oppertunity. This is fine but if you are so against christians what are you doing on a christian site. You also keep bringing up examples of polygamists in the Bible but you have yet to answer my question from a few days ago of nameing me one polygamous family in the Bible which was not in an absolute mess with things like murder, jealousy, false gods, etc etc. I know you won’t answer this because you can’t. Polygamy was never YHWH’s ideal but he did permit it because of man’s sin. Why settle for second best. Obviously your man can’t control his sexual urges. Also since this issue of polygamy came up a couple of months ago it has already destroyed one marriage that I know of and there are probably others that I don’t know about you. Is this what YHWH wants to see marriages destroyed. I think not.
Peter
August 6th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
If polygamous marriages were accepted by Yeshua, then he would not have said that divorce and remarriage were adultery on the man’s part. He would have simply said, “If a man divorces his wife and she marries another she commits adultery”. This is not what he said, he said, “If a man divorces his wife and remarries HE commits adultery.” Unless you are in a valid marriage you can’t commit adultery. Fornication yes, but not adultery.
Render unto ceasar. Does ceasar require a marriage license? If he does then render unto him his due. In this case get a marriage license. If you can’t because you are already married, then maybe you should abstain from that 2nd marriage.
As far as standing in front of abortion clinics? I do not approve. Why? There are legal avenues available for us today. We are making head way, albeit very slowly. Also, educating people here is the better choice. Forming protest groups would be another way to address the problem. Could you image a couple of million protesters in DC? Buying billboard space is another way to express your opinion. Bumper stickers. We are changing people’s minds in this regard. However, this is besides the point on this thread.
Adultery and fornication are a big problem in our society. We should be speaking up loudly in this regard. But, we as the church are as guilty as the rest of the people, that we would be hypocrites if we spoke up about the damage that adultery and fornication cause.
Numerous people have pointed out the damage that polygamy has caused from a biblical perspective. Let’s look at it from a human perspective. Let’s look at two examples of polygamy and what tends to happen in those communities. Women being treated like chattel. Children being forced in to plural marriages and being raped(forced to have sex). Mormonism and Islam, both groups have “child brides”, both allow the forced rape of children. I say forced rape because these children do not even know enough to make an informed choice.
YHWH would not approve of any of this. Because these marriages are compelled by their communities and religions. If a man so chooses then a women has no say. Women literally become the slaves of their husbands and fathers without rights, without a voice. You might claim that it is different within your group. But, then I would have to disagree. We already see women being coerced into submitting. One man says he punished his wife by giving her a conditional curse. Another women is being castigated by the group for not being a submissive and obedient wife. And so the abuse starts.
So, all the protesting on your part is meaningless in light of the above evidence. Today we fight for women to be enslaved and tomorrow will we fight for the sexual abuse of little girls?
August 6th, 2008 at 8:00 pm
Czarina,
If we are to hold any doctrinal position then it must be taught by the Full Counsel of Scripture. Cults always adhere to certain passages while ignoring others. While I can respond to every Scripture that has been presented, no one from your camp has been able to respond to this one set of verses that I have presented. Please explain logically which point that I make (1-4) is wrong or illogical and why.
Now, regarding your question: Does YHWH change? Did YHWH ever command all of his male followers to be physically circumcised? Does he now command all of his followers to be circumcised? Has YHWH changed?
So one more chance, please explain where I am wrong. Where is my logic flawed?
1 Jesus is saying that divorce for illegitimate, selfish or just plain old lame reasons is not legitimate in the eyes of God. It does not dissolve the man’s responsibilities before God.
2 If a man divorces his wife other than for fornication, they are still married in the eyes of God.
3 If the man is still married to his first wife and marries a second wife, he is practicing polygamy
4 Jesus calls this adultery.
August 6th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
I would like to answer Peter Stone’s challenge of finding one polygamous family where there is no problems evident. They are listed below -
2Chron:13:21: But Abijah waxed mighty, and married fourteen wives, and begat twenty and two sons, and sixteen daughters. (—- NO TROUBLE EVIDENT HERE.
1Chron:4:5: And Ashur the father of Tekoa had two wives, Helah and Naarah. (—- NO TROUBLE EVIDENT HERE.
2Chron:24:3: And Jehoiada took for him two wives; and he begat sons and daughters. (—- NO TROUBLE EVIDENT HERE.
NOW, quid pro quo Peter Stone, show me one monogamous couple in the bible with no trouble evident.
August 6th, 2008 at 9:26 pm
As for Joel his scriptures do not relate to plural marriage. Now, I can explain them in context of divorce, which I have done.
Also, yes circumcision is also something that should be done, although it is no a salvation issue. Churchians are happy to claim Acts 15 and the 4 things the Jerusalem council said was the bare minimum for fellowship, but they conveniently leave out the next phrase in that admonition - Acts:15:21: For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
They are told to go to synagogue on the Sabbath and learn “the rest.”
August 6th, 2008 at 10:24 pm
Joseph and Mary come to mind here. That is right Joseph and Mary are new testament, they do not count.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
August 7th, 2008 at 6:05 am
Gregory,
I’m still waiting for you to explain at which point I am wrong in my interpretation. Why is this so hard?
1 Jesus is saying that divorce for illegitimate, selfish or just plain old lame reasons is not legitimate in the eyes of God. It does not dissolve the man’s responsibilities before God.
2 If a man divorces his wife other than for fornication, they are still married in the eyes of God.
3 If the man is still married to his first wife and marries a second wife, he is practicing polygamy
4 Jesus calls this adultery.
August 7th, 2008 at 10:03 am
HMI you pick out the most absurd examples. in chronicles it list many people people both good and bad and does not go into what they did. That is like me reading through the phone book and pick out names that I think are good because it does not say anything to the contrary. And as for monogomous couples well there is Mary and Joseph for a start, Abraham and Sarah and please don’t be so absurd to say that he was polygamous as this did not happen until Sarah had died. But I suppose you will not agree with this as you only can see in the Bible what you want to see. Please stop twisting scripture in the same way as the cults do. By the way from what I hear most of the Messianic and even a majority of the nazarenes now lable Moshe K, Simon Altaf and the like as cultish that should be avoided at all cost, Please get a life.
August 7th, 2008 at 10:05 am
Oh one more thing I take it that HMI can’t get enough sex from one woman so he needs a harem of whores who are willing to prostitute themselve for the sake of your sexual desires.
August 7th, 2008 at 10:24 am
Peter, Abraham had many many women he was having sex with, and sons by them and they were his concubines. Hagar was just picked from the group because she was Sarah’s particular handmaid, rumored to be a princess from Egypt according to the Book of Jasher. We see that here - Gen:25:6: But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
As for your example of Mary and Joseph, you call that Harmony? He nearly DIVORCED her! Then they could not even find a place to stay to have a baby, other than a animal stable. (conventional silly wisdom like yours would no doubt say he could not support her well enough to have a decent place to birth a baby?) They had to run from Herod with their lives. These were real people, with real problems, just like all the rest.
Show me one couple in the entire bible that didn’t have problems?
The point is that every marriage has trouble, whether monogamous or polygamous.
As for circumcision, Paul in Galatians is referring to the ’second” circumcision which the Rabbis force on already circumcised converts today, in order that the “circumcision” meet “their” requirements.
Paul was not doing away with the circumcision itself. That is a misreading of Galatians.
By the way, Galatians comes from the word Galut, which means dispersion, and its a letter to Ephraim spread abroad in the “galut.”
As for Joels continued harping on a point that is not even “on” point, I guess I can drash a bit -
And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. Mar 10:11
Yes, if a man puts a wife away, the implication is that she will go out , get another man, and sleep with him, since women are apt to do that in order to have provision and a covering. That act brings the blame for her “womb” being adulterated with 2 seeds (in a successionary sense) the adultery, of which the “first” husband takes the blame in heaven, because he is hanging her out to dry basically. He is committing this “against” her, because he is the blame for it, hence the first husband takes the blame. The messiah is talking about ‘replacing’ a wife with another wife. He is actually rebuking “your” culture Joel, not mine. Because there is no putting away in the Torah culture, not true Torah culture; there is only possibility of “augmenting.” You will NEVER find a verse in all the bible that says –
And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall KEEP his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. Mar 10:11
Whosoever shall KEEP his wife, except [it be] for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery. Mat 19:9
That is what Joel is trying to make the scripture say, but it just doesn’t say that at all. And the Messiah would never imply such because plural marriage is surely regulated in His Law which same law he said heaven or earth would have to pass away before even the smallest punctuation mark would pass from it.
August 7th, 2008 at 10:34 am
By the way Donna, since your teachers are all into “Greek’speak” ask them how many words for “law” there are. Nomos comes to mind. I wonder what a Greek Translator did with a letter that was written in Hebrew originally, where the word “law” has multiple equivalents in Hebrew? Minhagim, Tanaknot, Maasim, Torah’b’ Rabannan, Torah b’Moshe, GEzherot, on and on and on. I wonder how some Greek translator figure out all those first century Jewish/Rabbinic terms of “law,” Paul was talking about at any one time?
You see, Galatians is misunderstood by your religion. That is what it comes down to. Paul was not speaking against the “law” as being what was given to Moses, he was speaking against many of the other Hebrew words for “law” which basically amounts to the traditions and teachings of men apart from the true “Law,” handed to Moses by YHWH Himself.
That sounds eerily familiar doesn’t it?
Mt:15:3: But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of YHWH by your tradition? (this is Yahshua the Messiah rebuking the same people Paul was contending with, who wanted to add traditions to the Law, while calling it “law.”)
But the church, being ignorant of true first century hebraic context think Paul is just talking about “law!” Because, like “Greek,” its all LAW TO THEM!
August 7th, 2008 at 10:43 am
What Jesus said was, “If a man puts away his wife and marries another women, he commits adultery.” The next verse says it in reverse. “If a women puts away her husband and be married to another commits adultery.
Mar 10:11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
Mar 10:12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except [it be] for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Here Matthew says, “If a man divorces his wife and marries another he commits adultery, and whoever she marries commits adultery.” Your interpretation does not work in light of the surrounding text. It is pulled out of context to make it say what it does not. This is just plain bad exegesis on your part.
August 7th, 2008 at 10:49 am
Donna, no, your the one with a problem, my interpretation is based on a broader context. You see, you cannot dismiss the commandments found from Genesis-Deuteronomy, they provide context too because the very ten commandments that the Messiah was referencing out of, are originally contained there. It is the same argument for the Sabbath. The original ten commandments call for keeping the “seventh day sabbath,” but churchianity got it all messed up, and the honest ones actually admit to it -
The Catholic Cardinal Gibbons, in Faith of Our Fathers, pg. 111, said, “You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we (The Roman Catholic Church) never sanctify.
The Catholic Mirror Sept. 9, 1893- “Nor can we imagine any one foolhardy enough to question the identity of Saturday with the Sabbath or seventh day, seeing that the people of Israel have been keeping the Saturday from the giving of the Law, A.M., 2514 to A.D. 1893 (to the present day)…”
You see Donna, until you realize that you are in the “matrix,” you will always be sleeping your nice little religious sleep “thinking” you are serving the CREATOR when really you are just trying to get in the wedding banquet wearing denominational clothing, and not wedding clothing.
August 7th, 2008 at 11:04 am
HMI,
The interpretation you hold of Galatians does not make sense in light of the surrounding text or the logic Paul is using to convey truth. The logic you use to interpret those passages do not make sense within the context of the passage. It doesn’t matter if you are using Hebraic thought or not. That is just a lofty way of saying nothing about the actually context of Galatians. Again, the redefinition of terms, so typical in cults.
Let’s redefine what the greek is really trying to convey, huh? Get a grip on reality. Jesus and Paul both used the term “traditions of men” to convey just that the oral law. Paul was not speaking about the circumcision of the heart there he was referring to the flesh.
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
Here Paul is talking about circumcision of the flesh, period. How can one tell a person is circumcised in the heart? You can’t, but the flesh, it is very easy. In verse 11 here Paul is not saying “why am I being persecuted for preaching circumcision?” What he is saying, “If I am still preaching circumcision, why am I being persecuted?” The implication being that to preach against circumcision was causing persecution. We see happening today in fact. We who preach against circumcision are being persecuted by those who think the law is still in effect.
August 7th, 2008 at 11:05 am
HMI,
I took the pill to leave the matrix and join Sion.
August 7th, 2008 at 11:09 am
HMI, please do not make any snap judgements on me. Cause I do not attend Church service on Sunday. I do not belong to any “denomination”, again you are wrong.
August 7th, 2008 at 11:15 am
Donna, Paul starts that chapter out by saying “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Messiah hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.”
Since the Messiah said Himself Mt:11:30: For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light…. It follows that we must find out what the Messiah was talking about to properly understand Paul.
If you think that the Messiah was teaching against the Law, which contained basic circumcision (Mt:5:18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled….. Mt:5:17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.) then there is no much hope for this discussio to bear fruit, since in my view you are serving “another” Jesus (2Cor:11:4: For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.)
However, if you agree with the scripture that the Messiah was indeed upholding the Law found in Genesis to Deuteronomy, then we can take that understanding and apply it to Paul’s letter, Galatians chapter 5.
So which is it Donna? Was your jesus teaching against the Law, or was he upholding it?
August 7th, 2008 at 11:21 am
HMI,
One needs to read the whole of Galatians to get what Paul is trying to say. I do not necessarily have to start at the beginning of a chapter.
Paul was teaching life beyond the law. If you go back to Galatians 3 and 4 Paul talks about a schoolmaster, and about being children under the law. But, when Christ came we are nolonger under the law.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
August 7th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Donna if you are studying to be a neurosurgeon, are you going to read just one book and then think you have “arrived?”
August 7th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Gregory,
Sigh….
Again, at which point do I go wrong? Please break apart my argument logically. How long must I wait for one honest answer?
1 Jesus is saying that divorce for illegitimate, selfish or just plain old lame reasons is not legitimate in the eyes of God. It does not dissolve the man’s responsibilities before God.
2 If a man divorces his wife other than for fornication, they are still married in the eyes of God.
3 If the man is still married to his first wife and marries a second wife, he is practicing polygamy
4 Jesus calls this adultery.
———————————————————————–
I was once talking to a Jehovah’s Witness. I asked him to read aloud a particular verse in the Bible. He read it aloud and then looked at me and declared, “But that’s not what it means.”
“I never said anything about what it means. I just asked you to read it aloud.” Was my immediate response.
He fearfully looked at me, knowing that he had just admitted that he disagreed with the teachings of Jesus.
Gregory, whether you are willing to admit it or not, you are doing the same thing. You are reading the verse and because it does not synchronize with your larger theological paradigm, you are forced to twist it to be saying something that it clearly is not saying. Your underlying argument is that we cannot take this verse at face value because it contradicts (your understanding of ) what the Bible says elsewhere about polygamy. Then you state some cliches’ about God never changing and feel justified making this verse to say something other than what it is clearly saying. We ignorant gentile churchians who don’t understand the larger context of the Bible just don;t get it and so forth. Yeah yeah yeah. At least you are not bound by pride and condescention. Eh emmm…
While I have already elsewhere handily thrashed this larger argument apart, whenever I speak with cultists like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, I have always found it a waste of time to allow them to roam all over the place. Their false teachings are such a spider web of decite that you will never get anywhere. Likewise with you, I am going to bring you bak to this one verse until we come to an agreement. We have one common enemy, and he would love nothing more than for us to waste time arguing about a hundred issues and getting nowhere. Once we have dealt with this verse, then i will thrash your larger biblical worldview apart and put you in your place. That said, back to the point that I have been very patiently trying to deal with for the past week which everyone in your camp is utterly determined to avoid.
Now for a recap: Your first method of twisting this passage was to say that the Hebrew word in this verse does not mean adultery. What a gift you gave me there. I reminded you that the verse that we were looking at was Greek, and your argument was based on something that is utterly unproveable. But now at least I see you are willing to acknowledge that this verse is authoritative. So lets at least try to understand together what it is saying.
So, let me mirror back to you what I hear you saying. Tell me if what I am saying accurately reflects your position:
What you are trying to say is that passage is saying that the man who illegitimately divorces his wife is only guilty by proxy of HER inevitable act of adultery but is not himself guilty of adultery for sleeping with a second woman. Uhhhh…. okay.
Now let’s see if this is what the verse actually stating. Try to be honest:
1) Does this verse say that the man is guilty of his wife’s adultery or that he himself actually committs adultery?
2) Does this verse say that the man is guilty of his first wife’s supposed adultery (because according to you, that is what women do) or does it say that He commits adultery against his first wife?
Awaiting your increasingly desperate flurry of responses.
August 7th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
HMI,
How did I get attacked for “attacking” Joel and then get called a “whore?”
People confuse me when they let their anger get to them.
August 7th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
HMI,
Just answer Joel’s question and stop with the evasions and intimidation techniques. They will not work on me.
August 7th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Joel, your hermeneutic is that somehow, everything changes with your version of jesus. You are not looking at the bible as a cohesive whole, but rather a staggered mottled collection of stories progressing to some kind of jumbled theology you have concocted. The words of jesus, as interpreted by you, supercede and can at will oppose the scriptures genesis-malachi, and the words of Paul, supercede even the words of jesus in your thinking.
hence, unless you agree that the bible is agreeable from genesis to revelation, and that its all just one big collection of the “same,” then we could argue all day and never get anywhere because you are looking at the bible through a selective private interpretive tiered lens instead of looking at it in a wholistic fully contextual manner.
In my thinking, the scripture is line upon line, precept upon precept. In your thinking its god changes, first its this, then ’scape that!,” now its “this,” but only for a little while! then its “that” after some time, its ’scap that!” and you pull one little verse out and think you “have it.” Simple right?
August 7th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
More evasion tactics? Answer the question!
August 7th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
Gregory,
Again, you are trying to sidetrack the discussion away from the very simple questions that I have posed to you. I’ll be happy to discuss any and all of your issues that you raise, (and thrash youa round like a rag doll) but not until you first deal with the words of Jesus and answer my very simple questions in a logical and clear way. Avoidance will get you no where.
1 Jesus is saying that divorce for illegitimate, selfish or just plain old lame reasons is not legitimate in the eyes of God. It does not dissolve the man’s responsibilities before God.
2 If a man divorces his wife other than for fornication, they are still married in the eyes of God.
3 If the man is still married to his first wife and marries a second wife, he is practicing polygamy
4 Jesus calls this adultery.
1) Does this verse say that the man is guilty of his wife’s adultery or that he himself actually committs adultery?
2) Does this verse say that the man is guilty of his first wife’s supposed adultery (because according to you, that is what women do) or does it say that He commits adultery against his first wife?
August 7th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
Number 4 does not follow. Jesus doesn’t call polygamy adultery. Sorry. The adultery is when the first wife put away wrongly sleeps with the next guy. but what if the husband doesn’t put the first wife away? We have a completely different situation. Then it is polygamy, not adultery.
August 7th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
Gregory,
Ahhhhhh………..
Again, this is basic logic 101. If the first three points are true, then number four is also true. Let me try to mirror back to you what you are doing.
1. If Red and Blue are mixed, the resulting color is Purple.
2. I mixed Red and Blue.
3. I made Purple.
And then you chime in and say that I am wrong on point 3. I bang my head against the wall and ask myself what kind of crack this guy is smoking. No offense. I’m trying to help you help this dumb gentile see your logic. So once again, which point 1-3 do I misread what Jesus is saying and why? Break down the passage point by point and explain it to me, so that I and others can see why you are reading this passage properly and why I am reading it wrong.
1 Jesus is saying that divorce for illegitimate, selfish or just plain old lame reasons is not legitimate in the eyes of God. It does not dissolve the man’s responsibilities before God.
2 If a man divorces his wife other than for fornication, they are still married in the eyes of God.
3 If the man is still married to his first wife and marries a second wife, he is practicing polygamy
4 Jesus calls this adultery.
1) Does this verse say that the man is guilty of his wife’s adultery or that he himself actually committs adultery?
2) Does this verse say that the man is guilty of his first wife’s supposed adultery (because according to you, that is what women do) or does it say that He commits adultery against his first wife?
August 8th, 2008 at 1:31 am
HMI,
How in the world does Joel’s point number 4 not follow? Because Jesus didn’t use the word “polygamy”?
What is polygamy? If a man were to marry another woman while still married to his first wife, would this be considered polygamy? Considering he now has two wives, it would appear so - unless we’re somehow confused on the definition of polygamy.
Jesus declares that a man commits adultery if he marries another woman while still married-in-God’s-sight to his first wife. The MAN commits adultery, Jesus says, not the first wife (unless she remarries, in which case her new husband is guilty of adultery, too). Not only that, but the man commits adultery specifically against his first wife. Read the verses that Joel has repeated over and over and over again.
Here’s an equation for you:
If…
Polygamy is the practice of having multiple spouses (particularly wives).
And if…
Jesus says that a man who marries another woman while still married to his first wife (i.e., has multiple wives) is committing adultery.
Then…
Polygamy is committing adultery.
What is illogical about this? Please address the issue specifically and explain exactly why this line of reasoning is incorrect - without accusing us of not seeing the whole picture of the Old and New Testament (polygamy is never raised as the model we should follow, anyway, even if OT characters did it; they did other things we shouldn’t imitate). We’re not mindless and ignorant.
August 8th, 2008 at 7:41 am
2 If a man divorces his wife other than for fornication, they are still married in the eyes of God.
Also wrong, because when this woman goes out from him, and sleeps with the next guy, this is a divorce from the man, because she has fulfilled the statement “saving for the cause of fornication,” so this releases her into the hands of the next guy, and she is his wife. However, the “manner” in which she left was sinful, but not her fault, its laid at her first husband’s doorstep.
Its like the fall, we know it was wrong to eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, that was sin right? But now that its done, its done. NO take’sies back’sies.
In fact, the first husband is actually forbidden to take her back -
1: When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
2: And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man’s wife.
3: And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
4: Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before YHWH
So even though you are misunderstanding the passage, it still does not follow that the Messiah was addressing plural marriage there.
In fact, if you think the Messiah changes this very clear law, then you don’t serve the “right” Messiah. Ex:21:10: If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
I can also demonstrate where Paul the Apostle agrees with the Torah regarding the regulation of plural marriage, in Corinthians.
August 8th, 2008 at 9:27 am
POLYGAMY is NOT “bad for women”
Dr. Joyce Brothers: “Polygamy is not as bad as people think. I would rather be third in line of a good man than the only wife of a jerk.”
[Live, as Guest: Bill Maher’s “Politically Incorrect”, Comedy Channel, Dec. 22, 1994]
POLYGAMY is NOT “Immoral”
Dr. Laura Schlessinger: “In the polygamous society of the Bible, adultery is defined as sexual intercourse between a man (whether married or unmarried) and a woman married to someone else. In biblical times, most societies allowed men to marry more than one woman.”
[”The Ten Commandments”, Pg. 218, © 1998 Dr. Laura Schlessinger]
August 8th, 2008 at 11:38 am
HMI,
You are wrong. Yeshua is clearly clarifying that divorce in YWHW’s eyes is not valid expect for sexual misbehavior. If the divorce is not excepted by YHWH, then the man is still married and if he marries another he is guilty of adultery.
Mat 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except [it be] for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Yeshua is clearly disagreeing with Moses’ divorce laws. In other words. Yeshua is saying, “here is why what Moses said is wrong(hardness of your hearts), and this is the results(the man commits adultery against his wife)”. The marriage is still valid in YWHW sight. They both need to stop their adultery(remarriage) and get back together.
August 8th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Donna, you cannot get around the qualifier that the Messiah said “except [it be] for fornication.” If a woman goes and marries another man, doesn’t that mean she is committing adultery? So, she is then free to be with the other guy. What, “now” you don’t believe the words of your own Messiah?
August 8th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
Donna:
It is a slippery slope to say that what YHWH gave to Moses HE now overrules using the j-zeus god. The Messiah is the W-rd and therefore cannot contradict HIMSELF unless YHWH is capricious and changes HIS mind — which I guess would mean that no one is saved since that promise would be up for being “wrong” at YHWH’s whim also.
August 8th, 2008 at 1:18 pm
HMI,
Adultery, yes, but not fornication. The way I understand the fornication part is thus; When Joseph found out that Mary was pregnant before their marriage, he though she was guilty of fornication rather then adultery. Yeshua didn’t say that except for adultery, he said for fornication. I see fornication as something different then adultery. Had the sexual misconduct been done while married then it would be called adultery and not fornication. Just as he is pointing out if there is divorce involved then the correct term is adultery meaning the marriage is still valid.
The part you are missing is that Yeshua, clarified it and said, “the man was guilty of adultery IF HE marries another women.” He does not say that he is guilty of the women’s adultery, because he continues and says, “the women is also guilty of adultery if SHE marries another man”.
Yeshua states that two things need to be present.
A) A man sets aside his wife.
AND
B) He marries another women.
THEN
C) The man commits adultery.
He doesn’t say;
A) If a man puts away his wife.
AND
B) She marries another man.
Then
C) The man is guilty of adultery.
You are putting words in there that are not being said. 2 things need to be present for a man to commit adultery. 1) His Divorce and 2) His Remarriage-then there is adultery committed against the wife.
August 8th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Donna,
Your logic is flawless.
Gregory,
Thank you for finally responding. Now we are getting somewhere.
Okay, so you said my statement that if a man divorces his wife other than for fornication, they are still married in the eyes of God is untrue:
Now lets see if this is what the passage is saying or if you are simply reading something into it that is not there.
According to the first verse above, who committs adultery? The man or the women? “Whosoever shall put away his wife and… committeth adultery against her”
My observations:
Point 1) the passage says nothing about the wife sleeping with another man.
Agree or disagree?
Point 2) The passage is directed toward the man:
It is not until the next verse that the Lord is speaking to the women:
Point 3) According to the passage, the man is not guilty of adultery for ONLY putting away his wife, but for putting away his wife AND marrying another. This is seen in the very fact that jesus added the words, “and marry another.”
Agree or disagree?
August 8th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Lets work from Matthew 19:9 , since that is the verse that has all the elements in place. Mark and Luke have paraphrases that are incomplete whereas Matthew has the fullest picture of the same discourse and instance.
Mt:19:9: And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Its clear that the messiah is saying there is a marriage, since he says “and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.”
So, the woman wrongly divorced is indeed married according to the Messiah even if the way in which the marriage was done was adulterous. Also, notice that the Messiah says that the man marries the second woman, and uses the term “marries,” thus giving credence to the marriage, even if its done in a serial fashion.
You are the one imputing your ideas into that passage Joel.
And I will bet that you would not dare tell Bill, who divorced Mary, and who remarried Joan to leave Joan and get back with Mary, especially if they are tithe payers, would you Joel.
August 8th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
HMI,
Tell me how a man can marry a women and it be adulterous if the marriage is accepted by God?
August 8th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
Gregory,
Actually you are correct. Matthew does speak about the women getting re-married. My bad there.
Nevertheless, yet again, you have very purposefully avoided such easy questions. Honestly. Your whole point is that the sin is in putting away the wife and thus causing HER TO COMMIT ADULTERY. According to you, the man does NOT COMMIT ADULTERY HIMSELF BUT IS ONLY GUILTY OF HER ADULTERY.
BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT THE PASSAGE SAYS. What it does say is that, “He… commits adultery”
“Whosoever (object of the passage) shall put away his (object) wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery (the man / object commits adultery, not the wife)”
Once again, the passage says that the man “COMMITS ADULTERY”
It does not say that he “is guilty of HER ADULTERY.”
Why?
When you say that I am reading something into this passage, you are being dishonest not only with me but yourself. Words mean things Gregory. Not what we want them to mean.
Also, the other obvious point that you keep avoiding: Why does Jesus use the phrase: “and marries another”? If all that is necessary for the man to “commit adultery” (by which you mean that the wife and not he commits adultery) is for him to put away his wife illegitimately and for her to sleep with another man than why does Jesus add this phrase?
“He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.”
What does this verse mean Gregory?
August 8th, 2008 at 7:39 pm
He adds that phrase because that is what Hillel was teaching, men could divorce one for burnt toast, and marry another to replace her. This is what the Messiah had a problem with, this marry and replace notion. Most men would like the idea of marrying a woman, and then after while trading her in on a newer model. In fact this was hotly debated in the first century between Hillel, Shammai, and even some Essenes sects. The guys coming to the Messiah were obviously rooting for the hillelian position, that a man can divorce his wife for nearly any cause, or even an Akiva position, where he could divorce her if she was getting too old.
This was not what you think it was Joel. It just wasn’t.
Your problem is that you are looking at this passage with what you understand about marriage in a culture far removed from how marriage was in the first century. Just because American law says such and such is adultery doesn’t follow that this is what was accepted as adultery back in the “day.”
Now the passage says the man commits adultery true, but you see, the man is the head, he takes responsibility for what happens under his watch, but there is no way he is committing adultery himself by his body having sex with another woman, because the very word means to “mix,” and that second woman is a barren field, with no other seed in her most likely. But the wife that he sent away, he has already “seeded,” and now he is casting her out to be ’seeded’ by another man. So now you have field with two different kinds of seeds in it. That is called “‘adulterating.” Now, whose blame is this? Its her husbands because he was supposed to be caring for her and watching out for her, and guarding her, and she has done no wrong to bring on this “putting away.” This is how the man is the guilty party. Lev:19:19: Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.
Adultery has to do with “mixing” or “mingling” just look at what Websters says about adulterating - - to corrupt, debase, or make impure by the addition of a foreign or inferior substance or element;
The woman who is put away is “defiled” by the second man’s foreign seed, since that man was not the one who was supposed to be sowing his seed in her “field.” Understand? That is what adultery is, and the substance of it.
Now you can concoct all kinds of crazy things Joel, but the simple fact is that the CREATOR like his stuff in neat little rows and hedges. He is a CREATOR of ORDER. He doesn’t like mixes, he doesnt like women running around being seeded by every man under the sun, and he ideally wants children to be raised in an unbroken line of parents, to child, on and on. Divorce disrupts that unbroken line in a very fundamental and organic level and that is why he hates it. YHWH is kind of like an Autistic man with a plate of peas, corn, and potatoes. Each item must be neatly lined up, and none touching the other. Satan is the one that likes to take a big spoon and mix em all up, and YHWH realy gets uptight when that happens. So, that is the substance of what I am trying to communicate to you, about adultery being part of that “mixing” that YHWH doesnt like.
August 8th, 2008 at 7:57 pm
This is a response for HMI Admin who said: “Anyway, what do I think of Roths eisogesis? Well, the ONUS is on him to prove that these two women are the same women. The ONUS is on him to prove that “Zippy” was dead before Moshe took this woman.”
MY RESPONSE: Instead of sounding so big for your britches, why don’t you contact Roth yourself and take this up with him? He’s already amply proven that you pro-polygyst types are off your rockers via his article at http://therefinersfire.org/multiple_wives_myth.htm. So the ONUS is you YOU to read this article THOROUGHLY. Roth is an Aramaic scholar and a well-known author who happens to be among the VERY FEW Messianic teachers who knows what the heck he’s talking about and who doesn’t take Scripture out of context. I suggest you stop pandering to the likes of Altaf and Koniuchowsky whose teachings are all in left field, and start studying the Word for what it REALLY says…..
August 8th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
Gregory,
Briefly, first you said that Jesus was addressing:
“or even an Akiva position, where he could divorce her if she was getting too old.”
Rabbi Akiva was born 18 years after Jesus ascended to heaven. Some solid “Hebraic” studies that you have undergone, huh?
Second you said that the man does NOT commit adultery. Jesus says that the man commits adultery. You can try to put words in Jesus’ mouth all you want, but I will go with what He said, not some weirdo pervert who literally views women as dirt to be seeded. You really are a sick man.
But beyond that, you are a coward endlessly refusing to answer the other questions… as usual…
And so once again… Sigh…………….
The passage says that the man “COMMITS ADULTERY”
It does not say that he “is guilty of HER ADULTERY.”
Why does Jesus not simply say what he means?
“He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.”
What does this verse mean Gregory?
August 8th, 2008 at 10:05 pm
HMI,
That makes no sense. Why trade a wife in by divorcing her, if they can just take another wife? This is a weak position at best. Because it is HIS marrying another that makes him commit adultery against HIS FIRST WIFE. He COMMITS ADULTERY. It does not say that HE causes HER to COMMIT ADULTERY. HE COMMITS the ADULTERY.
As to the second point, The man who marries the divorced women(not legally put away in the eyes of God, thus it is still a valid marriage) is committing adultery because he is having sex with a married women not his legal wife. If the divorce is legal in God’s eyes, then the women’s second marriage would not be adultery, it would not even be fornication.
Logic 101
If a man has a sexual relationship with a women.
AND
He is not legally married to the women.
Then
The man commits adultery.
Your logic
If a man marries a women.
AND
Men can marry as many women as they want.
Then
No matter what he can’t commit adultery with his own wife against his other wives.
The only way he can be committing adultery is if he has sex with a women who is married to another man. Then he commits adultery not against his wife, but the women’s legal husband.
This is why this passage forbids polygamous marriages. The logic you use is not consistent with the logic of the passage.
August 8th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
Shali,
Shalom and thanks for the link by the way.
Toda, Joel
August 8th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
Donna,
Well, thanks for sticking this one out. You obvisouly are as distrubed by this as I am. But I think I’m done. My effort of course was not to win Gregory as its pretty clear that he has some dark issues beyond his deviant theology. My only reason for drawing him out was to force him to reveal how utterly illogical and unbiblical one must be to practice polygamy. Not only have we accomplished our goal, but I think we are pretty well beating a dead horse at this point.
Blessings, Joel
August 8th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
Joel,
Thank you for standing up for the truth in this matter. It is very close to my heart, because many women and children are hurt by the practice. There are many Godly men out there are as disturbed by this as we are. They would never want to hurt their wife or daughters by this type of stinky thinking.
God Bless You.
BTW next month I think I will need to order more books, I have several friends who want to read, “God’s War on Terror”.
Donna
August 8th, 2008 at 11:53 pm
No,
You will never win a war on terror with a serial monogamous Roman model against the Islamic model of Marriage -
“Such is polygamy, that she spawns warriors by the score,
Where none are prosecuted for that false crime, bigamy.”
– Byron, Don Juan, canto 8, stanza 105
In pius Times, e’r Priest-Craft did begin,
Before Polygamy was made a Sin;
When Man, on many, multipli’d his kind,
E’r one to one was, cursedly, confin’d:
When Nature prompted, and no Law deni’d
Promiscuous Use of Concubine and Bride;
Then, Israel’s Monarch, after Heavens own heart,
His vigorous warmth did, variously, impart
To Wives and Slaves: And, wide as his Command,
Scatter’d his Maker’s Image through the Land. (3)”
John Dryden’s poem Absolom and Achitophel
(1631-1700 English Poet, Philosopher. He received a classical education at Westminster School and Trinity College, Cambridge)
August 9th, 2008 at 12:11 am
Shalit, I have taken this up with him. He doesn’t have a motivation to take this up. He is on the ’safe’ ground, he is appealing to the blind masses in mesianic’dom, after all, how could I ever stand against such lauded accolades…
sighs..
well Joel, you just keep on doing what you are doing, I’m sure some good will come out of it, since at least you are warning people about the Muslim threat. Just don’t expect them (Muslims) to adhere to your papist marriage model. Its bankrupt and full of divorce and they know better.
As for Donna, I can hardly believe she thinks that its easier for a man to take a second wife while keeping the first, over replacing a wife in serial fashion with another. She really doesn’t understand men I guess.
And Joel, one other thing, its the shameless refuge of the weak to resort to Ad Hominem when your opponent frustrates your attempts at eisogesis.
I have laid out a symphony of points based on several scriptures, and all you can do is twang that one note Matthew 19:9 banjo of yours, and twang badely at that.
I feel sorry for your listeners. They deserve a better class of teacher.
August 9th, 2008 at 4:02 am
Gregory,
You think it is easier to put a wife away and take another? What Divorce does to a man in this country? All I have to say is LOLOLOLOLOL, hahahahahahahahah, LOLOLOLOL, ROFL!
August 9th, 2008 at 10:02 am
Why use several passages when I can thrash your whole worldview like a little rag-doll with just one passage? Once again, thank you.
August 10th, 2008 at 8:00 am
Something I think everyone should know….
On the way back from the YATI Cult conference led by Moshe Koniuchowsky, I was sitting in the middle seat of the plane and noticed that Simon was sending a text message which read “Ani ahevet otach” which I know mean’s I love you in Hebrew. I didn’t think much of it as believers often say I love you to various people but when he saw I was looking he did not send the text but placed the phone in his pocket an immediately got up to go to the bathroom.
At that point I knew he was hiding something and given what a horrible time I had in NC with these manipulative people I was very upset. When he came back a friend confronted him about the text and he did not say who he was sending it to. At the airport he said “you have accused me of committing adultery”. I said “you have not given me a reason to trust you your actions and your fruit suggest otherwise”.
It’s interesting that YATI (THE CULT) Moshe Koniuchowsky (cult leader) and Simon Altaf have been going on about how their behaviour is permissible, to add as many wives as possible whether anyone likes it or not, so why would Simon Altaf declare that I have accused him of adultery by getting upset about a text? Deep down he knows he is guilty but he is justifying his uncleanliness by twisting scripture. Otherwise he could have simply said that he can engage in relations with any unmarried girl and that is not adultery but that was not the case.
August 10th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Aaliyah, how are you doing? Is there anything we can do for you beyond keeping you in our prayers?
HMI, you give the impression that if men don’t marry multiple women through polygamy, then the only other option is that they will marry multiple women through multiple divorce and re-marriage. (As if men are unable to control their urges and stick to one woman.)
How about this: men don’t marry multiple women, full stop! Men and women should learn the true meaning of commitment, practice wisdom in choosing a spouse, and decide to stick together through thick and thin, “for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, ’til death do us part/as long as we both shall live.” When people respect the covenant of marriage, then the marriages last a lifetime. There are still those who understand the sacrifice (and joy) of such commitment, and I believe many of us here fall under that category; but so many in western countries have become so selfish that the idea of such commitment is foreign to them. Sadly, this has affected the Church as well.
However, that doesn’t mean that true commitment is dead, and that certainly doesn’t mean that polygamy is the answer to this selfishness.
August 10th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
Mishael, you will never have an egalitarian marriage model that will succeed, that is a pipe dream. If you wanted monogamy-only, you “could” potentially close the gaping sieve of divorce we currently face by restoring the Patriarchal system and enforcing male leadership in the home and in the assembly. That would mean rebuking, rebuffing, and completely overcoming feminism and so called “equal rights,” movement on the part of the ladies. When a presidential candidate gets nixed from the ticket because he acknowledges the biblical model of wives submitting to their husbands, we have a serious problem in this nation. So please, don’t try to put a band aid on a gaping wound that is bleeding us to death. You want to “heal” babylon it sounds like, and that is admirable, but the simple fact is she won’t be healed and that is why YHWH is going to bring back an ancient model to replace the sick system we have now, i.e. Isaiah chapter 3 and 4:1,2
As for Aaliyah, she should return to her husband.
August 11th, 2008 at 1:46 am
And so the oppression begins.
August 11th, 2008 at 6:46 am
Aaliyah
My prayers are with you. We heard about what happened on YahSpace. They have a group on that network called “Issues with YATI”. You should join that network and tell your side of the story. They too have been under attack by MK and this YATI cult members. They exposed MK plain as day in a lie about their network. MK is yet to repent of that lie.
Oh, and to all you YATI cult leaders, do not even bother with me. This will be my only post, it is to invite Aaliyah to YahSpace to tell her story to their 2,200+ members.
Shalom
Haim
August 11th, 2008 at 10:04 am
I knew Moshe and his wife on time. They and their congragation are all crazy and only a insane unstable person can’t see through them. He preahes nonsence and hatred from the pulpit. Their teaching are anti-semetic and anti-Christian. A friend of mine who works in an Orthodox Jewish bookstore says, these people are inventing their own religion and they buy things from him to use. Like the transliterated Artscroll Askenazi Prayer Book a non-Messianic Rabbinic source to use cause very few can even read Hebrew and want to sound sanctmonius. Their Paleo-Hebrew is borrowed from Archaelogy and is guess work, as no one even uses those letters anymore for the past 2,000 years or more, even in Jesus day they were never used. The Dead Sea Scrolls have a few documents of old texts in Paleo-Hebrew,while most are in a primative Modern Hebrew which suggests they were not widley known even at that time. The samartians have a alphabet completly different from both Modern and Paleo-Hebrew we can only guess why. Any way Moshe and his YATI cult are as phony as a three dollar bill a total joke that any fool can spot. My advice is to avoid these cults and others as they can only lead to one’s downfall. Sam
P.S. Believe in the name of Jesus Christ and you shall know the truth and be saved, if not from eveything at least cults like this and the many others sprouting up like fonguses today.
August 11th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
A successful marriage depends greatly on heart attitude. Because we are naturally selfish, we need God to change our hearts so that we can learn to truly love. I agree that God placed man as the head of the home, but this is more of a responsibility toward the husband (e.g., being held accountable for the decisions he makes for the family) than a controlling measure over the wife (e.g., she has no right to voice her opinion or concerns).
The wise man will listen to and honor what his wife has to say before making his final decision, as she may have insight that he does not (just as he may have insight that she does not). The wise woman will submit to her husband’s authority not out of fear or even duty but out of respect and trust that he has her (and the family’s) best interest at heart and is following God’s guidance. It is not a matter of one being better than the other but a matter of respect for the positions God has assigned to each member of the family. (The husband, in turn, is called upon to love his wife as Christ loves the Church, who sacrificed Himself for her.)
Believe me, I am not a feminist in any way. The impression I get from radical feminism today is that being feminine is bad and women must become exactly like men. I disagree and think that does great damage. I think being feminine is one of the blessings of being female (although women have it in different doses, some more or less than others).
But I will say that being feminine does not make a woman less valuable or weak as a person. I think/hope you would agree.
I agree in certain areas of equal rights, but I don’t agree with forcing women to be treated like men. Men and women are different, physically and emotionally and even spiritually; God created us different on purpose, and we should honor that. We were, after all, made to complement each other.
I don’t think living this way is impossible (with God, anything is possible; He can change hearts), and I don’t think God would want us to revert to an “ancient model” like polygamy to fix it any more that He would want us to revert to the “ancient model” of divorce.
We can’t force people to follow the right path (God’s way), but we can show them the best way by example of our lifestyle. Live in a way that they want what you have.
This is no band-aid. This is God’s “original model” from the beginning, one based on love and respect and complete selflessness on both sides.
Personally, I’d rather go with the one we were created for rather than one that was tolerated for a time because our hearts were hard.
August 11th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
Very well stated, Mishael.
August 11th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
HMI Admin
How dare you say “As for Aaliyah, she should return to her husband”.How can she return when there is no trust and Simon has treated her in such a shameful way. It sound like everybody at YATI knew what Simon was going to do before his own wife. If Simon believes that Polygamy is ok then why hide it from the one person who it will affect the most. Also in Moshe K’s Book which I have read by the way he states categorically that a man should not pursue this path unless his wife is comfortable with it but yet Simon has not done this. I must admit after I read Moshe’s book I nearly fell for it but when I read it a second time I felt sick. It is basically a manual to get as much sex as often as possible. YOU CANNOT DENY THAT SEX IS THE MAIN ISSUE IN POLYGAMY. If you do deny it then you must also deny Moshe’s book as on every page he talks about sex. DO these plural wives have any brains are are they simply sheep following after ther sex crazed husbands. I was going to try to have a civil discuss tonight but after your commen I see you are nothing more than a control freak and it would not surprise me if you where also a wife beater. I do not appologise for saying what I have until you withdraw your outrageous statement which just show what type of people you really are.
August 11th, 2008 at 8:29 pm
I was a member of the BYSW/YATI for about 1 year and I regret the day I walked into that dark place. I left that congregation about 8 months ago because I no longer felt comfortable with the way people were being treated and indoctrinated. I watched many being deceived, friendships destroyed, marriages broken, fellow congregants being hurt. There is no love, peace or joy there. The so-called rabbi (MK) uses his doctrines to deceive a primarily unlearned, unskilled, low-income set of people. Eventhough he knows there is severe lack in the congregation, he badgers them every week for more money. He has deceived them into thinking that they are the true “Israel” and that they only are the rightful heirs to the Land. There is never any talk of the State of Israel, or even standing with or supporting our Jewish brethren there.
When I personally met Simon Altaf last year in Florida, I was initially impressed by his knowledge. At the time I was surprised that someone of his calibre would even choose to associate with the likes of MK, but now I see that water seeks its own level. I am very disappointed in him and his choices. I pray that our L-rd and Savior Yeshua HaMoshiach will remove this strong delusion from him so that he will not go to destruction. I support Aaliyah in her decision to leave; no woman should be humiliated this way. I pray for the L-rd to comfort and guide her during this difficult time.
As for MK, may the L-rd have mercy on him. He will one day have to answer for all the pain and suffering he has caused with his twisted, vile, heretical doctrines. Even worse now he has started a school to twist young minds. I have since cast every piece of YATI/BYSW/Simon Altaf literature out of my home into the trash, including the so-called restoration scriptures. I hope they have been incinerated lest someone finds them, reads them and gets duped by the wickedness written therein. He has truly dragged the name of our L-rd through the mud. He is a poor ambassador for Yeshua, and I’m sure some people deny Yeshua today because of his actions.
Since leaving YATI I have repented of all their false doctrines and rejoined a Messianic Jewish congregation I had left a few years ago. I have even renounced the YATI-lingo (they condemn you if you do not refer to the L-rd the way they do). I now know what it is like to have a true relationship with my Heavenly Father and to dwell in His presence. I am now experiencing love, peace and joy and learning to “grow” other fruit of the Spirit. I thank Him everyday for pulling me out of there. Now I am watching my Heavely Father work on every area of my life; I am amazed by the blessings so far!
To anyone reading this who is still associated with YATI/BYSW, please leave there for your own good! You are not only being deceived but are being denied a true relationship with the L-rd. Yeshua is waiting with open arms for you to come to Him so that He may show you how to walk with Him!
August 12th, 2008 at 8:40 am
I wonder what cult Haim is part of? I am sure I could apply the diagnostic list that Zerubbabel pulled out of his hat on Yahspace to show that every religion is a “cult” to the makers of that humanistic tool. So its kind of funny actually, as its all the pots calling the kettle “black.” As for Samuel, his piece is one big misdirected ad hominem attack. I expected better even from a Catholic. Mishael is the only person on this list that really seem to mirror the essence of any type of ability to think rationally, and demonstrate in her words any kind of “love” of the Messiah she proclaims. I don’t agree with her stance, mostly because I don’t think she is understanding that I am dealing with an issue far above the interpersonal, albeit her estimation of that is quite accurate in my appraisal. Peter, I do not disagree with the “Love-Not-Force” teaching of Plural marriage. I know the man who originated that idea in the polygamy movement that started a little before 1995. His name is Mark Henkel, and he teaches that everyone, especially the first wife should be totally on board before a husband takes another wife. I have spoken enough about this above in the previous posts. As for the sex aspect of the book, the entire book is about issues revolving around sex, that is true. But tell me, what other book put out by religion details or addresses these issues with any kind of candor or explanation? I have yet to see one. So, although the book has some Hallachic problems in my estimation, in chapter 3 and 9, overall it is the first book of its kind that addresses these issues plaguing believers everywhere so well. It also addresses the defrauding issue, which no other manual addresses, as testified by Mr Dryer’s deafening Pharisaical silence when the question was put to him several times. As for Brains, I can assure you that the polygamist families I know have professional women involved in them, Lawyers, Doctors, and other people integrated in society with technical skills and many other talents. Its a big world out there Peter, try coming out of your church someday and look around. just check it out, I’m sure you will be surprised at what you find. As for Kim. she sounds to me like some woman that rejected all the truths, including the Two House truth that was first brought out by Batya Wooten and followed up so well by Moshe K. She appears to me as one who had good seed, but the cares of life and the prospect of persecution chocked that seed in her and she turned back her hand from taking the “plow.” She is not fit for the kingdom in my opinion as she seems to imbibe winds that blow into a shul and then blow out. I am glad she has blown back to wherever else she blew, at least until that Rabbi teaches something she doesn’t like.
As for Aaliyah, she should return to her husband. I am sure he misses her and loves her dearly. Husbands can make mistakes and forget that wives are the weaker vessels that don’t think rationally about things the way Men do. There is a scripture that could benefit all men very well in regards to how they deal with their wives. It says Prov:5:2: That thou mayest regard discretion, and that thy lips may keep knowledge.
Men are constantly evaluating the world and doctrines and so on. They many times think “out loud.” This is not something that men should do in front of their wives, whose minds may not be prepared to consider things of a difficult nature. So, men, if you want to consider plural marriage (not recommended) there is a very slow and progressive pattern of steps to get your wife to at least understand that you are thinking in that direction. Dropping this on them may end in bags and pans. But with Prayers, and loving and gentle kindness, things can be restored.
All of those who are trying to divide a marriage bring a curse on themselves of which they themselves put their own marriages in Jeopardy from Heaven, YHWH is surely just in how He judges people.
August 12th, 2008 at 9:56 am
I will pray for you HMI Admin as you too are under strong delusion as MK and Altaf. Have you ever been to YATI? I spent one year there and noticed that no one, not even the leader there was being healed of their ailments; no matter how many loud or frequently they begged YHWH (a name I write with all reverence). No one there experiences any love, peace or joy. Eventhough they say they obey Torah, there are no blessing manifesting in their lives associated with Torah obedience. The people there tithe and give offerings yet their basket is always empty while the leader’s is always full. Something is terribly wrong there.
Within weeks of my leaving YATI I was completely healed of chronic ailments, even my doctor was amazed. My life was completely turned around for the better spiritually, physically, and financially. I was led by the Ruach HaKodesh to leave that place and He has blessed me for my obedience. I seek Him first, and yes, I still obey His Torah and I see the blessings. I have made the Giver of the Torah the priority, not the perverted teachings promulgated by false prophets like MK and Altaf.
YATI is full of pride, conflict, jealousies, oppression, gossip and hate. The Ruach cannot and does not operate there. If you go there you will see clearly that the Glory has departed, if the Glory was even there at all. More time is spent tearing down and criticizing other leaders, congregations and past congregants than lifting up the name of Yeshua and encouraging/helping the brethren. Yeshua is our example, we are commanded to be confromed to His image. The YATI leadership is certainly no image of Yeshua.
You are right in that I have rejected the so-called 2-House message. It is a cult that has done nothing more than to ridicule the Messianic movement to both Jews and non-Jews. It was to Judah that our Heavenly Father entrusted His oracles. I find Judah more credible than the host of crazed so-called Ephraimites out there who do nothing more than spread confusion and heresy in the Body. It is Judah from which our Messiah came; I am quite happy and satisfied to sojourn with Judah in Messiah. I need no other identity.
I am glad I “blew” out of there as the L-rd truly rescued me from that wicked place. I hope the L-rd will be as merciful to other YATI victims as He has been to me.
August 17th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
I’m wondering if it’s possibly for me to dialogue privately with Kim. I have some healing that I need and her posts re: leaving YATI have truly spoken to me.
August 17th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
Katriel,
Unfortuantely I don’t have her contact info. Aftera day or so, I lose access to the e-mail address. Maybe she will post her e-mail an you can post yours etc. Bless you, Joel
August 17th, 2008 at 7:33 pm
Shalom Katriel,
Thank you for posting. I’m not sure what you’re going through but recognize that your Heavenly Father can fix any situation no matter how grave it may be. He heals broken hearts, sickness/disease, financial situations, interpersonal relationships, anything. From creation, the only thing the Heavenly Father (Adonai) has ever wanted is a loving, parent-child relationship with mankind, not the tyrant-type relationship that is unfortunately portrayed by many religious organizations out there, YATI included. The greatest commandment, the commandment upon which all other commandments hinge is “Shema Israel, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai Echad, and you are to love Adonai your G-d with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind and with all your strength.” (Mark 12:29 - 30). We are truly reconciled with Adonai when we praise Him, thank Him for everything that has happened both good and bad, and learn to be completely dependent on Him in every area of our lives. To love Him with all our hearts, minds, soul and strength means that we must constantly seek His presence above everything; and rely on Him for guidance. When we seek His presence, He will reveal himself to us, and show us how to do the things that please Him. In His presence is fullness of joy. This is true. In His presence all darkness, depression, hurt must flee. Seek Him first and He will guide you into all truth.
Secondly, forgive each and every person their trespass against you, no matter what they’ve done. Unforgiveness separates us from the presence of Adonai because it shows that we don’t trust Him to heal us. Better to be offended than the offender. Forgive them, pray for them, pray for Adonai to change their hearts and draw them to Him. Holding on to past hurts only hurt you in the long run; and that hurt often manifests itself in sickness and disease. I had to learn to forgive after I left YATI. I forgave all their trespasses, other trespasses committed many years before, and the L-rd healed me. I still pray for them for Him to change their hearts. While I still speak out against their false doctrines, I recognize that they are under strong delusion, and just may have been given over to a reprobate mind. Learning to forgive, and praying for your enemies is one of the best ways to obey the second greatest commadment, “You are to love your neighbor as yourself.” Pray for them, if they have hurt you release it, learn from it and put your complete and total trust in Adonai, not man.
Also, seek Adonai’s forgiveness for all sin/unrighteousness that you may have committed, known and unkown. I had to repent of all sin, chief of them not putting my trust in Adonai but in man. Putting our trust in man opens the door for false doctrine to take root in our lives. Turn away from any behaviors that Adonai finds displeasing. Adonai forgives sin, He is merciful, but He will never bless sin. When we allow Him to guide us in all things, we avoid sin, including false doctrine.
Last but by no means least, our best example of how to please Adonai is Yeshua HaMashiach. He came in the flesh to show mankind how to have a relationship with our Heavenly Abba. He was in constant communion with His Heavenly Father, He did nothing without His Heavenly Abba, He and the Father are One. The way He (Yeshua) did things is the example we must follow. We must behave the way He did.
My healing took a matter of weeks after I started seeking Adonai’s presence through prayer, praise, worship, learning to be completely dependent on Him and asking for Him to guide me while I read and study His Word. Also, I had to forgive each and every man his trespass against me. He wants to be your everything, allow Him and you will walk in victory. Trust Him and let Him be your guide, and you will not be shaken.
These are simple yet powerful truths. These are the things that believers must focus on; and in the times that are coming it is only a close relationship with Adonai that is going to pull us through. I will pray for you for you to seek Adonai and His presence, and to allow Him to do His will in your life. Whatever is happening, He will comfort, He will heal, He will fight your battles and you will begin experience true Love, Joy, Peace, Goodness, etc. And when He heals you, be sure to share this with others who are hurting. This will be your testimony.
Shalom and Blessings b’shem Yeshua Ha MaMoshiach!
Kin
August 18th, 2008 at 5:47 am
Thankyou so much Joel for your kind words and everyone else who has been supportive during this horrible time.
These people are seriously deluded and I’ve had nothing but arrogant statements from Simon about how I should return home, repent and that HE will forgive me.
On top of that Moshe K has declared that he is fully armed! I’m sure many a people (and believe me there are plenty) despise Moshe K but it’s love of Hashem that stops us from acting upon the emotional turmoil this evil man has stirred. But of course these self professing Rabbi’s, Apostles and Prophets in all thier delusional glory will not understand that because they honour Hashem with their lips but their heart is far from Him. They are ever-learning but their doctrine is skewed.
August 18th, 2008 at 6:04 am
We must pray for this cult as a whole, Marshall (Moshe) Koniuchowski, Rivkah K and Simon Altaf as unless these people come to an understanding of what it means to dwell in peace and harmony and embody the Spirit, the ruach, of Hashem (God) they will cause more destruction and stike at the heart of the godly Hashem given institution we call marriage and break more families and more homes.
Let us pray for the victims in all this (I’m not the only one and I’m sure there will be more victims born of this saga) but more importantly let’s pray for the victimisers because if it wasn’t for them we would not have the victims. That is what the messiah calls us to do. Chris Shaeffer may have threatened to put a conditional curse on me but I will pray for him!
August 18th, 2008 at 8:35 am
Aaliyah, thank you for sharing your ordeal. You are truly a brave woman to stand up to threats, arrogance and injustice. I am praying for you. I too am a YATI survivor. While I regret ever being a part of that congregation, I thank Adonai for using that horrible experience to make me stronger. The only people around MK now are those who are truly afraid of him. Unfortunately these people have put him in a place in their mind that only Adonai should occupy. Adonai will soon pull the rug right from under the entire YATI leadership. Adonai is not mocked and He is jealous for His Name.
I am also praying for Adonai to change Simon’s heart to forsake these false doctrines and to love Adonai with his whole heart, mind, soul and strength. I hope that Adonai will change Simon’s heart so that he will recognize the error of his ways and disassociate himself completely from YATI; and also so that he will focus on dwelling in the presence of Adonai, and teaching others to do the same.
Shalom, shalom b’shem yeshua HaMoshiach!
Kin
August 18th, 2008 at 10:50 am
Thankyou Kin, I’m glad to see that others have also recognised this evil and departed from it.
You know what is truely the saddest part? A lovely girl at work has been making me Indian food for lunch for the last few days as I’ve pretty much been living out of a suitcase for the last month and haven’t had the opportunity to cook properly for the last 3 weeks due to moving around from place to place and another colleague has been making sure I eat at lunch time. Both of them are not believers but they have more love and compassion than Simon, Moshe Koniuchowski, Rivkah, Chris Shaeffer and the rest of the cult and so called followers of Messiah. If Hashem had not been with me for these last 7 years since I came to faith, If I did not know what I know now, and if I purely had these awful people to look upon as a testimony of faith I may not be who I am today.
Praise Hashem that I am still a believer because it will take alot more than Simon Altaf, Marshall Koniuchowski and YATI to shake the foundations of my faith. The fact that they are creating stumbling blocks for unbelievers is another matter because these lovely caring, compassionate unbelievers but them to shame. These horrible people are a disgrace to the faith.
I have had a HUGE amount of support from believers too and feel truely blessed because of it but it’s the humility and concern of the unbelievers that touches me the most as it’s the place I least expect it. Even they know that believers in Messiah Yeshua do not behave in this way and that says alot.
August 19th, 2008 at 12:01 am
Aliyah,
don’t you think that some of the things you say about the man to whom you are married could be said a bit less bitterly and with less sarcasm? If the way you talk about Simon now is indicative of how you talked TO him when you were under the same roof there may be an explanation there for you regarding why he found the idea of polygamy to be so appealing. You are almost 20 years younger than Simon yet you talk about him as if he is a recalcitrant child. This is not how one should treat a husband. Perhaps the kind women who have been bringing you lunch are being kind because they feel respected? If you treat people, including Simon, with respect, they have a tendency to treat you with respect in return.
Even if Simon were a monster, and we all know that is not true, he would respond better if you were kind to him. There are clear instructions on how to live with a spouse in Scripture. You should be in submission to Simon EVEN IF HE IS WRONG. If you truly believe he is wrong, you should be in submission, being kind and loving, and praying for the Ruach to change him as opposed to flying all over the internet trashing him and his reputation because you are angry.
If you feel you must leave, then leave…but remember you are to work toward reconciliation and you are NOT to be committing lashon hara. We will all stand before the YHWH, the King of the Universe, one day, and I do not wish for you to be judged for unrighteousness. There is never a reason that allows for anyone to go around speaking ugliness about another person.
May YHWH bless you and keep you.
August 19th, 2008 at 2:07 am
czarina,
No blaming the fact that Simon wants another wife on his wife!
You said
If the way you talk about Simon now is indicative of how you talked TO him when you were under the same roof there may be an explanation there for you regarding why he found the idea of polygamy to be so appealing.
The truth is Simon wants another wife because Simon wants another wife and it has nothing to do with what his wife is not doing. If you think Simon is so right then why make an excuse for him because you know it wrong but you don’t want to admit it.
I read that book and it the sickest thing that I ever seen! There a part in it that let woman have sex with men other than her husband and tells woman to go find you a man and don’t forget to let the hubby know. Sick very Sick book! Demon written! Shameful !
I cant believe any body would fall for it and my prayer is that people will repent before it too late.
May YHWH Bless everyone on the form to see the truth.
August 19th, 2008 at 3:39 am
He (Simon), Moshe K and others are only loosing face and “reputation” for their own actions and their own words. This is a public site, they are free to defend their words and their actions. I will not go into the den of wolves however they are free to come and go on this site as they please. I intend to warn people of this evil and my intentions are to help people and keep people from a similar fate. Many people have left YATI or are intending to leave since their whole affair (literally) exploded and also feel manipulated and deceived and feel the need to take a bath after reading that book.
As for dressing like lunatics…I was specifically referring to gold saches, Multicoloured tunics and vibrant caps with Hashem’s holy name written on in Hebrew and Paleo Hebrew. If they were levitical priests in the temple that would be considered normal but that is not the case. Simon did announce years ago that Hashem told him that he’s from the tribe of Ephraim, later down the line he announced that Hashem told him he’s from the tribe of Judah and now conveniently with the new attire Hashem has announced that he is from the tribe of Levi so I think that’s a fitting description.
Actually, the Bible in 2 Timothy 3 onwards after giving a very fitting description says “from such turn away” and that is precisely what I have done. Either way I’m sure his many wives will keep him happy so this whole poor Simon thing will not wash with most people.
He has already announced that he has married Salmah and that after thinking long and hard is fine by me (not that what I think and feel actually matters). I just don’t want to be a part of it…Is that too much to ask? And yes I will pray for all of you.
August 19th, 2008 at 4:06 am
I have every right to to be upset, deceived, and yes even sarcastic about this strange turn of events in MY LIFE because I expected more from a so called believer. Sentiments of love, compassion and mercy I attibuted to my faith and followers of Moshiach and held dear. Only cultists deny people the right to feel as they bang on about submitting to their doctrine, submitting to authority and submitting to husbands who haven’t got an ounce of love, mercy and compassion. They forget that there is a greater authority than the pedestal they have put themselves on proclaiming lofty self-indulgent titles. They instill fear by calling on the Almighty because they think that every thought that enters their head is a revelation and every word they speak is inspired by the ruach. Their thoughts becomes Hashem’s thoughts, their words become Hashem’s words and anyone who disagrees and finds their doctrine a bitter pill to swallow is destined for hell fire.
We are living in perilous times where people are traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5
as they make a pretense of religion but deny its power. Reject them.
6
For some of these slip into homes and make captives of women weighed down by sins, led by various desires,
7
always trying to learn but never able to reach a knowledge of the truth.
8
Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so they also oppose the truth–people of depraved mind, unqualified in the faith.
Their doctrine of Isaac being a literal burnt offering that was thought in the past, that the messiah was a literal leper, and on top of that confusing the two Lamechs from Genesis 4 and Genesis 5 show that they are unqualified in the faith. And thier titles are sheer vanity.
August 19th, 2008 at 6:01 am
Chana,
This is how the cultist mind works…If they can’t manipulate and brainwash people to do things they don’t want to do then they find any way possible to justify the actions of adherents of their doctrine.
No-one will fall for that after:
a) knowing about the filthiness in that book and you have testified to that after reading it as have I and countless others.
b) FORCING their sexual perversions on women and giving their wife no choice but to flee from such depravity. And to once again leave what they once knew and loved. I left my muslim family and everything I once knew and loved more than anything in the world (my dad) to follow Hashem and now I have to do that once again.
c) Threatening to curse anyone who doesn’t comply and submit to their twisted ways as evidenced by Chris Schaeffers self- incriminating e-mail posted somewhere in this blog
d) Watch this space….
Love in Messiah
Aaliyah
August 19th, 2008 at 6:08 am
Al;iyah,
Nowhere do I say that you must submit to the leadership of YATI. I am simply saying that you do not have a right to say whatever crosses your mind because you are hurt. You do have a right to your feelings. The mark of a mature believer is that no matter what they feel they hang on to YHWH and they do not behave in ways that bring shame on YHWH, Yeshua, their spouses, families, and/or themselves.
You do not have the permission of YHWH to be mean despite what you feel you have been through. I am simply giving you a warning on the way. If one is hurt the best thing is to hang on to YHWH. Take your eyes off the people and how they have failed you. I promise you, Aaliyah, you will feel wronged again, the people on this list will fail you, you need a better plan than complaining loudly and longly on the internet.
There is no caveat on the commandments that says, “Don’t go around gossiping and demeaning others — well, unless you feel hurt.” The Scripture does not say, “Submit to your husband, unless you are Aaliyah Altaf and you don’t like what he is doing.”
August 19th, 2008 at 6:26 am
Czarina wrote:
“You should be in submission to Simon EVEN IF HE IS WRONG. If you truly believe he is wrong, you should be in submission, being kind and loving, and praying for the Ruach to change him”
It’s a bit late to change anything as he has already announced that he is married to Salmah. He didn’t waste much time. And no I will not submit and allow myself to be defiled by such filth and I will speak out for those who do not have a voice.
Praise Hashem I don’t have any children, praise Hashem I am working and therefore not completely dependent on him and praise hashem that this has happened now and not 10 years down the line.
I feel for the woman who has children when this happens to her, and she is completely dependent on her husband and does not have the self esteem to do anything but die to herself daily but not for the sake of righteously following Hashem. And that woman, I will personally take by the hand as will some other very compassionate and loving people that I know of.
August 19th, 2008 at 9:20 am
I have to ask, what is wrong with dying to oneself daily? Isn’t that what we are called to do? I will assume that you meant to word that differently.
Aaliyah, not every woman who lives in a plural marriage is 1) old, 2) not working, 3) lacks self-esteem. I work, I am VERY successful. I make obscene amounts of money. I am quite the confident person who has no issue with standing up for myself. I am also the 1st wife in a plural marriage. I will be the 1st to say, Aaliyah, that your personality is not the type of personality that would do well in a plural marriage. Living plurally is one of those things that requires a forgiving spirit and the willingness to admit that being wrong. It also takes someone who shares well and has the gift of hospitality. You may have many gifts and talents, but a forgiving spirit is not one of those gifts and talents. And that is fine — there are types of people who are not supposed to have an all forgiving spirit — although they are still required to forgive those who wrong them. And your personality type was created by YHWH so that you would be able to do what HE has called you to do.
My concern, Aaliyah, is that you are letting the people on Joelstrumpet use you as their spokesperson against polygamy when you don’t believe in their theology any more than you do in YATI’s theology. (I notice that you still use “Hashem.” I am assuming that you still identify with being Messianic or “Two House.” ) If so you are not equally yoked with Joel and his tribe of followers this will lsoon ead to some kind of disagreement and you will get hurt.
Aaliyah, the people will always fail you. That is the nature of people. There is also a very real blessing in people failing you. It keeps one mindful that the only one who does not fail is our Elohim, YHWH.
If you can accept that people will fail you every time, then it is easier to let them be imperfect and one loses the need criticize them. It is when we realize that we have failed others miseribly that we quit judging others for failing us. You are still young and have probably not failed enough times that it has become humbing for you.
Aaliyah, I don’t really care if you go back to Simon or if you don’t go back to Simon — I care that you walk perfectly with your G-d and that you get rid of the anger and hatred. The anger and hatred don’t hurt other people, they only hurt you…
I guess what I want for you is for you to be at peace regardless of what you chose for your life. You are too smart, too pretty, and too talented to waste more than a moment railing against things that are not going to change.
But, hey, this is all my humble opinion — well, except the part about you being very pretty, very smart, and very talented — that is evident to all.
Go in peace — don’t waste time trying to change things that are not going to change. Don’t be used by the fundy christians, Aaliyah…there is only pain at the end of what initially appears to be their complete acceptance.
August 19th, 2008 at 9:42 am
It is time to move forward ladies. This news is from the past. Live your lives for YHWH. People make their own beds and have to deal to live in them. We are all adults here, look at your own lives and stay out of others.
Take care of your own temple and live a life of Shalom.
August 19th, 2008 at 11:03 am
With all due respect Czarina, I have been walking this walk for 7 years and will continue to do so. Hashem was enough to draw me out and Hashem will be enough to sustain me.
I am completely disgusted with how His holy name has been abused and defiled. I call upon his name during prayer only now.
And as for not believing in the theology of Joel’s trumpet I don’t know what their theology is. But what I do know is that I am not here to fit any man made mould but with continue in the simple faith that Hashem led me to. Doing mental gymnastics over scripture is not my style as it only leads to confusion and cults…evidently.
I’m not wasting time…far from it. People are getting to know how dangerous and manipulative these cults can be and have a heightened awareness of these perilous times because of it. I am not trying to change them, I am not that vain, only Hashem can change things…I’m just here to do what I can in offering support to anyone who needs it and warn people of this cult. That I consider my civil duty.
I’m not even angry anymore as I feel blessed to be saved from all this and know that I have a bright future without Simon. Only Hashem could give me such peace at a time like this. And I will continue to stive to warn people about these people as long as I am helping someone….and that someone is worth the effort.
“You may have many gifts and talents, but a forgiving spirit is not one of those gifts and talents. And that is fine — there are types of people who are not supposed to have an all forgiving spirit — although they are still required to forgive those who wrong them.”
So what does forgiveness involve Czarina? Submitting to your (YATI’s Simons and Moshe K’s) off the wall doctrines? Being forced to accept a polygamous marriage? Rivkah the cold heartless woman while I was crying on the phone in the early hours of Monday morning said “You can either accept our doctrine or leave” so I left the cold world of YATI, Moshe K and Simon Altaf.
To brush things under the carpet so that YATI don’t lose more people (more tithe), more face and more respect so that their doctrine of demons ruins more marriages and more lives?
You don’t need to “concern” your pretty little head about me…Whatever “concern” this cult and it’s members have is evident for all to see.
August 19th, 2008 at 11:21 am
Aaliyah, if you think this blog is going to diminish YATI, you should be aware that ever since this happened, the Yati ning network has grown with more Rabbis, Pastors, and several other individuals from around the world. Rabbi Moshe’s group has expanded from a localized organization to a worldwide one getting attention and support from far flung places, where as I said before, 80 percent of the earths cultures already accept plural marriage. Its the same way with the Hollywood stars and their public acknowledgments. Any press is good press.
Now, as to your situation, I can see that you do not respect your husband and it oozes from your posts. It not just “hurt” that oozes, but “disrespect.” And I can tell you Aaliyah, although brother Simon surely still loves you and wants you back, no man would want the disrespect that comes with it. You obviously don’t agree with YATI on nearly anything, so, even without the plural marriage issue, this was all just pressure building up wasn’t it Aaliyah? After all, since you are intent even before the plural married thing came up, to not submit to your husband’s decision to accept the Yati belief system, you put yourself in a place where “you” would decide what was right and “true” irregardless of what your husband thought. If a wife doesn’t submit to her husband’s spiritual headship, she separates herself from her husband in her mind and spirit, and hasn’t this been going on for some time Aaliyah, even before the plural marriage situation came up? True or False?
So, since you very early on decided you would be your own pope of doctrine contrariwise against your Husbands decision to accept the belief system he sees as true, the very CONFLUENCE of forces “you” cause and put into action by your separation from your husband in mind and spirit, was what really caused your break up from Simon, and actually, the plural marriage situation was just the “straw that broke the camel’s back.” Isn’t that true Aaliyah? As it is written - Amos:3:3: Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
I have surely seen this story over, and over, and over again….. the last one I read about was Lot’s wife..
You see, you either accept what your husband teaches by the act of submission to his headship or leave. Don’t hang around until he “does something” that will make it so you “look” good in the public eye and have a “good reason” to get out of it, and he looks “bad’ because the “mob” will surely agree with “you” and hold him to be a demon.
NO, Aaliyah, just “leave.” OR, turn and submit to your husband’s headship WITHOUT feigning it.
August 19th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Until “he does something”?????????? Is that another threat just like Chris Schaeffer’s one. Pick on your own size. Simon started falling by the way side soon after he got involved with you lot. Many people in England noticed his sudden change in demeanor over the last year or so. You’re all under the influence of unclean spirits. Your actions testify against you.
I thank Hashem that I have been saved from your influence. Praise Hashem that there was at least the Atlantic Ocean between me and your cult.
You people are just evil and your fruits are evil. All you people are inviting into your harem is lustful carnal individuals who are more interested in their sexual gratification than honoring Hashem.
I don’t know why you’re talking about leaving as I have clearly “left” on the 15/07/2008.
And may I remind you all that you are also under a headship also and one day you will have to answer to that.
August 19th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
And So the oppression continues.
I am totally appalled at the callous remarks by those who are obviously in this cult. It is quite apparent to me that Simon has already committed adultery. Instead of standing with Aaliyah in her time of need she gets scathing attacks. Tsk, tsk, tsk.
Aaliyah,
Hang in there. Speaking up is not wrong. Keep up the good fight.
May Hashem bless you!
Donna
August 19th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
I’m just curious. If YATI has grown so much since being exposed as a vile, polygamous cult, why have they now had to hide in private chatrooms and networks? Why have they run from their original location of a North Miami Beach warehouse with a sanctuary and Moed Hall to a small storefront in a seedy North Ft. Lauderdale strip-mall which is now invitation-only? There was a time when MK “poured scorn” on any congregation for being a storefront. Why are they now hiding? Why are the selling off assets including the pews and the Torah scroll they used? And now they claim to sell used “kosher” Torah scrolls? Have you ever thought that many of the people joining the YATI “ning” are only there to gather information and expose it on other web sites?
YATI’s strength lies only in the deluded minds of its leaders. These leaders want plural wives not only for sex, but also for income. If they have more than one wife who makes a big salary, these men don’t have to work. They want wives to pay their bills. The wives they are seeking won’t be stay-at-home. YATI is actively soliciting professional women to join their vile ranks. The previous model of badgering poor, ignorant congregants for more money doesn’t work so now they’ve simply changed their business model.
I know Bro. Elbenyahu (Edgar Lugo). He personally painted and gave several biblically-themed paintings to YATI and they were displayed in the sanctuary. He was the one who personally varnished the YATI pews until early hours in the morning when they were being re-upholstered. He personally did the landscaping at YATI and assisted in cleaning up a junkyard they had leased in order to build the school at its original location. He gave so much for that organization; yet that did not stop the leadership from kicking him like a dog when the time was right. The paintings never came down after Elbenyahu left. I suppose they have now been sold.
I’ve seen too many people hurt by YATI, some today deny their Messiah. All I can do for these people is pray for them and comfort them; these people are truly hurting. But there are also those of us who will stand up to and expose YATI for what it is: a hateful, heretical, vile, anti-semitic, brainwashing, misogynistic, fraudulent cult.
I suppose the YATI die-hards who appear on this message board are willing to follow the leadership into Gehenna wearing gasoline jackets. You poor, deluded souls. I’m praying for you to be freed from this oppression. Enough said…
August 19th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Thanks Donna,
And I am very happy for you that you have such a lovely husband as I read earlier in the post. May Hashem bless you both abundantly and protect you both all your days.
I’m no longer concerned about the cult and their remarks. They have no power over me and that’s what bothers them. I choose to stand for justice and equity but they cannot comprehend such things.
The Simon I once knew and loved has well and truely gone.
August 19th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Thanks Donna,
And I am very happy for you that you have such a lovely husband as I read earlier in the post. May Hashem bless you both abundantly and protect you both all your days.
I’m no longer concerned about the cult and their remarks. They have no power over me and that’s what bothers them. I choose to stand for justice and equity but they cannot comprehend such things.
The Simon I once knew and loved has well and truely gone.
August 19th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
Hub Admin,
I don’t respect any cultist.
August 19th, 2008 at 5:52 pm
Hi Kin,
YATI are not hiding behind private chat rooms anyone can join provided they do not attack other members personally.
Also they moved from Miami Beach for I believe better opporyunities, just because someone moves location does not mean its bad.
Invitation Only? well thats their business
August 19th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Hi Aaliyah,
Just a quick question I notice that you do not refer to HaShem as Yahweh why is that? are you denying His Name?
HaShem means The Name and that Name is Yahweh.
August 19th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
The only authority anyone has over me is in Hashem. You and all your cultist should stop playing that card…it’s wearing thin and no longer has any value. If the marriage vows had little or no vaue that I should either accept your cults doctrine or leave then neither does the authority they afford.
August 19th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
Aaliyah,
I am delighted to hear your strength. Cults can do so much damage emotionally to those who are weaker in their faith. All this brings back bad family memories for me. While my family history is not of polygamy, adultery on my mother’s side of the family left an indelible mark that has created misery beyond belief for two or three generations already.
Her father would bring home his girl friends for my grandmother, at knife point if she refused, to take care of and feed. While it is not exactly the same, the same scriptures were used for women to be submissive to their husbands, all in the name of a “loving God”(she was a practicing southern baptist). Guilt and eternal damnation is not much different then knife point in these matters. One kills the flesh here and now, the other promises eternal retribution from an “angry God”. This created in my grandmother a dreadful fear of God and death as she did eventually leave my grandfather.
Cults tend to leave the same indelible marks upon their victims. Which of course is horribly sad. So, I am delighted to see you overcome these negative feelings.
Donna
August 19th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
Everyone is a cult but their own religion. Oy Vey.
August 19th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
HMI,
This shows your lack of “Hebraic” (ie., Biblical) thinking. Modernists, Americans and Individualists think that religion is something to be custom created according to their own understanding and private interpretations. Pure subjectivism. This is why false prophets always flock to such groups. Truly Biblical thinkers realize that religion is something to be submitted to, not to be created. True people of God have always been part of an identifiable community that can be traced back to Yeshua. Jehovah’s Witnesses and groups like YATI share the notion that true Biblical believers disappeared almost immediately after Christ and have only now reappeared. Cultists like this are ignorant of the rich history of the followers of Messiah. You do not follow a faith handed down by God but rather one created by your own opinions and the lusts of those who have gone astray. Call it a heretical sect, call it a cult if you like, its all refers to the same soul destroying reality. In essence, you are your own god and not even the Bible can tell you otherwise. But Yahweh will be your judge. Pray for mercy now if you are wise.
August 19th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
Aaliyah:
I don’t really think you should return to YATI, and I have never even suggested that you return. I am concerned by the level of vilification in some of your posts.
The people in their tunics with their hats that had YHWH’s name were only attempting to show how much they believed and loved YHWH. You see there are two ways to see things. One gives people the benefit of the doubt and the other calls them fools and ridiculous.
I am simply saying that it would be better to tone things down some. Additionally, it might turn out in your favor as women who are too strident tend to be ignored rather than listened to — which may have something to do with why YHWH, in HIS infinite wisdom, told us to not behave rashly and to not call people names.
Truly, Aaliyah, I do care about what happens to you. We may not agree, but I see a young woman who went through a great deal of pain and is now being exploited by fundy Christians for their own ends.
August 20th, 2008 at 2:14 am
Czarina,
Everyone can hear the Wolf in sheeps clothing in your tone. I know precisely why you are “concerned”…you are only concerned about your cult. Your “concern” is gravely overshadowed by you and your cults actions. Like I said don’t “concern” yourself with me. Concern yourself with your self…thats what you people are good at.
Kin hit the nail right on the head with the last post. I could have pointed that out myself but Hashem has bought another credible witness to this evil who was there when Edgar Lugo for so badly treated and then kicked like a dog when his back failed him.
I don’t need your pearls of wisdom…give them to your cult…they need them the most.
August 20th, 2008 at 2:38 am
Czarina,
Perhaps you could be less condescending to us “fundy Christians”. I understand you are not happy with Aaliyah’s choice of words. They tend to put polygamists in a bad light. But, to attack a whole group of people without biblical cause is uncalled for, really!
You want Aaliyah to tone down her rhetoric, perhaps as a good will gesture and good role model, you could show her the way?
In trying to limit the damage done to the polygamous movement in this country(calling Aaliyah on the carpet for making this public knowledge) you are engaging in the same type of behavior you are condemning.
Your claims of caring are kinda funny in a sad sort of way. You claim to care and yet defend her adulterous husband. You claim to care and yet chide her for her words. Sorta like, I love you , here I need to beat you. Only the beating is taking place verbally, rather then physically.
This type of “caring” is a form of mind control. Something typically found in cults. Below is a link about cults. Look under “love bombing” and “character assassination”. Both of which you are currently engaging in. In the guise of the ‘caring women counselor” you are trying to get her to shut her mouth at the very least. At worst it is an attempt to gain control over her behavior and thus lure her back into the “group/cult”.
http://www.howcultswork.com/
Perhaps you could really show you cared for her well being by supporting her rather then engaging in ‘character assassination”?
August 20th, 2008 at 2:55 am
Czarina & HMI in is clear that both of yous have been brainwashed and cannot think for yourselves. Int is also interesting that Moshe K now also supports the actions of cults like David koresh in Waco. So I take it that we will be all seeing you on CNN soon taking your own lives. All I can say is get out before it comes to this. Your statements about Aliyah that she should be more respectful are totatally out of this world. She has been more respectfult than most women in her position would be. AND WHY SHOULD SHE BE RESPECTFUL OF A HUSBAND INVOLVED IN ADULTARY. Obviously your difinition of adultary has changed from what YHWH’s. On more thing that you have never answered is this. Even if Polygamy is the right way to go (and I don’t believe this for one minute), Moshe K said that husbands should not go down this path unless their wives agree 100% obviously Aliyah does not agree so why did Simon disobey his cultist leader or has moshe changed his opinion on yet another issue. Over the last 2 years I have got many offical statements from YATI which state that this is what they believe but then a few months later they have changed their mind. This is fine but in all their statements that make it clear that if you disagree with it you are going to hell and in Moshe’s own words “full of crap”. So accoring to Moshe K if you believe in polygamy you are going to hell and if you don’t believe in it you are going to hell. Please tell me which is it.
August 20th, 2008 at 3:22 am
Clearly there is no command against more than one wife. Simon Altaf is not doing anything wrong. The only arguements I hear are based on the notion that The Maker changed His mind about how He want us to live(ie The Torah has changed). It is painful to see but ‘normal’ that when someone stands for a true thing we are faced with a choice that means we become more obedient or more rebellious. Today we are being called away from disobedience to The Makers Instructions once again. Should we please church doctrine when it contradicts scripture? or should we please our Maker? It is not like they werent wrong about all sorts of things: ‘going to heaven when you die’, ‘we dont have to keep all the commandments anymore’……etc
August 20th, 2008 at 3:41 am
Precisely my point Donna, most people can discern whether “concern” is genuine or whether it has ulterior motives.
This is rule number one of cultists, to say things that tickle the ears…”very pretty, very smart, and very talented — that is evident to all.” with lips as smooth as oil they try too manipulate people into doing what they want. And right now that is for me to retreat and leave the door wide open to manipulate people further and to save whatever face they have left.
Moshe (Marshall) Koniuchowski at the conference:
“Husbands, lay your hands on your wife, tell her you love her, reassure her until she comes to an understanding as you move to a higher level”.
Cults provide a great deal of comfort and a support network to their adherents so that people become emotionally dependent on them and can’t see past that. Once someone has completely submitted their will becomes Hashem’s will and their ways Hashem’s ways and anyone who dares to waver is in risk of eternal damnation and hellfire.
Simon was hailed as the End Times Prophet, he was given fruit baskets as if it was an offering. He was endowed with the title of “Rabbi” that he coveted and with that title came the power to slam down anyone who didn’t do things as he would do them and criticised anyone to their face for not being faithful, obedient and doing the work of the kingdom. Little did he realise that his attitude put people off so that who had a desire to serve in the kingdom didn’t necessarily want to serve him.
His mind was opened to sexual immorality last year after coming back from their annual conference when he told me that Moshe Koniuchowski said that it is good for a man to get a weekly massage from a professional masseuse. Of course your wife can watch so that no hanky panky takes place. At this point I knew there were problems with this guy who enjoys being caressed by other women while he’s in his boxer shorts. My response to Simon after explaining that doesn’t sound right was “I’ll hire a male masseuse for you if you insist”….I never heard about the topic since.
And Yes Hub Admin this is the last straw on the camels back as you so candidly put it. The influence your cult had and the damage it did started when you people slowly opened his mind to sleazy fantasies and made him aware of his “needs” as a man and all the sexual freedom you have offered with the audacity to do it in Hashem’s holy name. People in England saw that change in his demeanor, his lack of love and compassion, his demand of obedience in doing things his way is the reason why people distanced themselves while I had to endure the darkness from within and thanked Hashem for the Atlantic Ocean between us and your cult.
During the conference, Peter, they did a midrash that I was informed about where they said that your wifes permission is not necessary as most women will not allow a second, third wife etc. They have the authority to do as they please and don’t need anyones permission. It at that point became a commandment to engage in multiple marriages and raise seed for Israel. And their is why the book is not only filthy on the outset but also deceptive. Perhaps the new and improved edition will clarify this stance.
August 20th, 2008 at 4:04 am
Aaliyah,
It is really sad. I am seeing a cult at work right on this thread.I am trying to highlight the cultic activity so that people can be educated in the workings of cults.
Due to family history I was very vulnerable to these kinds of tactics and I needed to educate myself so as to keep myself free from them.
God Bless You
From a Fundy Christian
August 20th, 2008 at 5:59 am
Oh…I spoke too soon. New and improved edition with have the following as announced by Moshe (Marshall) Koniuchowski on the 19/08/2008.
Please read below…
……………………………………………………………………………………………
From: ravmoshe@bellsouth.net
To: ravmoshe@bellsouth.net
Sent: 8/19/2008 9:07:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time
Subj: Behold I Stand at the Door and Knock
Shalom friends, I have added lots of new insights into the next printing of Sex and The Believer not found in the first printing. As such, today I will depart from the ongoing study of Tehillim 37 and will post this new section from the upcoming updated book Sex and the Believer.
Get ready to be really challenged!!
Behold I Stand at the Door and Knock
As many have begun to see that sexual pleasure is part and parcel of the Hebraic life and is not to be compartmentalized as an indulgence of the flesh as the early church fathers taught, a new found dimension is being experienced. As more and more Torah keepers realize that everything we do under the sun, whether praying, studying the Word, or having sexual pleasure in a kosher manner within single, or plural marriage, is a spiritual experience, the need to have Yahshua our Savior reign over every area of our lives has become more apparent. This can only happen by inviting Him into areas thought to be off limits.
Many who understand that Yahshua is the Creator of kosher sex, also understand that Yahshua and the Holy Spirit actually enjoy when we obey Him in sexual relations within marriage. Yahshua is well pleased with our obedience, which is always better than mere lip service. I believe due to this undeniable fact, that the Holy Spirit when invited into the bedroom before, during and even after climax can and will add a whole new dimension of sexual excitement to the love making process. In other words, rather than the husband and wife, or wives trying to satisfy their own flesh and desires, even in the marriage bed, if those about to engage in lovemaking seek His presence, before, during and after, the result is a more powerful time of lovemaking and always results in a heightened state of sexual energy, arousal and orgasm.
The reasons for this is because the Holy Spirit, the great Guide and Comforter, has been given to guide us and lead us into all truth, including lovemaking and an intensity that can only be achieved when He is verbally invited in. I have known couples and plural marriage families, that have always felt that to invite Yahshua to watch while they make love is dirty, vile and below his holiness. They have falsely believed that Yahshua is so set apart, that He has no interest in watching and participating in human sexual climax; nothing can be further from the truth.
Rather the truth is that when the Holy Spirit is asked to guide and Yahshua is asked to conduct the intimate lovemaking, it actually becomes a selfless act and turns what can be an automated sexual release, into a prayerful time of seeking His guidance and a heightened time of awareness of His desire to be in the room! Those who have invited Yahshua into the act of lovemaking, soon realize that Yahshua is not only pleased with kosher lovemaking, but desires to participate in a mystical spiritual bond with the love makers. The only way this can work is if you are willing to have your minds renewed and realize that there is nothing carnal at all about sex; as a returning Israelite, its is part of a Hebrews dependence upon YHWH for all things, even for the most exciting and heightened sexual activities between husband and wife/wives.
All we have to do is carefully study the history of sexual perversions like temple sex cults, where s.a.tan has his followers having sex while praying, singing, dancing, worshipping and drinking blood. In almost every wicked and dastardly false manifestation of worship given either knowingly, or unknowingly to s.a.tan among the heathen, there is inevitably some kind of rebellious sexual act, or sexual activity that accompanies his adoration. This alone is a dead give away to those with discerning spirits that s.a.tan is offering to guide the sexuality of all those illicit and illegal sexual acts outside of marriage. He not only inspires these defiled and rebellious sex acts of worship, but actually orchestrates them, seeking to lord it over his disciples in every area of their lives. Oftentimes alcohol and drugs, or other comforting enhancements, serve as substitutes for the Holy Spirit, in order to make the perversion more intense and more comforting. Now remember that usually where there is a great counterfeit by s.a.tan, there is a great underlying and pure truth of Yahweh that s.a.tan has perverted. While s.a.tan knows that kosher sex within marriage is guided by Yahshua when done right, he has chosen to manifest his wickedness by covertly directing all illicit and forbidden sex acts as acts of personal worship to him. The atheists and agnostics having forbidden sex may not see what they do as acts of s.a.tanic worship, but s.a.tan knows all to well, that this sex, based on rebellion against YHWH, actually pays homage to the father of lies and rebellion. Himself!
While all this false worship involving sex is unknowingly taking place, most believers, especially those refusing to have their minds challenged and those that still cling to church based Puritanical teachings on human sexuality, still are having sex in the dark, metaphorically speaking, even though the lights are on. Why?
Because they have believed the long held and time honored tradition that when they have sex, Yahshua and the Holy Spirit stand outside the bedroom, until the dirty carnal act of sexual climax is over, so that Yahshua and His Spirit can re-enter the bedroom once the sex has been concluded. Nothing can be further from the truth! They in fact stand at the door and knock; if any couple, or husband and their wives, let the Son and Spirit into their bedroom action, they will be sealed and sanctified, as those who rely on the Holy Spirit in all areas of their lives, including teaching and guiding them how to please their partner by selfless love, directed to their partners’ needs, as opposed to mere personal satisfaction.
For those few having discovered that there is nothing dirty about sex within a marriage that needs to be hidden from The Master and for those who verbally pray and invite Yahshua to join their orchestration (a type of His intimate care of His own mystical body), there is nothing more sexually exciting than to realize that Yahshua is there in their midst (2 or 3 gathered in His Name), well pleased, watching, enjoying and directing obedient non-rebellious lovemaking.
For those willing, you will soon find the best sex you have ever experienced, as all those involved literally cry out to YHWH in thanksgiving for His permissive pleasures and for the heightened state of spiritual awareness, both during the process and during the orgasms attained. To renew your mind and achieve this wonderful Hebraic concept of purity where Yahshua lovingly through His lordship oversees your bedroom activities, the following prayer times are in order:
· Pray before entering the marriage chamber/bedroom.
· Pray right before lovemaking commences.
· Talk to the Spirit during lovemaking verbally expressing thanksgiving for His leadership and comfort.
· Verbally thank Him just prior to climax and thank Him for being present in Spirit and allowing this great pleasure.
· Pray and thank Him after all have climaxed, for the blessing of kosher and clean lovemaking that has made the marriage bed undefiled.
This may be radically different than what you have been taught, but know this.
YHWH knows this to be true, s.a.tan knows this to be true (have you ever noticed how even heathens and agnostics call out to “god” during climax, that’s the counterfeit given by the god of this world) and today YHWH wants you to know this truth, so that you can be set free completely and then preserve that freedom, until the physical return to this earth of our Mar-Yah the Savior, Yahshua Ha Moshaich.
The book that is restoring patriarchal marriage to our people and making demons scream in anguish of being. The book that is literally changing lives to bring Israelite families back in line with the lifestyle of our fathers! Order the new edition NOW! Copies are limited!
“Sex and The Believer”
Order Now
http://store.yourarmstoisrael.org/Qstore/Qstore.cgi?CMD=011&PROD=1212147193&ADMIN=YES
Place your order before Aug.22nd this Friday and you will receive a small cute Tallit with a blue techellet bookmark, with each paid order. Thank you for your ongoing support of YATI Int’l Ministries. We can only continue with your unconditional and ongoing financial partnership!!
Paypal gifts to: ravmoshe@bellsouth.net
or send your credit or debit card number and exp. date and the amount of your gift to:
ravmoshe@bellsouth.net
Each gift will receive a personal response
Call 1-305-868-8787 to order or donate
————————————————————————————-
He crtiticizes Temple prostitution while he glorifies it, so long as he calls on Yahoshua to join in the orgy.
August 20th, 2008 at 6:47 am
I think we all know what perversions they are heading towards.
It will give a brand new meaning to 2 or 3 being gathered together.
August 20th, 2008 at 9:20 am
I feel like I need a bath.
August 20th, 2008 at 9:31 am
MK has truly dropped face-first into an abyss. He and the horde who follow him are sex-crazed, brainwashed lunatics. They get nuttier with every full-moon. This is disgusting! And to think that there are idiots out there who are paying thousands of dollars per year to have this wicked man educate their young children?! I have no doubt that someday the Feds will raid BYSW/YATI and shut this nazarene yisraelite “sweatshop” down!
Aaliyah praise Adonai that you are out of this sick cult. Sometimes Adonai uses unpleasant situations to deliver His people. You are truly free now!
Kin
August 20th, 2008 at 10:16 am
“The book that is literally changing lives”
I can certainly testify to that….he’s got a nerve.
“Pray and thank Him after all have climaxed”…now does all men two or does all mean three? No wonder these men are itching to “marry” a second/third wife.
August 20th, 2008 at 11:12 am
Hey Joel, so what identifiable community can “you” trace yourself back to Yeshua?
I would particularly like to see your tracings from the years , oh.. about 1500 back to Yeshua.
Please, DO TELL.
HMI Admin.
p.s. Aaliyah hub is not the same as HMI
HMI is an acronym for our Shuls.
Joel smugly says -”HMI,
This shows your lack of “Hebraic” (ie., Biblical) thinking. Modernists, Americans and Individualists think that religion is something to be custom created according to their own understanding and private interpretations. Pure subjectivism. This is why false prophets always flock to such groups. Truly Biblical thinkers realize that religion is something to be submitted to, not to be created. True people of God have always been part of an identifiable community that can be traced back to Yeshua. Jehovah’s Witnesses and groups like YATI share the notion that true Biblical believers disappeared almost immediately after Christ and have only now reappeared. Cultists like this are ignorant of the rich history of the followers of Messiah. You do not follow a faith handed down by God but rather one created by your own opinions and the lusts of those who have gone astray. Call it a heretical sect, call it a cult if you like, its all refers to the same soul destroying reality. In essence, you are your own god and not even the Bible can tell you otherwise. But Yahweh will be your judge. Pray for mercy now if you are wise. “
August 20th, 2008 at 11:27 am
I guess they’ll soon start uploading “How-To” videos of themselves on YouTube, with the “blessings” and all: “Nazarene Yisraelites Gone Wild?!”; “YATI Kama Sutra?!”; “The Nazarene Yisraelite Minyan?!” I expect the “Feast of Tabernacles” to be an absolute carnival for them (they’ll be in tents on some campground/or someone’s backyard somewhere in South Florida). And it will be a full moon then
They condemn anyone who eats pig, yet they behave no better than pigs in mud! YATI now stands for “Your Arms To Immorality”!
P.S. they threw out the brother in whose backyard they camped last year during Feast of Tabernacles. That brother (Zecharyah) got tossed after standing up against the infamous “Sex” book. He too aggravated a back injury at YATI, slipping in puddle of water at the shul. I’m sure the sickos who are left at YATI will aggravate their backs in “different ways”. With having to satisfy all those wives/concubines/slaves, I’m sure their health insurance premiums will soon skyrocket (back problems, heart problems, STDs including HIV, etc). Fodder for any epidemiologist!!!
Kin
August 20th, 2008 at 11:44 am
Kin, Joel would throw out anyone who disagreed with his teaching and actively subverted him as well. You see, you are all just pawns of the secular psychiatric administration. They think all religions are “cults.” And the poor religionists who are using their mantras are like the Jews who worked with the Nazis in WWII. No, nothing new under the sun .
Everyone is a cult but their own religion.
Catholics and protestants are cults too. Cult is a term that is slung around and everyone steps back. In the context of how the term was derived, even Joels trumpet is a “cult” of crazies. Just ask the white house, im sure they will agree.
Yes, everyone is a cult but their own religion.
lol
August 20th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
HMI is in brilliant and entertaining mode today
August 20th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
HMI admin, If Joel would throw out anyone who does not agree with him then how come you and Czarina are still able to spout off your filth here without it being deleated. Also you accuse Aliyah of find fellowship with the wrong people and that she shouldn’t be here well that is rich as you obviously do not agree with anything on this site yet you continue to be spokepeople for the devil. HOW DELUDED YOU ARE? Obviously you don’t understand logic. Wise up before it is too late. If you can’t see the truth obviously you must be brainwashed and also when are you eve going to answer any of my questions. I doubt you ever will because you can’t. And please don’t accuse me of saying things here that I wouldn’t say to your face. I grew up in a country where i was shot at daily and I witnessed my fair share of bombings so your words don’t scare me you fool. Obviously the only thing on your mind 24/7 is sex.
August 20th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Please quote where anyone said that Aaliyah does not belong here. What was said was that the people here will also disappoint and/or hurt her. No where in that is the statement that she does not belong here. Plese quit twisting what is posted.
August 20th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Here is a quote from the cult site I gave above.
Which teaches this;
“A normal religious organization would not have any trouble with you moving to another similar organization as long as you stayed in that same religion. Because it is the belief system that matters, not membership in an organization. For example if you were a Christian then you could move from one church to another and still be a Christian.
However cult leaders will tell you can only be “saved” (or can only be successful) in their organization alone. No other organization has the truth, all others miss the mark. So it is not the belief system that decides your future, but it the belief system AND your membership with that particular group. ”
Does Joel teach that we have to belong to his organization to be saved? Does YATI?
August 20th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
donna:
what’s the point?
August 20th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
Czarina,
Pointing out differences between the YATI cult and Joel!
August 20th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Donna. Catholics consider you anathema. Baptists would frown on your moving to another denomination, they would consider you as “fallen away,” in the very least. They would shake their heads at you and consider you led astray. You think you can just merge from one denomination to another? You are talking about attending churches willy nilly. But just try having two different official church denomination memberships with each one knowing about the other, and unless they are not worth their salt as a denomination, they will each force you to choose “one.”
Peter, if Joel has anything more than just a web presence where far more free debate is allowed, he would not tolerate someone coming into a church or whatever else he led and just start spouting about how wrong he was. He would have such a person removed.
Is this all really so hard for people to get? I sometimes feel like there are kindergartners on this site.
Yati is one of many two house messianic organizations. Each one will protect the interest they have invested just like churches for the practical reasons of the integrity and cohesion of the whole.
So, in all, everyone’s religion but their own is a cult.
August 20th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
HMI,
I follow Jesus not some denomination. I have God’s word for my path, the Bible. I look at the denominations from a biblical view point. Many, but not all denominations are cultic in nature. The called out body of Christ is local and global. By that I mean the body has a local presence and it combines to be a global body all under Jesus.
All the insults will not avail you anything. Your showing your exclusiveness with your petty “character assassinations”.
August 20th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
Who am I assassinating Donna? And Donna so do the hari krishnas say that and the Muslims, and a few other religions. They all follow Jesus they say.
I would venture that you are one of those that thinks all you have to do is say you follow Jesus and that’s the endgame. Joel chided me for having no identifiable community to trace myself back to Yeshua. He should have asked “you,” since you seem to have no root or ground that I can see as testified by your statement - “I follow Jesus not some denomination. I have God’s word for my path, the Bible. ” What this conveys to me is “I, Donna, am the infallible Pope of my own understanding of bible, and no one can tell me anything! Harumph!”
August 20th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Thought the folks here might find this of interest or more scorn as the case may be -
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-3386873,prtpage-1.cms
‘Polygamy is secret to longevity’
21 Aug 2008, 0132 hrs IST,ANI
LONDON: Forget long walks and calorie-controlled diets, the sure shot way to live a longer life is: get a second wife.
That’s the conclusion of a new research, which has suggested that men from polygamous cultures outlive those from monogamous ones.
After accounting for socioeconomic differences, men aged over 60 from 140 countries that practice polygamy to varying degrees lived on average 12% longer than men from 49 mostly monogamous nations, says Virpi Lummaa, an ecologist at the University of Sheffield, UK.
The latest research might solve a long-standing puzzle in human biology: Why do men live so long? This question only makes sense after asking the same for women, who - unlike nearly all other animals - live long past the menopause.
One answer seems to be a phenomenon called the grandmother effect. For every 10 years a woman survives past the menopause, she gains two additional grandchildren, Lummaa says.
It seems that doting on and spoiling grandchildren aids their survival, as well as furthering some of their grandmother’s genes. Men, by contrast, can reproduce well into their 60s and even 70s and 80s, and most researchers assumed this explained their longevity.
But Lummaa and colleague Andy Russell wondered whether other factors explained the long lifespan of men, such as a grandfather effect. To test this possibility, the team analysed church-gathered records for 25,000 Finns from the 18th and 19th centuries.
But the grandfather effect was soon ruled out. Lummaa and Russell next wondered whether the constraints of human physiology explain male longevity. If female survival is the main explanation for male longevity, then monogamous and polygamous men would live for about the same length of time. Instead, it seems that fathering more kids with more wives leads to increased male longevity. Men, then, live long because they’re fertile well into their grey years.
August 20th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
HMI,
Saying that you are in Kindergarden is not “character assassination”? Then what is it? I identify with orthodox Christianity. Not some “new” understanding of scripture. BTW, My husband was raised Catholic. As my head I let him lead my spiritual life.
August 20th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
Donna, which branch of orthodoxy? Eastern? Western, the Papacy? The Coptic? There are a few others, including those that have different canons.
August 20th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
Sorry about the HUB Admin, oversight on my part. I have to e-mail addresses at work that are prefixed with HUB Admin.
August 20th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
HMII,
Did you not read my post? My husband was raised catholic. I let him be the spiritual leader in my home. So, I would be more or less orthodox catholic.
August 20th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
Certain of you leave me shocked and dismayed.
August 20th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Donna, that explains a lot. Thanks. You have a lot more of my respect than Joel since you obviously have a true identifiable community to trace yourself back at least to 325CE. I am still waiting for Joel to tell me what his is.
August 20th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
Gregory,
Are you serious? Can you say Christianity? For a good overview, I would recommend Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. If you want to know what I believe and practice, you can read about the early Church from the time of Christ to around 400 AD. The apostolic Church.
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hades.
The third day He arose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.
Amen.
You on the other hand have no faith community that you can point to throughout Church histiory. Just like the Jehovah’s Witnesses or any other cult. So now it is your turn clown. Where has your community been for the past two thousand years?
August 20th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
On a positive note…
I have so much spare time I really don’t know what to do with it.
I might read Pride and Prejudice for the 4th time. I do love the comedy in it…it so English.
I hadn’t cooked properly for awhile (my favourite past-time), and haven’t had a chance to get kosher meat, so I made a cauliflour and potato indian dish after finally settling somewhere and going grocery shopping. I can see I’m going to be spending an awful lot of time cooking (and eating) besides finding a place of fellowship and fellowshipping.
August 20th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
Hi Aaliyah,
Glad to hear that you are finally settled. I’m prayng for you to be led by the Ruach to the congregation of Adonai’s choice. I’m sure He will lead you to a good place where you can grow and interact with other believers. Put this nightmare behind you and just allow Him lead you to still waters and green pastures.
Shalom,
Kin
August 20th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
After everything that has transpired recently is it any wonder why atheists are the least receptive to faith talk?
Is it any wonder why all brands of christianity and it’s cults (inclusive of all people who allegedly believe in the Messiah who died for our sins whether they call themselves Christian or not) have the worst reputation in the eye’s of unbelievers? Satan is having a field day with the only group of people who have a shread of light, i.e. those who believe in the Messiah whether they are call Him Jesus, Yeshua, Yesu or Yeshu. Believers in Messiah are the most pedantic and confusing bunch of people I have come across. This is not a personal attack on anyone here but a general observation of everything in and out of this blog including me.
Praise Hashem, the creator of heaven and earth, that peope still come to faith…that it’s the Spirit that brings conviction and the love of Hashem that keeps them and NOT the pedantic self-righteous attitude of the pedantic.
August 20th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
Has anyone asked MK why he denied Yahshua the day of his grandson Brit Milah, by taking down all the Nazarene mezzuahs off the doors and and all the small wooden signs that spelled Yahshua? Deny Yashua because of a Orthodox Jew performing the ceremony. His own members saw this and said nothing because they were scared to make MK angry. Go ahead and deny Yahshua and you will see your life take a spin downward. You are right to say that his few members that attend today come out and call the others to let them know what is going on. One member stays because he needs a letter to send to the BYSW group in Colombia to be able to enter Israel. Will not happen because the Israeli Government has been alerted of these groups. Some members send their children to Hebrew schools , the faculty and staff there do not even believe or teach on Yahshua, so why confuse the children. If these are MK’s members do they not have enough faith in MK’s program. Does his wife not know Hebrew well enough to be able to teach it at any level? Or is it that these members want to be accepted as Jews and not Nazarene Israelites. DENIAL, DENIAL, Plain and simple YHWH is no longer the covering at BYSW. Brothers and Sisters continue to pray for this BYSW groups and love them for they do not know what they are doing. There are many who have been decieved by this MK and many that will continue to deny Yahshua. Which path will all you take now?
August 20th, 2008 at 7:22 pm
Joel, did I see that right? You agree to this? “I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church”
Are you a Catholic Joel? You accept the Papal authority in your spiritual affairs?
August 20th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
Gregory,
Lower case “c” genius. Are you honestly this ignorant? No wonder you got sucked up into a cult.
August 20th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
Sarah:
You are say too involved in YATI, I think you want to be back with them but don’t know how to do that and save face. Sarah, I am the member of YATI who is going to send my daughter to Hebrew school when she is old enough. My reason is that at our local Jewish Day there are many different religions represented. Additionally, our daughter tests two years older than her chronological age and the local school system is recommending Jewish Day as the best place for her. Even the state dept of education is attempting to get her into a program for gifted children that will pay for Jewish Day since it is self-paced with individual attention that she needs to thrive.
Funny how different things sound when the truth is actually out there and the words are no longer twisted, isn’t it?
August 20th, 2008 at 8:38 pm
Aaliyah,
I read an email that Simon sent the hubster and I am amazed at the depth of his love for you. Okay, not really, you are very pretty, intelligent, and gifted, so it stands to reason that he would love you greatly. However, dear one, he states he is not married to the other woman. Apparently you got your information wrong. I would look carefully at whomever told you that Simon was married and I would ask myself what there ulterior motive was in telling you something that is not true.
Aaliyah, are you certain you are doing the right thing in abandoning your husband? I pray that you would think again and prayerfully reconsider your choice. The two of you would certainly have some beautiful, intelligent, and talented children who would be great leaders.
I would be happy to study what the Scripture says about patriarchal plural marriage with you. If you are right I will walk away from YATI. If YOU decide that I am correct in my interpretation, then you can explore reconciliation with Simon. What is there to lose in this deal, sweet one?
August 20th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Joel, ad hominem’s aside, if you subscribe to the catholic church, you are inadvertently recognizing the papal authority. That is why you are called a protestant (assuming by your dodge and weave comment that you meant “little” c”). You are only “protesting” the mother church, and hence still part of her. Which is an enigma, because in that context, you are the heretic and the anathema according to the Catholic authorities. Can’t you answer the question Joel? At Least Donna broke down with the truth that she follows her husband and is Catholic. Why can you have the same transparency?
August 20th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
Czarina,
Simon went to the house of his so-called next wife to collect her, but after hearing that he only wanted to use her to spread his “righteous” seed, the women and the family sent him away. He demanded her, until the police came. So that makes two women who are intelligent. Of course he is now begging for the women that he first betrayed. Should have thought of that before he ran after his own selfish lusts. By their fruit you shall know them.
Gregory,
I dodged nothing, for I have nothing to hide. You on the other hand avoided the question that I asked you. But this has been a pattern with you. I usually have to ask something several times before you respond.
So once again, where has your community been for the past two thousand years?
Where is the historical evidence of believers practicing polygamy and calling themselves Israelites anywhere in Church history? Where is the evidence of their connectedness to the apostles? It doesn’t exist.
Regarding your comments however, your ignorance is ever on display. According to Roman Catholic dogma, not everyone who is not a Roman Catholic is a “heretic”. “Schismatic” maybe, but not a heretic. Only those who ascribe to heresy and deny historical orthodoxy are heretics.
I was born a Roman Catholic and am thus still considered Catholic. However, I attend an independent evangelical church. Yet not all non-Catholics are protesters. Ever heard of the Eastern Church? While I recognize the seat of Peter as legitimately tied to the Patriarchate of Rome, as it is impossible to have even a cursory understanding of Church history and deny such, I do not submit to the Pope alone, but rather to the authority of the historical apostolic orthodox faith. I submit to the apostolic faith, once and for all delivered to the saints, not a man. Thus I am a Christian. Plain and simple. Just like the apostles and those whom they taught.
Now answer the questions, if you can.
August 20th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
HMI,
I think you are not reading my posts. I do NOT hold to the pope having any spiritual authority over me. I said “catholic”-little c. Catholic meaning universal, rather then Roman Catholic. My husband was raised Roman Catholic. My husband was Catholic until he read the NT in the greek language while in college. He class room assignment was reading the NT in greek. He then knew there were problems with the Roman Catholic church. Now he calls himself a “recovering catholic”. He still has faith in Jesus, he has just lost faith in manmade institutions. Which is why he holds to a more historical understanding of scripture as outlined by the apostolic fathers and the first few centuries after Jesus. While not authoritative, they do have tremendous insight into the minds of the apostles and how they interpreted the holy scriptures as they were taught by Jesus and moved by the Holy Spirit. The apostolic fathers had a clearer understanding of the mind of God, and thus a superior doctrine then what some claim to be the “truth now”.
Scripture is not of private interpretation. Therefore our faith was laid down by the apostles and continues to this day. The apostles did not lay down the “two house” theory. If they did not expound on it, then it must not be the truth. Which is why he and I both have rejected the teaching.
Because his understanding of greek is much better then mine, when I have a question about the context, I refer to his knowledge and his authority. We do not play favorites when it comes to “traditional christians” to us they are all part of the catholic/universal called out body of Christ. Nor do we allow cult teachings into our home.
Our trust is in God and his ability to keep his word pure. Therefore any private teaching that undermines the sacredness of the scriptures is called into question.
August 20th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
Joel, do you pray to Mary?
Joel, do you believe that Mary was sinless?
Joel, do you pray to saints?
As for your version of the story of what happened with Simon, that version is also false. However, your version of the “truth” is still different from what Aaliyah was saying — she stated that Simon had married the woman last month. All I said was this is not true, and since it is not true perhaps Aaliyah might want to explore the motives of the person who passed on information to her that is not true. It is naughty to stir up strife. It is naughty to tell someone a lie. It is naughty to manipulate someone and cause them pain.
I simply want Aaliyah to see that she is being used by whomever is feeding her false info.
August 20th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
Joel,
If you want answers to your questions, why not just pick up the works by Flavious Josephus and read for yourself?
August 20th, 2008 at 10:32 pm
CZarina,
You say funny. What I have read about this BYSW group on this site and others is sad.
I have never read so much Lashon Hara by this MK’s members on websites.
You tell someone you do not even know to go back to Yati. Do you really know what Yati is all about? Now that is funny.
DENIAL of Yahshua. Now this is serious. And not funny. Any thoughts on this? On emails that I have read sent to MK on this denial, he never responds, he tip toes around the question and replies on everything else. You too do the same.
Would you ever deny Yahshua? Then ask yourself this question CZARINA, why deny Yahshua for a man to perform a religious service? Why would a parent deny the teaching of Yahshua because the State Department says so. Does the Hebrew school teach on Yahshua and how he died for all of us so we can have eternal life? I read mixed signals in what you wrote.
You listen to the State Department, interesting. Be a good citizen of the State of Florida, that is if you reside in Florida and report Title XL111. Chapter741.10 is being violated by BYSW and others. Like someone wrote on this site about the state department closing them down. You never know who visits these sites. Things sound different when the truth is actually written, isn’t it?
August 20th, 2008 at 10:51 pm
Joel I will answer your question, but you first. So you are a backslidden Catholic which is pretty much tantamount to an American Catholic who is in rebellion to the Papacy which is even worse because you attend an independent evangelical church with no root or connection to the history of your mother church??? American Catholics are like that, they think they can defy the Pope and just do pretty much anything they want calling themselves “Christians.” Sorry Joel, doesn’t fly. I KNOW the Papacy would reject your bid for being a Catholic because you are not connected to one of their churches and under or in one of their authorized institutions. Stop playing games Joel. You want to have your cake and eat it too, but it wont work. You say yourself your subject to the “seat of Peter,” yet you are not subject to the the man who sits in that seat? Come on! As for catholic little “c” balderdash. You really think they put that in there for no reason? You really think there is no philosophical connection to the Papacy in making that statement? I just want some honesty Joel.
Donna, now you are backtracking and parroting Joel. You are “not” Catholic now? When will you people get your story straight? I am still waiting then for you to tell me what identifiable community to trace yourself back to Yeshua you belong to? And don’t tell me its Catholic since that is obviously a lie Donna. Stop lying and tell the truth for once please.
August 20th, 2008 at 10:55 pm
Sarah,
It’s better that MK deny Yeshua. He has already made a mockery of Yeshua. At least we’ll have an easier time explaining that MK is not “one of us” if he just openly denies Yeshua and leaves “ministry” altogether! What must unbelievers think when they read the stuff MK spews out? They must think that the Messianic/Hebrew Roots/Christian movement is a sick joke. MK should just be honest with himself and stop being a thorn in the flesh of believers everywhere.
August 20th, 2008 at 11:01 pm
I have never seen MK deny Yahshua. In fact, he used to have a list on his site called Yahshua deity deniers.
August 20th, 2008 at 11:17 pm
HMI,
When will you understand that the church is not about denominations? There is only 1 body of Christ, not 5 not 10 not even 20. The body of Christ is not about exclusiveness, but inclusiveness. If you have the basic understanding of the GOSPEL-which is the GOOD NEWS.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
1Cr 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
Why the need to divide the body into different factions? There is only the local called out body of believers, that blends into the the universal called out body of believers. I am a follower of Christ. Not a follower of the Pope, not a follower of the Greek Orthodox, not a follower of the Coptic Rite. WHY DO YOU NEED TO DIVIDE THE BODY?
I am not lying. I can’t help it if Joel and I sound alike. Maybe it is because we follow the same Spirit? We choose to follow Christ not man.
August 20th, 2008 at 11:21 pm
Sarah,
Rather than LIE, quote where I told anyone to go back to YATI. Please show me where I made such a statement.
My understanding is that YATI is doing just fine without the troublemakers who left. No one in their right minds would want people in a service who are going to do nothing but cause trouble and dissension.
You are no friend of the truth, and all anyone has to do is scroll up a dozen or so posts to see where I told Aaliyah that I don’t recommend that she return to YATI, or even a few posts where I simply tell you that you sound like you miss YATI. Those are both very different from what you state that I wrote. Really, do you think that people are so stupid they can’t see through the poorly crafted half-truths you are tossing about?
While you accuse YATI of lashon hara to justify your own sin, I will say that IF anyone from YATI is indulging in lashon hara that does not make your doing it okay. To quote my sainted mother, “Two wrongs don’t make a right.” In other words, if they were actually gossiping does that make it okay for you to gossip? Perhaps you should set the example and not villify people so that we can all learn from your stellar behavior. For the record, I don’t believe that YATI is committing lashon hara.
And as for Rabbi M and his alleged removal of religious objects from his home, WHICH IS A LIE STRAIGHT FROM THE PIT OF HELL, why would Moshe K reply to an email containing Lashon Hara sent to him by someone who he knows is a troublemaker? Is he your little Rabbi doll who is supposed to dance when a woman congregation member snaps her fingers? I would hope he has the common sense and good manners to simply hit the delete key and ignore the whole gossip filled episode as opposed to giving it credence by defending himself and saying it is a lie. You obviously are primed to believe any negative comment anyone makes about YATI, and the appropriate response to your gossip mongering is to simply ignore it.
I don’t need a Rabbi to perform a religious service and I would not deny Yeshua and his TRUTH (like HIS TRUTH about plural marriage which I have steadfastly defended in this forum). But you already know that as I have not denied the TRUTH in here despite your twisting what I say in a vain attempt to hold me up for ridicule. Your implying that I would deny the Messiah is a poorly crafted debate technique that is based in emotion.
You, however, could use a course on reading comprehension. NO ONE mentioned the State Department. I said that the State Department of Education said that Jewish Day would be the best school for my daughter. Those are entirely different concepts and should not confuse anyone who reads above a fourth or fifth grade level. Personally, I have spent the time to inoculate my children with the TRUTH so that no man, no school, and no religious institution will be able to move them from what they know is the TRUTH.
I also said that the reason I was talking to my state’s Department of Education is that upon review of my daughters most recent testing they have decided that the local public school system will not meet her needs as it has no gifted and talented program for her age group. Therefore they recommended Jewish Day and are looking at paying for it. That is very different from denying the divinity of Yeshua. She is smart enough, and bold enough, to tell the folks at Jewish Day that the Messiah has already come. They are adult enough, and have enough of a sense of humor to be able to handle her correcting them. I certainly do not want my child to be a poor reader, or a cheat at debating. She is brilliant and we can afford the best.
So, once again, the TRUTH really does set you free, doesn’t it Sarah? Once again, stop twisting the truth into such pitiful and transparent lies. I am sorry that your sensibilities are so damaged by the TRUTH of Patriarchal Plural Marriage, but try to discuss the issues without manipulating what has been written.
Also, I did not say I lived in Florida. You are getting the silver medal in jumping to conclusions. Sorry, but Donna has the Gold medal. Perhaps you will get the gold in the nationals next year if you keep practicing.
And just for your education the State Department has nothing to do with religious organizations, they would not care one bit what BYSW is doing or not doing. The mandate of the State Department (actually called the Department of State) is to handle relationships with foreign countries. Last time I checked Florida, BYSW, Miami, et al are not foreign countries.
August 20th, 2008 at 11:31 pm
Donna, Joel called the tune so everyone gets to dance. He challenged me to tell him what identifiable community I belong to that can trace myself back to Yeshua. Now you are sounding like Shirley McClain and making all these nebulous statements, which every church reads whilst rejecting adherents of other organizations. Joel opened the door and now he REFUSES to tell me what identifiable community to trace himself back to Yeshua he is connected with. He wants to claim that he is catholic (a big lie since they would surely reject him, at least the papcy would) but the truth is he HAS NO IDENTIFIABLE COMMUNITY OF FAITH TO TRACE HIMSELF BACK TO YESHUA, AND NEITHER DO YOU DONNA. You have not even told me what church you belong to if any??? Your husband is a backslidden Catholic?
I WILL answer Joels challenge and tell you what identifiable community to trace myself back to Yeshua I BELONG TO.
However, I want Joel and you to stop playing games. Show me yours, and be honest, and I will show you mine. Put UP OR SHUT UP.
August 20th, 2008 at 11:54 pm
Sarah:
Are you interested in vessels and the registration of vessels? The Department of State is not involved in Title XL111. Chapter741.10 as this has to do with registering vessels.
This is just so confusing. Did you just make this up?
August 21st, 2008 at 12:02 am
HMI,
What is the definition of catholic?
Catholic is an adjective derived from the Greek adjective ‘καθολικός’ / ‘katholikos’, meaning “general” or “universal” [1] In the context of Christian ecclesiology it has a rich history and several usages. Roman Catholics use the term “Catholic Church” to refer to the Church, whether Western or Eastern, in full communion with the Bishop of Rome. Protestants use it to refer to the entire body of believers in Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church views catholic as referring to her attempts to spread throughout the whole earth, and her insistence to offer salvation to all people and cultures at all times. Catholic is one of Four Marks of the Church, the other being unity, sanctity, and apostolicity. [2] according to the ancient Nicene Creed: I believe in one, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic
I can’t help it if your not understanding what I am saying. Catholic-small c does not mean the Catholic Church. Go back and re-read my posts. I do not believe in denominations. I believe in the oneness of the church.
August 21st, 2008 at 12:05 am
What is the nicene creed?
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
August 21st, 2008 at 12:09 am
I belong to the universal/catholic Church/called out body of Christ. Can I say it any plainer?
August 21st, 2008 at 1:17 am
CZarina,
So I missed to type the word education in the email. I am not perfect.
You wrote:
“My understanding is that YATI is doing just fine without the troublemakers who left. No one in their right minds would want people in a service who are going to do nothing but cause trouble and dissension. ”
Your understanding? Were you present? Wll the people who were there and the people who left please write in and write what is truth. Thank you.
This is truth:
When you travel to Israel, visit Adonai Roi Congregation and the Dugit Messianic Outreach Center and you will see YHWH’s blessings on Avi and Chaya Mizrachi.
YHWH’s people are truly blessed here in Israel no matter what people hear or read in the United States.
Shalom
August 21st, 2008 at 1:25 am
Sarah,
You aren’t even making sense now. Have a nice forever.
August 21st, 2008 at 2:21 am
Czarina,
The following mails were received from Simon when I asked for food money. I don’t actually need food money but I was trying to make the point that having your multiple wives comes with certain responsibilities of food, water, clothing protection etc.
People…please read below….where Simon Altaf has declared himself to be married to someone he refers to as “Salmah”. This man cannot stand by the vows he made to me 5 years ago “in forsaking all others” and two months ago when swore in YHWH’s holy name that he will not take another wife (I was getting upset because of Moshe Koniuchowski’s influence) and evidently he can’t stand by the vows he made before YHWH “two days ago” which would make it the 21st of July.
He has been sending me e-mails trying to get me back but as far as I’m concerned he is now “married” to another called Salmah. I would double check with your “Rabbi” Czarina as to whether he sent me this e-mail or not.
The so called Vision that Salmah had in Simons words were “that I was inside her”. Either this Salmah girl knows that I will leave and latched onto Simon because of his TV appearances and all the books he’s written and the influence he has (had) or his imagination is doing overtime.
As I said Czarina 2 Tim 3 says “from such turn away” and I have no intention of entertaining the counsel of the wicked (Psalm 1). You want to be polygamous…be polygamous. Just don’t expect other people to be like you and sacrifice their bodily integrity to sustain a high powered job and earn “gobs” of money.
…………………………………………………………………………………………..
Re: money
From: Simon (shimoun63@yahoo.com)
Sent: 23 July 2008 15:37:14
To: AALIYAH ALTAF (faith23_19@hotmail.com)
Two days ago before YHWH we exchanged our vows as He had clearly showed it to her and me. Marriage is before Him not man.
Shalom Shalom (peace peace)
Blessings in Yahushua
L’Chaim B’Yahushua (Life in Yah/YHWH He is salvation)
Rav Simon
http://www.abrahamic-faith.com (Truth unleashed)
—– Original Message —-
From: AALIYAH ALTAF
To: shimoun63@yahoo.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 3:56:25 PM
Subject: RE: money
You’ve already married?
When?
Aaliyah
——————————————————————————–
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 07:50:46 -0700
From: shimoun63@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: money
To: faith23_19@hotmail.com
First you learn to honour the husband then all the other things will be added. If there was no food in the home then you can ask but that is not the case. You should stop listening to others who are not going to be standing by you when you are down. They are fools. I have already married, the woman Salmah who was shown 100% revelation by YHWH to marry me and just as Tehseen challenged me it was zero percent from me. Should be ashamed of himself to challenge the holy one of Israel like this. He is not mocked and neither will he left his servants be abused.
There is plenty of food in the home, go cook and eat, when that runs out then come asking me for more.
Since you have no regard for me as a husband much as a person, reporting me to the whole world won’t help you. I follow and obey YHWH and that means I will stand on one side while the world stands on the other side and laughs at me because my own wife is mocking me and so are the others does not mean I will obey them.
YHWH explicity said to do not bow down to them. I only bow down to Him.
Shalom Shalom (peace peace)
Blessings in Yahushua
L’Chaim B’Yahushua (Life in Yah/YHWH He is salvation)
Rav Simon
http://www.abrahamic-faith.com (Truth unleashed)
August 21st, 2008 at 2:44 am
Sarah,
God bless you! I pray for Israel all the time. You are making sense to me anyway.
Sha’alu Shalom Yerushalayim
August 21st, 2008 at 3:32 am
Czarina,
I think you need to go a little easy on Sarah, It seems to me that English is not her first language.
August 21st, 2008 at 3:33 am
Sarah,
At the conference in July, Rabbi Daniel Randelman gave a speech to say that the gospel is NOT that Yeshua died for our sins but the gospel is to to obey YHWH and His Torah.
Based on my observations alone (notwithstanding that you may have communication of MK denying Yeshua or words to that effect) they haven’t, as far as I know, denied that Yeshua, Jesus, Yesu, Yeshu or whatever people call the Messiah.
They clearly don’t have much of a regard for the Brit Hadasha (NT) which is blatently clear and don’t trust it’s translation. There may well be translation issues but one thing definately stands out in my mind “without love I am like a clanging symbol”. And cults clang alot. They have no problems jeopardising the covenant made to their bride…a truely holy and spiritual union in mind, body and spirit.
It takes only a few weeks for them (Simon), to send text messages saying “ani ahevet otach” (I love you in Hebrew) to a woman he has only recently met (less than two months) and is not his Legal Wife. This is why I don’t trust the I love you’s of a man that can use these words so casually to tickle the ears of women when he is void of the emotion that should accompany them.
I don’t believe taht he actually loves me, I just can’t get the sound of clanging symbols out of my head from the conference…eventhough he claims to.
August 21st, 2008 at 6:16 am
HMI,
You honestly are an idiot. By the way, that is not an Ad Hominem argument. That is only a term used in debates. When I insult you, it is simply a matter of observation. Okay, not that any of this matters to you, I am not a backslidden Catholic. I was merely born Catholic. By being baptised Catholic, one is technically accepted by the Roman Catholic Church as being a Catholic. The word “catholic” is not defined by the Roman Catholic Church but vice versa. The chicken came before the egg. And the Apostles Creed was written before there was a Roman Catholic Church anyway, you moron. I keep saying I’m done with you, yet I keep wasting my time with fools. Gregory, if you ever want to get serious about your faith, I have some books to recommend to you, but until then, I am going to offer you one last chance to respond before I ban you from any further posting. I’ve allowed you to spew your ignorance and perverted world view here long enough. And I am at fault for allowing it. I offered Rabi Thompson a few chances to respond and he wimped out. Now I am offering you one last chance to respond. Take it or leave it. Show me how your faith was practiced by anyone from say the 1st through the 19th century. Show me any early Christian believers who were connected to the Apostles who practiced polygamy or who held to the two house doctrine. Show me any who practiced polygamy. Show me any of the early gentile apostolic churches that called themselves Yisraelites. Your faith does not exist other than in groups that were branded as heretics by the apostles themselves. Today you follow a faith that is made up as it goes. I’ve allowed you to hang around because you have been a useful demonstartion for all to see the mindset and ignorance of folks from this group, but I think you have pretty well fulfilled your purpose at this point.
August 21st, 2008 at 7:57 am
Czarina : “I would ask myself what there ulterior motive was in telling you something that is not true. ”
It’s called lying if it is not true and that “dear one” is also immoral. But you people wouldn’t know the difference.
August 21st, 2008 at 9:06 am
Thankyou Joel, I can see you know your stuff…I wasn’t sure if you actually knew all the details
“Salmah”’s real name is actually something else, Simon was trying to persuade her to change it to Salmah. When I found her she was completely shocked and upset about everything and told me of how he was trying to force her to change her name to “Salmah” and she wanted to change it to something else.
Simon obviously underestimated our ability to trace her and deliberately gave a name that she does not ascribe to herself. The girl told a well known pastor that she is married to someone called Simon, who is an ex-muslim and an engineer. Alarm bells rang and the pastor investigated and soon discovered what was going on…and then I came into the picture.
All this time “Salmah” was told by Simon that clamity will befall her and judgement will befall her if she does not comply and submit to him as a wife does to a husband. The girl dreams alot but she confirmed that she dreamt that there were petals on the floor and an evil presence was hovering around these petals. I asked whether she told Simon that it was evil and she said she told him that a spirit was hovering around. Simon naturally already itching to remarry and obey YATI’s doctrine understood that “Salmah” had been deflowered by him (petals on the floor) and that he is the “spirit” round about her and in his words “inside her”. The girl burst into tears when I showed her all the evidence of his mails describing all this AND MORE.
She said she was confused and scared because he told her she would be judged because he appeared to know the bible, appeared on TV and had written lots of books. Her uncle was very suspicious of him and didn’t like his demeanor and neither did others in the family. They phoned two weeks ago to say they don’t want him contacting their neice or coming to their home.
Simon went to their home, requested to see “Salmah” and was denied permission. The family was afraid to open the door as his demeanor was begining to disturb them. He waited in the car for ages and then finally called the police saying his wife is being held hostage!
The police had a chat with “Salmah” who said she wanted nothing to do with him. Simon proceeded to tell the police that “YHWH told him that she is his wife and that he is to create seed for Israel”. The police obviously thought “who’s YHWH?” How one can be so confused so as too use such terminology with a police officer I don’t know.
I met “Salmah” and the family the next day and showed them the contents of the book. They were so disgusted and shocked that the girl was in tears and her uncle and aunty were visiably upset. I asked her If Simon had sent him a text message saying “ani ahevet otach”…she searched her phone and showed it to me. It was the same one I saw him typing on the plane, when he later sneaked out to the bathroom, and said I had accused him of adultery when he came back from the bathroom and saw how upset I was about his actions.
He never admitted that he was seeing anyone else and infront of three witnesses he used Hashem’s holy name on Monday 14 July to say there was as yet no other woman in his life beside me. Lies, lies and more lies and all in the name of YHWH. And that why I say these people have defiled Hashem’s holy name to the ground.
“Salmah” has since then filed a police report.
This my friends is what cults do…manipulate people and tell them they will be judged and clamity will behold them if they don’t submit to their will.
I am not using “Salmah’s” real name as she is a Pakistani girl and when people hear all about this filth, manipulation and deception, I don’t want her to fall in the eyes of the community because of all this “de-flowering” business. That could ruin her forever and some of us care about other people’s feelings and future. The girl is very young, she needs to put all this behind her, find a good, decent, moral husband and live her life. I am obviously very upset with her too but I have to give people the benefit of the doubt that they have been manipulated and like I said she’s very young. And she and her family obviously want to protect their honor in the community and that’s understandable.
August 21st, 2008 at 9:11 am
Deal with that Cultists!
August 21st, 2008 at 9:34 am
This is frightening. This lady too was a victim of YATI. I am glad she and her family had the good sense to “dump” Simon & YATI. I will pray for her also to bounce back for this horrible experience.
Aaliyah, have you seen Joel’s new update on YATI on the frontpage? I wanted to throw up when I read it. I have a funny feeling YATI will end just like the Waco sect & JonesTown, Guyana. Anyone who is a member of YATI is either on drugs, barking mad, or worse a disciple of satan.
August 21st, 2008 at 10:59 am
Not yet…but I’ll check it out after work tonight.
Yep…they are on their way out. They are not fit to teach anyone especially children.
August 21st, 2008 at 11:12 am
Donna,
May
August 21st, 2008 at 11:48 am
Donna,
Thank you and may YHWH bless you.
I pray for all of you that YHWH bless you. YHWH loves us all no matter what religion or color of skin we are. YHWH knows every heart that has wriiten here.
Shalom.
Sarah
August 21st, 2008 at 12:58 pm
Aaliyah,
Again, I’m sorry for posting info that is personal. While I would almost always try to avoid this, in this case, this needs to be shouted from the rooftops. Stay strong, you are presently at the center of His attention and compassion.
Bless you,
Joel
August 21st, 2008 at 3:57 pm
No need to apologise Joel. Nothing is personal if it serves the greater good.
In fact I think you picked a great time to share that and show that the cultists really don’t know what they are talking about and are themselves mis-informed of Simon’s activities abroad. They just love imparting their pearls of wisdom and making statements they can’t substantiate. They have been proven to be liars, deceivers and manipulators and all this in Hashem’s (God’s) holy name. They should be ashamed of themselves of the anti-testimony they now bear. All the good they ever did has been washed away as people are even begining to question what they did learn and accept from them in an attempt to remove all the leaven from their midst. Perhaps they are on the phone/e-mails right now to verify what they have now learned is true….and they should.
August 23rd, 2008 at 1:25 am
Hello,
If i could request that Aaliyah contact me personally??; you should have my email. Thanks. I am very sorry of the terrible excruciating situation Aaliyah is now going through. This is terrible!!
This group is truly a cult of whitewash trying to cover up sexual perversion that has taken over. I would caution AAliyah to be careful and prayed up when dealing with any of these people.
They have been using “brainwashing” tactics such as:
Producing mental and moral confusion {Cognitive dissonance}
Resist with faith, trust in God…. 1sam.17:37 and Eph. 6:10-18
Producing intimidation and fear
Resist with Hope Gal. 2:20
Producing innner and outer conflict…
resist with prayer, Phil.:4:6-7
Stirring up resentment towards traditional authority, parents, ect….
resist with gratefulness 1 thess. 5:16-18
Manipulation of feelings to produce hatred toward dissenters,…
Resist with God’s Love 1 Cor. 13
Insisting on “open mindedness” to their new beliefs and values…
Resist with discernment Col. 2:8
Indoctrination with new vision and values…
Resist with Conviction , Stand on God’s Word, Romans 12:2
Ridiculing and Humiliating resistors {Zero tolerence for Non-compliance}… Resist with Humility, follow the Good Shepherd, Philip.2:3-8
Insisting on personal cofessions, sharing their feelings with each other daily on Nazerene Isrealite True Name network…..
Resist with Confession to God 1 Jn 1:9
This is from www. crossroad.to under brainwashing….
Thanks for Reading and May God Bless You All.
Yori
August 23rd, 2008 at 9:14 am
Yori,
Can you please email me at AaliyahAltaf@live.co.uk.
I’m afraid I can’t find your e-mail.
Thankyou
August 23rd, 2008 at 2:23 pm
I emailed you at the email listed above on your correspondance, i hope this is ok?? I will resend to the above email later today.
Hope this has not caused any trouble.
Yori
August 23rd, 2008 at 3:08 pm
It is interesting to note that since the truth came out about what happened with “Salmah” that HMI and Czarina seem to have shut up. Yes they can twist scripture but they cannot argue with facts. In the UK there is a law against marriage through deception but unfortunately in this case I am not sure if it would apply as Simon did not do it through legal means as he couldn’t because under the law he was still married to Aaliyah. Over the last few months I have had very little respect for Simon now I have none. I feel sorry for the people who saw him as a good teacher and for the ones in Pakistan who he was helping. I would not be surprised if he has forced them to accept this new teaching or else their support would dry up, but Simon’s support has already probably dried up. I was also wondering if anyone has been able to contact the woman mentioned in an early reply who had a curse put on her because she would not accept polygamy. This is abuse and the husband should be arrested for this. This whole thing remins me of what Paul said of the corinthians that what they where doing was even unheard of among pagans. Another thing that I was wondering is why many of the Messianic leaders and groups have not made any statements about this such as FFOZ or Jewish voice etc in the same way that most Christian groups have made and offical statemnt now condemning the evnts at Lakeland Florida with Todd Bently. My few has always been that people who know about something but don’t do do anything are as guilty a the ones involved in much the same was as the church in Germany in the 1930’s and 40’s was brought to task about their silence about the holcaust. As for HMI Czarina and the rest of the satanic cultist I hope you all repent very soon not only of your immoral lifestyles but also of the harm you have done to those searching for the truth and for the hebraic roots of their faith. More harm in my opinion has been done in 4 months by you than was done in the first 300 years of the Church/believers.
August 23rd, 2008 at 6:34 pm
Hi Yori,
Yes that e-mail address is correct as well.
Please e-mail on the address I’ve given above.
August 24th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
cesar-rina,,,, sounds like a fruit salad. She is a poly wife. And as me myself and the Bible says
“Two ‘wifes’ don’t make a right”
….Marriage that is….
August 25th, 2008 at 7:16 am
Two or more wives brings trouble and strife!
August 26th, 2008 at 4:37 am
Joel, You are still dodging and weaving away from my question. You are not catholic. There is no catholic universal oneness body of Messiah. There are just little fiefdoms called denominations i.e. “little nations.” You have no root or ground, and you certainly don’t understand the first century context of the authentic faith of the apostles and prophets. If you think that what is represented in churchianity today is anything like it, you are just plain deceived.
Now, I will tell you how I trace my faith tradition. I base it on a Sect that Paul the Apostle was labeled a ring leader of -
Acts:24:5: For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:
These Nazarene Sectarians were in existence into the fourth century and are recounted by one of the Roman church fathers, a man at enmity with
the principles that we hold Paul the Apostle taught.
Epiphanius (370 AD) “But these sectarians… did not call themselves Christians-but “Nazarenes,” … However they are simply complete Jews. They use not only the New Testament but the Old Testament as well, as the Jews do… They have no different ideas, but confess everything exactly as the Law proclaims it and in the Jewish fashion– except for their belief in Messiah, if you please! For they acknowledge both the resurrection of the dead and the divine creation of all things, and declare that G-d is one, and that his son is Y’shua the Messiah. They are trained to a nicety in Hebrew. For among them the entire Law, the Prophets, and the… Writings… are read in Hebrew, as they surely are by the Jews. They are different from the Jews, and different from Christians, only in the following. They disagree with Jews because they have come to faith in Messiah; but since they are still fettered by the Law — circumcision, the Sabbath, and the rest– they are not in accord with Christians…they are nothing but Jews…They have the Good News according to Matthew in its entirety in Hebrew. For it is clear that they still preserve this, in the Hebrew alphabet, as it was originally written.” (Epiphanius; Panarion 29)
This SECT was driven from the pages of history during the dark ages because of your “universal” church hunting them and killing them into near extinction. Just read Fox’s Book of Martyrs and I will bet there are lots of examples of your “universal” church killing them and torturing them over the ages. As for their presence in history, they have surfaced here and there during the reformation and enlightenment, and have been restored in these latter days as those who hold to the testimony of Yahshua, and keep the commandments of YHWH as saith Revelations, speaking of the true saints. But counterfeits abound, the ones calling themselves “catholic.”
Now, as for polygamy, I gave you emperor Valentinian, whose dictates swept over all the churches in the west. There are also records of some popes permitting concubinage here and there. Your universal church didn’t even officially ban the practice until the middle ages, and even then christian kings still practiced it well into the latter middle ages.
And yes, calling me an idiot is the last refuge of a small mind that cannot compete on the merits of the debate alone.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:59 am
HMI,
If Aaliyah is hurt it is by the callous actions of MK and her husband. If a man is guilty of Adultery, then it should be made public. This should not be hidden like the world does. God always brings the “hidden sin to public knowledge”.
Which it appears to me that he has at least committed adultery in his heart. Jesus clarified this point and said, “If a man lusts after a women he has committed adultery in his heart.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:04 am
HMI,
Your truly are an idiot. It that the best you can do after many days of scouring the web? Of course there were some early Ebionite / Nazarene sects. If you read the actual text as opposed to a changed version from some goofy website, you would see that these groups renounced the divinity of Christ and referred to Him as an angel as is recorded in the so called Hebrew Gospel of Matthew. Do you think Jesus was an angel Gregory? But the whole point is exactly what I have been trying to say from the beginning. These groups were viewed as heretics by the apostles and bishops. They had no connection to the Church. Your faith is a faith that has no connection to the early Church. Paul may have been called a Nazarene, but names mean nothing. Doctrine does. Paul was connected to the visible Church. The whole point of Ephiphanius work is to expose heretics and sectarians from the Church. Show me one example of any such believers who were accepted by the Apostles. You cannot. You say that they surfaced here and there throughout history but provide no evidence. So truly your faith died out and failed to even exist anywhere in the earth during most of history. You will not find a single example in Fox Book of Martyrs of any such sect being persecuted. Your faith is sham that has been made up by a bunch of confused wannabe Jews who are simply gentiles pretending to be something they are not. Deceiving and being deceived. Yet everything I believe is taught by all of the early Church Fathers who were disciples of the Apostles.
P.S. I deleted your abusive post from MK your perverted and obese cult leader who didn’t have the courage to post it himself. He is a pig and demon possessed.
August 26th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
No Joel, my faith did not die out. Your faith was the instrument of the devil to drive the saints into hiding. Your faith worked on behalf of the beast power to try to wipe out the true SAINTS - Rv:17:6: And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Yahshua: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration…Dan:7:25: And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Your religion was used of YHWH to persecute the true followers of Yahshua, who kept the Torah, and proclaimed the testimony of Yahshua HIS SON. The Nazarenes never denied the deity of Yahshua, and never called him merely an angel. That is all smoke and mirrors on your part. And if you think that the early “church” “bishops” were really legitimate priests of the Renewed Covenant, then you are blind. They were nothing more than a multitude of Baalims and prophets of Baal. No true Prophet or teacher, or Evangelist, or any other man claiming to be from Heaven can deny or in any way nullify even on Yod of the Torah. Paul was the last Apostle of that age that is on the “books” officially, and he said that the great falling away would happen, fulfilling the scriptures I posted above - Acts:20:29,30: For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Augustine, Ignatius, St John Crysostom, and many many others were men of perverse mind who drew away the people “from” the original faith of the Apostle and Prophets TO a syncretized faith called Christianity that we have today. Joel, what you can’t figure out is that you were born “in” the falling away. You have yet to come out of Egypt. Just because you name “jesus” (not even his real name) does not guarantee you are His. The real test is in Revelations, where the true Saints are those who keep the testimony of Yahshua, and keep the commands of YHWH. Joel, you give lip service to Yahshua, but deny him every time you desecrate the seventh day shabbat. You give lip service to Yahshua but every time you put a piece of pork in your mouth willfully and without regard or care for the commandments against it, you DENY HIM. You give lip service to Yahshua, but DENY him when you follow fake holidays in replacement for the true biblical days like Passover, and Sukkoth, and others.
Yes, Joel, repent, for you follow a counterfeit religion that is lip service only, and its called catholic/unviersal, and its called ‘church.”
August 26th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
HMI Admin, if you’re trying to show someone the merits of embracing the Hebrew Roots of the Faith (or at least your twisted version of the Hebrew Roots) you have failed miserably. People like you give those of us who are trying to obey Torah a bad name. I’m sure someone of a Jewish background would not appreciate your ramblings or your using the Tetragrammaton so loosely. MK is already an outcast in the Jewish community, both Messianic and Non-Messianic. The reactions I get when whenever I mention his name are anything but “kosher”. Try not to drink too much more of MK’s “kool-aid”. You’re already experiencing serious adverse effects and complete psychological impairment is imminent. Neither your nor your cult leader speak for the Hebrew Roots movement.
I heard that MK just deleted his entire email list because he is afraid of his teaching going outside of his new “network” of “crazies”. He even acknowledged that his network is “smaller”. What is he afraid of? I quote 1 John 4:18 “There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.” Anyone on the old mailing list should now be relieved - no more YATI/BYSW filth!
August 26th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
Kim, the Jews are in apostasy as well. They deny Yahshua, and then claim to follow Torah, but lie! Also Kim, there are people out there that are intent to destroy the garden of Eden, which is defined as an organization that properly upholds the Patriarchy of men, leadership in the assembly and in the home. These people spend their time trying to weasel in - Jude:1:4: For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of YHWH into lasciviousness, and denying the only MAR-YAH, and our master Yahshua ha Mashiach.
And so it is today, men of Baal i.e “the lord,” who are trying to infiltrate a true hebrew of Hebrews assembly that is going against the grain of the world religious system of feminism and Jezebel pandering. So, like it was in the days of the prophet Elijah, so it is today where all the religious leaders have gone after Baal and Jezebel of Tyre and Sidon, tolerating the wicked feminist system, the true prophets of Elijah have to hide in the hills, as saith the scriptures - 1Kgs:19:18: Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him….Rom:11:4: But what saith the answer of YHWH unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal…
So, those who are trying to uphold the patriarchal system against the grain of the religious world system including all the churches and synagogues who have capitulated to Baal and Jezebel must at this time be careful and circumspect about how they practice their religion. Wisdom says that restricting membership to those truly desirous to the proper order is what is needed in this time and age. So, I really have no problem with Rabbi Moshe restricting. I knew that if a brave soldier of YHWH were to ever throw off the shackles of Jezebel, it would necessitate a type of hiding, and I was proved right.
August 26th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Maybe the reason the ebonite/nazarene movement was wiped out was because it did not find favor in God’s eyes.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
HMI Admin, we are commanded to be conformed to the image of Messiah Yeshua; not to the image of the Patriarchs. Our patriach, Avraham, omitted the fact that Sarah was his wife to the surrounding peoples. As a result they innocently approached her. Is that the example we are to follow, lying about your marriage for your own personal gain? Adonai defended Sarah for her sake and honor, not Avraham’s: The righteous seed of Israel was to come through her. What Avraham did was wrong. Also, Avraham should have objected to Sarah’s suggestion that he lay with and have a child by Hagar. As a result, today, the world is paralyzed by the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. David’s own household had its swords drawn along the “mother” lines. Solomon’s heart was led into idolatry through multiple wives. Even the ruling members Saudi royal family has its “lines drawn in the sand” according to the mother.
And stop knocking the Jews, as Adonai has put a veil over their eyes. If He put the veil therefore He must remove it. If it weren’t for them and their preservation of the Torah, we would know nothing about the Hebrew Roots. They are still the apple of Adonai’s eye. He has and will continue to humiliate the surrounding nations for their sakes. It wasn’t believers that Adonai used to retake the land of Israel, nor recapture the holy city of Jerusalem. I credit them for being willing to live in the land and defend it. Your leader is too scared to even visit Israel.
Adonai does not need anyone to defend or propagate His ways. He can raise the very stones to speak for Him; and they would probably do a better job! Whenever anyone asks me about the Hebrew Roots I share them gently, politely and in love with Scripture, showing them the things that please Adonai. I have never had to denigrate anyone elses practices. They are more appreciative and more willing to embrace the Hebrew Roots when they are shared this way. I have never had to scare anyone. I share and allow the Ruach to lead them into all truth. Adonai does things decently and in order: he is not crass, crude or disrespectful like your cult leader. Just about every sermon I’ve heard from your leader has some mention of or crude joke about sex. Remember the joke about the cow from Minsk? Disgusting!!! How much more will YATI members allow before you recognize that your leader is neither called nor chosen of Adonai?
August 26th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
The last thing I expect when I go into any fellowship is sexual innuendo.
“Lights out, Shabbat is approaching, but no touching in the dark!”
The reason why my house will have an invitation only fellowship is because “guess what everybody! I’m not wearing my Tzit tzit in the hot-tub!”
…are just some examples.
Even Jackson Snyder had the good sense to reject YATI for the sake of not creating stumbling blocks for salvation.
“My heart has been very heavy about this vow taken by my spiritual kin. I have waited in prayer and meditation before I responded to this strange turn of events. I have been wrong before, and the Apostle has given me appropriate direction. This time, however, I realize that, though polygamy may or may not be lawful, it definitely is not expedient in furthering the business of revealing the elect of YHWH. Therefore I stand against the practice of polygamy and regretfully disassociate myself from all practitioners, including those of the B’nai Yahshua Synagogues Worldwide Movement and any other Messianics or Nazoreans that permit its practice.
Dr. Jackson Snyder “
August 26th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
For clarity sake, one’s Hebrew roots are wonderful to embrace, but one must not ignore one’s trunk in the process. Once one egins to feel the need to Christian or Church bash, then this is in my opinion more than mere embracing of one’s roots.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
Kin, Abraham had many other women besides Hagar, and sons with them - Gen:25:6: But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country. And what was my father Abraham’s sin to hide his true relationship with Sarah, but to gain his life? Enoch goes into detail about how the pagan peoples killed each other for their wives so I perfectly understand his actions. You people forget that he had a 100 fold blessing, which is the greatest blessing return that scriptures speak of. You look at those historical accounts with Hellenized tinted glasses, and then judge my Father Abraham when he did absolutely nothing wrong according to Torah, other than try to fulfill something himself that YHWH was intent to do. This is a lack of faith, not a sexual sin, as Hagar was merely one of many concubines that Abraham had.
Dr. Jackson Snyder is taking the safe road no doubt, but safety has never grown the kingdom, so shame on him for not searching this issue out and following the Torah of YHWH in regards to this.
The Jews went to the land not because of their own selves, but because the almighty put forces into play that drew them, and even forced them there. He will do the same with the rest of the tribes, who come out of the dust and present themselves - Ezekiel 37.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
Sorry, I have been out of town.
Aliyah, quit dragging the man’s name around. If there is a police report scan it in and show some proof. Lashon Hara is wrong and you need to go home to your husband, apologize, and submit.
Have a few babies - that might get you to stop thinking of yourself first all of the time.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
HIM Admin wrote with regards to Jackson Snyder:
“so shame on him for not searching this issue out and following the Torah of YHWH in regards to this.”
Jackson Snyder: “My heart has been very heavy about this vow taken by my spiritual kin. I have waited in prayer and meditation before I responded to this strange turn of events.”
The above does not sound like someone “not searching this issue”, he is humble enough to say that he has been wrong in the past but after PRAYER and MEDITATION he has taken the stance he has taken for conscience sake so as to not create stubling blocks for salvation.
I submit, It is you HIM ADMIN, who has not searched this out as you slam down Christians and Christianity, those who know who their messiah is and gave himself so that people don’t perish but have everlasting life. If you would have your way, ranting and raving about christians at very opportunity you get, that kind of hatred and venom will not draw people to you…they will be drawn away. Negativity breeds negativity and makes people miserable so that they continue being miserable and continue ranting and raving and continue alienating people.
If you followed the example of our Messiah Yahshua (Yes aka Jesus!) then you would be oozing with love and not hate and people would enjoy your company and want to hear more about what you have to say…and if you truely feel disheartened with the state of Christendom you would say that with sadness and grief rather than bitterness and resentment and show people that you have some light. You are to be like a city on hill, not hiding in a storefront, with an invitation only membership only to continue ranting and raving.
When the salt looses it’s saltiness it is good for nothing and to be thrown away. In this case I would say, as you proclaim to be the ONLY one’s with the truth, and the ONLY one’s who are truely faithful and the ONLY one’s with this “revelation” and the ONLY ones with salvation, the food is perhaps too salty and good for nothing.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
So you think Christians and Christianity knows about the true first century hebraic centered Messiah? If they did, they would walk like He walked, keeping the seventh day sabbath, keeping the true biblical feast days, refraining from unclean foods, and having a thirst for the scriptures genesis-Malachi. What we have today in Christianity is not representative of the religion the Messiah taught or walked.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
Czarina,
I have posted Simon’s e-mail’s where he has declared that he is married to someone he refers to as Salmah, ex-muslim and 25.
Has he denied that he was seeing this woman and that he took vows with her over the phone? (Yes people I did write over the phone). The girl has also admitted to seeing him for the last few months infront of WITNESSES.
The sordid book is ample evidence of your depraved minds and your corporate vow with regards to polygeny that former YATI Rabbi Jackson Snyder also attests to on his website:
As a result of the Convocation of the BYSW Rabbim held on the historic date of July 12, 2008, the BYSW became “the first and only Nazarene Yisraelite or Messianic organization in history to welcome plural marriage families….” This addition to the BYSW was accomplished by an oath, with several affirming Rabbim listed in the announcement.
Those Rabbim and potential Morim standing and receiving the “Emancipation of Plural Families” did, in fact, become proper polygamists then and there in the name of the Almighty.
The polygamist Rabbim named in the announcement are:
Rab. Jenkins
Rab. Nolan
Rab. Altaf
Rab. Aguilar
Rab. Thompson
Rab. Koniuchowski.
Though not mentioned, the vow was received in Newberry, South Carolina, so Rab. Rendelman might also be among these polygamists. And we further assume that the legal wives of these rabbim are in one accord with the vow.
Polygamy, or Plural Marriage, may be permitted through some readings of the Scriptures. However, it is against the law of Greater Israel as personified by the United States of America (Machir). In addition, our generation has seen devastating judgment fall on religious groups practicing polygamy, including various Latter-day Saints organizations, The Peoples’ Church of Indianapolis / Guyana, The Branch Davidians, and lately, the Jeffs personality cult of the FLDS.
In these notorious examples of polygamist groups, the primary infractions were not related to polygamy at all, but to endangerment of children, child abuse, child sexual abuse, kidnapping, slavery, and a host of even less savory crimes. It is very hard to deny that (at least) the more disreputable polygamist camps were rife with child molesters, child rapists, sociopaths, and misanthropes.
To publicly endorse polygamy (much less to make polygamy one of the pillars of salvation) seems untimely and destructive in the extreme, providing critics with the broadest possible appearance of evil, bringing the blessed name to naught, and leading the BYSW into affiliation with the aforementioned devilish cults by association.
To make matters worse, the announcement I received as a clergy member of B’nai Yahshua contained the following solicitation:
“Many families are looking for the blessing of sharing their Torah walk and intimacy with other Yisraelite single women. We have a few already. If you are a mature woman who has come to understand the great blessings and responsibilities of plural patriarchal marriage and are looking for one of these families that Yahweh has for you, contact (… ). Only respond if the Ruach HaKodesh is leading you into this lifestyle.”
Yes, this is definitely an advertisement for more women to add to those the few they already have.
Our Messiah was not a polygamist – had this practice been part of the rites of salvation, he certainly would have married and married again. Though some Gnostic movements today claim that Messiah was married, they can only point to sketchy legends in polluted apocrypha. The Rabbi Shaul did not marry either; but advised, ‘better to marry than to burn.’ The Nazorean literature that survives informs us that priests (rabbim) of the movement did not marry, except in some cases to rescue orphans and widows from impoverishment.
My heart has been very heavy about this vow taken by my spiritual kin. I have waited in prayer and meditation before I responded to this strange turn of events. I have been wrong before, and the Apostle has given me appropriate direction. This time, however, I realize that, though polygamy may or may not be lawful, it definitely is not expedient in furthering the business of revealing the elect of YHWH. Therefore I stand against the practice of polygamy and regretfully disassociate myself from all practitioners, including those of the B’nai Yahshua Synagogues Worldwide Movement and any other Messianics or Nazoreans that permit its practice.
Dr. Jackson Snyder”
….So pull the wool over someone else’s eyes. The sole reason these two blogs and others exist is because of your cults uncleanliness and immorality. I am not sitting on the otherside of the Atlantic but around Englands greenest hills with my adulterous husband and this young girl he’s been trying to brainwash and has been seeing.
Either your as devious as him and MK or a delusional starry eyed follower. I hope it’s the latter and that you will be blessed with both sense and sensibility in making statements that YOU can’t substantiate.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
HMI Admin, Hebrew Roots is not a salvation issue. Practicing Torah will not save you. What will save you is your faith in Yeshua as Messiah and Visible image of Adonai that man can see and live. This is the foundation of our Salvation. It’s nice to embrace the Hebrew Roots, but it wasn’t Messianics or Nazarene Yisraelites that Adonai used to spread the Gospel for the last 1700 years. While I agree that the Christian faith has been corrupted by pagan practices, so has everything else. Christians too have their place at the marriage Supper of the Lamb. Who then are the great multiture too large for any one to count from every nation, tribe, people and tongue? Are these all Nazarene Yisraelites? No way!
I don’t see Nazarene Yisraelites putting themselves on the missionary frontlines to spread the Gospel in the jungles of South America, or in Africa, Iran, Pakistan, Russia, Former CIS countries, India, China, Southeast Asia, and the South Pacific. It is Christians who are doing this amazing feat. It is the Christians who have spread the knowledge of Messiah Yeshua throughout the world and they too will receive the crown of Salvation. The Hebrew Roots are an “added” bonus. But I don’t consider what you practice to be a bonus; if anything its disgrace.
I hope once you add you multiple wives and concubines, you can adequately keep tabs on all their whereabouts and activities. All it takes is one of your women to have an affair that will bring disease to the rest of you. It really gives a new meaning to “in sickness and in health”. YATI is a nasty lot! May G-d mercy on you all.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
Thanks to blogs and online forums like these, YATI’s emailing activities have been driven underground. If we keep up the pressure by continuing to speak out, maybe the YATI website and radio network will be driven underground also. Will the cult leader (MK) hide these also behind phone verification and password protection? Isn’t he afraid that there are those watching the YATI site and listening to the network who will publicize his perverse teachings? I am sure there are those who have signed up for the new mailing list who are just “moles” for MK’s enemies. Be afraid, be very afraid….
August 26th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Thought I would share this with everyone. YATI matches this to a tee!
How to Identify a Cult
By WAYNE JACKSON
August 28, 2000
In November of 1978, 900 people in Guyana, South America drank a deadly grape drink at the behest of cult figure Jim Jones. Our nation was mortified. In 1993, David Koresh led 76 souls to their deaths in the Waco, Texas compound of the Branch Davidians. Again, a cultist mentality was evident.
Our own brotherhood of the churches of Christ has observed the rise of the so-called “International Church of Christ” (formerly known as the Boston Movement), led by mind-control artist, Kip McKean. Members of this movement are slavishly dominated by the powers-that-be—ultimately by McKean himself.
Though the Bible does not use the word “cult,” the idea is there—at least in seed form. It is represented by the Greek term hairesis, rendered “sect,” which derives from a root meaning “to choose.” W.E. Vine suggests that it hints of a self-willed opinion that rejects the authority of truth, leads to division, and the formation of a “sect” (Expository Dictionary, 389).
Much study has been done in recent years with reference to the development of “cults.” How do these bizarre movements get started? How do cult leaders gain such strong control over their devotees?
Dr. Michael Langone, editor of Cultic Studies Journal, has done considerable research in the matter of “mind-manipulating” movements. While one would not agree with all of Landone’s conclusions, he has, nonetheless, identified some key traits by which cultish movements reveal themselves.
Similarly, Steve Hassan, a former cult member and one of the nation’s leading experts on cult control, has produced a valuable work titled, Releasing the Bonds. Both of these men have helped in identifying the tell-tale signs of cult mentality.
Consider the following:
(1) Cult members are “focused on a living leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment.” The leader is a strong-willed, domineering character who rules the group with tight control. He lets it be known in subtle ways that he is “in charge” of the movement. He makes the plans, he orchestrates the movements of the group or groups (sometimes he exercises his sway over several groups). He dispatches the workers, assigns their chores, etc.
Frequently, they even begin to imitate his mannerisms in terms of voice inflection, language patterns, aggressive attitudes, etc. They become “clones” of their esteemed leader. It is not uncommon that the leader knows of weaknesses or past problems of people with his group. Thus, through subtle intimidation and fear he keeps them under his control.
(2) “Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged,” and there can be pressure or social punishment when there is disagreement with the “boss.” Those who disagree are made to feel as though they are stupid or inept. They are brainwashed with the notion that they do not have the knowledge or experience to question the leader.
Younger people are particularly vulnerable to the leader’s “gift of gab,” and his feigned expertise. No matter how radical the leader becomes in his decisions or actions, the cult members will not criticize him. Even if there should be mild disagreement, no specific expressions are voiced. The members reason that though he may be mistaken in some of his judgments, yet the overall good he accomplishes outweighs any minor flaws.
Members are taught to “rationalize” the conduct of the leader in matters they have always “considered unethical before,” under the guise that the “end justifies the means.”
(3) The leader “is preoccupied with [raising] money.” There is always a need for increasing finances. New projects are ever in the planning. Members are strongly encouraged to greatly sacrifice for the leader’s current “pet” enterprise. There is little pressure let-up; members of the group must be kept “revved up” on a continual basis.
The cult leader always takes the major credit for the movement’s accomplishments. Members become psychologically dependent upon him. “What would we ever do without our leader?,” is the cult mentality.
(4) The cult leader generates within his members “a polarized” mentality. His people evolve an “us-versus-them” mentality. Little-by-little he criticizes other groups with which his members might tend to associate, undermining confidence in them, attempting to discredit anyone who could have influence over his “flock.”
Cult members become suspicious; they imbibe the critical disposition. No one is really as “sound” as “we” are. We are an “elitist” group. And so, seeds of isolationism are sown. The movement leader discourages reading any material, examining any ideas that he does not generate. He seeks to control the inflow of knowledge relative to “his group.”
Kip McKean actually has charged his followers not to read certain books dealing with “mind control,” characterizing any breach of this rule as “sin” (Steve Hassan, Releasing the Bonds, p. xvii). “Jehovah’s Witnesses” generally will not read any literature other than that published by the Watch Tower association.
(5) The cult leader has a clearly defined “anti-authoritarian” disposition. Within the context of the church, for instance, he would have an “anti-elder” attitude. Elders would be recipients of constant critical remarks. No cult leader would affiliate himself with a congregation having elders to whom he must be in submission. “Control” could not be maintained in such an environment.
The cult leader would constantly criticize preachers, particularly those whose knowledge of the Scriptures eclipse his own. Members must be made to feel that he is the “chief authority” in spiritual matters.
(6) Cult members are seen occasionally to take on a new personality. They begin to act differently. They become increasingly antagonistic to family members and long-time friends. They may even boast that, “I am not the old [name] that you used to know; I am a new person now.” And indeed they are. They have become strangers to those who knew them well. They have been transformed into the image of their leader.
© 1997-2008 by Christian Courier Publications. All rights reserved. ISSN: 1559-2235.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:04 am
To Sis. Aaliyah Altaf ( AaliyahAltaf@live.co.uk ) :
Shalom to you from Israel.
We hope you be successful in your anti-polygamist campaign. My husband/I also sent you a direct email. And looking forward to receive responses from you.
Shalom and blessings,
Sis. Hadassah
(your new friend)
p.s.
This is what we put on the subject line from different emails: Sister we (new friends) are supporting your stand against polygamy. And explaining ourselves.
August 27th, 2008 at 3:18 am
It is interesting to note that HMI and Czarina still refuse to answer a direct question and also they don’t seem to be bothered by the reality of what Simon has done. They also don’t seem to care about what “salmah” has been through and the deceiptthat was used to get her. If Polygamy was ok then why did simon not tell “Salmah” that he believed in it and was going to practice it. It also seems that “Salmah” did not even know that Simon was already married. It is great to hear that Yati is imploding and getting smaller. Maybe quite soon it will disappear all together.
August 27th, 2008 at 4:49 am
Peter, Salmah did know he is married. She a muslim convert from a muslim background and he told her that such a lifestyle is permissible. That Hashem (allegedly) has told him that she is to be his wife and she will be under judgement if she doesn’t comply and submit.
What she didn’t know is that I cannot, will not accept this:
1) given the immoral sexual inuendo I have heard and witnessed and confirmed by KIn and many others outside this blog.
2) the reality and full extent of the cults depravity which is evident in the book.
3) and the the manipulative spiritual blackma