The Roman vs The Islamic End Time Paradigm
I did a one hour interview with Pastor Dan Catlin on Messiah’s Branch Radio regarding the Roman versus the Islamic End Time Paradigm. Please share this with our Roman Empire Theorist brothers and sisters. Click here to dowload and listen to the m3u file.
May 25th, 2008 at 8:27 am
FYI.. the file is a “m3u” file.
On my Windows machine, Windows Media Player doesn’t have a codec for it.. but the Apple Quick Time player did.
May 25th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Ten days after Passover, on the 24th day of the 1st month while Daniel was by the Tigris River, he [Daniel] looked up and saw a man clothed in linen, around the man’s waist was a belt of gold, the man’s body resembled yellow jasper, the man’s face had an appearance like lightning, the man’s eyes were blazing, the man’s arms and legs gleamed of polished bronze, the man’s voice thundered forth like the sound of a large crowd.
Then the man said to Daniel, Daniel 10:12-14 - “”…. “Don’t be afraid, Daniel, for from the very first day you applied your mind to understand and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard. I have come in response to your words. However, the prince of the kingdom of Persia was opposing me for twenty-one days. But Michael, one of the leading princes, came to help me, because I was left there with the kings of Persia. Now I have come to help you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision pertains to future days.””"
The man came to help Daniel understand what will happen to Daniel’s people in the latter days, many days in the future.
After helping Daniel regain his strength, the man continues explaining to Daniel what will happen to his people in the latter days.
Daniel 10:20-21 - “”….Do you know why I have come to you? Now I am about to return to engage in battle with the prince of Persia. When I go, the prince of Greece is coming.”"”
The man was currently engaged battling with the spiritual prince of Persia, and after that the spiritual prince of Greece is coming.
First Persia, then Greece = not Rome.
Shalom Jehovah
Folks, seek things above where there is no such thing as Greek or Jew, only Christ in all. Praise the Lord, praise the Lord,,,, Theon and Theos.
Colossians 3:1-11 ~ Therefore, if you have been raised with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Keep thinking about things above, not things on the earth, for you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ (who is your life) appears, then you too will be revealed in glory with him. So put to death whatever in your nature belongs to the earth: sexual immorality, impurity, shameful passion, evil desire, and greed which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience. You also lived your lives in this way at one time, when you used to live among them. But now, put off all such things as anger, rage, malice, slander, abusive language from your mouth. Do not lie to one another since you have put off the old man with its practices and have been clothed with the new man that is being renewed in knowledge according to the image of the one who created it. Here there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all and in all.
May 25th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Joel,
I am one of those people who was taught that the Antichrist would rise from the EU and thanks to your book about the Antichrist I have come to see that the EU theory not only does not correlate to scripture but also makes no sense.
I think you have an important message to send - not only showing the actions being perpetrated by Islam but also telling of the scripture.
Would you be willing to post an occasional (quarterly/monthly/weekly/etc…) 15/30 minute audio clip of your own discussing various aspects of Prophesy with corresponding scriptural references?
(That would be the icing on the cake!)
P.S. - (I have also purchased a few additional copies of your book and distributed to friends and family (along with link to your website) - I think you have a great website and I view it daily)
Thanks,
Will
May 25th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Will,
Thanks much. I will be releasing some DVD’s here in about a month. Not only will you get to hear me, but see me as well. Whoa!
I’ll think about the audio clips. Things have been overwhelmingly busy lately. But that may be a good idea. Thanks for helping to spread the message.
Bless you, Joel
May 25th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Joel,
Your interview was great! I had never looked at the passage in Numbers in that light before.Thanks! God is good! He is opening the eyes of his people one person at a time!
May 25th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
I want a DVD!
May 25th, 2008 at 9:13 pm
I want the new book !
May 27th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
What is the passage in numbers Joel is talking about?
May 27th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
Hello Joel,
I listened to your interview and enjoyed it very much. However, I am having a hard time with your correlating of Ezekiel 38 & 39 with Revelation 19 and your disassociation of Ezekiel 38 & 39 with Revelation 20:7-10. It seems to me that the war of Gog and Magog soley occurs after the millennium when I read both texts naturally. What Scripture do you have that demonstrates that these passages are two different battles of Gog and Magog (one before the millennium and one after)? Thanks!
May 27th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Paul, Numbers 24.
Regarding the Gog and Magog passage in Ezekiel 38, 39, it is clearly the same event as Armageddon, but I believe that it also foreshadows the final Battle at the end of the Millenium. The passage about Armageddon in Rev is founded on Ezekiel 38,39. However after the Millenium there speaks of another battle that it refers to as Gog and Magog. This is a separate and distinct battle from Armageddon. Ezekiel 38, 39 essentially portrays these two battles as if they are one and the same. This is a common OT prophetic poetic characteristic. Ie., the blending of two distant yet related events as if they are one event.
I know that was brief, but I hope it clarifies.
May 27th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
But how do we know that they are two similar but distinct events? I am familiar with thousands of years of time passing between one verse like when Jesus read in the temple did not finish Isaiah 61 (Luke 4). but why should we do that with these passages?
I am not the same Paul as the one who ask you about Numbers?
Thanks for taking the time I appreciate it.
May 27th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
“the blending of two distant yet related events as if they are one event.”
I am seeing that as i write my own commentary on revelation, it makes it quite confusing and difficult to separate the two events.
May 27th, 2008 at 8:25 pm
Ezekiel presents us with one seeming event. Revelation makes it claer that it is two phases. Scripture brings clarity to Scripture.
May 27th, 2008 at 9:20 pm
That is if you equate Revelation 19 with Ezekiel 38 &39 as Armageddon. I enjoyed your book and I do not think that the Antichrist system is Rome but instead a Muslim empire. The one thing that I am having a hard time lining up is the Gog and Magog passages. They still seems to be one event but when I look at the Middle East and I see how it is set up with all the nations of Ezekiel 38 & 39 aligned against Israel it makes me think that the fulfillment of that passage is at the door. I am only seeking to understand. I went to a dispensational pre trib Bible college that taught that Rome would be revived. I experienced good godly men who would pour the scripture through their grid of theology instead of the word of God on certain pet issues like the pre trib rapture and tongues. I only want to make sure that I have a scriptural basis for saying that they are two different events. I had been preaching that they are two different events but lately as I have looked at the passages again I have had questions.
May 28th, 2008 at 6:17 am
Pastor Paul,
Forgive me for only responding to a portion of your comments. First, I assure you that my position is not due to any emotional connection to the RCC, but is truly based on my very thorough examination of the Scriptures. A few brief points. Our understanding of Mystery Babylon must extend beyond Rev 17,18 as these passages and the very concept of Mystery Babylon is founded upon very large swatches of previous OT passages found in Jeremiah and Isaiah. When these prophets speak of the destruction of Babylon, they describe a complete and instant destruction that literal Babylon never experienced. As such we must at the least see some fulfillment of these passages in the last Babylon. These passages are filled with geographical markers. They mention particular cities that are in Arabia. They speak of an entity that is destroyed on the Red Sea and inhabited by Arabs. Neither literal Babylon nor Rome fulfill these geographical descriptions. As such, my opinion is that John’s mind would have been jogged to these OT passages and related his prophecies to these far more than would the “city on seven hills” motif that many assume John would immediately understand. I also am very well aware that the Church Fathers and the entire History of the Church has seen Rome as the fourth Beast of Daniel, the Fourth Empire of Iron and the Beast of Revelation. I think they were wrong. I rarely deviate from historical positions, but in this case, because it is end time related, these beliefs are not dogma, they are simply opinions. In other words, it is not something that any Church council ever held to etc. It is simply the consensus down through history. And understandably so. There is much to say along these lines, but as you pointed out, Rome is not both the Beast and The Harlot as well. You have turned away from the Roman Beast, and you are half way there.
Lastly, I would disagree with you that the eremon (Desert) in Rev should be taken only symbolically. It is both symbolic and literal.
Consider the following passages, as they are intended to be contrasted:
And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.
Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns.
The Mountain is literal. It is simply Mount Zion. If it is merely symbolic, what does mountain refer to here?
But most importantly, even if we only look to Rev 17,18, the Women is clearly both a financial and a religious entity. “And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore…” (Revelation 18:11) She is not merely a religious entity. Rome cannot be made to fit these descriptions. Efforts to do so require that one appeal to the broad spectrum of manifestations of Rome down through history, many of which she no longer even fulfills.
While Rome was certainly viewed by the early Church as Babylon (She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark. 14Greet one another with a kiss of love. Peace to all of you who are in Christ.) But at the time, Rome was the capitol of the reigning Beast Empire. No longer. Today the capitol of the reigning Beast Empire is Mecca / Saudi Arabia. This is the financial and religious womb that is corrupting the earth religiously and financially through spreading of the Antichrist religion and of course the Oil black mail. etc. And indeed the radical Muslim nations do indeed desire to destroy her and many times Muslims have attacked Mecca in the past, etc. Anyway, sorry so chaotic in my response and I probably left out several issues.
Bless you, Joel
May 28th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
Yes, the early church did consider Rome the new “Babylon.” And many early church fathers considered Rome one of the beasts and probably the final beast. However, they anticipated a very soon return of Christ and that the AC was alive and well in the 1st century. Rome was their beast/AC. However, all this happened before the rise of Islam. One of the interesting things I’ve found is that with the arrival of Muhammad and Muslims, many in the Church changed their paradigm to an Islamic Antichrist and Islam as the religion of the beast. This held sway in many regions and schools of thought until frankly the Protestant Reformation, when attacking the Papacy and the Roman Church became en vogue (understandably so in some cases, however, as a Catholic, my personal belief is the baby was thrown out with the bath water). Nevertheless, with the Protestant Reformation the European/RCC-beast paradigm became back in style in these Protestant movements. It has not been until today in many ways that the West (with Joel’s and others efforts) is rediscovering the Islamic-beast paradigm again……